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"How the hell does *that* cost $X to make???" (Giant Bomb and Skullgirls)
- Thread starter dLMN8R
- Start date
On average Gaf IS better, it's just that even then the bar is pretty low and better is relative.
Fudgepuppy
Banned
The voice-over for Bastion was done in a bedroom, with bedsheets as sound-proofing.
And I'm not truly buying those numbers, and if they are true, it's got to be bad management (no matter how standard they are, it's still ridiculous).
EDIT. Read above posts and sort of retract my statement...
Still, there's got to be some way of actually making the process easier, like hitboxes, can't they be automatically designed based on the sprites?
And I'm not truly buying those numbers, and if they are true, it's got to be bad management (no matter how standard they are, it's still ridiculous).
EDIT. Read above posts and sort of retract my statement...
Still, there's got to be some way of actually making the process easier, like hitboxes, can't they be automatically designed based on the sprites?
I certainly understand why, but at the same time, we're never going to get people to understand if we avoid discussing this openly.
That's why I gave the budget breakdown, after all.
Why is everyone comparing different games as if they're the same? That's not how things work.
Anyway, I'll admonish myself for my bad management and hope I improve, and pass your feedback on to the rest of the industry.
Well shit, now that we know, recording studios are completely obsolete. We can just record podcasts and band music in our bedroom as well.
Anyone wanna record in my bedroom? $50 an hour, free soda.
Yes, bad management is why people are getting paid $600/week. Well done, you world class management expert.
What the fuck people...
Steve Youngblood
Member
All right, you're now in charge of getting this DLC character completed. What do you think the budget should be? How long do you think it should take? What is your rationale for this budget/timeline?
This thread constantly delivers.
Delusibeta
Banned
Hence the use of the word "all".
That's a pretty big problem with a very significant portion of people that inhabit this place. They think that just because they happen to share their opinions on a forum that people in the industry are known to look at, that it makes their opinions on all things gaming related worth a lot more than it really is. They treat this place like they are in some cool kids club or something.
I certainly didn't know a damn thing about dev costs and didn't assume that just because kickstarter X costs X to make, then every other game, regardless of genre, should cost similar. I appreciate the information that was shared by people in the know in here and can only hope that a few ignorant others can educate themselves with it and think twice before talking out of their ass next time.
ulcers straight to my stomach
Fudgepuppy
Banned
Wow, most times I've been quoted in one day.
Well I can't speak for Skullgirls, but how much dialogue is in that game compared to Bastion? I'm not hating, not at all.
I'm personally really interested in getting into the industry, especially since I have some background in budget management, so to me it's just so foreign since I've myself cut corners here and there by doing the less important stuff myself.
Still, not really my place to judge, I'm mostly surprised, that's all.
Well I can't speak for Skullgirls, but how much dialogue is in that game compared to Bastion? I'm not hating, not at all.
I'm personally really interested in getting into the industry, especially since I have some background in budget management, so to me it's just so foreign since I've myself cut corners here and there by doing the less important stuff myself.
Still, not really my place to judge, I'm mostly surprised, that's all.
JakkuFurosu
Member
It really does.
I came in today checking my subs and saw this was still on top i was kinda surprised. Shame the devs and others seemingly have to repost the same info over and over and people still think they lying/fudging/mismanagement.
zero shift
Banned
I love how the actual developers in this thread are getting attacked for stating the obvious. Anybody who has ever worked on media should know that it isn't actually making the product that costs money, but all of the overhead that comes with it.
This isn't true at all. There are more 3D CGI movies because they sell more not because they are cheaper to make. There are plenty of great looking 2D movies that cost a fraction of Pixars price.
People underestimate how long it takes to create models and textures.
Hand-drawn animation costs more than 3D up until you get to movie quality levels.
Also keep in mind that such little of the money is actually do to the actual drawing of the sprites and more so the entire production. Someone mentioned that Seth Killian stated thats how much it costs to make a new 3D character as well. Drawing the character is peanuts compared to the other things involved. This is why you see plenty of doujin 2D indie fighters.
This isn't true at all. There are more 3D CGI movies because they sell more not because they are cheaper to make. There are plenty of great looking 2D movies that cost a fraction of Pixars price.
People underestimate how long it takes to create models and textures.
Hand-drawn animation costs more than 3D up until you get to movie quality levels.
Also keep in mind that such little of the money is actually do to the actual drawing of the sprites and more so the entire production. Someone mentioned that Seth Killian stated thats how much it costs to make a new 3D character as well. Drawing the character is peanuts compared to the other things involved. This is why you see plenty of doujin 2D indie fighters.
Fudgepuppy
Banned
If something's not working, you find a way to make it more effective, that's always been the practice of manufacturing something.
And don't take it so personally, you guys are surely doing a great job with the resources you have, and I don't have a problem with Kickstarter etc. I just find it depressing to hear how incredibly obtuse the industry is, since I myself want to get into it.
Keep it going.
As many have stated already, hit boxes are not that simple for a fighting game that's trying to be balanced for competitive play. There are an insane amount of things to take into consideration. This is why you'll see moves sometimes connect when the sprites aren't even touching. This is more obvious in some of the older Street Fighter games.
Not for a fighting game. The balance relies completely and totally on hitboxes and a lot of times they need to be arbitrarily bigger or smaller than the actual sprite.
These are what hitboxes look like in P4A:
...So you admit that you don't actually know what you're talking about, after calling me a terrible manager? That's reassuring, I guess.
Skullgirls has a lot less dialogue than Bastion did, but a lot for a fighting game.
The costs for voices include the voice actors, studio rental time, and paying the voice director. And we're not using expensive things - we're using pros, but pros with good bang for the buck.
No, because its a fighter not a platfofmer. Hit boxes need to be designed with character balance in mind instead of where the sprite begins/ends. That requires a ton of testing, hitbox adjustments, re-testing and then it still may not work because when it comes to fighters especially, human ingenuity almost always trumps hundreds of hours QA testing.
Did you also know Bastion cuts a lot of corners? No one besides The Kid has a run animation, NPCs just stand around like a statue, enemies either float or teleport, paths being created are just sprites flying upwards. There really isn't a lot of animation in that game and animation is hella expensive.
Really, I thought the Mugen comment will never be topped, but now we have bedroom recording. I just tell to myself that this kind of comments are coming from 14 years olds who don't know how the world works.
I actually did bedroom recording for a short movie I made, guess I need to phone Spielberg and let him know he's wasting money and he can just hire me.
I always wondered how they achieved that effect and can't believe I didn't think of something so simple.
BronsonLee
Member
At least we're finally at a point where people are (begrudgingly and rather condescendingly) backpedaling on their "Oh jeez, so expensive" logic when being planted with evidence from all sides almost immediately.
What a mess.
What a mess.
Oldschoolgamer
The physical form of blasphemy
There is more to recording acceptable sound than using sound proofing everywhere. The number one reason studios are better for sound recording is because they are built to channel sound in a certain manner.
Lets not even talk about equipment, which can cost up to millions of dollars. Hell mics themselves can costs thousands.
Just because something is acceptable, doesn't mean that it's good or the best.
Lets not even talk about equipment, which can cost up to millions of dollars. Hell mics themselves can costs thousands.
Just because something is acceptable, doesn't mean that it's good or the best.
Indie creativity(tm) is magic.
That said, Skullgirls is NOT an indie game, and Lab Zero is NOT an indie developer.
Fudgepuppy
Banned
Yes, your point is? Bastion is a great game, and so does Skullgirls seem to be, no matter how bloated or miniscule their budgets could be.
I'm not saying you're a bad manager, or that I know or don't know how it works in the industry. What I'm saying is that if something's not working, you find a way to make it work.
So you did find a way to make it work? Great for you, but then there's no need to take offense by someone like me, who's obviously not as knowledgeable about the process of making a game.
Do whatever makes you guys and the fans happy, that's all.
(╯°□°）╯︵ pɐǝɹɥʇ sıɥʇ
Ok, well i decided to check some youtube videos of this game. Am not saying those character don`t deserve or need that much money. I do see from this thread that it is very difficult to make fighting game.
But character art style looks really bad to me. That alone blows my brain, that art like that goes into something that costs that much. Holy shit at today`s game industry.
It is matter of taste. Obviously a lot of people like the game, but wow just wow.
But character art style looks really bad to me. That alone blows my brain, that art like that goes into something that costs that much. Holy shit at today`s game industry.
It is matter of taste. Obviously a lot of people like the game, but wow just wow.
Kageshinzo
Member
This is really what you should have done in the first place.
We're not? Why is that?
Sorry you don't like it, but please don't let that color your opinion of the effort needed to make it happen.
There's a little video we did about our animation process.
Since our characters have 1500 frames of animation, we need to make 4500 separate assets. And each frame also needs hitboxes, be timed and scripted for gameplay, etc.
But you did call me a bad manager a few posts above. Like, if it wasn't already clear: I am Peter Bartholow, the CEO of Lab Zero.
And we are making it work, with a lot of people wearing a lot of hats, and virtually no bloat or waste. People that actually know what they're talking about say we're incredibly efficient and cheap. And they have gone on the record about it, in the article linked in the OP. But apparently that isn't enough for GAF's assembly of business experts.
BronsonLee
Member
Are you doing the grave digger dance or something while you say this?
Doubling down is silly here. Devils advocate logic is silly here, even if you keep claiming lack of knowledge. That's an excuse to hide behind.
Your expertise isn't in this. Mine isn't either. We both shouldn't talk about it. Seem fair?
Hellsing321
Member
Here is a link posted by /XX/ in the anime thread that I thought might be relevant to to this thread even though it deals with the production of anime and its costs. I think a lot of the information in it can shed some light on just how much work goes into animation even if it pertains to animation in Japan which will obviously have a different workflow and budget concerns compared to making a fighting game. I see it as a way to compare and contrast just how much traditional 2D hand animation costs.
Some choice quotes:
Some choice quotes:
Mutanthands
Member
Fudgepuppy
Banned
Why not? Sure we are definitely stepping on toes and hurting people in the process, but was not my intent.
I'm definitely sorry for hurting anyone who's part of the creative process of creating Skullgirls, but I'm mostly just surprised.
I thought you weren't, I dunno. I'll rescind if you think I'm wrong, I'm not well versed on what makes an indie an indie.
You're welcome to make an argument for or against.
Neuromancer
Member
Some of the posts in this thread are really embarrassing. Instead of letting yourself be educated, which is easy when all the facts have been laid out in front of you, so many posters choose to be ignorant instead.
Well anyway I learned a lot so thanks Ravidrath.
Well anyway I learned a lot so thanks Ravidrath.
BronsonLee
Member
Because this thread is/was full of people who have had the same surprise as you, but presented it in wildly different ways.
Many people with different forms of expertise claimed they could do better/faster/cheaper.
Evidence from many noteworthy devs came saying the cost is not only fair, but cheap comparatively.
Some people with those different forms of expertise tried out the process just to see. They realized their error and moved on.
Tldr; why not? Because this conversation has been had before, many times, and it's not worth having anymore. Your intent is unimportant.
I mean, we don't have any money. That's pretty indie, right?
We don't have an office, and are all working from home. That's totally indie.
Actually, the best thing I've been able to come up with that distinguishes and indie studio from an independent studio is whether or not they have dedicated IT staff.
While I did come up with this at the bar with one of the Skulls of the Shogun programmers, it basically boils down to this: if you need full-time staff to maintain the company infrastructure, you're not longer small enough to be "indie."
HotGarbage
Member
Same. Though cringe-inducing at times (bedroom recording? Fucking mugen!?) I'm glad this is now being discussed transparently. I absolutely have a newfound respect for the industry and the costs involved in making these games. I really had no idea.
I just don`t like the character art and i expected you will get something better looking for that much money. It is matter of taste. That is all.
BurnOutBrighter
Banned
Sarcastic replies like this aren't helpful either.
Every developer, whether indie or AAA, wants to save money. When we see the ingenuity of smaller devs like the ones behind Bastion, $4000 on a handful of one liners and grunts is excessive and unnecessary. That's why we're skeptical.
Fudgepuppy
Banned
I wasn't really surprised about the cost itself, I was more surprised over how in-depth the plan was with no overhead as mentioned.
I know things cost in the industry, and that 150k is nothing in any sort of IT-based industry. What surprised me where all the elements exclusive to the game being a 2D-fighter.
It's sort of like when Bungie showed how they were bug-testing Halo 3, and the guy would just stand and jump 30 times on every place on the map because it could cause the game to crash. Like that whole process to me was just "wtf".
As said, not bashing anyone, just interesting and surprised.
The industry is largely to blame. Most of the budgets you see on games are hugely distorted.
For example, I have it on really good authority that the budget for Uncharted 2 was around $70M. But their "official" number was around $20M.
On top of that, the whole Kickstarter phenomenon and mod scene have really distorted people's perceptions about budgets for games. People now, apparently, seem to think that because someone can do something for free that everyone should work for free all the time.
I mean, it doesn't help that a vast majority of the people making these allegations are high school or college students, who don't know anything about business financials.
But this shit adds up quickly! If we had an office, we'd be looking at another 40-50% of overhead on top of the salaries to cover benefits, rent, etc.
And the average $600 a week we're paying ourselves for this character, in LA no less, is NOTHING. MikeZ could easily pull down $120k a year with his industry experience, and people are complaining about me paying him $500 a week.
It's been explained many times - this includes studio rental costs, the voice director, and the voice actors. Of which there are two for this character.
Could we do it cheaper? Maybe. But it probably wouldn't be the same quality as the previous content, and it would probably take longer because we'd have to research and implement this new method, which is time that we're not spending doing other things.
I mean, you and a lot of people are also really focused on less than 3% of the budget here. I really thought a lot more people would be appalled at the over 40% of the budget that is needed just to collect the money and get it onto your system.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
How do you know they arent saving money? For all you know, if a different studio had to make the exact same content, the price could go up by 10k.
People have a tendency to assume that whatever figure is given, that its the highest figure available. It's a terrible habit.
CuthbertAllgoodz
Member
Any game where I can jump I will have moments where I just stand there jumping 30 times because I am talking to someone at the same time or I am just bored, I certainly do not want my console to crash because I am doing it. haha
For having worked in QA for a lot of time, there is a lot of things that might seem to be silly and a waste of time and money but it is not. With the system points they use, it is not that hard for a game to not pass certification with Microsoft or Sony in some cases. You might be unlucky and their testers might just happen to find those weird bug you might not want to pay people to test and the cost of resubmitting many time is insane.
Edit: I also wanted to add that often you have to pay the publishers QA to test your game on top of your own testers and those guys are one of the few in the industry who are receiving paid overtime. That eats a lot of money!
Oldschoolgamer
The physical form of blasphemy
It's not excessive or unnecessary. Good sound quality can cost great money. It's not even a shortcut here either, considering that they would then have to pay an engineer even more money to match and attain the quality they had when the original game was created.
It's a means to an end, but in no way shape form or fashion, is recording in a bedroom that isn't built for sound recording a substitute for getting it done professionally.
You absolutely, unquestionably called him a bad manager, and the fact that his response to "Maybe you're bad at your job that I know nothing about" wasn't "Maybe fuck right to death" shows that he has a lot more restraint than I do.
That's actually a really good (albeit unofficial) definition. I'm gonna remember this.
Congrats, you're an indie!
Every developer also wants so make a kick-ass game, but that isn't so.
If you're so skeptical, then why don't you ask Ravidrath himself? Witcher 2 was made on a few million because they live in Poland where cost of living is low. Clearly everyone should move to Poland to cut down costs.