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[Hoo-doo]

But why do you find it so hard to believe that the Wii U would be able to handle PS4/720 multiplats? Will it run it just as good? No but it's very possible it will be able to handle the games unlike the Wii.

Nothing is impossible, obviously.
But if some of the next Xbox and Playstation's specs are to be believed it's like expecting the big blockbuster current gen titles (Red Dead Redemption, GTA, Halo, Bioshock, Assassin's Creed, Crysis, etcetera) to come to the Wii.
They didn't, even though it could have been technically achievable.

 

[Ryoku]

Nothing is impossible, obviously.
But if some of the next Xbox and Playstation's specs are to be believed it's like expecting the big blockbuster current gen titles (Red Dead Redemption, GTA, Halo, Bioshock, Assassin's Creed, Crysis, etcetera) to come to the Wii.

No. Not at all.

They didn't, even though it could have been technically achievable.

They didn't because it required, essentially, a new game.

 

[Orayn]

Nothing is impossible, obviously.
But if some of the next Xbox and Playstation's specs are to be believed it's like expecting the big blockbuster current gen titles (Red Dead Redemption, GTA, Halo, Bioshock, Assassin's Creed, Crysis, etcetera) to come to the Wii.
They didn't, even though it could have been technically achievable.

Not really. Putting any of those games on the Wii would have involved a fundamental reworking of the game, since the Wii's hardware was based on such old standards.

With the Wii U, you're looking at something more akin to porting Far Cry, Half-Life 2, and Doom 3 to the original Xbox since it has programmable shaders and a pretty modern API that's comparable to DirectX and OpenGL as used on other consoles.

 

[lwilliams3]

Because it's not true. Unless you think most ps4/720 games will be graphical duds.

Or that the budget will limit them, and that they will consider Wii U ports for the sake of expanding the audience.

If you try to compare the situation with the Wii, you really can't. The Wii didn't get many ports; most were completely new games due to the Wii not being to handing modern GPU shaders.

 

[Meelow]

It's important to bear in mind that even at 100mhz the Wii U GPU would crush the one in the Wii and Gamecube. One thing that keeps me from agreeing with those who call this system a repeat of the Wii is that doing so underestimates just how slow and outdated the Wii's GPU was. Ignoring the lack of compatibility with any modern shader models, if the GPU in the next Xbox was to have a similar computational advantage over the Wii U as the 360 did over the Wii it would weigh in in the 6 to 10TF range.

You seem to be very enthusiastic about this topic, but I suggest you do some reading and research in your spare time to more fully enhance your understanding and enjoyment when discussing it.

Some people really do believe it will be a repeat of last gen, I'm shocked because the Xbox 360 was like 20x more powerful then the Wii, if the Xbox 720 had 6TF-10TF Well...The people that can afford that console will be happy.

I do research, still getting up to the curb.

Nothing is impossible, obviously.
But if some of the next Xbox and Playstation's specs are to be believed it's like expecting the big blockbuster current gen titles (Red Dead Redemption, GTA, Halo, Bioshock, Assassin's Creed, Crysis, etcetera) to come to the Wii.
They didn't, even though it could have been technically achievable.

What Orayn said.

 

[H_Prestige]

Or that the budget will limit them, and that they will consider Wii U ports for the sake of expanding the audience.

If you try to compare the situation with the Wii, you really can't. The Wii didn't get many ports; most were completely new games due to the Wii not being to handing modern GPU shaders.

ipad also has modern gpu shaders

 

[Ryoku]

ipad also has modern gpu shaders

Yeah, I wonder why high budget games didn't make it onto a platform whose games are extremely low budget, and sell for ~$0.99-$5.00, without proper controls, and an audience that is not really into the deeper game experience seen on home consoles.

 

[LeleSocho]

Completely new, like what? Alot of today's core gameplay can be recreated on Gamecube level hardware.

It's maybe only open world games that truly benefit but then you have to consider the genre still isn't perfected yet. So it's like improvements ontop of improvements instead of a massive shift in how we play.

Even stuff like physics and AI aren't massive game changers. A building crumbling in 500 different ways isn't always going to make a FPS a better game.

I don't know they have to think about it not me... but even if they make games that fully uses Move or Kinect they will not be replicable on wiiu...
I'm talking about games that uses that kind of thing as the main core of gameplay not old games genre with those features... and even if i was talking about those should i remind you how Half-Life 2 is considered one of the best game ever also thanks to its advanced (for the time) physics... all of those things are not possible on weaker or different hardware and yet some people continue to say that only Nintendo consoles are capable to change gameplay.

I can give you a very concrete example on how power can make evolution in gameplay... Dead Rising, it handles a shit-ton of characters at the same time and it is its main mechanics to gameplay, when you try to port it to something less powerful you have... well... Dead Rising Wii.

 

[H_Prestige]

Yeah, I wonder why high budget games didn't make it onto a platform whose games are extremely low budget, and sell for ~$0.99-$5.00, without proper controls, and an audience that is not really into the deeper games seen on home consoles.

So its technically possible to port AAA next gen games to ipad? Or AAA ps360 games?

 

[Ryoku]

So its technically possible to port AAA next gen games to ipad? Or AAA ps360 games?

Possibly. But it'd have to be severely downgraded, as the iPad does not have any sort of brute force to render [relatively] high-quality assets in real-time at a stable frame-rate (I'm sure you know this). In short, no, not really, but it's not the same problem as Wii had.

 

[teh_pwn]

So its technically possible to port AAA next gen games to ipad? Or AAA ps360 games?

Sure, because new hardware means new, high performance design. Right. RIGHT?!

 

[lwilliams3]

ipad also has modern gpu shaders

Interface issues aside, iPads, Tablets, iphones, etc are not really closed systems. They are more comparable to PCs in that regard. They are also not considered to be "gaming consoles." At least not yet.

 

[abasm]

I think that it will be a bit easier for developers to port games between the next generation of platforms than it was between the Wii and its contemporaries. Since the raw specs probably won't be comparable, we'll probably see most AAA games tend towards the cutting edge hardware, while downloadable and lower budget games will more or less look and run the same on everything. Keep in mind the growing divide between what is considered AAA and "everywhere" games that are designed to run on everything from iPhones to PCs. Unlike the Wii, which didn't receive many ports of such games, the Wii U seems both more open and more capable.

Fewer and fewer developers will be capable of pushing the visual envelope with each hardware leap. With the generational shakeout, more developers will be forced to "move to mobile" or face extinction.

 

[netBuff]

Interface issues aside, iPads, Tablets, iphones, etc are not really closed systems. They are more comparable to PCs in that regard. They are also not considered to be "gaming consoles." At least not yet.

How is iOS not a closed system? Developers have to pay a fee to get listed in the App Store, every app is reviewed by hand at Apple before appearing on the store and programs can be rejected if developers don't follow the App Review Guidelines.

 

[Instro]

So its technically possible to port AAA next gen games to ipad? Or AAA ps360 games?

Well PS360 games are possible with heavy downgrades. ID had that RAGE demo up and running on the iphone with a bootleg version of ID tech 5 behind it. Of course no one will bother with such an effort.

 

[JordanN]

I don't know they have to think about it not me...but even if they make games that fully uses Move or Kinect they will not be replicable on wiiu...
I'm talking about games that uses that kind of thing as the main core of gameplay not old games genre with those features... and even if i was talking about those should i remind you how Half-Life 2 is considered one of the best game ever also thanks to its advanced (for the time) physics... all of those things are not possible on weaker or different hardware and yet some people continue to say that only Nintendo consoles are capable to change gameplay.

I can give you a very concrete example on how power can make evolution in gameplay... Dead Rising, it handles a shit-ton of characters at the same time and it is its main mechanics to gameplay, when you try to port it to something less powerful you have... well... Dead Rising Wii.

Edit:

The physics in HL2 are nice but I wouldn't say the game itself really needed it to progress. Especially for what appears to be a FPS at heart.

Both Dead Rising's still play the same. Having differing zombie counts only changes certain attainable goals.

Also, to not turn this into a drawn out argument, I'm not saying more horsepower never changes gameplay. But it doesn't break enough new ground to really distinguish itself from its last gen peers (since Gamecube). And as a consequence, the difference gets smaller and smaller each gen.

You can still kill swarms of zombies, you can still solve physics based puzzles, newer hardware does so more efficiently.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

Nothing is impossible, obviously.
But if some of the next Xbox and Playstation's specs are to be believed it's like expecting the big blockbuster current gen titles (Red Dead Redemption, GTA, Halo, Bioshock, Assassin's Creed, Crysis, etcetera) to come to the Wii.
They didn't, even though it could have been technically achievable.

Thats because Devs unfortunately don't have Nintendo's best interests at heart.

 

[Pie and Beans]

The physics in HL2 are nice but I wouldn't say the game itself really needed it to progress. Especially for what appears to be a FPS at heart.

I don't think you could possibly have played Half Life 2. Perhaps you were too busy trying to count its polygons to pay attention to what was happening on screen, I don't know..

 

[Durante]

But why do you find it so hard to believe that the Wii U would be able to handle PS4/720 multiplats? Will it run it just as good? No but it's very possible it will be able to handle the games unlike the Wii.

Because there will be a huge performance gap.

It's really that simple.

 

[JordanN]

I don't think you could possibly have played Half Life 2. Perhaps you were too busy trying to count its polygons to pay attention to what was happening on screen, I don't know..

I actually played a demo of it before. I was given a gravity gun and I remember removing some log from a tunnel. I can't remember what the rest of the level was like or if I even used the gun after that. I wouldn't exactly call "moving objects" groundbreaking.

I could already do that in Wind Waker and there was physics too.

 

[NBtoaster]

I actually played a demo of it before. I was given a gravity gun and I remember removing some log from a tunnel. I can't remember what the rest of the level was like or if I even used the gun after that. I wouldn't exactly call "moving objects" groundbreaking.

I could actually do that in Wind Waker and there was physics too.

There are several levels and sections of levels built around the gravity gun. The game would be completely different without it.

It's not just moving objects, it's essential for puzzles and very useful in general combat.

 

[lwilliams3]

How is iOS not a closed system? Developers have to pay a fee to get listed in the App Store, every app is reviewed by hand at Apple before appearing on the store and programs can be rejected if developers don't follow the App Review Guidelines.

I meant that the hardware all have different specs. Just by looking at Apple iPad series, the iPad, iPad2/iPad mini, the new iPad, and iPad4 all have different specs. All of them are still sub-360/PS3 in specs in various degrees, so the iPad series still has a bit to go before the majority of the audience has iPad models that can properly handle AAA ports.

And then there is the interface issue.

 

[LeleSocho]

Edit:

The physics in HL2 are nice but I wouldn't say the game itself really needed it to progress. Especially for what appears to be a FPS at heart.

Both Dead Rising's still play the same. Having differing zombie counts only changes certain attainable goals.

Also, to not turn this into a drawn out argument, I'm not saying more horsepower never changes gameplay. But it doesn't break enough new ground to really distinguish itself from its last gen peers (since Gamecube). And as a consequence, the difference gets smaller and smaller each gen.

You can still kill swarms of zombies, you can still solve physics based puzzles, newer hardware does so more efficiently.

It still play the same but the final experience is vastly different, on the wii DR is a terrible game that no one should play, on the 360 instead is a great, fun and enjoyable game... yet the gameplay is more or less the same so what makes it better on 360? Well not (only) the looks of it but the power of the machine that drastically change how i play the game... on the wii is a desert where you wander around without doing nothing, on the 360 instead you have like 10 times the things to do...

It's true HL2 is still an fps in the end but would the game had less value without its physics? of course, if you see in any review of the game is pointed out this quality.

but still... even if you still think that power do not matter too much they have a lot of other ways to make games that are completely new in gameplay and not replicable on the wiiu so i would say to stop saying that the wiiu is the only way to go if you want new kind of gameplay because it's absolutely false...

Comes to mind also that Kinect sucks a lot of CPU power from 360 so without that power you can't make a game with that technology...

 

[Dreamwriter]

Because there will be a huge performance gap.

It's really that simple.

Huge performance gap means nothing - do you really think games like StarWars 1313 will *require* top of the line computers to even play the PC version? No. At launch did Crysis just plain not run on any PC at all? No, you just had to turn down the settings. System performance doesn't make games impossible to port. The reason the Wii didn't get hardly any 360/PS3 ports had nothing to do with system performance, but the fact that it used an entirely different graphics core and control scheme, meaning any port would have to be rewritten from scratch. The Wii U does not have this issue, you can program its graphics in the exact same way you can program a PC game's graphics, even a top of the line PC game's graphics, it's all the same in the core.

 

[JordanN]

but still... even if you still think that power do not matter too much they have a lot of other ways to make games that are completely new in gameplay and not replicable on the wiiu so i would say to stop saying that the wiiu is the only way to go if you want new kind of gameplay because it's absolutely false...

I never said this.

 

[wsippel]

Because there will be a huge performance gap.

It's really that simple.

Yeah, but it'll still be way smaller than last gen, and the feature sets are much closer. I certainly don't expect every game to be ported, but it should be a lot easier.

 

[H_Prestige]

Huge performance gap means nothing - do you really think games like StarWars 1313 will *require* top of the line computers to even play the PC version? No. At launch did Crysis just plain not run on any PC at all? No, you just had to turn down the settings. System performance doesn't make games impossible to port. The reason the Wii didn't get hardly any 360/PS3 ports had nothing to do with system performance, but the fact that it used an entirely different graphics core and control scheme, meaning any port would have to be rewritten from scratch. The Wii U does not have this issue, you can program its graphics in the exact same way you can program a PC game's graphics, even a top of the line PC game's graphics, it's all the same in the core.

Yeah, it's not like Durante knows what the hell he's talking about when it comes to hardware.

I mean, do you guys also think ps360 could get toned down versions of next gen games as well? They've got CPU's and GPU's and RAM and all that good stuff, too.

 

[Orayn]

Durango/Orbis ports will be difficult and unlikely because of the performance gap, whereas a features gap made them impossible most of the time on Wii. It's not much comfort, but it's a slightly less bad situation.

I mean, do you guys also think ps360 could get toned down versions of next gen games as well? They've got CPU's and GPU's and RAM and all that good stuff, too.

For a while, they probably will. Destiny and Battlefield 4 are all but confirmed as cross-generation games, and there will most likely be others.

 

[Jeffa]

I think I've changed my mind guys. A triple core processor running at 1.2 ghz compares favorably to 7 year old technology. This is very good news. And seeing as how the only problem anyone has with the CPU is the clock speed and not the actual architecture from nineteen ninety nine, which is just before the turn of the century, it should also compare very favorably to the Durango and Orbis' CPU, seeing as how it will be clocked below 2 ghz and also feature GPGPU integration just like the Wii U. I am very happy.

If only Nintendo designed a CPU without any specific predecessor like Xenon. Then it could be hyped as new technology no matter how poor/archaic the design.

 

[goomba]

Any confirmed pikmin count ?

 

[Quinton McLeod]

Durango/Orbis ports will be difficult and unlikely because of the performance gap, whereas a features gap made them impossible most of the time on Wii. It's not much comfort, but it's a slightly less bad situation.

And this is what you've concluded after retrieving information on the Wii U's official specs, right?

Stop being silly.

 

[lwilliams3]

Yeah, it's not like Durante knows what the hell he's talking about when it comes to hardware.

I mean, do you guys also think ps360 could get toned down versions of next gen games as well? They've got CPU's and GPU's and RAM and all that good stuff, too.

You know, Dreamwriter is not naive on this specific subject neither.

 

[LeleSocho]

I never said this.

Well you said that it's not a big deal losing some graphic on the ports assuming that all of the power will go to graphics because they will be simple as "tic tac toe" and "pacman"
We can argue if you really intended to say that the games will be as simple as those but you surely thought that all the power goes to graphics.

 

[NBtoaster]

https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/274856397915697152

If you want more evidence that MHz isn't everything, a little birdie points out that Durango (Xbox 720) is specc'ed to have a 1.6GHz CPU.

hmm

 

[JordanN]

Well you said that it's not a big deal losing some graphic on the ports assuming that all of the power will go to graphics because they will be simple as "tic tac toe" and "pacman"
We can argue if you really intended to say that the games will be as simple as those but you surely thought that all the power goes to graphics.

That doesn't explain where you pulled the "WiiU only delivers new gameplay" accusation.

And the Pac-Man and Tic Tac Toe jokes were meant to poke fun at the obscenity surrounding games being gimped where even simple games like those would supposedly be destroyed or greatly differ from whatever PS4/720 version because of a few small cosmetic changes that too, have little barring on the overall product.

 

[Bidermaier]

Yeah, but it'll still be way smaller than last gen, and the feature sets are much closer.

I think we are approaching some sort of barrier.
The difference between WiiU XBox361 is going to be obvious. The next next gen tech Demos will be amazing.
BUT
It is going to be hard for devs to find reasons to go next next gen (remember at least it is expected to be 2x more expensive )
Publishers wont push next gen no one wants to be the next midway thq etc
There will be a lot of transgen multiplatform games. A bit like when there was ps2/360 games but a LOT more.
I expect that in that time of confusion Nintendo might well unleash the graphic ninjas and show the world what the little WiiU is able to do.

 

[Orayn]

And this is what you've concluded after retrieving information on the Wii U's official specs, right?

Stop being silly.

I've concluded it based on all the specs we know suggesting that it's somewhat more capable than the HD twins, but with its own unique hurdles for devs to overcome.

 

[FacelessSamurai]

I stopped being a Nintendo fanboy since the Gamecube era as that is when I went multiplatform and I haven't looked back since, owning every gaming system since then as it is the best way to go.

I think that Wii U would be able to hande PS4/XBOX 720 games if the developers take the time to make downgraded ports. I guess the "real" next-gen systems would be kind of like playing your games in high settings on the pc, with the Wii U version being the medium settings version, or maybe even closer to low settings in some situations. People would still get the same gaming experience and fully enjoy the games, just with a different graphical fidelity.

So imo, I think it's mostly a case of whether or not developers want to put in the effort or just skip the system. Looking at the Wii U launch it looks like support is good so far, developers just need to grasp how the system works. I really enjoy my Wii U right now and hope it gets as much support as possible.

Also, I think people will be thoroughly disappointed with next-gen games, as I think next-gen is already here, on the PC. When I see what is possible on an SLI equipped system (and I know it might not be as optimized as it can be on a console) , I honestly can't see how much better consoles can push better graphics, especially because of the price issue (500-600$ max price). I know next-gen engines will help a bit, but I feel sorry for people who think we haven't seen anything yet, because the PC master race has seen it all already!

 

[Log4Girlz]

If only Nintendo designed a CPU without any specific predecessor like Xenon. Then it could be hyped as new technology no matter how poor/archaic the design.

Do we ignore that it is based on the gamecube cpu as well?

 

[x3sphere]

Huge performance gap means nothing - do you really think games like StarWars 1313 will *require* top of the line computers to even play the PC version? No. At launch did Crysis just plain not run on any PC at all? No, you just had to turn down the settings. System performance doesn't make games impossible to port. The reason the Wii didn't get hardly any 360/PS3 ports had nothing to do with system performance, but the fact that it used an entirely different graphics core and control scheme, meaning any port would have to be rewritten from scratch. The Wii U does not have this issue, you can program its graphics in the exact same way you can program a PC game's graphics, even a top of the line PC game's graphics, it's all the same in the core.

I don't really get what you are saying. Crysis was definitely too much for some systems to handle at the time of release even at minimum settings. Similarly, if you try to run any recent games on what was a common PC say 5-6 years ago its going to have a really hard time even at low.

 

[Glorified G]

Also, I think people will be thoroughly disappointed with next-gen games, as I think next-gen is already here, on the PC. When I see what is possible on an SLI equipped system (and I know it might not be as optimized as it can be on a console) , I honestly can't see how much better consoles can push better graphics, especially because of the price issue (500-600$ max price). I know next-gen engines will help a bit, but I feel sorry for people who think we haven't seen anything yet, because the PC master race has seen it all already!

Most PC games are made with 2005 hardware in mind. What you're mostly seeing is hi res 360/ps3 games not next gen. I'm still surprised people are confused with this concept. Consoles dictate PC development. When the next gen consoles hit the baseline will be raised from 2005 hardware to 2011-2013 hardware(or whatever they kind of hardware they use in orbis/durango)

 

[JohnnySasaki86]

https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/274856397915697152



hmm

I dont understand why so many people are paying so much attention to the clock speed. Isn't a bigger problem thats its only a 3 core single thread? Doesn't Xenon have SMT with 2 threads per core? Another wards even if they were the same clock, wouldn't the Wii U CPU have to do twice as much(or be twice as efficient) to compete with its 3 threads vs the 6 threads in Xenon?

 

[LeleSocho]

That doesn't explain where you pulled the "WiiU only delivers new gameplay" accusation.

It wasn't directed to you (or at least not only since you totally gave me the impression that you thought like this) but to people who say that gimped ports from other console don't really matter since less power doesn't change the way you experience the game/gameplay as wiiu games would do.

 

[shinra-bansho]

So essentially people are still ignoring that (negative) reaction isn't purely based on the clockspeed of Espresso and deriding such reaction; but are simultaneously trying to downplay the potential Durango CPU based on a clockspeed report (while ignoring that it will have more and multithreaded cores (and more RAM, and a better GPU).

Yeah, but it'll still be way smaller than last gen, and the feature sets are much closer. I certainly don't expect every game to be ported, but it should be a lot easier.

Platform decisions are presumably based on both technical possibility and on business factors. The thing is people tend to ignore that technical differences impact business factors i.e. more resources required, more opportunity-cost, less likely return on investment.

Why does it sound like you don't want Wii U to get multiplats? Wouldn't you want everyone to enjoy the games?

I would imagine most don't want a lowest common denominator that isn't showing a tradtional technological generational leap dictating the state of games for the next 5 years.

 

[Apophis2036]

10x.

PS4 / 720 will be 10x the power of WiiU ?.

Current rumours / leaks put them at 6-7x PS360 and WiiU is roughly 2x 360 so your looking at 5x at most, no where near even 10x or a 20x (fantasy land) graphical leap.

PS4 / 720 =

Lower clocked but more efficient CPU's, much more Ram (take 1GB off for the OS / social aspects), much, much more powerful GPU's compared to PS360.

 

[M3d10n]

https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/274856397915697152



hmm

Oh boy, the collective meltdowns would be so strong it would change Earth's orbit if that turns to be true.

 

[Orayn]

I dont understand why so many people are paying so much attention to the clock speed. Isn't a bigger problem thats its only a 3 core single thread? Doesn't Xenon have SMT with 2 threads per core? Another wards even if they were the same clock, wouldn't the Wii U CPU have to do twice as much(or be twice as efficient) to compete with its 3 threads vs the 6 threads in Xenon?

It's not quite as simple as threads multiplied by work done, but what we've heard from Marcan suggests that the "overall performance" isn't that far from Xenon's. For what it's worth, the Wii U has a DSP while many 360 games dedicate an en entire thread to audio.

Oh boy, the collective meltdowns would be so strong it would change Earth's orbit if that turns to be true.

I don't see it causing any meltdowns, just providing more convincing (for some) example of clock speed not equaling power.

 

[shinra-bansho]

It's not quite as simple as threads multiplied by work done, but what we've heard from Marcan suggests that the "overall performance" isn't that far from Xenon's. For what it's worth, the Wii U has a DSP while many 360 games dedicate an en entire thread to audio.

Marcan's quote is actually that clock-for-clock Espresso has better instructions-per-clock than Xenon, iirc.

That Espresso "comes up about the same" as Xenon is actually from the user "Espresso" on B3D I believe.

 

[Quinton McLeod]

I've concluded it based on all the specs we know suggesting that it's somewhat more capable than the HD twins, but with its own unique hurdles for devs to overcome.

But not based on any particular benchmark. If we're going to compare the consoles to each other like we would PC components, then why not run a benchmark... Oh wait... We can't do that.

So, is it somewhat more capable than the HD twins? We don't know. We don't even know what the GPU inside the system is, let alone know the performance on the Wii U itself.

 

[Asherdude]

https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/274856397915697152



hmm

I can totally believe that. After that billion dollar RROD fiasco, super fast and potentially hot processors would be a big no-no.