NullPointer
Member
I wish.
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CliffyB on Saints Row: Lose the gimps and dildos to beat GTA
- Thread starter SolidSnakex
- Start date
See, this is the stuff I'm talking about. SMH.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Not every game is striving to be precisely like the frontrunner in each genre. In fact, it's safe to say Saint's Row was specifically tailored to fill a niche not served by the GTAs of the world - the less serious, non-Oscar worthy sandbox title. It's not about whether or not a game can be like another, it's about whether or not the game succeeds in what it is trying to accomplish. To that end, Saint's Row became quite the cultural phenomenon itself. Again, stripping away the uniqueness in search of a broader base fails far, far more often than it succeeds. In this particular case, stripping away the ribald humor certainly would've lead to less exposure and far, far less word of mouth.
Can Crusher
Banned
Somethings are better left out of the marketing material, no doubt.
I wouldn't want Saints Row to change its attitude, but I think it's in need of better writing. Aside from it, I don't agree with Cliff that it needs to lose the gimps and dildos.
Regarding the "gf walks in and you are embarrassed", well I think that entirely depends on the relationship, the guy and the girl. There's no reason to feel embarrassed for it, it's a joke.
I wouldn't want Saints Row to change its attitude, but I think it's in need of better writing. Aside from it, I don't agree with Cliff that it needs to lose the gimps and dildos.
Regarding the "gf walks in and you are embarrassed", well I think that entirely depends on the relationship, the guy and the girl. There's no reason to feel embarrassed for it, it's a joke.
I don't think it's fair to put Unreal in the same category as Gears.
The UT franchise was actively going for ridiculous. It wasn't trying to be serious, much like Saint's Row isn't. It was a multiplayer only game anyway so it's not like it was ever pretending to be anything else.
You had cows with rocket launchers as a selectable character fighting on an asteroid orbiting the Earth. The entire game was oriented around audacious environments.
On the other hand, Gears was trying pretty hard to be a grim serious story at all times. So I think the criticism is more valid there.
You're missing my prior point about American culture. I completely agree with you that killing is worse than a sex toy. But most Americans are so uptight due to their Puritan history that you have a culture that will show heads exploding on primetime TV over a side boob.
I didn't make these rules. It's fucked up, but it's how it is, sadly.
The_Hitcher89
Member
Acronyms are immature
At the root of it all this is about the difference between over the top sexual versus violent content and America's fucked up feelings about it.
I'm merely the messenger here. Like I said before, I personally find the dildo funny, but I believe that in America it's a limiting factor. That's all.
I'm merely the messenger here. Like I said before, I personally find the dildo funny, but I believe that in America it's a limiting factor. That's all.
Really Cliff? You start your post by claiming you are just a person with an opinion, and end by pretty much saying your opinion is worth more somehow because you are famous.
When you use celebrity status to prop up your opinion with credibility, it is worth questioning if any of the things you are famous for actually lend credibility to your arguments. When Hollywood actors go on talk shows to talk about politics, audiences can (and should) ask "what does this person know about politics, and why should I trust their opinions over anyone else in the world?"
So yeah, the fact that you have made games in the past that weren't the height of maturity and social commentary doesn't automatically mean your opinions on these subjects are invalid. But it does mean that you have no credibility on the subject, and thus your opinions have no more value than any other Joe Schmoe on the street.
x Lord Revan x
Neo Member
Obviously, the man himself has made his own statement, but honestly, I do think the immaturity in Saint's Row holds it back.
Gaming is an artform. Not going to have that argument here, but it is a young artform. Many people few video games as just video games. They don't see that they have the potential to impact individuals as much as a book, piece of art, song, or film can. It isn't achieved that level of critical success where people look at a game and see something more meaningful.
Games like The Walking Dead, Journey, and Red Dead Redemption are (in my opinion) examples of titles that have begun to really transcend the slap-on-title of "game" and achieved more critical praise of being "experiences." They really help elevate the idea that games are art forms to be praised and appreciated.
I think Cliffy is just under the impression that Volition has the ability to create a title like that. Their gameplay and wild amount of energy present in the Saints Row series is unmatched. They could take that energy, cut the hampering elements like the aforementioned "toy" and craft something worthy of more critical praise from the masses. Right now, that is keeping them as a "game," something easily ignored by the masses due to our culture against explicit sexuality. Not that censorship is the right answer, but cutting it could help them develop a game that helps games gain more respect as an artform.
Gaming is an artform. Not going to have that argument here, but it is a young artform. Many people few video games as just video games. They don't see that they have the potential to impact individuals as much as a book, piece of art, song, or film can. It isn't achieved that level of critical success where people look at a game and see something more meaningful.
Games like The Walking Dead, Journey, and Red Dead Redemption are (in my opinion) examples of titles that have begun to really transcend the slap-on-title of "game" and achieved more critical praise of being "experiences." They really help elevate the idea that games are art forms to be praised and appreciated.
I think Cliffy is just under the impression that Volition has the ability to create a title like that. Their gameplay and wild amount of energy present in the Saints Row series is unmatched. They could take that energy, cut the hampering elements like the aforementioned "toy" and craft something worthy of more critical praise from the masses. Right now, that is keeping them as a "game," something easily ignored by the masses due to our culture against explicit sexuality. Not that censorship is the right answer, but cutting it could help them develop a game that helps games gain more respect as an artform.
Vire
Member
At all times? Tell that to the entire first act of Gears 3 where Cole goes back to the stadium and plants the bomb. That was the greatest thing in the entire franchise, absolutely hilarious and well done.
I'm pretty sure if Cliff wanted to, he could set forth a game as serious as The Last of Us.
jim-jam bongs
Member
Again, the US is only a small part of the world. You don't necessarily need to pander to an attitude you clearly don't agree with.
Come to Australia Cliff, I'll buy you a beer and we can talk about how amazing the level design was in Unreal.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
I find it amusing that when I actually show up to the thread the biggest trolls suddenly vanish.
Come at me, bro.
SR3 is one of the few AAA (AA, whatever it is) crime action games that goes off the rails a bit in terms of themes and humor.
The most disagreeable part of your take is that you think it would be better if that rare game bails on all of that to be safer and more in line with common entertainment depictions of crime action. We already have a problem with games emulating the same conventions and content we see in movies and TV.
No, the most disagreeable part is the reason why- because it's embarrassing to the industry, or for the player if his wife catches him playing it. I couldn't think of a worse reason.
Red Chocobo
Banned
Add gimps and dildos to GTA and it might be able to compete with Saints Row.
Actors talking about politics isn't a proper comparison. I'm not commenting on politics. I'm commenting on a medium in which I've worked for 20 years. Actors with no political experience talking about politics is hardly the same thing.
I could do without the dildo, that was a lame joke, and I'd agree that there was too much focus on that in the pre-release marketing. It's one of the things that turned me off of Saints Row until I heard a lot of other positive things post-release. But leave the gimps! They were fantastic. Racing down the streets of Steelport, being chased by gimps carrying rickshaws, shooting back at the rickshaws and watching them explode was one of my favourite things in gaming that year. Nothing captured the ridiculous tone of Saints Row the Third quite like that.
Volition does have the ability to create a title like that.
It's called Freespace 2. And it's more mature than 99% of any video game stories. Those who have played it will no doubt agree.
Just because they can make a serious story though, doesn't mean they should. They've found a market with Saint's Row, so they should stick to that.
I've only played Gears 1 and 2, so I'm going off that. I don't recall any moments in those games where the games didn't take themselves seriously.
Dark Octave
Banned
I don't know man, if Sleeping Dogs is Heat then Saints Row the Third is Austin Powers.
I don't see anything wrong with that and we have plenty of open world Heats.
I don't see anything wrong with that and we have plenty of open world Heats.
Omegasquash
Member
I get it, your opinion is yours and you're welcome to it...that's what twitter is for, mostly. The point I see that's worth debating is that you say the dildo/gimp stuff keeps the genre back. I would put forward that chainsawing a fool in half does the same. It's difference of opinion. And for transparency, I like doing both.
And this is GAF, dude. Debates over here are...passionate.
Now, as to my earlier question. Have you found a gig yet? I want to see what's next, because I've put out for most of what you've...put out.
How would that make GTA any better? Plus I would say that it took 3 Saint's Row games just to be better than one GTA game. I'm willing to bet GTA V will smoke anything Saint's Row related out of the water.
Think he just wants to cut out certain "Oh look at us, we're trying to be edgy" humor elements like the dildos because it's quite frankly embarrassing. Game can still be crazy and over the top without it and you could take it a bit more serious.
Apparently my new gig is "Troll Hunter."
The reason why I cited your previous work on Gears of War and the content therein was because I didn't think your opinion was valid in the first place.
I think you should take a look at what jim-jam bongs is saying to see where we're coming from and why you're off-base on this one.
Vire
Member
Maybe it's that he's disappointed that Volition resorted to Dildo jokes because he feels that they are much much more capable of something with a greater emotional resonance or impact.
It's like if Martin Scorsese decided to do Romantic Comedies for the rest of his life. Could he? Sure, but why waste the talent?
At least that's what I'm getting from his view point.
But saints row isn't trying to be serious.
XANDER CAGE
Member
The_Hitcher89
Member
They did. It was called Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas and its so much better than any Sainst Row game, not to mention GTAIV, it makes me sad for open world crime games
Gozer the Gozerian
Member
I'm fine with the criticism of the type of humor used in SR but the idea that it should drop the comedy focus and be some serious crime story is awful.
Can Crusher
Banned
I think one of the bigger points is, whether Saints Row is even supposed to "beat" GTA.
I think finding ways to make Saints Row bigger while still remaining the spirit of the series would be a more interesting challenge.
Abandoning it all, and going for a Collateral type of feel just to go head to head with GTA seems uninteresting. Unless that's what Volition want.
I think finding ways to make Saints Row bigger while still remaining the spirit of the series would be a more interesting challenge.
Abandoning it all, and going for a Collateral type of feel just to go head to head with GTA seems uninteresting. Unless that's what Volition want.
NullPointer
Member
That may be part of the reason the game is so fun for so many. It doesn't have those puritan hangups, and it doesn't take itself seriously, not even a little bit.
Hence the problem with you're argument and why all the ruckus. You want saints row to be something it's not, which is fine, but to follow that with saying that it NOT being what you suggest is what's holding it back or what's hurting it...
I can't agree, at least not with this game.
You know coming in, just from the first 15 minutes, this is no GTA, no Michael Mann "the game" but with dildos and gimps. The game isn't anything if not consistent in theme. So, if we're to believe that dildos and gimps are holding back a game that also sports killer cat men, juiced up brolic monsters, streaking, voltron-esque space crafts, human surfing and any/every other kind of juvenile staple you can think of, then so does the rest of that stuff.
This tells me you don't want Saint Row without dildos and gimps. You don't want Saints Row.
Loved the first two Gears games by the way
A game with an actual focus on a mature and well written story (Planescape Torment, Freespace 2, Alpha Protocol) usually does not sell well. That says a lot more about the state of the current industry than it does about the game itself.
What passes off for mature these days is Call of Duty.
speculawyer
Member
Perhaps he should tell us how he could have made Bulletstorm more successful.
Mr. Enigma
Member
What a tool-esque viewpoint. If you're married to somebody you'd be embarassed playing video games in front of, I think you made a bigger incorrect decision than the game you're playing.
I love you, but fuck off here, Cliff.
You love us.
I'm seeing 'limiting' and 'holding back' - but what is this in reference to? The designers had an idea that they wanted to get into gamers' hands, and it was successful.
Why hold back from an idea that you want to share?
Why back down to the mainstream when you can be edgy and still be successful?
This is why questioning the dildo doesn't make sense. It didn't do anything bad, as far as I can tell.
Why hold back from an idea that you want to share?
Why back down to the mainstream when you can be edgy and still be successful?
This is why questioning the dildo doesn't make sense. It didn't do anything bad, as far as I can tell.
There is room for "Immature Non Serious Games" as there is for "Serious Games" Saints Row was never serious and I think The Third simply went all ballistic on over the top. The reception was mostly positive and people seem to have embraced the crazy stuff on the game. Taking away stuff might not be the answer the answer for growth on the game but if people wanted a little bit more serious games there are more options like GTA, Sleeping Dogs, etc.
I think Saints Row to grow itself its get a bit more of direction since it was a bit all over the place but itself was a great game and it was refreshing to see things you thought you wouldnt see happening on the genre. GTA its taking itself somewhat seriously in some aspects and so does other. Let this be the randomness of the bunch.
I dont exactly disagree with CliffyB but don't completely agree. They can tone down things a bit but to the point of losing some elements/things I think it would basically lose some of the fanbase created with the last game that was in for some of that stuff.
I think Saints Row to grow itself its get a bit more of direction since it was a bit all over the place but itself was a great game and it was refreshing to see things you thought you wouldnt see happening on the genre. GTA its taking itself somewhat seriously in some aspects and so does other. Let this be the randomness of the bunch.
I dont exactly disagree with CliffyB but don't completely agree. They can tone down things a bit but to the point of losing some elements/things I think it would basically lose some of the fanbase created with the last game that was in for some of that stuff.
Vire
Member
Remember, we love posting complaints about video games more than actually playing them.
Have to keeps standards!
Hey--Bulletstorm was a great game.
Tears For Fears
Banned
Like I'm going to take the opinion of someone who looks like their mom still dresses them. Fucking try hard. Cliffy when you grow a pair lets get a boxing match going.