You are absolutely right.
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[Eurogamer\DF] Orbis Unmasked: what to expect from the next-gen PlayStation.
- Thread starter Saty
- Start date
You are absolutely right.
Bayonetta is also hardly an indicator of anything, on both consoles.
Oppo
Member
Bayonetta is not a benchmark.
I think you're far overestimating the value of optimization, which we won't truly see at work until later on in the generation, at which point PCs will have handily surpassed the new consoles. I like the specs I'm hearing, but based on these specs, a lot of high end GPUs out right now(Say, a 670 or a 7950) will most likely be able to brute force a better image than consoles will, or get similar bells and whistles going but with better frame rates/resolutions.
Early games won't be technological marvels compared to what comes later, I'm afraid. I can't really think of an example where it is the case.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I didn't mean in the sense of pitting them against each other. Just generally and how the same thing works with PC's.
Can Crusher
Banned
How so? Alpha blending completely ate that bandwidth. How is that not an indicator?
And by the time these consoles actually launch (I'd imagine this November) we'll already have Haswell out from Intel to boost CPU power (although it is only 10% clock for clock over Ivy Bridge it promises a better OCing range) as well as new AMD and Nvidia GPUs, both of which will have fairly mature driver support by that stage.
To me the article was like a back handed compliment, written by a PC lover. It was like "it's going to be REALLY powerful - only a bit less powerful than a good laptop that's available now!!!"
I really hope the new consoles don't end up being as close to a top PC as money allows. I hope they go a new route if needed, technology-wise and idea wise, if need be.
I really hope the new consoles don't end up being as close to a top PC as money allows. I hope they go a new route if needed, technology-wise and idea wise, if need be.
Have we even heard anything about DDR5 in Durango, though? As for the eDRAM, based off what I'm seeing in this thread by people that know far more than me, it's performance will help equalize, but not exactly match Sony's 3.5GB of GDDR5.
Someone with more tech know-how correct me if I'm wrong here.
Regarding memory, as some suggests, the most important is bandwidth, since apparently quantity won't be a major issue on any platform.
Bandwidth depends on memory type and "speed" for sure, but buses used and the location of the memory pool(s?) are two major factor to take into account too. And we have no information on that yet so it's hard to get to conclusion yet.
It's very possible that PS4 has GDDR5 and 720 DDR3, but it's not enough to tell if the gap in bandwidth between the two will be massive or not.
Bandwidth depends on memory type and "speed" for sure, but buses used and the location of the memory pool(s?) are two major factor to take into account too. And we have no information on that yet so it's hard to get to conclusion yet.
It's very possible that PS4 has GDDR5 and 720 DDR3, but it's not enough to tell if the gap in bandwidth between the two will be massive or not.
A Trials Evolution developer on B3D was talking about it recently in regards to the new consoles, it was picked up here.
Angelus Errare
Banned
There isn't anything to suggest Durango is using GDDR5 other than MisterX's hilarious BS induced diagram.
GHG
Member
They'll go the route that they look to be going now, which is the hybrid PC hardware route.
The only exception being that the 720 will probably have streaming capabilities which should extend its life cycle by quite a bit. I can't think of any other logical reason to reserve so much RAM for the OS.
Gemüsepizza
Member
Which still won't give you similar performance for the same price in a PC.
It has 2GB of GDDR5 yeah with a 256-bit memory bus.
Gemüsepizza;46631090 said:
With the rumours of the new generation of Pentium's (and Core i3's) having the ability to overclock you'll be able to get a great CPU for gaming for very little outlay.
This GPU IS powerful...
7870 Desktop:
7970M
To be honest, 7970M result was a bit overclocked...BUT...lets not forget it will be fully utilized in a console with some other secret HW to off-load some stuff.
This card is amazing, I had the 6990M it was great! this is twice as powerful with way less TDP.
It's not:
"Microsoft looks set to be using an offshoot of eDRAM technology connected to the graphics core to offset the bandwidth issues the use of DDR3 incurs."
Part of enthusiasm is finally seeing Sony first party develop games not handicapped by 7 year old tech.
All the games you listed on PC, there minimum requirement for pc itself exceed ps3. Hence those game would even be unplayable in the lowest setting on hardware spec of ps3. showing what an unbelievable sony first party (console developer in general)and even with that handicap, the first party puts out exclusives that are at least close to what pc world is doing. which to me does show the skill level.
GHG
Member
It will most likely be paired with a small partion of EDRAM which will be there to take care of high bandwidth tasks.
They may well have gone that route to enable them to enter at a cheaper price point than the PS4 or to bundle in Kinect or something else similar with all 720's that get sold.
A lot of the points people seem to bring up with regards to consoles temporarily outperforming PCs is that they tend to gun for using a mid-range PCs as a comparison either implicitly or explicitly, rather than higher-end stuff. It's a bit of fallacy to try and do so, since we have a good idea of what's going to be coming to the PC hardware market, and the really high end stuff already kind of stomps on what we know will be in the consoles.
I'm actually really excited to see what this years' new GPUs are capable of. My soon-to-be-arriving-in-the-mail GTX 670 still can't run Crysis maxed out without cutting down on some of the eye candy or going SLI. I'm hoping this is the year high end GPUs not labeled the GTX 690 or HD 7990 can meet some benchmarks.
SneakyStephan
Banned
All I know is that by the time the next consoles are out I'll be upgrading my 6870 with a 8950 or gtx 760ti (depends which is out first really, I hear kepler 1.0 might get delayed,stab at kepler intended) and that I'll be set with a pc twice as powerful for that 300 euros.
The ps4 should cost 250-300 euros but I bet sony 'll get greedy.
Shame I can't invest 300 euros into my ps3 to make it a 3 TF powerhouse...
Can Crusher
Banned
I agree with this sentiment.
That is not true, PS3 bandwidth is an important issue.
But architectures are very different so it's not easy to make direct comparison.
the numbers line up with the 7850, not 70. there's quite a large discrepancy between them
Updated, please see my comment >.<
Tripolygon
Banned
The Gods have spoken
Oppo
Member
Don't know where to begin.. one graphical aspect of one port of one game doesn't tell you anything
iamshadowlark
Banned
Im sure BF3 High in 1080p is quite enough for launch games. And games will look alot better than that after a few generations of software. This 7970m + (secret sauce) helper unit should easily net 2TFLOPS+.
Im not sure anybody screaming thats not enough have any idea of what they are going on about. The more people look at desktop GPU for comparison the further they seem to stray from the reality of closed box development.
Yes, EDRAM will help. EDRAM is basically a very small cache to hold information that can be accessed very quickly by the GPU. Its main effect, as I understand it, is to save bandwidth access to the main memory by storing data you need to access many times and make multiple passes on on the EDRAM instead of the main memory. In the best case scenario, certain data stored on the main memory may need to only be accessed once, and once stored onto the EDRAM, the GPU can have fast access to that (small amount) of data as many times as it likes without negatively impacting the bandwidth to the main memory. This is a pretty big advantage in the PS3 and 360 era, since their main memory has a comparable bandwidth, but EDRAM has much higher bandwidth. In this case though, the bandwidth difference between the Orbis and Durango is of the order of 3 times, and the EDRAM is not that much faster than the GDDR5 in the first place, so I don't see how its inclusion will allow it to match Sony's memory.
OMG how dare you talk about optimisation on consoles!
Can Crusher
Banned
Well maybe you could explain about the bandwidth in real world applications, when it comes to 360 and PS3? PS2 and Xbox pretty much played like that too in terms of bandwidth being used for alpha blending effects that brought Xbox 1 to its knees.
I don't mind being wrong.
?
Those graphs are still showing the 70, not to mention both use an overclocked part, when the console counterpart is almost certainly going to be underclocked by a fair margin.
It may not, but in this case, it is true that alpha blending operations in general are a hell for the PS3. And it is indeed much less problematic on the 360.
Dark_AnNiaLatOr
Member
But there will be another gpu in the apu right? One integrated and possibly the 7970m being discrete.
Well tbh, 360 Edram is still very much faster than GDDR5.
And 720 will certainly provides more and faster EDRAM than the 360.
Boss Man
Member
Xbox 360 invented background downloading.
I think people just like to use this argument, and when you're trying it's very easy to do. You could pick a specific device out of any set and do the same thing.
grimshawish
Banned
People do forget that their basically ramping up last gen console games; but I do think PCs will be pretty fine keeping up with next gen consoles. DDR5 in PS4 could cause some issues for some though; but its all upgradable.
Be interesting to see what the results are, the boxed environments stuff seems secondary to me - its much more about what the artists and designers are able to bring to life with the extra power. PCs have only been running games focused on weaker boxes, thats the closed box environment - games are focused on being weaker.
Next gen just takes the belt back a few notches and allows everyone to be more glutinous.
I'd be interested to know how well the laptop and GPU in that article can run The Witcher 2. I mean, the 360 runs it surprisingly, no amazingly, well.
Also, the new consoles will have to cater for standard TV output, won't they? Or will the new consoles only work with HDTV? I'm not that bothered about high resolutions tbh, I'm much more interested in what effects can be achieved on the new hardware.
Also, the new consoles will have to cater for standard TV output, won't they? Or will the new consoles only work with HDTV? I'm not that bothered about high resolutions tbh, I'm much more interested in what effects can be achieved on the new hardware.
gaming_noob
Member
Is it cheaper to find a way to alleviate the bottleneck of DDR3 (making the board more complicated) rather than going for GDDR5? Or is it a heat issue with GDDR5 they're trying to avoid?
Frankfurter
Member
Just btw. DDR5 and GDDR5 are not the same. There actually is no such thing (yet) as DDR5. GDDR5 is sort of derived from DDR3 (same goes for GDDR3 being derived from DDR2).
Alpha blending is something that can be done on the EDRAM, which makes it nearly free as far as bandwidth goes since the GPU has fast access to the EDRAM. Textures and game assets are generally accessed from the main memory (since they are too small to fit into a EDRAM which is only a couple of megabytes). To make it simpler, the 360 gets free bandwidth (or does not consume bandwidth from the main memory) for specific effects, which the PS3 does not get, although XDR has a slightly higher bandwidth than 360's memory.
Boss Man
Member
My guess is that they wanted a lot of RAM to be able to cover the OS/features cost, and 7-8GB of GDDR5 is too expensive. Just a guess though.
ummm, Yes, the OCed 7870 version, because I was replying to Horse Armour's comment where he was saying they should've used something on par with an OCed 7870!
I know it will be underclocked, but I believe this is still a good indication of how powerful this GPU will be, lets not try to underestimate it
Going for DDR3 allows them to include more RAM.
Can Crusher
Banned
Slightly, and it's for Cell. Isn't the bandwidth and memory amount responsible for why many multiplat games have better framerates or better aa or whatever than they do on PS3?
GHG
Member
And Kinect in every box.
Boss Man
Member
Where is 2GB GDDR5 and 4GB DDR3 coming from? Shouldn't it be 3.5GB and 5GB, or is this related to something else?The Gods have spoken
Imagine after all, it turns out to be a hogwash and Sony opts to stackcats 6-8GB DDR3 RAM with 32MB ES/ED RAM. Assuming Sony's OS won't be as large as MS's, they'd end up with about the same amount of RAM for developers. How quickly would discussion change to "oh but it's slow, slow ram!".