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Dark Souls II (PS3/360/PC) - Edge Magazine details (Prepare yourself)
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Though we have very little information, I am going to keep my expectations low for this one. Which is a bit sad as I loved Dark Souls and consider Demon's Souls the "game of the generation". I do not like many of the statements they are making, on several levels. They of course can make many changes to the formula without ruining the game, but I am not confident at all that they will make the right decissions.
Lost Fragment
Obsessed with 4chan
Being nervous about the implications of change and lowering your expectations is one thing, but it's ridiculous at this juncture to be all like "WELP HERE COMES DUDEBRO SOULS RIP DARK SOULS."
But it's the other side of ridiculous to deny that FromSoft and Namco are very explicitly saying that they're making significant changes to the direction of the series. And much like ENB said in his video, a lot of Dark Souls fans love the game so much that there's very little space to go up, but a hell of a lot of space to drop.
Shit, it could be even better than the first Dark Souls though. Time will tell. But it should be pretty plain and understandable why a lot of people are nervous.
jim-jam bongs
Member
seriously though, how terrible at playing video games are some of you people?
"covenants are poorly explained". you speak to the npc at firelink like three times and he asks you to join his covenant so he'll sell you miracles. you just learned that covenants exist, they are usually entered by speaking with an npc and there are covenant specific rewards and benefits. oh and the dialogue says something about abandoning any other covenants you've entered so you even learn that there must be more, and that joining on isn't permanent.
"kindling/hollowing/humanity is poorly explained". a message tells you that you can level up and kindle at bonfires the instant you reach firelink. anyone with the slightest bit of common-sense goes to the bonfire then tries to "kindle", is told they can't kindle while hollow. so they select "reverse hollowing", and are told they have no humanity. then they go to their inventory and use the humanity they got for killing the first boss, sit down again and try to kindle at which point they will be told they can't kindle that flame further without learning how.
what do you know? you just learned what humanity does, what hollowing is and what kindling does, and it took all of 30 seconds and the deductive reasoning of a three year old.
"but it's all trial and error!" well aside from the fact that's bullshit, who gives a fuck if there are places in the game which require a bit of experimentation? it's a video game for crying out loud, if you make a mistake it's not the end of the world. sure dark souls might mess up your unbroken streak of 100% completion runs but if that's why you're playing games then might I recommend stamp collecting instead?
"but but world tendencies!" even from software realised that they'd done a poor job of explaining that and removed it from dark souls. why you people keep bringing it up when it's actually an example of correctly identifying and removing an obscure gameplay mechanic is beyond me, but if you think it supports your argument then it indirectly explains why you had such a hard time following dark souls.
I'm still waiting for someone to actually identify anything you need to reach and defeat the last boss which you can't learn easily without going outside the game.
"covenants are poorly explained". you speak to the npc at firelink like three times and he asks you to join his covenant so he'll sell you miracles. you just learned that covenants exist, they are usually entered by speaking with an npc and there are covenant specific rewards and benefits. oh and the dialogue says something about abandoning any other covenants you've entered so you even learn that there must be more, and that joining on isn't permanent.
"kindling/hollowing/humanity is poorly explained". a message tells you that you can level up and kindle at bonfires the instant you reach firelink. anyone with the slightest bit of common-sense goes to the bonfire then tries to "kindle", is told they can't kindle while hollow. so they select "reverse hollowing", and are told they have no humanity. then they go to their inventory and use the humanity they got for killing the first boss, sit down again and try to kindle at which point they will be told they can't kindle that flame further without learning how.
what do you know? you just learned what humanity does, what hollowing is and what kindling does, and it took all of 30 seconds and the deductive reasoning of a three year old.
"but it's all trial and error!" well aside from the fact that's bullshit, who gives a fuck if there are places in the game which require a bit of experimentation? it's a video game for crying out loud, if you make a mistake it's not the end of the world. sure dark souls might mess up your unbroken streak of 100% completion runs but if that's why you're playing games then might I recommend stamp collecting instead?
"but but world tendencies!" even from software realised that they'd done a poor job of explaining that and removed it from dark souls. why you people keep bringing it up when it's actually an example of correctly identifying and removing an obscure gameplay mechanic is beyond me, but if you think it supports your argument then it indirectly explains why you had such a hard time following dark souls.
I'm still waiting for someone to actually identify anything you need to reach and defeat the last boss which you can't learn easily without going outside the game.
Parakeetman
No one wants a throne you've been sitting on!
THIS
One of my favourite part of DS and DS (muahaha) has been discovering detailed information on the lore, NPCs, items etc away from the game on the game's wiki. It's got that old school charm of learning about the game from multiple sources.
Hopefully, they aren't going to corrupt that aspect.
Hopefully, they aren't going to corrupt that aspect.
Andrea23
Member
H_Prestige
Banned
Well fucking said. Especially the bolded.
Everyone demanding a more "accessible" Souls really pisses me off. Go play your stupid ass assassin's creed or whatever you babies.
They will. The director has said multiple times that is one of his main objectives.
Covenants are too obscure. You join one first and then you have to figure out how it works and what its benefits are. That information should come beforehand.
Yep.
H_Prestige
Banned
Why?
None of that stuff is necessary to beat the game. And it's not like it takes long to figure out on your own as you get invaded by black phantoms, spirits of vengeance, and forestbros. Or that some of the summon signs you see are gold just like that Solaire chap.
Kyleripman
Member
I agree with most of your points, but I don't think that anyone has trouble figuring out that covenants exist, or how to join them. It's in the way they work. For example, don't you have to give the spider woman's covenant like 30 humanity to open a shortcut which lets you complete Solaire's path? That's pretty obscure. And it's not like the spider woman NPC tells you about it, because she doesn't even speak English. You have to trade a random item to a random invisible bird to get a ring that lets you talk to her, and even then I don't know if she tells you.
Just things like that. Entering into covenants and obtaining certain benefits from them is easily figured out if you are halfway decent at exploring, but there are undeniably aspects of it that are needlessly complicated. Do you need those things to beat the game? Of course not...but more people might enjoy them if they were slightly less vague.
I think it's okay to keep things like that in Dark Souls II. Getting the shortcut is not the primary purpose of the Chaos Servant covenant, but a hidden perk. A brief, clear description of the main function of each covenant before joining would be a slight improvement, but there's no need to spell it all out explicitly.
I don't get why this is a bad thing, the fact that it's in the game and that the community discovered it is really fucking awesome if you ask me.
We need more games with obscure hidden secrets like this, not more straight-forward, less subtle ones.
H_Prestige
Banned
Are games not allowed to have secrets anymore? Goddamn.
It was never told how to get Vincent and Yuffie in FFVII, or hinted at. Or that there were even secret characters at all. Is that also bad game design?
It was never told how to get Vincent and Yuffie in FFVII, or hinted at. Or that there were even secret characters at all. Is that also bad game design?
I think that's a pretty poor example. Saving Solaire is not necessary to complete the game, why does that need to be explained at all? Other than seeing him dejected about not finding his personal Sun yet again and summoning him for the final boss fight, it makes no difference if you save him. It's exactly the kind of side bit of hidden lore that is great for a hungry community.
The only I think is weird and sparse is the Gravelord covenant, but again it's not need to complete the game at all.
Kyleripman
Member
Was it discovered by the community, though? Isn't all that stuff in the guide that released when the game did?
And yeah, I'm not saying any of it is a BAD thing. I'm just saying that it's an example of something that could be explained (or even hinted at) without dumbing down the game too much, which seems to be the primary fear of the sequel.
Update: it seems that this phantomatic "real time grab" is actually prerendered. Sorry, my fault :'D.
The quote from Edge:
Verbs like "tantalising" put alongside, "not quite" there yet, leaves me scratching my head.
Perhaps this is the sort of visual fidelity that was witnessed by them: http://youtu.be/pVpTWylg1Rw?t=2m2s
Update: it seems that this phantomatic "real time grab" is actually prerendered. Sorry, my fault :'D.
The quote from Edge:
Here is what Jstevenson of Insomniac said on how Blur studio work.
so Blur Studio take the low models from the devs and re-create them completely.
they will look similar but don't expect anything even close to the quality of the what was in the trailer,Edge staff were just in exciting-mode me think.
jim-jam bongs
Member
the trouble is, and I say this while at least partly agreeing with you, I don't think that covenants exist solely to give players stuff. they exist so that the online aspect of the game involves roleplay, it's more of a side effect that there are rewards for leveling up in one. and I think they're pretty well designed from the perspective that the rewards they give you suit the roleplay they encourage.
except the daughter of chaos. honestly that shit is just weird, and the roleplay so non-specific, that I think they just never finished work on the faction.
Kyleripman
Member
That's a really good point.
Back to Dark Souls 2, I do hope that Silent Comedy gets to have their music in one of the commercials.
Marilyn Manson, Linkin Park or bust.
AzureSkies
Member
Neon Knights by Black Sabbath
Considering it's probably the closest we're going to get to a song about Dark Souls:
"Circles and rings, dragons and kings
Weaving a charm and a spell
Blessed by the night, holy and bright
Called by the toll of the bell!"
"Phantom figures free forever
Out of shadows, shining ever-bright
Neon Knights!"
Choas Covenant get's you Chaos pyro spells - also Servant roster is just a leaderboard for who is the most devout member - do wish Sunbro's had a similar one to see who has had the jolliest co-operation
SatelliteOfLove
Member
We're at the point of every single one of these "debates" where the opposition to the obstinance in the Souls design feign ignorance of widely documented information about these games' history matching the willful ignorance of widely documented information about the game's play.
Now that there's what may be blood in the water, the feeding frenzy is just starting.
I've asked this dozens of times before and none of those uttering this line has ever ever come close to a coherant, convincing responce: Or?
Kyleripman
Member
Haha wow, most of that is pretty applicable.
I used to listen to this old Hollenthon cd called "With Vilest of Worms to Dwell" while playing Demon's Souls, but I prefer the real soundtrack of Dark.
That's an amazing amount of information to infer from three or four lines of dialogue, and a notice that you've joined a covenant, whose benefits you won't know at that point. The next covenant you'll come across as a player is the Warriors of Sunlight, who used to have a 50 faith requirement to join - but there is nothing on the location, or the broken statue, itself to indicate this. Some of the covenants were obfuscated to the point of non-functionality; stuff like the Gravelords weren't usable for the first few months of the game, and even now there are many who've never had their worlds infected or have had black phantoms spawn. They are poorly explained - the requirements are cryptic, the rewards even more so - and even worse, most of them are useless and thus go ignored.
Also it's fair to say, that those logic assumptions you can make about covenants, based on tidbits of dialogues, are not really something you can usually apply in videogames as, usually, things that would appear as very logical assumptions, have absolutely no foundation in the game design of a game.
So pretending from the player this stretch in interpretation and logic, is not entirely fair, i think.
But i also think that some covenants SHOULD have remained secrets, because finding them was part of the fun.
So pretending from the player this stretch in interpretation and logic, is not entirely fair, i think.
But i also think that some covenants SHOULD have remained secrets, because finding them was part of the fun.
If it's 25% complete now, I would guess by E3 2013 it should maybe be closer to half or so. Something then would be neat. I would hope whenever they do present it, they can go into more detail about many of the ambiguous points people are scared about, like action and whatnot.
Sanctuary
Member
reading..and then:
are you fucking serious!?
Uh, there's no way. Unless they are talking about the PC specific version (which is always what games are shown on at E3 and other big gaming conventions). They didn't just suddenly unlock some super secret, hidden functionality of the 360/PS3.
Isn't that how it always is? Early previews are overly hyperbolic, and then your average forum goer follows suit over time with one issue or another.
Castor Krieg
Banned
Where do I go to find other covenants? Why are they not mentioned in automatic pop-up message I get, what if I do not talk to anyone? Also, what are the benefits? How much +dmg do I get?
What is this Humanity thing? How do I use it? Why should it give me points? Are these the same points game wants? But I have Humanity, why does the game keep telling me I don't? I picked that dark thing a few minutes ago!
But I do not want to die! I want to see all of the game without much trouble! Why is this game so difficult? Why do I keep dying? Why are the enemies respawning?
Average gamer is a moron. However as many have pointed out those gamers will not play DS no matter what they do, the franchise has a stigma of being difficult.
I swear to God, I sometimes do not understand a fucking word of what you are writing, and I just got 112 in TOEFL.
Not sure how much of this is just you arguing vs how much explanation you expect in the game. I don't think covenants existing or joining them needs any more explanation (you simply talk to NPCs) and I do like that there's covenants that are hidden and ones that are quite easy to access. That's not really a game mechanic though, just some hidden things (though Gravelord is kind of lol)
Also about your humanity thing, people forge that consumable humanity item has a description. Just pay attention to the GUI and have some trial/error with item usage. I can see the point of your post vs. the post you were quoting but people are going kind of overboard with this discussion.
Sanctuary
Member
Don't have time to play such a hardcore game more than once. Because you know, casual gamers are hardcore gamers too! I wonder how many people purchased either of the Souls games without actually knowing what to expect, and simply caught a ride with the hype train. I know plenty of people who haven't finished the first game. Some haven't even finished half of it, because it's "too hard".
Regardless, I do think that either From believed that much would be discovered and conveyed through forums, or they just didn't care. The game was meant to be replayed, but I doubt anyone would replay it enough times to figure out all of the various weapon requirements (from Demon's) or some of the more obtuse instances with Dark Souls. I think that's some of the appeal though.
One way or another, there's a strong case to be made that having a director/creator with a strong conviction and vision at the head of the table is a good thing for preserving a design and approach against corporate/commercial dilution and compromise. For the most part. Versus having a couple of handpicked replacements willing to bend over at the drop of a dime and essentially put in place to do exactly that, change the direction and approaches according to what will sell and market better.
We've seen this old story countless times throughout product history, especially entertainment and the arts. It's not a case of "personality cult", it's a case of who is the better fit for retaining and deepening the Souls experience according to the core of the Souls' doctrine. My bet is Miyazaki was the best bet.
H_Prestige
Banned
The problem with the covenants is that some have no function (daughter of chaos, princess covenant) or are poorly implemented (gravelord, dragon), not that they're not explained via pop up messages in the game. I mean, are the forest, darkwraith, and darkmoon covenants that obscure? The person you talk to to join makes it pretty obvious what you will be doing, and the orbs/rings you get also come with a description telling you what they do.
Last thing I want is to join the darkmoon and have a pop up message saying "You're now part of the darkmoon club, use this blue orb to invade lower level players bro!". That type of stuff belongs in lesser games, not Souls.
Awesome post. If you don't mind, I will use this next time a friend bothers me about Dark Souls being too <something something>.
People beat the game and say "but I did it without knowing like half of what was going on!"
Great. Big surprise: there's no way you can understand the game 100% on your first playthrough. If it interests you so much, why not go back and play it again?
Oh sorry, I forgot. You've got to move onto the next big blockbuster in the pile, finish that one as soon as possible, and pass more unreasonable judgement.
If it didn't grab your attention enough to play it a second time and actually try to figure out more stuff on your own, are you really someone who's in a position to decide what's best for a sequel?
This is the worst: "the game forces you to use a Wiki!"
Pure crime in word-form. There are many games that force you to do plenty of things, but Dark Souls certainly isn't one of them, least of all using a Wiki. If you absolutely felt you had to use a Wiki to try and enjoy the game, and still didn't enjoy that process, then perhaps the series isn't for you? Again, if this is the case, you have no right to make demands for the sequel.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Missed the new thread.
Not wild about what I'm hearing, but I'm gonna enjoy watching these threads evolve and get crazy over the next year.
Something tells me the development of this game will make an interesting article 5 years from now.
Not wild about what I'm hearing, but I'm gonna enjoy watching these threads evolve and get crazy over the next year.
Something tells me the development of this game will make an interesting article 5 years from now.
Indeed, maybe even a good metaphor for gaming in general.
Fives years later, the ambiguity destroyed, their freedom of design gone, the last remaining members of FROM submitted to mainstream and commercial authority in Tokyo, Japan. The great dark fantasy RPG maker of exploration, depth and difficulty was gone, and the great gaming frontier as a whole was soon to pass into history.
Jake Tower
Banned
December 2012: Dark Souls II declared such a big disaster that we'll all remember how terrible it turned out to be in 2017.
They also did this on purpose imo, to encourage players to use the messaging system. You have to admit, though some of the covenants are hard as hell to find. Take the darkmoon and darkwraiths covenant, not exactly easy to find those.
Well what can I say, I am a romantic and I do enjoy the sentimental tunes. xD
RockTurtle
Member
so who found the dragon covenant without a guide?
I did only because I was so paranoid about Mimics that I accidentally hit the wall behind the chest that leads to the Great Hollow.
HungOverOnATues
Member
Who knew how the gravelord covenant worked without having to look it up?