Any noticeable difference that can't be replicated on another system, I would consider blowing it out of the water. WiiU probably won't have any graphical advantages; just graphical disadvantages. I think people shitting on the WiiU are wrong, but I also think blind optimism is wrong too. The WiiU is a great system and I think it'll do fine against the other systems, but you can't compare them graphically and expect the WiiU to come out on top. Our realistic expectations for the WiiU in terms of flops is ~350 GFLOPS. IF we multiply that by 3, it'd still get shit on by Durango, not to mention Orbis. It can compete with them, in the way a college basketball team can compete with an NBA team, but that doesn't mean that it'd really be competitive. I mean honestly, I don't care if the the other systems are only 1.5x stronger than the WiiU. It'd still be weaker, probably pretty noticeably so. I'm not saying the other systems are 5000x stronger than the WiiU and I'm not saying that it's weak, but I AM saying that Nintendo clearly isn't trying to compete with the other systems' specs. I personally think that's very smart of them because the battle that they're waging is very high risk and likely to put one of them out of the console race in the near future.
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WiiU "Latte" GPU Die Photo - GPU Feature Set And Power Analysis
- Thread starter Thraktor
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Any noticeable difference that can't be replicated on another system, I would consider blowing it out of the water. WiiU probably won't have any graphical advantages; just graphical disadvantages. I think people shitting on the WiiU are wrong, but I also think blind optimism is wrong too. The WiiU is a great system and I think it'll do fine against the other systems, but you can't compare them graphically and expect the WiiU to come out on top. Our realistic expectations for the WiiU in terms of flops is ~350 GFLOPS. IF we multiply that by 3, it'd still get shit on by Durango, not to mention Orbis. It can compete with them, in the way a college basketball team can compete with an NBA team, but that doesn't mean that it'd really be competitive. I mean honestly, I don't care if the the other systems are only 1.5x stronger than the WiiU. It'd still be weaker, probably pretty noticeably so. I'm not saying the other systems are 5000x stronger than the WiiU and I'm not saying that it's weak, but I AM saying that Nintendo clearly isn't trying to compete with the other systems' specs. I personally think that's very smart of them because the battle that they're waging is very high risk and likely to put one of them out of the console race in the near future.
Pristine_Condition
Member
We can "firmly" say that? Not saying I disagree but how did you arrive at that conclusion again?
Like they say in science classes: "Show your math," please.
Also, I'd like you to provide proof of this statement (the underlined, please):
Have you identified this "fixed function" logic anywhere? If so, again, please "show your math." If you are so positively sure that this thing is "FULL of fixed-functions," that you can speak so definitively of it's existence, I'm sure those of us who don't understand these things fully would appreciate the education, or at least would like you to tell us how much of the die area is "full" of these elements in your best estimation.
shinra-bansho
Member
Is "Full of fixed functions" the new secret sauce.
At the end of the day there's a reason for people interested in gaming potential to be interested in specs.
What exactly about having a low power draw excites you, pray tell? Beyond relatively meager savings.
Yes, that's exactly what I wrote. Clearly.
At the end of the day there's a reason for people interested in gaming potential to be interested in specs.
?
What exactly about having a low power draw excites you, pray tell? Beyond relatively meager savings.
DragonSworne
Banned
DreadPirateRoberts
Member
Just imagine, if we can pair the fixed functions with the edram...
here's the thing though, we stopped using fixed functions a long time ago, the chances that they handle any particularly advanced effects which would translate into measurable performance boosts are slim to none.
mugurumakensei
Member
Fixed Function is bad if that's all you have as it limits the effects you can do. As an extension to hw with programmable shaders, it's not bad as it means some common effects are cheap.
Hero of Legend
Member
So is there something that the chip shows that outclasses PS3 and 360?
To me it's next gen if it outclasses both, even Wii was behind Xbox in some aspects, but to me it was still in the same gen when you look at games like Galaxy on Dolphin among other games, the biggest anchor was the lack of HD.
But Wii U might out class both PS3 and 360, that's why I'm curious about what aspects really show this if any?
We know the RAM is much better which allows for higher-res textures, that's already something.
To me it's next gen if it outclasses both, even Wii was behind Xbox in some aspects, but to me it was still in the same gen when you look at games like Galaxy on Dolphin among other games, the biggest anchor was the lack of HD.
But Wii U might out class both PS3 and 360, that's why I'm curious about what aspects really show this if any?
We know the RAM is much better which allows for higher-res textures, that's already something.
Would be nice.
As far as the fixed functions go, it's a completely dead end topic right now unless you're actively trying to figure out what's there. The point is there's a lot of stuff, some of which we can identify, much of which we can't. Are they fixed functions? Are they not? Will they make a difference? We don't know. SO talking them up like it'll give the system a tremendous boost is about as dumb as playing them off like it aint no thang cuz either way, you're speaking out of ignorance.
Though I'm still wondering whether the tech heads will really be able to put all the pieces together on this one of if all we're going to be left with are untestable theories.
Elfforkusu
Member
Read the OP. It's been updated since you last read it!
320:16:8 -> 352 GFlops. But half the die is magical mystery hardware, who knows what secrets it may hold? That's what the "fixed functions" talk is about. The alternative would be some asymmetrical core configuration, which is possible (but not necessarily likely) and would mean more GFlops.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
It depends honestly. The reason people have a problem with fixed function anything is that it is limited. It tends to be much faster with less cost, with limited variability.
And generally spottier documentation than your standard lot of pixel shaders. I mean for all we know they are there if only for Wii emulation.
Nobody seems to have pieced anything together as of yet on viability of a whole range of things.
We have some actually doing work, and the rest of us just kind of taking the piss. But honestly this is enthusiast work. Meticulous, but never without a slant. We'll know in year 5 with a ground up title what the system was truly capable of.
Putting code to the word is the only thing that will bear fruit.
edit: *giggles*
Bear fruit.
Reallink
Member
Depends on how you look at it. 360 > U is a 7 year cycle for a possibly 1.5 - 2x improvement over (now) current gen. GC > Wii was a 5 year cycle for a 2x(?) improvement over (then) current gen. So if all that's reasonably accurate, you could actually argue it's an even worse situation than Wii from a pure power progression, moore's law standpoint. The problem you're having is that Orbis/Durango aren't 20x more powerful the PS360--not that the U represents some grand improvement over the Wii's generational leap (or lack thereof).
Thunder Monkey
Banned
If it gets to year five with real support that is.
DreadPirateRoberts
Member
DragonSworne
Banned
Wii didn't, even from Nintendo
More modern, yes. More capable, no.
The Wii's shader could and did do HDR. The Xbox1 shader couldn't to my knowledge. The Wii's shader was just more difficult to use leading to it rarely ever being used.
I'm still wondering why on one has followed through on the comment that the GPU isn't based on an AMD GPU design that was made by the Jim Morrison from Chipworks.
DreadPirateRoberts
Member
Yeah, they did kinda run out of steam there at the end. :|
Wrong thread?
BAM!
Nah. Memphis is totally appropriate in this thread. We were talking about FLOPS afterall.
ambientmystic
Member
Citation needed. AFAIK real FP16/FP32 HDR lighting was unattainable on consoles until the 360/PS3 era which possessed GPUs that had the DX 9.0c feature sets which made them capable of doing so. Even then, it's still computationally expensive.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
It was an approximation of the technique that Factor5 called Light Scattering in the GCN era, and Capcom just called HDR in the Wii era.
Not exactly the same effect, but a fairly convincing approximation.
The feature set being closer should make for a better porting situation, even if it's not a good situation overall.
Sorry to interrupt the discussions about FLOPS and hypothetical stuff guys.
Just wanted to know if that small SRAM piece on the right side of the D area, the one that has the same structure as the 1MB right next to the eDRAM, means there's anything specific at that spot. Don't remember it being mentioned, maybe I just missed it.
Just wanted to know if that small SRAM piece on the right side of the D area, the one that has the same structure as the 1MB right next to the eDRAM, means there's anything specific at that spot. Don't remember it being mentioned, maybe I just missed it.
Hero of Legend
Member
I know Wii games like NiGHTS: journey of Dreams and Sonic & The Black Knight use HDR and really well, the way it glows and shines is super pretty:
Did Xbox ever pull this off?
Thunder Monkey
Banned
That really does depend on a few factors. Do big devs continue to support the 360 through the early years of Orbis/Durango? If so WiiU releases of bigger series will likely always be in the cards.
I know Wii games like NiGHTS: journey of Dreams and Sonic & The Black Knight use HDR and really well, the way it glows and shines is super pretty:
Did Xbox ever pull this off?
You can have overbright bloom without HDR. HDR should preserve detail in very bright or dark areas, unlike that knight which is mostly blowing out to white.
Hero of Legend
Member
Any examples of that on Wii that you can find with a screen?
I know Wii games like NiGHTS: journey of Dreams and Sonic & The Black Knight use HDR and really well, the way it glows and shines is super pretty:
Did Xbox ever pull this off?
This looks utterly awful and is not HDR. It's a bloom shader. It's been in games since the first Splinter Cell.
FP16/32 HDR was not doable on the Wii, and was barely even doable on the Xbox 360 and PS3 without massive compromises. Which is why Halo 3 had it but Reach and Halo 4 did not.
DragonSworne
Banned
They seem to be on the right track to remedy that issue somewhat with the unification of their handheld and console R&D teams. So they have a more unified development environment that avoids some of the issues where they have to effectively ditch one platform to focus on the other. Also doing more collaborations with third parties to bolster their development resources.
It really does depend on how prominent "cross-gen" games wind up being. Apart from that, the Wii U is kind of the de facto inheritor of all the middleware that targeted the 360 and PS3, which could mean various things depending on how developers decide to use it. Wii U being able to run Unreal 3 and CryEngine 3 seems like a better scenario than Wii getting PS2 and PSP up-ports due to engine restrictions.
DragonSworne
Banned
Why run UE3 when it can run UE4?
Engines should be compatible with the hardware, unless I'm sorely missing the point of engines.
shinra-bansho
Member
Hero of Legend
Member
*sniff* it's what I called HDR for years, man I suck at understanding tech terminology and understanding. :'(
Programming = not in my future if I can't understand this stuff.
Well, I can learn it in a school/class for programming!
It might be able to, we don't know yet. I'm of the mind that Wii U probably can run cut-down ports of games that use next-gen engines, and that ports or lack thereof will be determined more by business decisions than the hardware making it an absolute impossibility like the Wii.
Hero of Legend
Member
Hope the Gearbox rumor is true (ironically, GB was said to have tried to get UE3 on Wii, whether they ever actually tried in the first place, I don't know). Just getting ONE UE4 game on Wii U could shut naysayers.
they're discussing fixed function shaders which is pretty relevant to the chip
phosphor112
Banned
I don't see any HDR, but it does look good. =P
Sanic
Member
This is a tangent, but where can I find more info on the differences in the lighting solution between Halo 3/Reach/4? A search didn't really turn up anything except for rather basic, layman's kind of info.
ambientmystic
Member
This beyond3d thread discusses the upgrades/downgrades in the Halo 4 engine in comparison to the previous 2 games with some videos to illustrate the point.
Halo 4 Engine Tradeoffs
Sanic
Member
Great, thanks!
They still have HDR (at least Reach does), it's just lower precision than in Halo 3. They use the 7e3 format (10 bit) which is still quite a bit more precise than LDR solutions. 360 has a lot of funky formats so the options aren't just LDR or HDR.
No, people are talking on how many times the wiiu is weaker than OrbiRango, if this or that engine will support wiiu, if this or that game will be on wiiu and starting to compare the wii and the xbox. The thread is explicitly about "GPU Feature Set And Power Analysis" if you have nothing to contribute with you just don't post or go off topic...
I understand that since many people are not experts they understand nothing about what said (i'm not expert neither and understand 1/10 off the stuff) but that's not a reason to pollute this thread, there are at the very least other 3 threads to talk about of the situation of the wiiu with 3rd parties and how it compares with next gen (which is starting to become boring in general btw)...
go in there if you have to talk about that stuff, if this thread is destined to have 10posts/day instead of 3new pages/day just let it be.
Fake edit: see? now you forced me to fill this thread with more useless stuff :/
DreadPirateRoberts
Member
ambientmystic
Member
FP10 HDR lighting was actually used extensively by Valve in most of their Source based engine games, starting from their Lost Coast benchmark up until Half Life 2: Episode 2 (which featured an updated Source engine). It's not just the 360 that features this gimped HDR solution.
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