It's not. But does the joy outweigh the suffering? Maybe for you, but for someone else? Can you justify their existence based on your joy?
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Having children seems immoral to me...
- Thread starter braves01
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It's not. But does the joy outweigh the suffering? Maybe for you, but for someone else? Can you justify their existence based on your joy?
So the moral thing would be for nobody to exist? I think you have to maybe brush aside that aspect of your morality if that's how you feel.
At the same time, should I tell somebody they shouldn't subject a potential child to the possibility of suffering even if you don't know whether that suffering would outweigh joy for them? You think it would be better to just not risk that somebody COULD have more suffering than joy, without even knowing?
At the same time, should I tell somebody they shouldn't subject a potential child to the possibility of suffering even if you don't know whether that suffering would outweigh joy for them? You think it would be better to just not risk that somebody COULD have more suffering than joy, without even knowing?
hemishushawa
Neo Member
Not everyone, sorry.
Choke on the Magic
Banned
I don't think I have to justify my children's existence to anyone. Not even them.
I don't get this stance, why should he inherently seek help for something like not wanting to have children ?
I simply don't get that.
"if it isn't for you, I encourage you to seek help"
if you don't conform to societal expectations, you are there for mentally ill is what you are saying.
You really seem to have a severe negative outlook on life. To feel pain is to live. And I feel somewhat offended that you are somehow linking procreation to immorality.
It is our biological imperative to procreate. Whether the environment is conducive to a healthy upbringing for the child is a whole other subject.
SpartanForce
Member
I do all that; I try to get out with the few friends I have, I go to gym everyday, etc, and still have depression. I take my meds too. It helps? Sure. But don't cure it. The hell I went to be "stable" today is something I don't want another human being to go for it. It is too damn hard.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
It takes two to tango, and technically only one of them had a chance anyway. But if we did think this way, would it be immoral for girls to let their eggs cycle out unfertilized?
On some level our view of life creation has to be a bit removed from ourselves. Otherwise you end up this kind of crazy or the OP kind of crazy.
Earth is not living and is not something the can benefit from anything. It's a piece of rock floating in the universe. It does not feel, so it matter very little what benefits the world.
I also hate how people constantly separate humans rest of nature, as if we are something outside of it.
Joy doesn't find you, you have to find it.
Ignoring day-to-day joy and suffering, life is just inherently cruel. We are all biologically programmed to want to live, and to do everything we can to survive. Yet, the one thing that is absolutely certain is that we will all eventually die. When you give birth to someone, you are at the same time sentencing them to death. I'm not saying it's moral or immoral -- it's just life.
stufte
Member
Not wanting children is one thing. Thinking of having children as some sort immoral act that will (potentially) bring heart-ache and suffering is another.
Choke on the Magic
Banned
From reading some of his posts it sounds like something more disturbing than simply not wanting to have children. His arguement basically states that any who has kids is immoral for not getting the childs consent ahead of time to have them. It's nonsense.
I'm sorry, this is still a means/end argument. The end is we can stop all suffering (maybe). The means is we commit immoral acts now that lead to suffering (if you accept that existence necessarily entails suffering and that suffering is immoral). I'm going to sleep now, but I'll respond to you in the morning.
Why do you assume suffering is a bad thing? Everyone needs some form of pain in there life to some effect. It's what tells us what we are doing right, and what we are doing wrong. We learn from it, evolve from it. When you touch a hot stove, your body responds with pain because otherwise you would burn that hand off.
Also not everyone fears death, I don't. I don't believe in god, so when I die I'll go back to being nothing like before I was born, so I won't really have any time to stress about being dead since I won't be anything. I'll enjoy life as I have it now, teach my son about things I've learned on the way, and maybe pass on something useful for future generations of humans.
Immoral acts =/= suffering
Immoral acts don't have to have a negative impact on anyone or anything. I suggest you talk to a professional because you sound pretty depressed bro.
If you put no worth on the journey, and instead only put merit in the destination, then sure, but I tend to feel that going through life is more important than the end of it.
Aquamarine
Member
Wonderful.
Honestly, this viewpoint is quite fascinating. The "primal, instinctual" inclination of humans to procreate and all. But it makes the endgame of an "immoral" approach to block child-rearing as something ultimately futile.
It's a combination of culture, biology, and human's built up stable of morality. People feel uncomfortable when you make claims that are apathetic to procreation of society at large and counteractive to human's sustained presence on this Earth.
user8503492
Banned
Having a kid saved my life and healed wounds I carried for years.
I was on a downward spiral with drugs and alcohol, barely worked or did anythign with my life. My girlfriend of a year (now wife) said she was pregnant and it was like a light switch went off and I dropped everything and never looked back on the evils I left behind.
Having an absent father who took his own life when I was teen left me hating myself, my life, and being a cynical creep with a cold heart...and that all just vanished in the blink of an eye.
Sure the world isnt the greatest but I will have his back through think and thin, I guess we both owe each other our lives to some extent.
I was on a downward spiral with drugs and alcohol, barely worked or did anythign with my life. My girlfriend of a year (now wife) said she was pregnant and it was like a light switch went off and I dropped everything and never looked back on the evils I left behind.
Having an absent father who took his own life when I was teen left me hating myself, my life, and being a cynical creep with a cold heart...and that all just vanished in the blink of an eye.
Sure the world isnt the greatest but I will have his back through think and thin, I guess we both owe each other our lives to some extent.
everyone in this thread is over thinking everything
Immoral or moral these are human created ideas and notions
We are all animals in the end on a floating space rock.
and we all want our genes to be past on to the next generation of animals.
it is the basic core of humanity, is to fuck and pass on genes irregardless of everything else.
or in GAF terms Mario gets to fuck the princess and the Wii U is born...
Immoral or moral these are human created ideas and notions
We are all animals in the end on a floating space rock.
and we all want our genes to be past on to the next generation of animals.
it is the basic core of humanity, is to fuck and pass on genes irregardless of everything else.
or in GAF terms Mario gets to fuck the princess and the Wii U is born...
no, you missed my point. again:
kids aren't for you? i know a bunch of older, married couples without kids. they usually live in the city proper and they live happy, fulfilled lives. and they've got a load of cash from not paying for college a buch of times. more power to them.
but feeling like the negatives of life outweigh the positives SO MUCH that the very idea of bringing a chid into this world seems inherent immoral to you is... not healthy. it seems indicative of some deep issues that are probably worth addressing.
you said it yourself:
i agree with you.
and sometimes those issues (i don't consider them defects) are worth looking into. with the help of a doctor who is capable and caring.
we already have a blame space
Very hard for you. I can understand where you're coming from but I try to always think to myself "no matter how negatively I view my reality, there are many who have a more difficult reality and many who have a less difficult reality".
When the bads and bad feelings are given more of my mental energy and attention it is what makes them more prominent. Sorry, I'm not trying to change your mind and I do respect where you are coming from. I am just trying to speak from experience when I point out that mindset and what you focus on can be a very powerful tool in mental health and "happiness". When I hear people discredit those types of things I see it as being negative and closed-minded, unintentional or not.
We are all just assemblies of borrowed atoms. You get to hold onto them for a little while and then they return to the earth/universe to become something else.
it takes two to tango
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
You should be more concerned with how having a child is an immoral act. You are blatantly ignoring the alternative perspective I am offering and continuing with your own unsupported presuppositions that the sufferings experienced are the same as us inflicting them just because our actions are what resulted in the life. You need to demonstrate how that is true and also demonstrate how that connection of personal responsibility to us would not also connect us to a responsibility to work toward preventing future suffering that would occur whether or not we have children.
Anyway, I doubt GAF will have the patience to deconstruct the views of someone who is being as stubborn as you. If you want someone who will truly rip your concepts of morality to pieces, start here: http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Sequences
Of course, that's just one section to introduce you to things. There is a whole community of philosophers behind it. Feel free to engage them if you are actually as interested as you claim.
Falcs
Banned
Now that I think a little more on this I think that if you have pretty shitty living conditions that aren't really fit for raising a family, then the answer to the OP's question could be a yes.
I mean if I had no money, a shit tonne of debt, no house, some sickness that meant I would die when my kids are only in their early teens, no job skills, I lived in a horrible place full of crime, pollution, no education, no internet, etc.... I think I would feel quite immoral having a baby and bringing it into what I would see as my shitty life.
I mean if I had no money, a shit tonne of debt, no house, some sickness that meant I would die when my kids are only in their early teens, no job skills, I lived in a horrible place full of crime, pollution, no education, no internet, etc.... I think I would feel quite immoral having a baby and bringing it into what I would see as my shitty life.
Sometimes I think if I spent my days running after a boar for my next meal I'd have much less time to think depressingly about my life. Instead I get to defrost chicken and browse the internet from my nice laptop. First world problems.
Isn't it considered fact that people in those situations tend to have the most children of all, by a landslide?
the real question is if he would tip the doctor...
hemishushawa
Neo Member
I would also like to know if braves01 is or has been depressed in any way. I mostly agree with him.
Monocle
Member
Morality might be a social construct, but it's every bit as relevant to us as as it would be if it exists objectively, since it deals with issues of practical significance to us in our daily lives.
I see little force in arguments that dismiss things just because they're human made. We're part of the universe just like everything else. Anything we produce is therefore an outgrowth of nature. We find ourselves in the position of having to decide what we want and how to behave. And we find ourselves living in social systems where a shared moral framework is not just useful but necessary. We may be animals floating on a space rock, but that fact has no bearing on the validity or importance of our values.
Adopting a remote perspective just so you can giggle to yourself about the futility of human affairs is a childish expression of the insecurity one feels when faced with the vast responsibility of existential freedom. Most people don't like to face the reality of their condition, which is how I account for Honey Boo Boo.
The reason people are often for abortion is that they don't see abortion as killing a person. They are killing a lump of flesh that is not cognizant. Perhaps one day it would become conscious, but it isn't when the abortion occurs.
The same basic concept would apply to asking fetuses if they want to live; you'd no more ask that then you'd ask a cat or a chicken the same question. It isn't intelligent enough to decide, so it doesn't get to choose.
The same basic concept would apply to asking fetuses if they want to live; you'd no more ask that then you'd ask a cat or a chicken the same question. It isn't intelligent enough to decide, so it doesn't get to choose.
I said I was going to bed, but...
For.
Edit: Depressed? Not more than the average person I suppose.
MoonsaultSlayer
Member
Reminds me of Mudvayne's (Per)version of a truth. "Born into a world... never asked to beeeeee heeeeerreee!"
I don't agree with you, OP, but I find the idea fascinating poetically.
I don't agree with you, OP, but I find the idea fascinating poetically.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
By "someone" I meant the community, but I wouldn't want to send someone to the community without knowledge of where the community is coming from, hence the sequences.Less Wrong is great, but I'm not sure that's the introduction I'd give to the Sequences.
Edit: Mind you, I don't have a problem with people being philosophically lazy. Go ahead and be that way and think to yourself in whatever manner you want. However, being confrontational toward others worldviews at the same time is a bad mix. If you engage, you ought to truly engage with integrity.
Rosenskjold
Member
Maybe you should try focusing a bit more on the good things in life, like love and happiness which are also a part of existing. Just because we can face hardship in life doesn't mean life isn't good.
Trent Strong
Banned
I don't think anyone is proposing that we should ask fetuses if they want to live.
scytherage
Member
I don't think it's possible for people to choose everything that happens to them, even being born. A lot of things that happen to people are beyond their control, and this isn't just limited to people; every living thing goes through that.
No matter how rich or powerful you get, you can't control everything.
I am not simply saying you shouldn't ask. I am saying they have no right to choose, just as chickens don't, or cats don't, or carrots don't. We make choices for living things without agency all the time.
Monocle
Member
Personally I think we should have a "a kick once if you want to live, twice if you don't" test. We need to accommodate the wishes of the fetuses.
I agree with OP and I don't have a mental disorder. I like how many people instinctively concluded that OP might be depressed because he actually thinks about this topic instead of having a child and wondering later if he really should have had a child.
OP I saw this awhile back I think you might like this since it is what you agree with:
EDIT: WOAH. Last time I just listened to his speech I didn't know there was gore images in the video....
Uhh I don't know if I should post it anymore...
youtube: La Desazon Suprema Fernando Vallejo 1 de 9 (this is the full version)
It has English subtitles, I don't think that one has the images (the short one is titled: Colombian Antinatalist Speech).
Sorry, if anyone saw that ans wasn't prepared....
OP I saw this awhile back I think you might like this since it is what you agree with:
EDIT: WOAH. Last time I just listened to his speech I didn't know there was gore images in the video....
Uhh I don't know if I should post it anymore...
youtube: La Desazon Suprema Fernando Vallejo 1 de 9 (this is the full version)
It has English subtitles, I don't think that one has the images (the short one is titled: Colombian Antinatalist Speech).
Sorry, if anyone saw that ans wasn't prepared....
I wanted your opinion, because you seem objective and reasonable [almost to a fault
] in most of your posts. So, what do you think? We make choices for living things without agency all the time, is it moral to condemn a being to life (and necessarily death), assuming it will cause some degree of suffering and an uncertain degree of joy? Is it wrong to assume life risks suffering?- Status
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