Ghost_Protocol
Member
Asking for a "darker" Zelda is ridiculous people. It's never going to happen. Just move on to Demon's/Dark Souls like everyone else. It's a much better series.
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Is the Zelda series REALLY formulaic? Is it in need of an overhaul?
- Thread starter mooooose
- Start date
Joseph Merrick
Member
I want them to pretty much scrap all the OOT systems already. go completely back to the drawing board. make it much more simple to get into the actual game again. I don't want to sit through hours of intro to story and controls garbage for every new zelda. they should take a look at zelda 1 and zelda 2 and go from there. on the new zelda I want to be actually playing the game within seconds of hitting the start button. boom, you're link, you're in the world. you're looking around and exploring immediatly. you find a town or whatever and talk to people to understand what's going on. there's no need for the game to force feed you the story and have all the stupid interface crap and menus the zelda games have now. everything you do and find out in the game should be of your own doing. zelda games now are pathetically cramped and linear.
DeviousAngel
Member
Don't forget option three:
Zelda needs to be more like... Zelda.
Either way we are stuck in a vicious cycle.
Dion Blaster
Member
I still don't really see the similarities besides the lock-on combat.
I was obviously talking about Mario USA, but even if I wasn't, Mario 2 JP has completely new levels, poison mushrooms, Luigi controls differently from Mario, wind, etc. http://www.mariowiki.com/Super_Mario_Bros.:_The_Lost_Levels#Differences_and_Additional_Features
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
I want it to be less linear, less hand holdie, with more emphasis on exploration. Oh, and 2D.
Kinda like the original game.
Kinda like the original game.
How could they possibly have overlooked the Call of Duty series? Or Medal of Honor? Or Halo? Or Uncharted, even?
MvmntInGrn
Member
There really aren't any. Could maybe say the both have dungeons or something but the general gameplay is very different between them aside from Lock-on being a feature. Their combat isn't even very similar (Zelda enemies are one-hit or more pattern-y in nature usually).
While I'm unsure how I'd compare them as far as best/worst goes, SMB2 JP did more make the levels more complex an interesting than SMG2 did with SMGs gameplay
A
A More Normal Bird
Unconfirmed Member
I feel that in a constantly advancing medium such as videogames, riffing on the same formula once every 4 years or so is perfectly acceptable.
Dark Souls is not like modern Zelda games, but I find it similar to Zelda 1 through 3, in the sense you had more liberty to explore, the story was more obscure, and the games didn't tell you what to do all the time.
DeviousAngel
Member
Oooooh. That's... very subjective... And subjectivity gets people to forget their manners here on neoGAF.
PS: in all seriousness there's a hint of truth behind this man's otherwise crude words. Zelda changes and evolves; every game is different from the last, which is one aspect of the franchise I personally appreciate. Sometimes it jives with you, and sometimes it doesn't. Honestly, if you don't like the newest title, just go and play a game that you actually enjoy and wait for the next, inevitable entry into the series. We all know it's coming.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
I always scratch my head when people say they want Zelda like dark souls..I dont get it at all.
Jake Tower
Banned
Zelda is kind of the same since the first one
3 Dungeon, 1 Big Dungeon, 6-8 Temple, Last dungeon.
They added more dungeons, but the principle is the same most of the time.
I actually liked Wind Waker and Skyward Sword more since they broke that part up.
Everybody know that the NES had hard game to boost the replay value and to make it hard to rent games. they forced people to buy the game so that they can play until they can beat it.
Its artificial value, and that's why Zelda 2 is the worst of the series. Difficulty as padding.
3 Dungeon, 1 Big Dungeon, 6-8 Temple, Last dungeon.
They added more dungeons, but the principle is the same most of the time.
I actually liked Wind Waker and Skyward Sword more since they broke that part up.
Everybody know that the NES had hard game to boost the replay value and to make it hard to rent games. they forced people to buy the game so that they can play until they can beat it.
Its artificial value, and that's why Zelda 2 is the worst of the series. Difficulty as padding.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
I could see taking little things from dark souls like the ability to go anywhere unprepared but the whole make it like dark souls makes me question if people has actually played the damn game.
Late reply, but I DID explore the town AND talk to all of the people. Here's the part you may not get - I didn't enjoy the writing, or what the game was throwing at me. I found it boring and a chore to get through.
Also, I did not say in a dungeon, I said going toward a dungeon. That's typically when modern Zelda games have decided you can wear your big boy pants and play by yourself. Of course, in Skyward Sword, that moment never actually comes (cue your sword repeating everything to make sure what you understood the obvious directions the NPC gave you, cue a big blinking icon asking you to try out the dowsing rod).
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
One must wonder how much the "make it like dark souls" comments are due to flavor of the week syndrome - Dark Souls is currently the hot thing for anything resembling an action-RPG. And it's understandable to a degree. People want things to be like whatever they currently like most. It's especially prevalent in gaming. Like first person shooters the most? Odds are, you tend to think every game is better in first person, and will cite whatever reasons make you like first person games the most.
Not that there's nothing a Zelda title couldn't possibly borrow from a Souls game, as good ideas are good ideas. But just saying "make it like Dark Souls" isn't really helpful IMO. That betrays more adherence to trendiness than solid suggestions for how Zelda could be better.
Not that there's nothing a Zelda title couldn't possibly borrow from a Souls game, as good ideas are good ideas. But just saying "make it like Dark Souls" isn't really helpful IMO. That betrays more adherence to trendiness than solid suggestions for how Zelda could be better.
Oh look, Dark/Demons Souls everywhere in a Zelda thread. I cant wait for the honeymoon period on these games to die off so people stop namedropping it in every fucking thread
sigh
sigh
Synth_floyd
Banned
Dark Souls is good because it's old school in its approach. It is open ended, no hand holding, very little explanation. It's up to YOU the player to figure everything out. Other games today don't have that kind of satisfying exploration and discovery elements. Everything is CoD style where it says at the top of the screen exactly where you need to go and exactly what you need to do.
it's been the flavor of the week
since september 2011!
dark souls does zelda better than zelda. not to say it's perfect, but it's the DIRECTION I'd like to see future Zelda titles go in.
modern zelda overworlds, for example, ain't got shit on dark souls. THAT'S a next gen zelda overworld done right, large but filled with secrets and things to do.
x Lord Revan x
Neo Member
Personally, I really do think they've become far too formulaic. Not that it is a bad thing, but the games don't feel as though they've grown enough. The worlds feel so barren and empty. If it was given more life to the world around it, I don't think I'd have such an issue with their series. Windwaker really felt fresh, but since then they've been so meh.
Except that from every description I've read of Dark Souls it does nothing close to Zelda, at all, the game is more similar to Pokemon or Monster Hunter than Zelda.
Quintessential Zelda is the last dungeon of Skyward Sword, if you didn't think it was one of the most brilliantly designed level in the series and arguable one of the best in all gaming then Zelda is obviously not for you.
I might approve. But, sorry, nope, the best designed dungeon in all zelda series?
This might go to...
Winterfang
Banned
I wish Zelda was a tiny bit more Fable like. In the sense of being able to date/marry people and buy houses. I always find that stuff fun.
Sorry but... no. Do I really have to explain why?
Obsidian would probably take existing canon and mold it to their liking. Double Fine would just make something funny. At any rate I'd sooner suggest to someone else unless it was a co-development thing.
That's why I try to articulate why, and honestly it's mainly just seamless design (that Wind Waker had dabbled in) and that sense of exploration (that Zelda HAD at the start) that I want. Going darker, harder, whatever in the same manner as Dark Souls isn't what I'd want, closest is maybe a bit more bite to combat (Skyward Sword did some of that) and for it to be dark in a way that older artwork was: not REALLY dark, more like (80s?) cartoon dark.
There is truth though in that people don't know what they want, and that's why I avoid really wanting too much that's specific. Any of the more specific ideas may well be terrible, I do know if nothing else I want that sense of exploration back, and making it less linear is an important first step. I suspect they'd need to change how they handle guide characters too, at the very least everything Fi was must be avoided.
Let's be honest: at least it's a better choice for "mature Zelda" than Darksiders is.
Hell, Twilight Princess is a better option for "mature Zelda" than Darksiders is.
Hematocryal
Banned
Any game sounds repetitive when you make it sound like this:
Halo:shoot enemies, storyline
Halo 2: shoot new enemies, different story
Etc.
Lol, it just depends on what you like. If you like zelda those mild changes are why you play it, there's no need to introduce guns and space battles haha. However a change I'd like is stellar voice acting and a SUPER DARK mature theme. In all the games Link is never at his lowest point. I would love a game where Zelda dies at the beginning where it's a story of redemption,with a rugged dark link, internally conflicted, a side if the happy go lucky hero we've never see. With a very dark and bombastic musical score... Lol a boy can dream can't he?! XD that's what I'd like to see.
Halo:shoot enemies, storyline
Halo 2: shoot new enemies, different story
Etc.
Lol, it just depends on what you like. If you like zelda those mild changes are why you play it, there's no need to introduce guns and space battles haha. However a change I'd like is stellar voice acting and a SUPER DARK mature theme. In all the games Link is never at his lowest point. I would love a game where Zelda dies at the beginning where it's a story of redemption,with a rugged dark link, internally conflicted, a side if the happy go lucky hero we've never see. With a very dark and bombastic musical score... Lol a boy can dream can't he?! XD that's what I'd like to see.
Romars202129
Member
Personally, I'm new to this arguement, but I feel the same way as the Dark Souls people. I'm a long time zelda fan btw, Oot is my shit! And I cut my teeth on the original Zelda, But Dark Souls really scratches the same itch for me. They just need a town/npc system in Dark Souls and I may never look back!
Zelda needs to go back to it's roots. Make it more about gameplay, and stop trying to tell a stupid story. Freedom and subtlety is what gave the original's their power.
Frankly, anyone who doesn't think the series has gone all downhill from Majora... hasn't played Majora.
Escape Goat
Member
How have the Zelda games sold? If they're doing well there really isn't any incentive for them to mess with the formula. I just wish they'd stop using quirky art and gimmicky controls.
I might approve. But, sorry, nope, the best designed dungeon in all zelda series?
This might go to...
Psssshaw. Best dungeon in Zelda was Twilight Princess' Snowpeak Manor.
I definitely feel like Zelda games are too formulaic. The formula of going from dungeon to dungeon, of finding keys and key items, etc is all too obvious. Maybe its because I've played so many Zelda games before but at this point I feel like knowing exactly how the game is going to proceed hurts my enjoyment of it. Even though the Zelda franchise has not become an annual serial like other popular series when a new Zelda game comes out it already begins to feel "stale" in a way. Usually taking a good few years between entries helps a series keep a sense of freshness but with the Zelda franchise its the exact opposite for me. I'd love to think the 3ds and Wii U entries will be radically different but they most likely will not. I remember Nintendo talking up how different Skyward Sword would be but in the end it just felt like a retread of the classic Zelda formula with a little different dressing.
so you haven't played it
no one is saying zelda has to become dark souls 1:1. that's silly. but it's also silly to deny that the game shares many elements with zelda, specifically the earlier games. some things I'd like to see aonuma ape from dark souls:
-dark souls' overworld is infinitely more interesting and fun to explore than any zelda in the past 10 years. it absolutely has a zelda feel, much more akin to zelda 1 or even lttp.
-it has a solid difficulty. I don't believe Nintendo would ever go back to NES/SNES Zelda difficulty, but the last few efforts have been pitifully easy imo.
-fantastic combat. some new stuff like parrying was introduced in skyward sword feels like baby mode in comparison to dark souls.
-demanding, yet rewarding use of currency. a metric fuck ton of weapons/equipment to buy/upgrade. again, skyward sword took a baby step in this direction with the upgradable swords/shields... there needs to be more! tunics, caps, swords, shields, bows, boots... everything should be upgradable. give me a reason to use these fucking rupees! dark souls pulls this off masterfully. the list of crazy shit to find/upgrade is never ending.
-minimalist story. I adore the minimalist story in Dark Souls. Allows you to interpret it however you like. I gave my dude pink hair, called him Link, and pretended I was playing a Zelda game. Shit was awesome. I'd love to see a more simple story return in the next Zelda game. Ganon kidnaps Zelda. Link, rescue that shit. done. doesn't need to get more complex than that. and it sure as fuck doesn't need...
-forced tutorials, handholding and partner characters. dark souls proudly yells FUCK THAT BULLSHIT to all those things, and subscribes to the megaman x ideology of teaching the player how to play the game. a beautiful, gradual difficulty curve, teaching the player how to play as you go. no fi required.
-OH AND IT SHOULD BE DARK CAUSE DARK=AWESOME 200% OF THE TIME
IN DEFENSE OF ZELDA: the Zelda team still makes kick ass dungeons. from software doesn't even come close. zelda dungeons + dat nintendo polish + some of the best dark souls has to offer = the greatest game ever made
last dungeon of skyward sword was okay, not even the best dungeon in the game
thepainlibrary
Neo Member
i love this tho
>"skyward sword sucked"
>"but i had fun"
>"It still sucks"
>"skyward sword sucked"
>"but i had fun"
>"It still sucks"
Romars202129
Member
Boy, did this mook stray into unfamiliar territory. Hey, did you know you're a meme, guy? His name is Link, you tard.
CielTynave
Member
The only thing I'd like added is better combat and more story focused side quests like Majora's Mask, because setting wise Zelda is just a lot more unique and interesting than most other games.
The Living Tribunal
Member
Ooh, sorry. We were looking for Stone Tower Temple, but thanks for playing.
Ooh, sorry. We were looking for Stone Tower Temple, but thanks for playing.
Stone Tower Temple is okay, except you have to see that creepy ass Link face repeatedly and it just gets WEIRD from there.
Shin Kojima
Banned
I would like them to go back to their roots more, so I guess indeed make it more like the Souls games.
I would also like them to ditch that stupid hack Ganondorf and just go back to original blue pig Ganon.
Seriously, fuck Ganondorf.
I would also like them to ditch that stupid hack Ganondorf and just go back to original blue pig Ganon.
Seriously, fuck Ganondorf.
RockmanWhore
Member
The final dungeon in Skyward Sword (Sky Keep) was pretty awesome too. Dungeon structure spoiler :
It's the dungeons in which you have to move rooms like a giant sliding puzzle
Bjoern the Smexy
Member
I definitely feel like God of War games are too formulaic. The formula of going from place to place, of finding weapons and key items, etc is all too obvious. Maybe its because I've played so many God of War games before but at this point I feel like knowing exactly how the game is going to proceed hurts my enjoyment of it. Even though the God of War franchise has not become an annual serial like other popular series when a new God of War game comes out it already begins to feel "stale" in a way. Usually taking a good few years between entries helps a series keep a sense of freshness but with the God of War franchise its the exact opposite for me. I'd love to think the PSVita and PlayStation 4 entries will be radically different but they most likely will not. I remember Santa Monica talking up how different God of War Ascension would be but in the end it'll just feel like a retread of the classic God of War formula with a little different dressing.
Or long story short: You can say that about MANY popular game series. Zelda isn't the exception to that rule, but what you said about what bothers you about the Zelda franchise is pretty much what makes a Zelda game a Zelda game. There's more to that obviously, but if you're unsatisfied with the core gameplay then maybe you should give up on the series.
(Also I love God of War, just sayin')
Spieler Eins
Member
Welcome to Majoras Mask? Game's supposed to be creepy. And thank god for that.
But yeah, Snowpeak Manor is among the best. Twilight Princess' dungeons in general.
Demon's Souls didn't teach you how to play through level design. It just expected you to push buttons and figure it out yourself, look up a wiki, or ask a friend.
I feel that the Zelda fan base is divided by the time period in which they were introduced to the series. This is especially prevalent when we look at the 2D/3D entries.
I myself, started off with OoT, which can be said to be more "linear/formulaic" than the past games. This explains why I never really understood the notion of wanting more exploration and freedom (Ala Dark Souls) in Zelda games. To me, it's more about the dungeons and lore/story.
I have tried the 2D Zelda iterations, but have only truly enjoyed LA and the Oracle twins (Yes, I dislike LttP, surprise surprise).
I do, however, agree with adding more engaging quests. The process of obtaining the biggoron sword and plethora of masks were excellently handled.
The Zelda development team faces an upward slope if they want to satisfy both sides of the party. I doubt they'll able to do so, but I'm excited to see what they have planned.
Bring on the HD Zelda!
I myself, started off with OoT, which can be said to be more "linear/formulaic" than the past games. This explains why I never really understood the notion of wanting more exploration and freedom (Ala Dark Souls) in Zelda games. To me, it's more about the dungeons and lore/story.
I have tried the 2D Zelda iterations, but have only truly enjoyed LA and the Oracle twins (Yes, I dislike LttP, surprise surprise).
I do, however, agree with adding more engaging quests. The process of obtaining the biggoron sword and plethora of masks were excellently handled.
The Zelda development team faces an upward slope if they want to satisfy both sides of the party. I doubt they'll able to do so, but I'm excited to see what they have planned.
Bring on the HD Zelda!
Bjoern the Smexy
Member
Not to say you're wrong, but I started with the 2D Zeldas (Played Zelda I first, then owned LttP and LA sometime later and played through them) and I still like all the other Zelda games for what they're doing.
Skyward Sword is, like, my favorite Zelda ever (until a better one comes along).
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