PRjumpman124
Member
I think they should do something like this but for 3DS.
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Is the Zelda series REALLY formulaic? Is it in need of an overhaul?
- Thread starter mooooose
- Start date
I think they should do something like this but for 3DS.
You do realize that Zelda bosses aren't just amorphrous blobs that die when you rub a specific item against them, right? Shoving a bomb down a giant dodongo's throat is a different experience from pulling Morpha's nucleus out of its water tentacle with the hookshot. You might as well complain that Link explores dungeons by running around, or uses keys and switches to open doors.
Why do Zelda fans like to complain about really vague concepts being reused as though they're not implemented different ways every time?
debatable
the dungeons get better (4 and 5 are the highlights), but you've pretty much already seen the whole overworld except for Lanayru (which is so-so in my opinion, nice music and interesting mechanic but it can get quite annoying)
as you'll notice soon, the boss battle recycling is out of hand in this game
basically, welcome to the "SS isn't a very good Zelda game" club
You gotta figure out HOW it works against the boss, and the items are often new.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
As said, this stuff is not worthwhile if the game is easy as hell to begin with.
So your real complaint isn't that there's not enough to find, it's that the game is easy?
Mr Touchdown
Member
Something that annoys me:
People say Zelda needs a new direction...
Then they say it needs to be exactly like something else...
What
People say Zelda needs a new direction...
Then they say it needs to be exactly like something else...
What
Beermeister
Banned
WW2.
disappeared
Banned
I'm just going to leave these here. This is what could have been for a modern Zelda title.
Instead, we get shit like Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword.
Instead, we get shit like Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword.
TalesOfWin
Banned
Why should we be satisfied with the same concept game after game? Would it hurt to switch up some things? And why are you seemingly offended over this, lol.
Yeah because you never get hints or something during the battle. A 5 year old could figure out to throw a bomb on a gaping dodongo.
They should experiment with Link's character, imo. We've been playing the same basic character since OoT. Arrows, bombs, shields, etc. In SS, we started to see a more athletic and faster Link and I think they should try to build on that. I've always felt like they should try to turn him into a Sheikah. It works because the Sheikah were chosen to protect the Royal family, so basically Zelda, and Link's main journeys almost always deal with protecting Zelda so why not take the risk and make him a Sheikah.
If you change Link, there's a better chance you change how he interacts with the world around him. WHich could be better.
If you change Link, there's a better chance you change how he interacts with the world around him. WHich could be better.
I like it when people can't come up with an actual response so they just go "lol u mad bro lol"
Yeah, I'm so bummed out we didn't get a cliff overlooking a forest or a cave with some pillars in it.
Davey Cakes
Member
Skyward Sword has moments like those, though. Looking over cliffs, going through dark catacombs, etc. You don't hold a lamp though.
I'm thinking of the painted backdrops in Faron Woods and the basement of Ancient Cistern, but there are other examples.
Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword are flawed games but people let their ideals of what a Zelda game should be cloud their judgment a bit. This is why no Zelda will ever satisfy everyone.
I'm thinking of the painted backdrops in Faron Woods and the basement of Ancient Cistern, but there are other examples.
Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword are flawed games but people let their ideals of what a Zelda game should be cloud their judgment a bit. This is why no Zelda will ever satisfy everyone.
You hold a lantern in Twilight Princess, though; but that game is shit because... uh...
edit: Yeah, the bottom one reminds me of Ancient Cistern, and TP had plenty of lantern stuff. Both games had vistas.
Madnesslink5
Member
As for the dungeon item vs boss discussion, I do believe they should use the new item somewhere in the battle, however it doesn't have to be as obvious/should be used in conjunction with some of your previously acquired items and such. For example after finding the bow instead of simply using it to shoot a flashing/brightly-coloured/obvious weakspot, there could be a fire in the boss room where you have to shoot the arrow through the fire to set part of the environment on fire to damage the boss. This would be less obvious if done correctly, the only kind of similar example I can think of is the grappling hook onto the dragon's tail in the WW, albeit that was still pretty obvious.
TalesOfWin
Banned
What more should I come up with? I already stated I didn't like the idea of having all future zeldas using the dungeon item to exploit the weakness of the dungeon boss. Geez.
So Skyward Sword, then?
And you skipped my reply to that. So good for you.
I thought part of the beauty of OOT was the themeing it had. I don't really have a theory as to why, but each of the child dungeons had you walking into some sort of mouth.
Then with the adult dungeons each one was a different depiction of the afterlife. The forest/fire/shadow temples are fairly obviously geared towards this. The spirit temple the clue is perhaps in the name and the water temple (though I haven't researched this) is likely some eastern mythology based on the designs.
Sorry to derail but it's something I'd recently thought about. Have the recent Zelda's become formulaic? No. If you want formulaic, look at the 2D ones. Bar twilight princess all of the 3D Zeldas do something completely new and interesting.
Madnesslink5
Member
Havn't played it in over a year, can't really remember the boss tactics. But I do seem to remember they involve using the item found in the dungeon pretty much on it's own. But yeah if Skyward Sword does have more unique boss tactics, then yes like Skyward Sword.
disappeared
Banned
My point is that the world design has suffered horribly since Ocarina of Time.
Yes. Souls has done a wonderful job in reaching for that classic fantasy look and feel. It's not quite perfect (lacking overall open traversal), but it's getting there.
Davey Cakes
Member
Now that I think about it, didn't Skyward Sword have a part where you shoot arrows through fire?
I disagree. The Sky aside, the three ground areas in SS were all designed very well and became even more diverse as they branched out. TP and its barren wasteland was the problem, and it was basically fixed, though in SS the Sky was like an even less interesting version of WW's ocean. So, you take the good with the bad.
TalesOfWin
Banned
No I didn't. I replied to someone else saying that it isn't hard to figure out what to do with the said item. Often you get hinted by Nintendo during the battle what to actually do.
What's interesting about the world design in those pictures? Because stuff like the Twilight Realm and Sea of Sand (or whatever it was called in Skyward Sword) are a hell of a lot more interesting than a cliff and a cave.
Black Door
Banned
it could have been drawings?
I would indeed enjoy a Zelda title modeled after Okami (but much harder, of course)
disappeared
Banned
I look at that old artwork and it gives me that warm adventure feeling in my gut. It feels a lot like I'd enjoy exploring that forest or traversing mountainsides or finding out how the hell to escape a dimly-lit dungeon. I haven't felt that with much of any of the modern Zeldas' environments. I guess it's just me.
Art.Menegatti
Member
A darker tone, like this concept art from Sacrilegium.
Or this...
And a lighting like the e3 demo:
Or this...
And a lighting like the e3 demo:
Serious question: Why do we have these threads every two weeks? All they do for me is articulate 1) Why Nintendo shouldn't listen to its fans when it comes to Zelda and 2) How completely different everybody's tastes in Zelda are. Something about Zelda threads in particular seems especially fruitless.
Davey Cakes
Member
It's kind of hard to translate the feelings evoked by artwork to the actual video game experience. That's the problem. Artwork gives an idea that sparks the imagination, but for the game itself to work you also have to add in gameplay mechanics, sensible world structure, scenario design, etc. I think recent Zeldas have done a decent job creating compelling worlds to explore, but of course there's always room for improvement, possibly by using the Wii U's hardware to create an even more open-world feel.
disappeared
Banned
True enough.
I would too, but those drawings look straight out of the 80s, the reception would be even worse than WW's. Whatever art style they choose has be more widely appealing.
So, Zelda is Zelda, Pokemon is Pokemon. That's the problem...for me.
The last pokemon I played was the one on the ds, black. It was the same as all the others I have played. You go to a town win badges, walk in bushes, find pokemon, level them up.
I'll just leave my pokemon idea here. It's just an idea, I just thought it would introduce some ideas instead of JOKE POST????
You could incorporate pokemon. NOT THE GAME WE ARE ALL USED TO, the pokemon themselves. They are characters right? As Link, you could find some of these new pokemon (in forests, fighting bosses, etc). These pokemon could have abilities such as fire, ice, blah, blah, blah. You can then have a pokemon, of your choice, be your companion instead of an annoying fucking fairy. This companion could then fight along side you, level up, help you solve puzzles. Fire ability opens ice...etc. You could also have a designated arena where you could fight your Zelda pokemon with others using that weird thing called the internet. All of this is organized by the game pad. Again, I can more readily see pokemon inhabiting the Zelda universe than the one they are now (fire breathing dragons, monsters, etc) Now, I didn't come up with this idea. I first saw this type of thing implemented in Everquest 2 and then WoW. You could find pokemon type monsters and collect them during your quests. You could then fight others in the game with your collected pokemon type monsters. I then thought, why couldn't the company that actually own the pokemon name introduce them into other franchises? The answer I've received in this thread is basically FUCK YOU, Zelda is Zelda and Pokemon is Pokemon!!!! Zelda is almost 30 years old and doesn't have a compelling story beyond Ganon steals Zelda, Link rescues her. Pokemon doesn't HAVE a fucking story. I don't understand why so many are adverse to changing up the same old zelda narative?
All speculation/suggestion threads are somewhat fruitless. People don't know what they want. They sometimes think they do but they definitely don't. I think we're fine in Nintendo's extremely capable hands to know what to do with Zelda next
From all of the Zeldas I played (played all of the 3D ones, ALttP, and the Four Swords Series) I was always satisfied, so I never really felt like Zelda needs a big change. I acknowledge the flaws each game has, and just play them because they're fun.
Wow, there is so much simplification here. The bolded I'm gonna respond to.
Bolded 1: Assassin's Creed has you as an Assassin who is limited and goes and follows some certain order to eventually assassinate some big guy. Ace Attorney has you first investigate, then present evidence (save and quit in between lol) and defend your client. You can simplify IPs like this easily, but it's the content within them. Each gen you get new Pokemon who have different abilities and stuff.
Bolded 2: The answer you received was not a "FUCK YOU". You received an answer saying that they are both different respective IPs and the idea of them merging is basically fanfic. It's like saying lets put Pokemon in Dark Souls 2 as monsters to kill. It sounds ridiculous, you can't deny it.
Bolded 3: Please, just stop. You can say that with Mario platformers, but that is part of the appeal, and no one really cares. Zelda isn't a damsel in distress at all, and the games don't have you rescue her as your main quest. The kidnapping does occur in the end in the end of some Zelda games, but to say that the story is nothing beyond that is blasphemy. You said you played Pokemon Black, yet you apparently missed the big thing about it, the story. Even then, the other games are targeted towards kids. They have a simple story where the bad guys want to use the power of the legendary Pokemon to take over the world (or cleanse the world due to the fact they aren't satisfied with the world).
Wow, there is so much simplification here. The bolded I'm gonna respond to.
Bolded 1: Assassin's Creed has you as an Assassin who is limited and goes and follows some certain order to eventually assassinate some big guy. Ace Attorney has you first investigate, then present evidence (save and quit in between lol) and defend your client. You can simplify IPs like this easily, but it's the content within them. Each gen you get new Pokemon who have different abilities and stuff.
Bolded 2: The answer you received was not a "FUCK YOU". You received an answer saying that they are both different respective IPs and the idea of them merging is basically fanfic. It's like saying lets put Pokemon in Dark Souls 2 as monsters to kill. It sounds ridiculous, you can't deny it.
Bolded 3: Please, just stop. You can say that with Mario platformers, but that is part of the appeal, and no one really cares. Zelda isn't a damsel in distress at all, and the games don't have you rescue her as your main quest. The kidnapping does occur in the end in the end of some Zelda games, but to say that the story is nothing beyond that is blasphemy. You said you played Pokemon Black, yet you apparently missed the big thing about it, the story. Even then, the other games are targeted towards kids. They have a simple story where the bad guys want to use the power of the legendary Pokemon to take over the world (or cleanse the world due to the fact they aren't satisfied with the world).
Yes there is a lot of classic Zelda in Dark Souls and it's awesome. I wouldn't really want Zelda to turn into DS though. Personally I'd want it to go even more old-school than that and really try to recapture the Zelda 1 feel but with a modern take, basically what SM3DL does to classic Mario gameplay.
I could dig that if it were also another Four Swords game. There should be more Four Swords games and people who don't think so are people who don't have friends.
Yeah, that would be interesting but nintendo won't alienate their core fanbase.
God, I want so much Four Swords. Put it on Wii U. One person with the gamepad and the rest on 3DSes. Or one on the gamepad and one on the TV screen.
If Zelda really needs a new formula, how about a new IP? Or maybe a more action-oriented spin-off starring a reincarnation of Ganondorf before he's corrupted by Demise or something. It would really develop the characters a bit more.
If it's not sticking to a basic formula, it's not TLOZ. Not the main series anyway.
I don't want a reboot, reboots are more about cashing in on a brand rather than about making a game worth buying. I think Nintendo understands that.
If it's not sticking to a basic formula, it's not TLOZ. Not the main series anyway.
I don't want a reboot, reboots are more about cashing in on a brand rather than about making a game worth buying. I think Nintendo understands that.
MvmntInGrn
Member
As enticing as a massive truly open-world Zelda title is I think I'd prefer having fewer but very well designed dungeons over countless minimally branching repetitive dungeons hidden throughout. I remember a few small micro-dungeons in TP (one by Kakariko and one by Lake Hylia) that were both incredibly bland and boring but they both show you what you get when the game becomes non-linear (because neither assume you have specific items other than maybe Bombs).
Zelda post ALTTP is all about designing around your new tools and I don't think this design philosophy would hold up on a large Elder Scrolls like scale or with truly non-linear design. Puzzles would have to be limited to ideas that exist only within that dungeon. If you cannot assume the player has a Bow you cannot put a bow-switch anywhere but the dungeon you received the bow in. You could make the player leave areas unfinished but ultimately there would be a linear best-method way to approach the dungeons so why make it non-linear at all?
A Zelda game as it exists now can only go on so long as you have new tools/mechanics to push it forward. If you remove them you'll need to substitute some other form of progression. I really don't think anyone really wants to abandon tool/puzzle gameplay for RPG stats do they?
Maybe a design that slowly opens up (like if OOT had let you do the first 3 dungeons in any order before opening another set) could work (lets the designers assume certain things of the player) But all-out Elder Scrolls wouldn't do the series any favors.
(I know you didn't mention Elder Scrolls but I see it show up often in Zelda Open-world wishlists)
Majora's Mask has a arrow-through-fire puzzle in the first dungeon (not combat but yeah).
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
Skyward sword kicks this shits ass. The first piece is just a field. The second piece of artwork looks like randomly generated Elder Scrolls dungeon #10031.
Seriously, SS has the most interesting world design in any Zelda game since ALTTP. The game was held back by its infuriating guide system, not level or world design.
Dion Blaster
Member
I guess by coherent I meant connected.
Mario 2 is the same game as Mario 1, you run and jump in both!
Pokemon changes:
Gen II: 2 new pokemon types: Dark and Steel. Night and Day cycle. Hold items.
Gen III: Abilities, berries, natures, double battles, contests
Gen IV: Physical/Special split (MAJOR OVERHAUL), online battles and trades, underground
Gen V: Triple battles, rotation battles, dream world, interesting plot
Every generation: new pokemon, new type combos, new moves, alterations to old pokemon and moves, new regions, new bosses
Dion Blaster
Member
I'm pretty sure Ocarina has you in a dungeon almost instantly. And not a stealth segment like Wind Waker.
Supermanisdead
Member
Or this...
This is basically - almost exactly - Twilight Princess' Lost Woods.
Well if you're talking about the original Japanese Super Mario Bros 2 that's pretty much true; it's the laziest sequel Nintendo has ever made
GillianSeed79
Member
What I would love from a re-imagining of Zelda is a throw back to the minimalism and open world freedom of the original Zelda on the NES. Something like SoTC's overworld and simple mechanics. You get a shield, bow and a sword and that's it. I'd love a scenario where you could conquer any dungeon you wanted right out of the gate. Maybe certain tools or power ups would make conquering certain dungeons easier or open shortcuts ala Metroid, but it should the case that you can tackle any dungeon at any given point. I really don't like you use the tool you got from the last dungeon to beat the next dungeon game mechanic that they've been using for far too long.
As for tone, I'd like something a little more darker. Not super dark like Dark Souls, but again, something similar to SoTC, Grimm Fairy Tale-ish or late 1980s or early 1990s fantasy anime style.
As for tone, I'd like something a little more darker. Not super dark like Dark Souls, but again, something similar to SoTC, Grimm Fairy Tale-ish or late 1980s or early 1990s fantasy anime style.
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