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vg247-PS4: new kits shipping now, AMD A10 used as base, final version next summer

W

Wynnebeck

Banned
AgentChris said:
I want the PSV d-pad, tighter analog sticks and better R2/L2(they could just take the T button from the PSMove) on the DS4.
Click to expand...

How tight are we talking about for analog sticks? I like the way the sticks move but it wouldn't hurt to be a little tighter. Make it as tight as the 360 pad and were too far gone. I wish I could find a PS3 controller adapter so I can play my Halo 4 with my DS3.
 
M

Massa

Member
Binabik15 said:
It has been a while since I played KZ2 and I haven't openede tge KZ3 copy I got for christmas, but wasn't it more like a thing to keep your controller steady or your aim was thrown off?

It's still awesome any way it is used for aiming, but no, ND used gyros for balancing on logs.
Click to expand...

Yes, Killzone used it for the sniper rifle. You had to keep the controller steady to not mess up your aim.
 
A

ALBOFIGHTER

Member
Why not 8870? Would provide better performance and probably efficiency but it might also be risky this late in the game. I hope the gpu will have full HSA at least.
 
C

Cake Boss

Banned
I wonder if we will be able run multiple programs/apps at once on these consoles.

I want to browse internet/ music/ game at once if its possible.
 
A

AgentChris

Member
Wynnebeck said:
How tight are we talking about for analog sticks? I like the way the sticks move but it wouldn't hurt to be a little tighter. Make it as tight as the 360 pad and were too far gone. I wish I could find a PS3 controller adapter so I can play my Halo 4 with my DS3.
Click to expand...

Maybe make the analog sticks a little taller and increase the tightness by 5-10% or so. It's been a while since I play the N64 but I thought the stick was sturdy. I also don't like how after some wear and tear the sticks become loose. Not sure what SCE could do to prevent that or make them last longer.
 
O

onQ123

Member
What if Sony is using a Cell chip in the PS4 for 4K upscaling & BC?


that's something that they could leave out of the Dev-kits right?




(Keep Hope Alive)
 
A

Angelus Errare

Banned
Spend extra money to attach Cell+XDR chips to PS4 PCB, then spend even more to combat the extra heat

or

Spend extra money to rework Cell to use a GDDR5 memory controller...and still get cell on the PCB

or

Do neither and save money.
 
O

onQ123

Member
Angelus Errare said:
Spend extra money to attach Cell+XDR chips to PS4 PCB, then spend even more to combat the extra heat

or

Spend extra money to rework Cell to use a GDDR5 memory controller...and still get cell on the PCB

or

Do neither and save money.
Click to expand...

or have the Cell as part of a SoC with it's 252MB of XDR Ram stacked on & use it to do so much stuff that it pays for it's self.
 
D

DBT85

Member
Cake Boss said:
I wonder if we will be able run multiple programs/apps at once on these consoles.

I want to browse internet/ music/ game at once if its possible.
Click to expand...

I think either console NOT allowing you to do this in 2013 is going to get lambasted. The Vita can do it, I fully expect both the XB3 and PS4 to do it and do it well.

The one I wonder about is playing a game, pausing it and then watching something on netflix without exiting the game. The Vita requires you to shut the game down.
 
P

Perkel

Banned
DBT85 said:
I think either console NOT allowing you to do this in 2013 is going to get lambasted. The Vita can do it, I fully expect both the XB3 and PS4 to do it and do it well.

The one I wonder about is playing a game, pausing it and then watching something on netflix without exiting the game. The Vita requires you to shut the game down.
Click to expand...

It's good to see multi tasking on consoles but i don't think it's valid anymore. Everybody has computer beside their console, phones even tablets. And all of them will be better to do other stuff than console.

I mean i have twitter facebook and all of apps i want in phone. Why would i use it on console ?

I think dedicated console is right way to go and there is nothing wrong with it if they would choose it.
 
D

DBT85

Member
Perkel said:
It's good to see multi tasking on consoles but i don't think it's valid anymore. Everybody has computer beside their console, phones even tablets. And all of them will be better to do other stuff than console.

I mean i have twitter facebook and all of apps i want in phone. Why would i use it on console ?

I think dedicated console is right way to go and there is nothing wrong with it if they would choose it.
Click to expand...

Do you think either one wants to be the console that offers no functionality other than games?

Multi tasking isn't exclusive to things you can also do on your smartphone. On the Vita I can have a game running, look at my trophies, go to the store, go into party or friends, send a message, use flickr/twitter/facebook to upload a screenshot, change settings for the device, use the browser etc. All by pressing the PS button and switching seamlessly around the OS. One of the few limitations now is not being able to play a video while a game is running. I assume the Netflix app is the same, but it's not out here yet.

That is what the PS4/XB3 should be, and I'm sure are, aiming towards. The rest of your console will work almost entirely as normal while your game is suspended in the background. As opposed to the gimped way the PS3 handles it currently.

I see no reason how not having all the extra stuff could be considered a good idea by the people making the console. What benefit comes from only offering games? They save a bit of money on the team that makes and maintains the OS. On the other side they lose customers to the other console which offers full connectivity to the rest of the 21st century.

It's not about wanting to do it all, it's about having the choice and not being locked inside a box that when you want to do something trivial you have to break out of.

Also, I want to be able to send a video/webpage/photo from my phone or tablet TO my PS4 with a quick gesture. It shouldn't need the game to be shut down to do that, though I don't know about playing a video while having a game loaded.

Finding that funny youtbe video or that trailer might well be easier on your phone or tablet, but watching it is going to be better on your TV.
 
A

antic604

Banned
DBT85 said:
Multi tasking isn't exclusive to things you can also do on your smartphone. On the Vita I can have a game running, look at my trophies, go to the store, go into party or friends, send a message, use flickr/twitter/facebook to upload a screenshot, change settings for the device, use the browser etc. All by pressing the PS button and switching seamlessly around the OS. One of the few limitations now is not being able to play a video while a game is running. I assume the Netflix app is the same, but it's not out here yet.
Click to expand...

Apples vs. oranges, IMO. Vita is a handheld device with touch-screen interface, so it needs to double many functionalities of a smartphone, but PS4 or Xbox720 won't be (handhelds) and I can't really imagine tweeting anything or googling / searching youtube by typing words with gamepad. Until voice recognition starts working properly (for languages other than English), I'd also stick to PS4 + smartphone/tablet combo as it is simply more convenient.
 
R

Ravage

Member
DBT85 said:
Also, I want to be able to send a video/webpage/photo from my phone or tablet TO my PS4 with a quick gesture. It shouldn't need the game to be shut down to do that, though I don't know about playing a video while having a game loaded.

Finding that funny youtbe video or that trailer might well be easier on your phone or tablet, but watching it is going to be better on your TV.
Click to expand...

Dualshock4 will probably have a NFC chip for the One-Touch mirroring feature Sony was showing off at CES. Tap your phone on your DS4 and whatever content it's playing will be mirrored on the big screen.
 
P

Pai Pai Master

Banned
DBT85 said:
I think either console NOT allowing you to do this in 2013 is going to get lambasted. The Vita can do it, I fully expect both the XB3 and PS4 to do it and do it well.

The one I wonder about is playing a game, pausing it and then watching something on netflix without exiting the game. The Vita requires you to shut the game down.
Click to expand...

For Netflix it's understandable. But they patched in the ability to browse the web without shutting your game down and there's no reason a next-gen console shouldn't be able to do this.
 
D

DBT85

Member
antic604 said:
Apples vs. oranges, IMO. Vita is a handheld device with touch-screen interface, so it needs to double many functionalities of a smartphone, but PS4 or Xbox720 won't be (handhelds) and I can't really imagine tweeting anything or googling / searching youtube by typing words with gamepad. Until voice recognition starts working properly (for languages other than English), I'd also stick to PS4 + smartphone/tablet combo as it is simply more convenient.
Click to expand...

So if you were Mr Sony or Mr Microsoft would you release a console that does nothing but play games? Or would you put the other stuff in anyway since the cost of doing so is minimal and the potential backlash for not doing it could cost you sales?

Ravage said:
Dualshock4 will probably have a NFC chip for the One-Touch mirroring feature Sony was showing off at CES. Tap your phone on your DS4 and whatever content it's playing will be mirrored on the big screen.
Click to expand...

This would be cool.

Pai Pai Master said:
For Netflix it's understandable. But they patched in the ability to browse the web without shutting your game down and there's no reason a next-gen console shouldn't be able to do this.
Click to expand...

They did indeed and it was very welcome. I do wonder if the home consoles might be able to cope with Netflix at the same time or not as well.
 
P

phosphor112

Banned
Cake Boss said:
I wonder if we will be able run multiple programs/apps at once on these consoles.

I want to browse internet/ music/ game at once if its possible.
Click to expand...

Browser won't have to stay "open" while your game. It can put the data on the backburner until you load it up again.

onQ123 said:
What if Sony is using a Cell chip in the PS4 for 4K upscaling & BC?

that's something that they could leave out of the Dev-kits right?

(Keep Hope Alive)
Click to expand...

I can see it. (StevieP doesn't).

I just can't imagine sony not having BC. In the digital age, we need it.

It can also be used as a DSP or video encoder for remote play.
 
G

Gunsmithx

Member
phosphor112 said:
Browser won't have to stay "open" while your game. It can put the data on the backburner until you load it up again.



I can see it. (StevieP doesn't).

I just can't imagine sony not having BC. In the digital age, we need it.

It can also be used as a DSP or video encoder for remote play.
Click to expand...

I think I could see Sony dumping BC if it was just physical media but with how much they have pushed PSN and Plus it's hard to seem them completely cutting you off from you collection without something... if people see that they can't carry their stuff with them to an upgrade I could see that making people wary of buying on psn again, not to mention the fact it would be a PR blackeye right off the bat.
 
P

phosphor112

Banned
Gunsmithx said:
I think I could see Sony dumping BC if it was just physical media but with how much they have pushed PSN and Plus it's hard to seem them completely cutting you off from you collection without something... if people see that they can't carry their stuff with them to an upgrade I could see that making people wary of buying on psn again, not to mention the fact it would be a PR blackeye right off the bat.
Click to expand...

Same, but as you said, their DD push has been big. Bigger than MS's, by far.
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
phosphor112 said:
Browser won't have to stay "open" while your game. It can put the data on the backburner until you load it up again.

I can see it. (StevieP doesn't).

I just can't imagine sony not having BC. In the digital age, we need it.

It can also be used as a DSP or video encoder for remote play.
Click to expand...
Remember Sony had a patent in 2010 for a 1PPU4SPU MPA CPU package and about the same time IBM had patents for software using a 4 part "Vector processor". Cell is a vector processor. Page 7 in the Sony patent is a 4 way xbar switch like AMD uses and there will be two free Xbar slots in the PS4 APU if only using 2 Jaguar packages. Below notice there are two vector packages in the example. (There is a IBM linkedin post with testing for 22nm registers for Cell and IBM has used cell to clean the pipes at a new node and they announced their 22nm node last month. There could be 22nm 1PPU4SPU package available for 2.5D attaching to the PS4 APU. Min configuration to emulate PS3 and Xbox 360 would be 2 PPUs and 6 SPUs in addition to a AMD APU.

Notice that Jaguar packages are groups of 4 CPUs but in Jaguar's case there are only 2 vector math units per package. AMD considers a 4 Jaguar CPU package = 1 CU. I suspect that all these 4 vector packages are considered 1 CU. 1PPU4SPU = 1CU = 1 Jaguar CPU package = 1 GCN GPU CU. Video is going to have a serious bandwidth that a jaguar CU or GPU CU might not be able to handle. Then there is the graphics pre-emption issue with GP GPUs in switching from Compute to graphics.

Parallelized Ray Tracing

Ray tracing image processing system


patents


patents


Also notice that a 8000 series GPU CU has 4 vector SIMD units.

GCN-CUTh.png
 
P

phosphor112

Banned
jeff_rigby said:
Remember Sony had a patent in 2010 for a 1PPU4SPU MPA CPU package and about the same time IBM had patents for software using a 4 part "Vector processor". Cell is a vector processor. Page 7 in the Sony patent is a 4 way xbar switch like AMD uses and there will be two free Xbar slots in the PS4 APU if only using 2 Jaguar packages. Below notice there are two vector packages in the example. (There is a IBM linkedin post with testing for 22nm registers for Cell and IBM has used cell to clean the pipes at a new node and they announced their 22nm node last month. There could be 22nm 1PPU4SPU package available for 2.5D attaching to the PS4 APU. Min configuration to emulate PS3 and Xbox 360 would be 2 PPUs and 6 SPUs in addition to a AMD APU.

Notice that Jaguar packages are groups of 4 CPUs but in Jaguar's case there are only 2 vector math units per package. AMD considers a 4 Jaguar CPU package = 1 CU. I suspect that all these 4 vector packages are considered 1 CU. 1PPU4SPU = 1CU = 1 Jaguar CPU package = 1 GCN GPU CU. Video is going to have a serious bandwidth that a jaguar CU or GPU CU might not be able to handle. Then there is the graphics pre-emption issue with GP GPUs in switching from Compute to graphics.

Parallelized Ray Tracing

Ray tracing image processing system

Also notice that a 8000 series GPU CU has 4 vector SIMD units.

GCN-CUTh.png
Click to expand...

I understand their patent, but not exactly how you are tying it to AMD's CU's or something...
 
B

Brad Grenz

Member
antic604 said:
Apples vs. oranges, IMO. Vita is a handheld device with touch-screen interface, so it needs to double many functionalities of a smartphone, but PS4 or Xbox720 won't be (handhelds) and I can't really imagine tweeting anything or googling / searching youtube by typing words with gamepad. Until voice recognition starts working properly (for languages other than English), I'd also stick to PS4 + smartphone/tablet combo as it is simply more convenient.
Click to expand...

OK. How about being able to switch to Netflix without having to find a save point? Or not having to wait 5 minutes for your game and save to load every time you want to play again? How about popping out of a game to queue up some downloads from the PlayStation Store. Maybe you want to run a Pandora or Spotify or Music Unlimited stream in the background while you play. Those are the kind of things multitasking will allow.
 
A

androvsky

Member
Just spotted this via slashdot:
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...t-former-employees-for-alleged-document-theft

AMD has filed (and been granted) a request for immediate injunctive relief against multiple former employees that it alleges stole thousands of confidential documents. Named in the complaint are Robert Feldstein, Manoo Desai, Nicholas Kociuk, and Richard Hagen. All four left AMD to work at Nvidia in the past year. The loss of Feldstein was particularly noteworthy, as he’d been the head of AMD’s console initiatives for years. Feldstein was behind the work that landed AMD the Wii U, PS4, and Xbox Durango.
Click to expand...
 
Used-ID

Used-ID

Member
Question about backwards compatability:

Could AMD/Sony use a CPU core to emulate the PPE part of Cell while the GPU section of the APU emulates the SPUs?

We're talking about a chip that's been customized right? Do you think Sony might use some of the space on the APU for some type of second-gen SPU in the GPU section?
 
C

Can Crusher

Banned
Furthermore, the company states that it has evidence that Hagen and Feldstein directly recruited Desai and Kociuk as well as attempted to solicit other employees from AMD. It then details the contents of specific folders and emails that were apparently transferred to external storage, and the list is pretty damning. Desai and Kociuk discussed how to eliminate evidence of transfer from their AMD systems. The named defendants ran Google searches for how to copy and delete large numbers of documents. Over 150,000 documents related to AMD desktop and laptop design were transferred before Kociuk turned in his resignation to AMD.
Click to expand...

Sounds like jail time to me. NVIDIA better be easy on the trigger, AMD tech appearing on their products in the near future won't paint a pretty picture.

Used-ID said:
Question about backwards compatability:

Could AMD/Sony use a CPU core to emulate the PPE part of Cell while the GPU section of the APU emulates the SPUs?

We're talking about a chip that's been customized right? Do you think Sony might use some of the space on the APU for some type of second-gen SPU in the GPU section?
Click to expand...

Better forget about BC.
 
Karak

Karak

Member
James Sawyer Ford said:
Doubt it has any practical implications for the next-gen consoles though. Seems like it was more of an AMD --> nVidia espionage.
Click to expand...

Edited out. My comment seems trite. Not sure why I was that short in my response. Ignore my comment.
sant said:
Are games going to run in 4k? Or does 4k compatibility mean that the UI and video output are going to be 4k?
Click to expand...

Some will for sure. 4k compatibility could mean so many things though. That's the issue.
 
S

sant

Member
Karak said:
...thanks for the recap?


Some will for sure. 4k compatibility could mean so many things though. That's the issue.
Click to expand...

So basically only first party devs will bother then right? I can't see a multiplatform dev taking the time to support it.
 
Karak

Karak

Member
sant said:
So basically only first party devs will bother then right? I can't see a multiplatform dev taking the time to support it.
Click to expand...

That is not always how it works and it only means it can output at 4k.
If I was a dev I would love to have my game at that. But no it would not be restricted to first party. More restricted to those who want a particular look to their games.
 
S

sant

Member
Karak said:
That is not always how it works and it only means it can output at 4k.
If I was a dev I would love to have my game at that. But no it would not be restricted to first party. More restricted to those who want a particular look to their games.
Click to expand...

But you would need to take the time and effort to optimize your game to run in 4k though right? I'm not talking about a restriction placed on devs, but more of a time value of money question. The PS3 already gets shoddy ports of games, why would any dev bother with 4k?
 
Used-ID

Used-ID

Member
sant said:
So basically only first party devs will bother then right? I can't see a multiplatform dev taking the time to support it.
Click to expand...

I think 4k will be limited to movies / pictures. I doubt developers will give us 1080p 'action-based' games. RPGs and the like I could see being 1080p though - not too much going on at any specific point. I'm sure devs will just give us prettier 720p games.
 
Karak

Karak

Member
sant said:
But you would need to take the time and effort to optimize your game to run in 4k though right? I'm not talking about a restriction placed on devs, but more of a time value of money question. The PS3 already gets shoddy ports of games, why would any dev bother with 4k?
Click to expand...

You would. But if you were shooting for 4k you have specific things you want your game to reflect. You might want a VERY barren but high poly environment.

Now if you mean Skyrim 4k. No no not what I mean.
More like some crazy Geomatry Wars shooter at 4k. Or something else like that with basic structures but ultra high res.
If I were designing a game for 4k that is what I would shoot for. Something sleek, Tronlike. Those aesthetics would fit 4k very well.
 
S

sant

Member
Karak said:
You would. But if you were shooting for 4k you have specific things you want your game to reflect. You might want a VERY barren but high poly environment.

Now if you mean Skyrim 4k. No no not what I mean.
More like some crazy Geomatry Wars shooter at 4k. Or something else like that.
If I were designing a game for 4k that is what I would shoot for. Something sleek, tronlike. Those aesthetics would fit 4k very well.
Click to expand...

Oh ok I see what you mean now.
 
S

stryke

Member
sant said:
So basically only first party devs will bother then right? I can't see a multiplatform dev taking the time to support it.
Click to expand...

It's not about being first party or third. It's about what kind of game you are trying to make. Your next Pixeljunk shooters or your next limbos might be in 4k. Your next uncharteds, God of wars won't be. Not without compromise.
 
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