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CDProjekt's Witcher 3 team looking for Open World experience, more

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Sentenza

Member
subversus said:
Meanwhile most cinematic games flopped these years and "gamey" games with open world and more focus on mechanics sold more (Red Dead Redemption - more than 10 million, Skyrim - more than 10 million, Minecraft - more than 10 million, Ass Creed - more than 10 million, other games like Far Cry 3 seem to do well too). Spec Ops failed, Absolution performed poorly and other cinematic linear games fail to break 6-7 million copies sold (even Uncharted and Gears) which is pathetic. The popularity of cinematic experiences is a myth. These games are bred by developers which like cinematic experiences and marketing departments which thing that people suppose to like them because they are shiny.
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I strongly agree with what you are saying here, but it doesn't matter.
As many myths in this industry ("No one likes turn based games", "DRM are very useful to prevent piracy", "If we come out with our own version of Steam we can easily compete with them on even ground and that is going to make us more money") it's a hard one to eradicate from publishers' minds.
 
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Almighty

Member
subversus said:
QTEs were so unpopular that they had to add an option to one button them. Also I don't see any proof that cinematic games move huge numbers, I see the opposite actually. ME3 sold better but it had more marketing than the previous two games and a larger install base. It didn't sell THAT better - just in line with more marketing expenses and larger install base.

Meanwhile most cinematic games flopped these years and "gamey" games with open world and more focus on mechanics sold more (Red Dead Redemption - more than 10 million, Skyrim - more than 10 million, Minecraft - more than 10 million, Ass Creed - more than 10 million, other games like Far Cry 3 seem to do well too). Spec Ops failed, Absolution performed poorly, Max Payne underperfomed and other cinematic linear games fail to break 6-7 million copies sold (even Uncharted and the last Gears) which is pathetic. The popularity of cinematic experiences is a myth. These games are bred by developers which like cinematic experiences and marketing departments which thing that people suppose to like them because they are shiny.

Anyway CD Project can't afford MORE cinematic experiences. I mean if mocapping horses is too expensive for them than their focus will be elsewhere most likely.
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I will coincide that QTE are unlikely in Witcher 3, but I still think they are a good example of CDProjekt trying to make the Witcher 2 more cinematic.

How should I put this as far as I am concerned all the games you listed with the exception of Minecraft, to a much lesser extent Skyrim, and maybe Farcry as I haven't played it do go for cinematic moments. Now to make it clear I consider it a cinematic moment when a game takes control or limits control from you the player so you can witness some scene just as the developers want you to. It doesn't have to be CGI it can use the game engine. Using Assassins Creed as an example Assassins Creed Brotherhood Spoiler:
The very beginning when your fortress is more or less exploding around you
.

Now yes if you take it too far like Max Payne(the only game on your poor selling list I played) did you get punished, but I do think that people do want those moments. They just don't want the game to only be those moments. Here is the problem or at least my worry. In Assassin's Creed it's fine because the story in those game is linear meaning that you can't really miss them. In a good RPG(like the Witcher 2 and the Witcher) the story should allow branching and my fear is that in order to afford bigger and better cinematic moments they will cut back on that. I am not saying that will take it to the extreme and make a game where you have to sit though unskippable cut scenes(ala Max Payne) for what seems most of the game, but they don't have too. All they have to do is say want to make you see this great castle siege they made that they give you no way to avoid it or to afford it they decide to not flesh out some town as much as they would of wanted to. Maybe even pull a Bioware and only give you the illusion of choice.

As i said when you spend money make these cool looking set pieces it is going to become harder and harder giving the player the chance to bypass all that work/money.

As for not being able to afford it. I am not taking about CDProjekt matching say Max Payne in production value punch for punch here. I don't see why not being able to go all out like the major player do with mocaps and what not means they can't try to make the game more cinematic. Also while I really doubt CDProjekt will mismanage the budget this badly, but it wouldn't be the first time a developer/publisher made a game they really couldn't afford.
 
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subversus

I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
Well, when TW2 was conceived the trend for cinematic games was upwards. Now it's pretty clear that players value player's agenda more than pretty cinematics (not that they'd object against good cutscenes) and open world games seem to sell more. I think that CD Projekt won't do separate chapters like they did with TW2 but the world will be more alive and reactive in non-scripted way because this thing is hot now.
 
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subversus

I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
Lingitiz said:
No. That's about as likely as Valve going console exclusive. If anything it will be a PC first launch with next gen to follow.
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it will be multiplat this time. They talked about that during their investor's meeting.

eot said:
I'm pretty sure that was in there to begin with and not something they added due to complaints.
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may be you are right, it was a long time ago.
 
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Lingitiz

Member
subversus said:
it will be multiplat this time. They talked about that during their investor's meeting.
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I wonder if the resources are really there though. They struggled just to get another team working on the EE Xbox content, and never even got to a PS3 version. That would have to have expanded greatly to be working on a multiplat Witcher and Cyberpunk.
 
Sentenza

Sentenza

Member
What's up with people hoping/asking for multiplatform games to become exclusives on this forum?
Seriously now...
 
H

Hindle

Banned
What I'm thinking they'll do is keep the hubs from The Witcher 2, but have them connected to a large hub, think Zelda.

I'd be happy with that.
 
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subversus

I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
I wish I'd played Zelda, people reference it all the time. Is it like Mass Effect 1?
 
S

Snuggles

erotic butter maelstrom
I would like to see more open ended exploration in The Witcher. I loved the extra breathing room in the Lakeside and Flotsam chapters, it's nice to get off the beaten path and do witcher stuff like hunt and gather herbs. Expanding on that could be a good thing.
 
A

Almighty

Member
subversus said:
Well, when TW2 was conceived the trend for cinematic games was upwards. Now it's pretty clear that players value player's agenda more than pretty cinematics (not that they'd object against good cutscenes) and open world games seem to sell more. I think that CD Projekt won't do separate chapters like they did with TW2 but the world will be more alive and reactive in non-scripted way because this thing is hot now.
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No one will be happier to eat crow on this then me. I am only going by my gut so i haven't written CDProjekt off yet. It would be silly to do that with no more info about their games then they are working on them.

Its just that the Witcher 2 and on top of that their new console/pc parity plans sent up red flags for me. I will be honest I can't think of an RPG developer with maybe the exception of Obsidian(though that just might be the fanboy in me blinding me) that did that and didn't end up becoming much much worse(from my perspective) for it.
 
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subversus

I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
Snuggler said:
it's nice to get off the beaten bath and do witcher stuff like hunt and gather herbs.
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jbrody.jpg
 
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subversus

I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
this thread reminded me that I still haven't finished my third playthrough. But I'll wait for mods, I think. Need more monsters contracts.
 
H

Hindle

Banned
It would be awesome if they had certain monsters that can only be seen in the game through use of hunting.

In the TW2 the monsters you hunt, are also encountered as ordinary enemies in the game. It kind of took away the surprise of it IMO.

Edit, im only at chapter 1 in W2 so the game may still have what I said.
 
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subversus

I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
The Crusty Juggler said:
It would be awesome if they had certain monsters that can only be seen in the game through use of hunting.

In the TW2 the monsters you hunt, are also encountered as ordinary enemies in the game. It kind of took away the surprise of it IMO.

Edit, im only at chapter 1 in W2 so the game may still have what I said.
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there will be some unique bosses in sidequests which are easy to miss.
 
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Sentenza

Member
As I already pointed in one of my previous posts in this thread, I would really like to see them expanding on the hunting side.
More specifically, I'd like to be forced to "study" through in-game lore and "investigations" how rare/unique monsters behave, how I can lure them in the open and trap them OR how I can disable some of their most dangerous powers before facing them in battle.

Think about it like some sort of "Monster Hunter meets graphic adventure/RPG mechanics".
 
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Jaxter09

Member
Hopefully open world doesn't come with the sacrifice of meaningful and focused areas. The main towns in Witcher 2 are the perfect size; big enough to explore but not tediously massive.
 
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Sentenza

Member
Jaxter09 said:
Hopefully open world doesn't come with the sacrifice of meaningful and focused areas. The main towns in Witcher 2 are the perfect size; big enough to explore but not tediously massive.
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Actually, they are also empty and lifeless in anything but visuals. Which is even more jarring considering how linear the game was and how many open world games handled this side better.
I was sincerely baffled by how underused assets were on TW2.

Floatsam was probably one of the most visually appealing and detailed towns I can remember in any RPG when it comes to eye candy, but you had very few chances to have meaningful interaction with NPCs. Which is a terrible waste, as that's probably the least expensive part to develop, once you have assets and character models.
The whole town felt just like "background" more than "playground" after a while.

Once again, Khorinos in Gothic 2, every major quest hub in Risen (harbor, monastery, swamp) or any town in Ultima VII come to my mind as examples of how to handle this side properly.
And that's also one of the reasons why when people claim that "open world equals to boring and lifeless" I usually wonder what they are talking about and if they have any actual "historical" knowledge of the genre.
 
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subversus

I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
TucoBenedictoPacifico said:
As I already pointed in one of my previous posts in this thread, I would really like to see them expanding on the hunting side.
More specifically, I'd like to be forced to "study" through in-game lore and "investigations" how rare/unique monsters behave, how I can lure them in the open and trap them OR how I can disable some of their most dangerous powers before facing them in battle.

Think about it like some sort of "Monster Hunter meets graphic adventure/RPG mechanics".
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They already sort of did this in TW2. I had to study the golem to advance further because I mostly neglected strong attacks until I met it. But they can make it deeper - like collecting a few books (more info), talking with people, doing quests in exchange of vital info on monsters and so on.
 
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v1oz

Member
Recently Witcher 2 on Xbox 360. Great game. I actually think the linear progression is one of this game's strengths. When I got the game I thought it was an open world sandbox. It sorta looks and plays like one at first impressions. But then you realise when you get to the 2nd act that you can't go back to the old locations anymore. And that's a good thing because the gameplay is very focused and back tracking is at a minimum.

I think going open world is a bad idea. The game will lose focus and you'll be just be wandering around aimlessly in huge miles of forest trying to figure out what to do to progress.
 
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subversus

I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
the other area they need to improve on is stealth. It's not hard to do becase there are a lot of games which do stealth nice, they just need to copy it.
tesv2l3ipy.jpg
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Sentenza

Member
v1oz said:
Recently Witcher 2 on Xbox 360. Great game. I actually think the linear progression is one of this game's strengths. When I got the game I thought it was an open world sandbox. It sorta looks and plays like one at first impressions. But then you realise when you get to the 2nd act that you can't go back to the old locations anymore. And that's a good thing because the gameplay is very focused and back tracking is at a minimum.
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Neither of these two is a good thing in a RPG, where feeling immersed in the setting is a crucial part of the experience.
Beside, when properly done backtracking isn't really a bad thing for the genre. Moving back and forth from different places contributes greatly to create the illusion of being part of a consistent living world. Especially when enough novelty is added from time to time to the places you already visited. It's also a very cost-effective system to squish the most playable content out of your assets.
Progressing through linear scenarios on the other hand creates that daunting feel of "linear progression" or "narrative/cinematic experience" that made the genre so dull in many modern triple A RPGs.

think going open world is a bad idea. The game will lose its focus
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So nothing of value would be lost.
Seriously people, stop basing your prejudices on bad examples (Skyrim/Kingdoms of Amalur) and try some other games (Gothic/Ultima/Fallout 2/Arcanum, to name few) that offered open world that are neither boring, empty or lifeless.

subversus said:
the other area they need to improve on is stealth. It's not hard to do becase there are a lot of games which do stealth nice, they just need to copy it.
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Yep, I agree. Pointed that as well in that previous post of mine I was mentioning before.
Once again Gothic/Risen is a good model of a very simple and yet effective stealth system.
 
K

kinggroin

Banned
A GAFer bought me the second game and something odd happened.

My preconceived notions were shattered, but I was introduced to somethings I didn't expect.

Graphics are....pretty eh. Didn't expect that. Terrible player models, animation and lighting waaaaaaay overdone.

Combat is effing amazing! I mean, wow!
 
N

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
SnakeswithLasers said:
=|
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Over 10 million copies sold. The only other WRPG that has done that recently is Diablo 3.

After that you have like Borderlands and Fallout 3 with 6 million, and ME3 and DA1 with 4-5+ million.

There is a chance Borderlands 2 will end up a bit higher than Fallout 3 did, but WRPGs have very long tails on average, so we won't be able to tell for a year or two.

I'm not sure if we're counting Fable as a WRPG anymore, but that also does in the 4+ range.

But yeah, if you're being inspired by a WRPG that isn't an isometric loot game, that's pretty much the prime choice financially.
 
D

Derrick01

Banned
Nirolak said:
Over 10 million copies sold. The only other WRPG that has done that recently is Diablo 3.

After that you have like Borderlands and Fallout 3 with 6 million, and ME3 and DA1 with 4-5+ million.

There is a chance Borderlands 2 will end up a bit higher than Fallout 3 did, but WRPGs have very long tails on average, so we won't be able to tell for a year or two.

I'm not sure if we're counting Fable as a WRPG anymore, but that also does in the 4+ range.

But yeah, if you're being inspired by a WRPG that isn't an isometric loot game, that's pretty much the prime choice financially.
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You'd think publishers would be smart and learn from the mistakes of the call of duty chase but I doubt it. People want Skyrim, or COD, or Uncharted in those specific genres. Not the clones.
 
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Nirolak

Mrgrgr
Derrick01 said:
You'd think publishers would be smart and learn from the mistakes of the call of duty chase but I doubt it.
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This isn't the Tomb Raider thread. :p

That said, I think you're forgetting one important thing about this chase. It actually worked really well for Battlefield (17 million), Medal of Honor 2010 (6 million), and Homefront (3 million).

Obviously there's not enough room for ten different games, but there is probably room for 2-3 more entrants.
 
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SnakeswithLasers

Member
Nirolak said:
Over 10 million copies sold. The only other WRPG that has done that recently is Diablo 3.

After that you have like Borderlands and Fallout 3 with 6 million, and ME3 and DA1 with 4-5+ million.

There is a chance Borderlands 2 will end up a bit higher than Fallout 3 did, but WRPGs have very long tails on average, so we won't be able to tell for a year or two.

I'm not sure if we're counting Fable as a WRPG anymore, but that also does in the 4+ range.

But yeah, if you're being inspired by a WRPG that isn't an isometric loot game, that's pretty much the prime choice financially.
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I'm not disagreeing that it makes sense financially. I'm just chagrining because despite its success, I didn't enjoy it personally (Diablo 3 is also on that list for me).

That being said, I know that Eastern European devs will still cater to the niche. I just hope the niche doesn't lose CDProjekt if they chase that Skyrim money.
 
N

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
SnakeswithLasers said:
I'm not disagreeing that it makes sense financially. I'm just chagrining because despite its success, I didn't enjoy it personally (Diablo 3 is also on that list for me).

That being said, I know that Eastern European devs will still cater to the niche. I just hope the niche doesn't lose CDProjekt if they chase that Skyrim money.
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Well I don't think you really have to dump your whole identity to follow some of another game's feature set.

While games like Medal of Honor were straight clones of CoD, Battlefield is still notably different, and is notably the one that by far performed the best.

Did you ever get a chance to try Fallout: New Vegas by the way? It's basically the exact same template as Fallout 3, but done in a way that is far more like older WRPGs than what Bethesda makes, and I'd expect games following Skyrim to likely be more divergent than that even.
 
D

Derrick01

Banned
Nirolak said:
This isn't the Tomb Raider thread. :p

That said, I think you're forgetting one important thing about this chase. It actually worked really well for Battlefield (17 million), Medal of Honor 2010 (6 million), and Homefront (3 million).

Obviously there's not enough room for ten different games, but there is probably room for 2-3 more entrants.
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Yeah I had both tabs open and forgot which one I was in lol.

We don't have really any Bethesda-type RPGs outside of a few really niche PC focused games, and even they don't really copy what Bethesda does or did in the past with Morrowind. So I guess there is room for more but I hope they don't copy Skyrim past the whole wandering around a big world thing.
 
Sentenza

Sentenza

Member
Nirolak said:
Over 10 million copies sold. The only other WRPG that has done that recently is Diablo 3.

After that you have like Borderlands and Fallout 3 with 6 million, and ME3 and DA1 with 4-5+ million.

There is a chance Borderlands 2 will end up a bit higher than Fallout 3 did, but WRPGs have very long tails on average, so we won't be able to tell for a year or two.

I'm not sure if we're counting Fable as a WRPG anymore, but that also does in the 4+ range.

But yeah, if you're being inspired by a WRPG that isn't an isometric loot game, that's pretty much the prime choice financially.
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Well , it would be the prime choice IF you still are into the delusion that aping some other popular game is the best way to improve your title's popularity.
In the real world, that almost never works.

Then again, there are people making arbitrary links between cause and effect all the time, so we still hear stories like "Mass Effect became more and more popular while it became more and more focused on shooting, so less RPG sells more".
Which always sounds a weird kind of argument to me, because becoming more popular with successive releases is what you would expect from ANY successful franchise, *regardless* of its direction, unless developers screw things in a blatant, self-evident way.

Complaints about enjoying the new chapter more or less than the predecessor usually come sometime later.

Nirolak said:
This isn't the Tomb Raider thread. :p

That said, I think you're forgetting one important thing about this chase. It actually worked really well for Battlefield (17 million), Medal of Honor 2010 (6 million), and Homefront (3 million).
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Who says "it worked"?
Battlefield actually built its popularity over the years, it was a cult hit on PC and all things considered BF3 still was fairly different from Call of Duty overall, plus those few analogies with that franchise were actually some of its most criticized aspects (pretty much everyone agrees that the single player campaign was shit, for a start).
Medal of Honor Allied Assault was one of the most popular shooters ever made way before the first CoD was published (in fact it's largely from the same developers) so the name carried some weight by itself and the new installment was marketed *heavily* by EA, even tied with the promise to access BF3 beta.
Homefront was generally pointed as a financial failure. Maybe it broke even over time, but that's far from being a big hit.
 
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SnakeswithLasers

Member
Nirolak said:
Well I don't think you really have to dump your whole identity to follow some of another game's feature set.

While games like Medal of Honor were straight clones of CoD, Battlefield is still notably different, and is notably the one that by far performed the best.

Did you ever get a chance to try Fallout: New Vegas by the way? It's basically the exact same template as Fallout 3, but done in a way that is far more like older WRPGs than what Bethesda makes, and I'd expect games following Skyrim to likely be more divergent than that even.
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No, haven't played NV yet. If it's on Steam sale I'll pick it up.

My philosophical issue in all of this is sprawl vs depth. I found Skyrim sprawling, but it was a shallow experience (for me of course, not everyone; it's just a product of how I personally enjoy things). I found The Witcher had depth, but was not as sprawling.

It's like New York vs. Los Angeles. Build out or build up.

I'd love a medium though. And, to be honest, the Skyrim model is probably better in the long run because modders can add depth to systems, but it's harder for them to add sprawl to an environment.
 
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