720 will have some eDRAM or perhaps even some GDDR5 on the gpu. DDR3 is to slow.
But we don't know the details yet.
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[Eurogamer\DF] Orbis Unmasked: what to expect from the next-gen PlayStation.
- Thread starter Saty
- Start date
720 will have some eDRAM or perhaps even some GDDR5 on the gpu. DDR3 is to slow.
But we don't know the details yet.
Can Crusher
Banned
Yes if those particular set of rumors set the real limits and boundaries of next gen consoles, it does seem that way.
But as you said, if the rumors....
I'm glad you have experience developing for these systems. Tell us more about the real world performances, bottlenecks you guys are finding early on, will your game look next gen for real or are you guys still relying on old tech and hoping that better IQ and rez will be enough for a launch window game?
Sanctuary
Member
For sure. Too many people with seemingly zero knowledge or real experience with PC gaming posting in this thread using first grade math as the deciding factor on what is "enough".
michaelius
Banned
madmaxx350
Member
that's the thing though, we dont know what GPU is going to be in Orbis, I think DF made a mistake of comparing the GPU with the 7970m.
We know it has 18 CUs and is clocked at 800Mhz and that theoretically as DF stated that it would perform similar to a 7970M in a computer/laptop setting but we have no idea what it will do in a closed box setting so I hope people stop saying the GPU will be a mobile GPU.
And even then things can still change.
Show me the games on the supposedly more powerful hardware that look better than the first party offerings of this Gen. It is not that the devs will not deliver more, bot now the hardware playing field seems to be level from a developer standpoint. I expect there will be an even greater gap between the quality of other devs and Sony's supposedly non existent tech wizards.
Yeah my thought exactly, people are never happy with what they get
4GBGDDR5 is cool. 8GB DDR3 + EDRam is very fine too.
Seriously, disappointed people need a reality check. We can all be happy that both consoles offers a significant gain in performance, they could have followed the Nintendo way.
Sony just can't put a non profitable console on the market now, they can't redo a PS3, and even if they could, what would be the point? PS3 start was a failure both for Sony and gamers.
And Microsoft, well considering they'll redo this kinect thing, it's a relief to see high specs comparable to the ones of the PS4.
There truly is no needs to get upset over the rumored specs, theses are great, and even impressive for the audience they will be targeting.
Once again, PC folks will benefit greatly from next gen development, so everybody should be satisfied imo.
GHG
Member
Of course, the GPU will be a specially modified version of a desktop (hopefully) or mobile GPU, so it will be impossible to say what model of PC GPU it compares to until a full spec sheet is leaked/released, but the early signs are not looking great.
The GPU in the PS3 was the standout weak point at the time of release, but it was paired with a monstrous CPU in the Cell processor which was capable of over double the theoretical peak in terms of GFLOPS compared to a high end desktop CPU at the time. This time however, based on the rumors, the processor is not capable of saving the day. What will save the day in this case will have to be the rendering architecture (not known yet) and bandwidth (looks to be good based on the rumors). The main challenge will be how to utilize all of the bandwidth available, because everything else at this point is pretty much a known entity.
Angelus Errare
Banned
"untapped power" is idiot talk for efficiency. That and "potential" are two of the most hilarious memes ever introduced.
Are you sure about this, it will be smaller than the slim versions of Xbox 360 and PS3? I have my doubts. I joked about it earlier but by the way some people are talking in here it makes it sound like they are literally going to ship out laptops. I hope this console ends up feeling like a full generation leap.
hardware is hardware. of course, how it performs in its console environment with whatever throughput advantages that may hold is an unknown quantity, but given the numbers we have combined with the power and TDP limitations of consoles, a high end mobile chip is the closest direct equivalence.
i partially agree with agies in that there will be a dab of custom silicon to perform specific tasks, but given:
i) GPUs are already relatively specialised task masters
ii) the CPU seems be the weakest link
iii) we already see paths for certain CPU based tasks like physics rendering being offset by discrete chips
i think the jaguar is going to be more of a co-ordinator than anything, leaving the heavy lifting to whatever streamlined task specific silicon they can bolt on to it.
Do you honestly believe that most of these responses would even exist if XB3 had the same amount of RAM available for game development (3.5 vs 5)? Because people have yet to see the proof of what makes GDDR5 a good choice over DDR3, the contention is based on "amount" alone, pushing the "type" into irrelevancy. It's more about people hoping that PS4 doesn't get short end of the stick when it comes to multiplat titles like current gen.
madmaxx350
Member
well someone correct me if I'm wrong but you'd be able to access about 1GB/5G of memory per frame at the DDR3 speed while on the PS4 you'd be able to get around 3 of the 4 GB per frame, so I'd say that if 5 GB is set for games in the 720 that the Orbis does have in advantage in some ways.
GHG
Member
Yes untapped power does = efficiency of the code thrown at the hardware.
I do however, think it would be harsh to say that the PS3 did not have a lot of unrealised potential at the time of launch. Compare 1st party launch titles to what we have coming out over the next year and the gulf is huge.
Of course, the same can be said of the Xbox 360 and any other console that has gone before but I don't think the improvement is as vast when comparing launch titles to games that release late in the consoles life cycle.
Unless Sony and Microsoft have some secrets left then I'd expect the new consoles to be no bigger than the slim variants of the current gen consoles.
It will be a big leap for those who have been exclusively console gaming for the last 5-7 years. For those who have had significant exposure to PC gaming, then its a different story.
MikeE21286
Member
Right now it's looking like Durango has something to prove to me.
Orbis is in the drivers seat.
Orbis is in the drivers seat.
Who am I kidding? I'll probably get both
I think what he meant, and what i believe too, is that the new consoles will be smaller than the first iterations of this gen.
Although imo they could possibly be slimmer than the last models too. But i wouldn't bet on it.
BoboBrazil
Member
Seeing what Sony devs have done with PS3 with games like Uncharted 3, Killzone 3, and God of War and you should know that anything they come up with for PS4 will blow anything PC out of the water for atleast a couple of years graphically(of course not resolution wise on high end pcs). They have also shown a new willingness to work with devs and put things they want into the hardware so I think we will get a very developer friendly system. Sony just seems like the obvious winner for which console I should get between the two upcoming systems. The output of great first and second party games as well as better Japanese support, and free online player makes it a better buy for me than whatever MS comes up with.
I don't even think that is true, but we will see.
But in any case, I don't even think that if 8 GB were to be used only for games, they will be all that useful, as far as pretty graphics goes. Yea sure, 8 gb may be able to hold more assets, but the DDR3 bandwidth can only access to at best 1/8th of the total assets stored in memory per frame at 60 fps, or 1/4 of the total assets stored in memory per frame. 4gb DDR5 can access around 3GB of the memory per frame at 60 FPS which is basically almost the entire memory allocated for gaming, and at 30FPS, they basically can access every asset stored in memory AND make multiple passes if they wish. And the above is a gross overestimation, in reality, the CPU will have to access the memory as well, and you don't just read memory, you have to write onto them as well. I may not be an expert, but I just don't see how the advantage of having DDR3 outweighs the advantage of having DDR5, as far as gaming goes. Note that the 360 has access to roughly 800mb of the memory per frame, in relation to its total pool of 512MB of memory, it just seems to me the durango is going to be extremely bandwidth starved. How pretty your graphics pretty much depends on how much data you can feed your GPU per frame.
ThisWreckage
Banned
You're entitled to your opinion but please be advised that you'll eat those words when first party games are shown off. While it's true that the PS3 is more powerful than the 360, the argument could be made that it's memory set up and Cell processor made it an utter nightmare to develop games for. And no, Sony hasn't signed all of the great developers and no one insinuated that. But the fact remains that they are constantly acquiring new studios and making the studios they already own even larger by creating teams. They have some of the best talent in the industry and I can't even believe I'm having this conversation.
That is only partly true, because everything suggests PC ports will be easier than ever, so even if next gen indeed brings a whole new level of graphic fidelity, i believe PC will benefits from this immediately too. And high end PC will most certainly run launch games with a better visual fidelity.
Horse Armour
Member
These specs are terrible considering the months of people saying that they would be massive leaps over what we had. You'll be able to pick up a $250 GPU by the time they launch that will destroy these things, that never happened last gen (certainly not when the 360 launched).
Well it is. It's a huge leap over the current gen, both in raw performance and on technology involved.
Can Crusher
Banned
Sure.
Crysis 1 alone is already ahead of PS3 in 2007.
Then you have a bunch of multi plat games that on PC look better than anything on consoles, like Assassins Creed, Skyrim (mods), GTA IV (mods), Mass Effect 2, Mirrors Edge, Bad Company 2, Battlefield 3, Max Payne 3, Batman Arkham Asylum, Rage, Crysis 2, list goes on...
As far as games designed with pretty much the pc in mind, Witcher 2 for examples just wipes the floor with stuff, Project Cars...
It's just a silly debate really. And I'm not saying what some of the games in Sony's first party did this gen isn't amazing. But I could say that for games on Xbox 360, PS2, Xbox1, Gamecube, PSx1, N64 and so on. Doesn't mean it's technically wizardry, unless they are doing something with the system that shouldn't be possible.
GHG
Member
Honestly, I highly doubt this. Also, you cannot discount resolution and IQ as they are a huge part of graphical fidelity. I didn't believe this until I built my 1st high end PC a few years back, but IQ and rendering at native resolution make most games look and feel a lot more realistic. And thats not even factoring in framerate. I don't want to shatter peoples hopes and dreams here, but don't expect anything mind-bending. Remember, we have Crysis 3 releasing on PC in several weeks.
Honestly, if Sony were to say the following, console gamers would feel liberated: "Ok we're not going to go all out and go crazy with the visual effects on early PS4 games. What we will focus on is getting a locked 30/60fps, vsync, native rendering at 1080p with 4xAA and 16xAF and use that as a base line for all our games. We will add effects as we become more familiar with our new hardware but we will not break the rule above."
Because that's how I felt when I used that rule with my gaming PC. Gaming became fluid and fun. No shimmering edges, screen tearing or stuttering framerate to pull you out of the experience. It was blissful and reminded me that gaming can actually be fun again whilst still being a feast for the eyes.
Gemüsepizza
Member
Bullshit. Again, this is a closed box with an 8 core CPU, a special compute unit, probably audio dsp, 3.5 GB GDDR5 RAM and a GPU comparable to a Radeon HD 7850/7870. And you want to tell us that a Radeon HD 8870 with ~2 GB GDDR5 RAM will "destroy" this console? Jesus Christ, no, this won't happen.
Aye. I certainly hope that the GPU rumors at the very least are way off base, but if my now almost two-year-old PC is more powerful than these things when they launch I'm going to be really disappointed...
BoboBrazil
Member
Not really. Game engines now are based off of engines that were made to be portable to 360 and PS3 so that is why you are stuck with games looking like they do on PC. New engines will be made for next gen systems like 720 and PS4, thus you won't see new games on PC that have the same graphics for awhile, especially when you factor in the os overhead for Windows and that on PC they have to factor in a ton of different variables when making games to run on as many systems as possible. On PS4 and 720 games have a closed box to be built upon so they can take advantage of everything they offer with no concerns. These systems will definitely run the games better than a high end pc out there today.
I wouldn't be worried about the 3.5 GB of GDDR5 I'll be more worried about the 5 GB of DDR3.
Going by the rumoured specs they won't.
Ok having a opinion is all well and good as these things are largely subjective, but to ridiculously compare PC games to console games in another story.
This is pointless conversation carry on with your agenda whatever it is.
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
I agree with the first part, but I think it is still exciting. When have developers ever had a 8-core CPU so closely coupled to a GPU both sharing high bandwidth memory? While the pieces are clearly related to off the shelf stuff, their arrangement is pretty novel.
And the GDDr5 is not about twice as fast, it is 192/64 = 3x if the rumored numbers are true. The GDDR5 number is common on video cards, I've never seen the high bandwidth DDR MS wants to use, must be cutting edge.
Insane Metal
Member
Can't wait until something actually interesting leaks. People said to expect leaks soon, so I guess next week something might come up?
Well, there is this rumour that the ORbis will be the first to be announced, and that it is only a matter of 'weeks' before it happens. I am skeptical, but we'll see.
Gemüsepizza;46630326 said:
a $250 GPU will be something more like a 3TFLOP 8950 with an expected 3GB VRAM standard.
i don't think anyone should be disappointed in these specs. unlike the PS3, the power is exactly where it needs to be; you'll still get more performance per dollar than you could on an equivalent PC.
if people can break out of their 2006 mindset where a small low power box you slide under your TV can compete with unhindered custom built behemoths then they should be perfectly content.
Can Crusher
Banned
Of course it's just an "opinion", it's largely subjective, ridiculous to compare PC games to Ps3 games (premise of more powerful hardware), pointless and I have an agenda.
Give me a break, you are acting like a child. Didn't want to talk about it, then you shouldn't have replied to me. Get over it.
Gemüsepizza
Member
A Radeon HD 7870 costs about $250. I assume AMD will position the 8870 at a similar price.
GHG
Member
If you are using this rule for console ports of games that are made on an engine made specifically for consoles (see saints row 2), then yes, you may be correct.
What you are failing to factor in however, is the fact that most next gen engines are being made with the PC in mind as well. It doesn't matter how well that game is coded on the 720/PS4, the sheer power of a high end PC (overclocked i5 or i7 paired with a 7970/gtx 680) will outperform the console counterpart through sheet brute force. What you will also likely see are PC specific features, such as more players in multiplayer or specific graphical effects using Physx or CUDA (see just cause 2).
Yes 1st part PS4/720 games may end up looking better than most PC games, but if you then compare them to PC exclusive or PC first (games coded for the PC in mind 1st then scaled down to consoles) titles such as Crysis, Witcher 2, Metro 2033 they end up being surpassed again.
I don't think you got the grasp of what i just said.
New engines will be conceived will console in mind of course, but all the specs suggests that these engines will run very fine on a PC too, since it will have a similar architecture.
Also, what will become major actors in the next gen market like CryEngine3 and UnrealEngine4 are developed for PC primarily, since years.
And finally you have to take into account that despite the fine tuning allowed by a closed system, PC will still have a very substantial advantage in horsepower. That wasn't the case for the last gen, but it is a strong reality this time.
If you think launch console games won't be able to run on mid-high range computer, you are really delusional. They'll probably run easier than ever, and with a better IQ.
Sorc3r3r
Member
R
Rösti
Unconfirmed Member
As for announced events, Sony hasn't got much before the Q3 FY2012 Earnings Announcement on February 07. Then after there's Destination PlayStation which starts on the 25th of February. An announcement between these dates would certainly account for more leaks soon. Microsoft on the other hand has two upcoming events next week with the Fiscal Year 2013 Second Quarter Earnings Conference Call and the Microsoft Hardware Open House & Networking Event - SVC on the 24th of January. Now, as was "established" in the threads surrounding that event (and others), expect no reveal of Durango there. Though I wouldn't be surprised if they shared a small comment on their plans. Also, AMD's Q4 2012 Earnings Conference Call happens on the 22nd of January.
With these quite expansive leaks and a lot of events happening soon, I think things are going to heat up quickly.
I'm expecting custom chips based off of certain AMD architectures. If Sony is aiming for a high end 78xx chip, I'm expecting an increase in performance and efficiency because of the customization. Therefore, Sony's variant won't be directly comparable to a retail AMD GPU. I believe that is important to keep in mind.
512mb of RAM dedicated to the OS is fantastic news, if only its a rumor. That is the direction Sony seems to be taking based off of the Vita OS.
If I were to bet my money, however, I would stack my bets against all of these rumors because I don't think a single rumor is correct, especially regarding Orbis.
512mb of RAM dedicated to the OS is fantastic news, if only its a rumor. That is the direction Sony seems to be taking based off of the Vita OS.
If I were to bet my money, however, I would stack my bets against all of these rumors because I don't think a single rumor is correct, especially regarding Orbis.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
+1. Did this MB/GB per frame ever get discussed with PS3/360? Because I don't remember it.
eso76
Member
Durango obviously has something like DDR5 or eDRAM to go with the GPU, though.
And don't forget components are customized and that both consoles seem to have 2 or 3 "magical" devices that allow for stuff that according to devs "you can't do on a high end PC right now"
Wouldn't matter for the PS3 and 360, since they are fairly equal in terms of memory bandwidth.
Can Crusher
Banned
Bayonetta doesn't seem to agree.
Open Source
Banned
Back in the day, I really wanted an 80287.
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
And that's not even max settings (lacking motion blur).