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XSEED Translator on why all games don't get dual audio

I'd say that this is reaching quite a bit to imply that people whose needs aren't being met would simply resort to piracy.

Pirated copies of undubbed games do exist, and if those people resort to piracy to get what they want, hey, pirates are offering a product that XSEED could not. In regards to those who would pirate what they want and not buy the game anyway, it's hard to make the argument that they would have bought an official release of what they wanted in the first place if they are scumbags.

Alas, I do not wish to derail the thread with piracy discussion.

If someone wants to protest a game that would otherwise appeal to them, I would imagine piracy would be their first option on the PSP or the Wii, rather than simply not playing the game at all. Especially when people don't seem to recognize that piracy has any effect on future localizations existing.
 

CSX

Member
I'm interested in how Project x Zone will sell over here.

They can promote it with the dvd release of the new Die Hard since the game has Japanese John McClane :p

Anyways, I assume that games with no english dub can exist because the VA's contracts allow their work to be used overseas or it's cheaper to revise their contracts to be so than making an english dub all together?
 
The point I was trying to make is that publishers are often faced with two options: release the game in English with an English dub, or don't release the game in English at all. And if people stop buying games because they have English dubs, you're going to see more publishers choosing the latter, which means fewer games of that sort available in English.

In the end, if you honestly believe it would be better not to translate the game at all than to translate it with dubbed audio, that's your prerogative. But if you want to enjoy the game without learning Japanese, you may just have to make a concession. Sure, you can always pirate an undub or something... but if you do that, and a sequel comes out the next year, you may find yourself not getting a translation for that sequel because sales of the original simply didn't add up.

Ultimately, if you want to support games being translated to English, you need to take the good with the bad. If a publisher has done all that they can to deliver a top-quality product to you, but was forced to eliminate the Japanese voices in the process... well, then you have a decision to make: do you show support for the effort that went into translating said game so that future titles have a firm foundation for release as well (knowing that dual audio may BECOME an option as the publisher and developer forge a closer relationship with one another), or do you deny support to the effort due to the lack of Japanese audio and possibly contribute toward the series dying with that one single release?

-Tom

This argument is an interesting one, but if I'm not mistaken, the Atelier series was available with dual-audio until Ayesha's release. So the hypothesis that people should support a game without dual-audio in the hopes the sequel will be released with dual-audio someday doesn't exactly apply here. It's more suspicious that this change occurred with the change of publisher to Tecmo-Koei, a publisher which is known for releasing their other titles like the Warriors titles with only a localized voice track. Atlus and Square-Enix are the same way, they have frequently or always chosen not to include the original language track whether they can get it or not. Square-Enix is interesting that their titles found mainstream Western success before there even was voice acting in games but Atlus is not, they seem to always go out of their way to not include JP audio in SMT titles just to spite their fans.
 
Anime distributors in the US figured out long ago that dual audio anime sales>dub only sales>sub only sales for most things and only release sub only for super niche things that only mega weeaboos would buy.

So I guess no, you're not alone.

for the bolded one, long ago it probably true, but is it still the case now?
 

Takao

Banned
for the bolded one, long ago it probably true, but is it still the case now?

Would Funimation, the North American market leader, continue to dub every single one of their releases if they felt no one would care if they went sub-only?

Edit: Oops, you meant dub-only stuff. Unless Japan is being an ass regarding Japanese language tracks due to fears of reverse importation, the only things that remain dub-only are like kids shows. Those get into the Wal-Marts, and other retail chains so they probably do sell better than Sentai Moe Release 28.
 

Quackula

Member
This argument is an interesting one, but if I'm not mistaken, the Atelier series was available with dual-audio until Ayesha's release. So the hypothesis that people should support a game without dual-audio in the hopes the sequel will be released with dual-audio someday doesn't exactly apply here. It's more suspicious that this change occurred with the change of publisher to Tecmo-Koei, a publisher which is known for releasing their other titles like the Warriors titles with only a localized voice track. Atlus and Square-Enix are the same way, they have frequently or always chosen not to include the original language track whether they can get it or not. Square-Enix is interesting that their titles found mainstream Western success before there even was voice acting in games but Atlus is not, they seem to always go out of their way to not include JP audio in SMT titles just to spite their fans.

Yeah, that's probably why they do that. They just want you to be mad at them.
 

wyrdwad

XSEED Localization Specialist
This argument is an interesting one, but if I'm not mistaken, the Atelier series was available with dual-audio until Ayesha's release. So the hypothesis that people should support a game without dual-audio in the hopes the sequel will be released with dual-audio someday doesn't exactly apply here. It's more suspicious that this change occurred with the change of publisher to Tecmo-Koei, a publisher which is known for releasing their other titles like the Warriors titles with only a localized voice track. Atlus and Square-Enix are the same way, they have frequently or always chosen not to include the original language track whether they can get it or not. Square-Enix is interesting that their titles found mainstream Western success before there even was voice acting in games but Atlus is not, they seem to always go out of their way to not include JP audio in SMT titles just to spite their fans.

Well, I'm certainly not speaking in absolutes, as every game has its own unique share of issues to overcome. I have no idea what specific sorts of issues those particular publishers may have encountered with those titles, but there's no doubt in my mind that some publishers DO choose to remove the Japanese voice track from their games -- even if I have no real idea WHY exactly they would do that.

I wouldn't simply ASSUME that's the case, though. Unless they come right out and tell you that they dubbed those games because they DAMN WELL WANTED TO, it's probably safer to assume that somewhere, on some level of procedure, somebody set a business decision in stone that guided the publisher's hand in some manner.

On our side, though, I can say with absolute confidence that we ALWAYS try to provide dual language options in our games. Usually, we can only manage one or the other -- we've released quite a few games that use the original voice-acting only (the most recent being the Corpse Party titles), and quite a few games that use English dubs only, but haven't released a dual-audio title in many years. I can't go into the reasons for any of this due to NDAs, but I can at least tell you that in the 3 years I've been working at XSEED, we've explored the possibility of going dual-language in every single game we've worked on. And I know we're not the only publisher to do this.

-Tom
 

Eusis

Member
Based Gabe was the one who noted that pirates are underserved customers. I can't think of a more textbook example than this off the top of my head.
No, the ultimate example will always be products failing to come out in your territory. When it's either a pain or outright impossible to buy a game legitimately the resistance to piracy can easily crumble away. Dual audio's fairly trivial in comparison, if for some reason it ends up an issue on a PC release there's probably fan patches to address that, and similarly many of these games you can undub can ALSO be bought legitimately and used as a base to make an undubbed copy, thus just making it petty if you avoid buying it.
Square-Enix is interesting that their titles found mainstream Western success before there even was voice acting in games but Atlus is not, they seem to always go out of their way to not include JP audio in SMT titles just to spite their fans.
It seems issues just keep cropping up for them, though in the most recent non-P4A releases it can be a matter of space too. Massive PS2 game crammed down into a Vita cart, and the 3DS games also on a cart based system. There simply may be no room for both, not with how much VA they have versus the likes of RE:R or especially FE.

It's the lack of transparency that's frustrating, but I do think it's more likely they either have no space or the developer/publisher in Japan had no interest in securing international rights for VA or at least coding to allow an easy switch.
 
I feel like I'm the only one here who plays niche japanese games/watches anime or whatever and generally prefers to have things dubbed.
Im with you. I prefer stuff dubbed. Maybe my standards are low or something but Ive rarely played any Japanese games or watched any anime that had a bad English dub.
 

Terrell

Member
What gain does a voice actor have in region-locking their work?!? Why are publishers still permitting this practice?!?
 

Eusis

Member
Im with you. I prefer stuff dubbed. Maybe my standards are low or something but Ive rarely played any Japanese games or watched any anime that had a bad English dub.
How recently have you gotten into them? I'd find it hard to believe if this were the mid 90s, but anything from at least the half decade's usually been good or it's just a matter of that kind of character/performance not sounding great when attempted in English.
Or period.
 
Would Funimation, the North American market leader, continue to dub every single one of their releases if they felt no one would care if they went sub-only?

Edit: Oops, you meant dub-only stuff. Unless Japan is being an ass regarding Japanese language tracks due to fears of reverse importation, the only things that remain dub-only are like kids shows. Those get into the Wal-Marts, and other retail chains so they probably do sell better than Sentai Moe Release 28.

There have been some isolated cases where you get only a dub only release especially on Bluray just because Japan fears reverse importation. A recent popular one is the Persona 4 anime, since Sentai was all gunho on making sure to bank on P4G's release, ended up releasing a dub-only Bluray sets. Silly enough, the DVDs had both languages.
 

Takao

Banned
There have been some isolated cases where you get only a dub only release especially on Bluray just because Japan fears reverse importation. A recent popular one is the Persona 4 anime, since Sentai was all gunho on making sure to bank on P4G's release, ended up releasing a dub-only Bluray sets. Silly enough, the DVDs had both languages.

Well yeah, Japan and North America share the same Blu-Ray regions. With DVDs that's not the case. Even if it's painfully easy to unlock the region restrictions on a DVD player the Japanese seem to still see it as a deterrent.
 

Mandoric

Banned
What gain does a voice actor have in region-locking their work?!? Why are publishers still permitting this practice?!?

Actor: "You can pay me $X to use my work, but that's you. Someone else wants it, they've gotta cough up a couple hundred bucks too."
Company A: "Sure thing."
Company B: "Hey can we put your game out in the US?"
Company A: "Sure thing."
Company B: "Holy shit there's like twenty different actors, represented by like six different agents, and each agent wants to negotiate for a day or two before he'll sign a contract. That's at least one $5000 business trip and probably a few dozen triple-digit hours of lawyer time and double-digit hours of legal translator time, all to pay the actors themselves $4000 total, and on a game we're grossing a couple hundred grand on. Nope.jpg"
 

suzu

Member
I don't really care about dual audio, so long as the english writing/dialogue and voice acting is decent.

But for some reason I prefer to have fighting games on japanese audio if they're available. lol
 

Mandoric

Banned
There have been some isolated cases where you get only a dub only release especially on Bluray just because Japan fears reverse importation. A recent popular one is the Persona 4 anime, since Sentai was all gunho on making sure to bank on P4G's release, ended up releasing a dub-only Bluray sets. Silly enough, the DVDs had both languages.

The entire P4 mess, from what I've heard, is based on the fact that preorders of Sentai's two $50 Bluray sets on Amazon Japan outpaced preorders of each of the 9 or 10 individual $100 Japanese discs.

At that point, I don't think you can really blame Index for deciding that whatever Sentai was offering them for Japanese audio wasn't worth it.

OTOH DVD consumers are extremely low-information and retail-biased, and I don't believe Amazon Japan bothered soliciting the US DVDs themselves like they did the Blurays.
 

cj_iwakura

Member
I always watch a dub, and assume it will be good until proven otherwise.

If it's bad, I don't watch it, plain and simple.
 

raven777

Member
Its really sad situation, and like few have said, some of them are weird. Aeysha is a one that I don't understand becasue the past 3 titles (arland series) all had Japanese voice options and Aeysha don't I doubt the liscense of JP voice changed all of sudden in Aeysha.
 

t26

Member
Its really sad situation, and like few have said, some of them are weird. Aeysha is a one that I don't understand becasue the past 3 titles (arland series) all had Japanese voice options and Aeysha don't I doubt the liscense of JP voice changed all of sudden in Aeysha.

it been stated a few times, but Atelier Ayesha is published by Koei Tecmo and not NISA/Gust
 

vareon

Member
Thanks for sharing, Tom. I know licensing issues is one of the problem and it's good to hear from someone on the inside.

I generally welcome anything, dub or no dub. There are some exceptions, though. A Japanese game in a Japanese setting with Japanese names sounds awkward when spoken in English. And changing the names didn't help. Last one example I remember is Inazuma Eleven, with Japanese kids in a Japanese school playing football with the name of Mark Evans and Axel, etc. Things get particularly weird in the world cup, lol.
 

Terrell

Member
Actor: "You can pay me $X to use my work, but that's you. Someone else wants it, they've gotta cough up a couple hundred bucks too."
Company A: "Sure thing."
Company B: "Hey can we put your game out in the US?"
Company A: "Sure thing."
Company B: "Holy shit there's like twenty different actors, represented by like six different agents, and each agent wants to negotiate for a day or two before he'll sign a contract. That's at least one $5000 business trip and probably a few dozen triple-digit hours of lawyer time and double-digit hours of legal translator time, all to pay the actors themselves $4000 total, and on a game we're grossing a couple hundred grand on. Nope.jpg"
And yet Company A knows that, if those niche games are localized, they'd sell more with the original language track, since people don't buy dub-only titles (as evidenced by XSeed pleading for you not to snub games on that premise) and can write in international VO deals and use that as a justification for billing more for the license.
And one would think that a VO actor would offer the international package, as they'd make more money for the same amount of work.

Still not making much sense.
 
D

Deleted member 20920

Unconfirmed Member
squareenix is weird Their Asian version of FFXIII series and dissidia are using JP voice + eng sub, which mean they are willing/able to pay the license for using jp audio even tough it's a region that wasn't that big in term of sales compared to EU/NA.

Sony Asia is involve with the Square Enix Asian release.

Yup. And SE tend to release theior Japanese versions for the Asian market so those voices would have been in the contracts already. They probably negotiate for voices to be used in Japan and Asia in the first place.
 

Jasconius

Member
Tom said:
So yeah... bottom line, if you're going to "vote with your wallet," as it were, please make sure you know what you're voting FOR. By not supporting games that publishers had no choice but to dub, you're not sending the message that you want fewer dubs... you're sending the message that you want fewer games of that type released in English, period. And I'm pretty sure that's NOT the message you're trying to send.
This kind of reasoning drives me mad. Why should I pay for a game that I would never play? I'm picking up the JP version of Atelier Ayesha but if I didn't know Japanese well enough, I definitely would not buy it at all.

I realize that the publisher may have no way to distinguish between low sales due to no dual audio and low sales due to other factors, but that doesn't change the fact that as a consumer, I'm just trying to find good games that I will enjoy playing! It is the publishers' job to figure out which games have a target audience that will make them worth publishing, and having or not having dual audio should figure into that decision, not just be an afterthought.
StreetsAhead said:
Then why does it matter if a game is dual audio then?
There are a few reasons:

For PS3 I don't really care as much since I only have to have one, but it's really expensive to have two of every system!
Also, although it may seem weird, in most cases, as long as the writing is good, I prefer to play a version that has English text and the original language for audio.
Last, while in an ideal world I could just buy the original version of any game that I want at a reasonable price, there are various mechanisms everywhere to prevent this, from increased costs to import to region protection. Because of this, it makes sense to me to try and support English localizations when it is practical.
 
This kind of reasoning drives me mad. Why should I pay for a game that I would never play? I'm picking up the JP version of Atelier Ayesha but if I didn't know Japanese well enough, I definitely would not buy it at all.

Then why does it matter if a game is dual audio then?
 

wyrdwad

XSEED Localization Specialist
And yet Company A knows that, if those niche games are localized, they'd sell more with the original language track, since people don't buy dub-only titles (as evidenced by XSeed pleading for you not to snub games on that premise) and can write in international VO deals and use that as a justification for billing more for the license.

Actually, this wasn't XSEED pleading you not to snub games on that premise, it was *me*, personally, pleading you not to snub games on that premise.

To be perfectly honest, people DO seem to buy dub-only titles. I mean, our best-selling title to date is The Last Story, which is one where we sadly were unable to offer the original Japanese audio track. So I'm pretty sure the issue is one that applies only to a very small subsection of fans.

The only reason I said anything at all is because, frankly, I don't like the idea of snubbing ANY fans. You guys who refuse to play games without the original Japanese audio track are just as important to us as anyone else, and we really WISH we could give you what you want... but we can't. So the next best thing is simply to explain ourselves as best as our NDAs allow. We can't give you specific reasons as to why the Japanese audio was left out of any game we've published, but we can give you general reasons why Japanese audio is frequently omitted from games throughout the industry, and assure you that we did our best to include the original Japanese, and will continue to do our best in all future releases. And also assure you that the game itself is what really matters, and as long as we did our jobs right, you shouldn't find that the lack of Japanese voices takes you out of the experience at all.

As this seems to be a hotbutton issue for a lot of people, I would like to posit one other point as well:

And one would think that a VO actor would offer the international package, as they'd make more money for the same amount of work.

It's not really up to the actor, in most cases, but to the actor's agent. And because international law is so ridiculously convoluted, the actor's agent may simply not be equipped to deal with the paperwork and bureaucracy required for overseas distribution. Trust me when I say nothing is as easy as it seems from the outside -- XSEED was releasing games in North America exclusively until about two years ago when we finally broke the Europe barrier (but only for digital content), and we've finally expanded beyond the west as of last month with our first digital release in Australia and New Zealand. People often wonder why we waited so long to release in other countries, and the answer is... we didn't! We've been working on it all this time, but running into one roadblock after another trying to get all the red tape squared away.

We're a small company of less than a dozen people, with extremely limited experience and very few contacts outside of the U.S. and Japanese markets. Breaking into international distribution isn't just something you can do on a whim -- it costs money, takes time and requires a LOT of trial and error. Sadly, our world isn't quite as globalized as people seem to think it is -- just because the internet is a thing that exists doesn't mean there aren't a million firewalls in place keeping us from using it the way we want to. And I'm certain that same problem must apply to agency work as well.

So again, while I can't say for sure that Japanese voice agents aren't just being lazy bastards in a lot of cases, I really don't think it's fair simply to assume that that's the case. Most likely, they're just struggling to make ends meet, and can't afford the time and money it would take to expand to an international market just yet. Maybe as time goes on, more agencies will make this transition.

I realize that the publisher may have no way to distinguish between low sales due to no dual audio and low sales due to other factors, but that doesn't change the fact that as a consumer, I'm just trying to find good games that I will enjoy playing! It is the publishers' job to figure out which games have a target audience that will make them worth publishing, and having or not having dual audio should figure into that decision, not just be an afterthought.

It does. If we believe a game won't sell without dual audio, and dual audio simply isn't available to us as an option (even after much pleading with the developers), then we probably won't publish that game.

That really hasn't come up, though. Lack of dual audio isn't really a deal-breaker in most situations, as we're generally pretty confident that a game will sell on its own merits and on the strength of our localization. If our analysis of a game indicates that dual audio is absolutely necessary in order for it to succeed (rather than simply a nice extra to include for hardcore fans), then frankly, it's probably NOT a very good game.

-Tom
 

Jasconius

Member
It does. If we believe a game won't sell without dual audio, and dual audio simply isn't available to us as an option (even after much pleading with the developers), then we probably won't publish that game.

That really hasn't come up, though. Lack of dual audio isn't really a deal-breaker in most situations, as we're generally pretty confident that a game will sell on its own merits and on the strength of our localization. If our analysis of a game indicates that dual audio is absolutely necessary in order for it to succeed (rather than simply a nice extra to include for hardcore fans), then frankly, it's probably NOT a very good game.

-Tom
See this is what I figured, and is the reason your original quote drives me crazy. If you don't need the sales of the people who aren't interested without dual audio, don't implore us to buy the game! I do really appreciate that you guys try to go the extra mile to include the dual audio when at all possible, and I will continue to buy games that have it and interest me!
 

Alucrid

Banned
See this is what I figured, and is the reason your original quote drives me crazy. If you don't need the sales of the people who aren't interested without dual audio, don't implore us to buy the game! I do really appreciate that you guys try to go the extra mile to include the dual audio when at all possible, and I will continue to buy games that have it and interest me!

Well, I guess I don't see why you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. If the dub is good, and the game is good, and you want to play it, why not play it?
 

Mandoric

Banned
See this is what I figured, and is the reason your original quote drives me crazy. If you don't need the sales of the people who aren't interested without dual audio, don't implore us to buy the game! I do really appreciate that you guys try to go the extra mile to include the dual audio when at all possible, and I will continue to buy games that have it and interest me!

It's "c'mon guys, you want this game because it's an awesome game and not just because you like the lead actress, right?"

It's a pretty fair pitch. I know in your case and in mine it's not really true, but let's admit it, 95%+ of the JP TRACK OR NO SALE team don't speak a word of Japanese and can't tell a good performance from an early-career Chiaki Omigawa. Can't hurt to remind them of this fact.

We're a small company of less than a dozen people, with extremely limited experience and very few contacts outside of the U.S. and Japanese markets. Breaking into international distribution isn't just something you can do on a whim -- it costs money, takes time and requires a LOT of trial and error. Sadly, our world isn't quite as globalized as people seem to think it is -- just because the internet is a thing that exists doesn't mean there aren't a million firewalls in place keeping us from using it the way we want to. And I'm certain that same problem must apply to agency work as well.

So again, while I can't say for sure that Japanese voice agents aren't just being lazy bastards in a lot of cases, I really don't think it's fair simply to assume that that's the case. Most likely, they're just struggling to make ends meet, and can't afford the time and money it would take to expand to an international market just yet. Maybe as time goes on, more agencies will make this transition.

^Economies of scale/external fixed costs are everything. The VA just wants to sit down, talk for a couple hours, and be sure that doubling their money for double the regions/sales is a fair deal. The localizer is usually cool with this. But putting them in a room together involves an intercontinental flight and a sharp lawyer, so it sometimes falls through.
 

wyrdwad

XSEED Localization Specialist
See this is what I figured, and is the reason your original quote drives me crazy. If you don't need the sales of the people who aren't interested without dual audio, don't implore us to buy the game! I do really appreciate that you guys try to go the extra mile to include the dual audio when at all possible, and I will continue to buy games that have it and interest me!

Well, just 'cause we don't necessarily NEED your sales doesn't mean we wouldn't LIKE them, you know? ;) Besides which, every sale counts when you're as tiny as we are!

I guess I'm just asking you guys to give us a chance. For all you know, you might like the English voices better than the Japanese! I know I do, personally, for both Last Story and Pandora's Tower at the very least. Remember, just because something isn't the "original" doesn't mean it's automatically lower quality. Different, sure... but not always in a bad way!

(The funny thing about all of this is that my original quoted post was in response to Trails in the Sky 2. As in, someone saying they wouldn't buy it if we released it without the original Japanese voice track. And that's a game with only battle voices... and over which we've been slowly killing ourselves and addressing endless fan concerns for around two years now. I'm sure you can see why a post like that would warrant such a response, because seriously... if this were something like Corpse Party, sure, I couldn't really argue that much. But Trails 2 battle cries in English = no sale? Really?!)

-Tom
 
I'm starting to wonder if these die hard 'Japanese language track or no sale' lunatics snubbed DQ8's localization because it didn't have Japanese voiceover.
 

PAULINK

I microwave steaks.
This is pretty good insight, I always thought it was due to space or time restraints the reasons Japanese voices get left out. Even then, not having japanese voices isn't a dealbreaker for me, if I really want to play the game I can definitely live with an english dub.

I can understand why Altier fans would be miffed though, since they've had a history of dual audio, only to lack them in the 4th game.
 
So Tom is generally knockin' this out of the park, but I do want to say that this is part of why I really like working with indie/doujin developers. Recettear has Japanese audio because none of the complicated BS you see here applied; in fact, our contracts with EGS are delightfully simple. As is distribution. Ratings boards? DON'T NEED 'EM!* Europe? PERSONAL COMPUTERS, STEAM AND THE INTERNET! GET CRUNK! It's fantastic and is half the reason I haven't had us at Carpe Fulgur bother much with consoles to date - we'd reach fewer people and have to go through ten times the bureaucracy? Yeah, sure, sign me the hell up.

And yes, all sorts of reasons can stop Japanese audio from getting into a title. We rather famously didn't include the "professional" Japanese voice work in our release of Fortune Summoners, just the original indie stuff. The main reason was the price I got quoted for getting all that work in there - it stopped my heart when I heard it. Like I needed to be defibrillated. We've made a good profit on the title, both for ourselves and for Lizsoft back in Japan, but I don't think that would have been possible if we tried to get the "pros" in there (and tbh, I didn't like some of the performances anyway).

Also, I feel the need to quote this in its entirety:

The story of how Japan has been utterly incapable of monetizing anime in worldwide markets for decades would be a thread in itself. Japan's sclerotic business culture has led to the near collapse of their entire consumer electronics industry as the Koreans and Chinese besiege every industry segment they used to dominate but they still seem incapable of figuring out their problems. They are facing a catastrophic population collapse in the next 50 years due to aging and low birthrate but there isn't even any apparent will to deal with such a huge, possibly society threatening issue. So the problems with their export media markets are kind of small by comparison. They've been leaving this money on the table for so long that it seems like they will never fix the problems they are having with income streams.

I want to quote this forever. You would not believe what it takes, sometimes, to actually get these companies (or even indie/doujin groups) to want to make money outside of Japan. There are times you have to drag them, kicking and screaming all the way, toward profitability and success. You basically have to force them to let you do something good for them, and sometimes they just refuse.

Thankfully all of Carpe Fulgur's direct partners to date have been way, way better than that, but man, the stories I've heard. That I've seen, second hand. I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.

As a postscript, though, the Ayesha situation does clearly come down to Tecmo-Koei just being cheap as hell; it's clear they have easy access to the VA, but simply want to cut corners wherever possible. I can, on some level, understand why people are upset with that and wouldn't necessarily want to support it - but then, if you don't buy the game, they stop coming over entirely. It's an ugly catch-22.

Anyway, good thread so far.



*(Well, to some extent. I think if we tried to release a game with super-heavy swearing or decapitation or w/e without some sort of rating there'd be some fussing, but by and large, so long as our titles would get at most a T-ish rating anyway, there isn't much of a problem.)
 

Eusis

Member
People do buy dub only titles, even most of the people who whine about it.
Well, it's not something I'll cry over for video games, but for something like anime I generally DO care much more. But that's more why I refuse to seriously consider buying any of it digitally through iTunes or whatever as there's very clearly Japanese VA on the DVD/blu-ray releases, and can be hesitant about streaming through Netflix (but open to it so long as the performance is good or makes sense, and there's only a few series on there I really cared to stream anyway.) Games are much more complicated and it's plausible that whatever's mostly ironed out for international release most of the time on the TV/film front isn't on the game front. Plus it's generally the exception rather than the norm in games, when you fail to match the standard it's a bigger deal then managing to be an exception. It'd probably only REALLY matter in a game if it's to make bad VA, or if it's a sort of artsy, very much Japan based thing where the effect would be ruined in English, sort of like why it's more interesting for Ico/SotC or Panzer Dragoon to have their fantasy language.
(The funny thing about all of this is that my original quoted post was in response to Trails in the Sky 2. As in, someone saying they wouldn't buy it if we released it without the original Japanese voice track. And that's a game with only battle voices... and over which we've been slowly killing ourselves and addressing endless fan concerns for around two years now. I'm sure you can see why a post like that would warrant such a response, because seriously... if this were something like Corpse Party, sure, I couldn't really argue that much. But Trails 2 battle cries in English = no sale? Really?!)
For fuck's sake, someone really DID give that much of a shit. Was it pointed out that the most authentic experience was actually turning off the VA altogether, being that it's a PSP addition? But, yeah, while the knife sorta cuts both ways (there's so little it must be easier to work something out!) it's just not worth bothering with if it's a barrier at all given how much is even there.
I'm starting to wonder if these die hard 'Japanese language track or no sale' lunatics snubbed DQ8's localization because it didn't have Japanese voiceover.
Close here actually: I hoped they would've included options to play it like the Japanese original: graphic-less UI, synth music... and yes, the "Japanese VA" (blips and bloops for dialogue rather than silence like if you muted the VA.) But I didn't snub it since I really wanted more DQ period, the biggest REAL problem with the changes was adding loading times where they mostly eliminated them. Plus more DQ or no it was offering something I was wishing to see more of that generation and then some: traditional RPG towns you could fully explore, roughly to scale, and with a more immersive behind the shoulder perspective, it was something I really liked from Skies of Arcadia, but here they even did it for the whole world! When everyone seemed to think it was better to stick with fixed camera angles still and actually shrink and downplay towns it was amazing.
 

cuilan

Member
So why don't you buy the Japanese version?

This is exactly what I've been doing since the late 90s.

I grew tired of all the drama surrounding localizations (will this game have dual audio or not? will the dub be alright? will the translation be alright/accurate? will the game be censored in some way? will the game even be localized at all? etc.), so once I started learning Japanese, I decided from that point on I'd pretend that localizations didn't exist at all.

Though I did start making a few exceptions this generation, mainly for Japanese games that are designed with heavy western influence (Dark/Demon's Souls, Bayonetta, Vanquish, Resident Evil series, Metal Gear series, etc.)

One of the few times I actually bought the localized version of a very "Japanese" game was with XSEED's localization of Ragnarok Odyssey, and as soon as I started playing I quickly discovered that all of the Japanese audio was removed and replaced with English audio. From playing the Japanese demo, the voice track didn't seem all that fancy or elaborate, so it was rather surprising to me that it had been completely replaced. It didn't seem like the kind that would present any major licensing issues, but eh...what do I know?
 

blind51de

Banned
So how can the message be sent to talent agencies in Japan that they need to work in clauses to their actor's contracts that their work can be optioned to be used internationally with a royalty of x amount of yen per line, or something?

That seems to be the only way around this problem.
 

Eusis

Member
One of the few times I actually bought the localized version of a very "Japanese" game was with XSEED's localization of Ragnarok Odyssey, and as soon as I started playing I quickly discovered that all of the Japanese audio was removed and replaced with English audio. From playing the Japanese demo, the voice track didn't seem all that fancy or elaborate, so it was rather surprising to me that it had been completely replaced. It didn't seem like the kind that would present any major licensing issues, but eh...what do I know?
I suspect if it's not licensing then it's space/programming. Since space is probably not a problem here though then it's probably programming, and it may well be that you couldn't fit in English slots alongside Japanese slots, just one or the other. Actually I'm sure FE's an example of this, just that Nintendo went "well fuck it" and hacked it down from 7 + mute one language to 3 per language.
 

cuilan

Member
I suspect if it's not licensing then it's space/programming. Since space is probably not a problem here though then it's probably programming, and it may well be that you couldn't fit in English slots alongside Japanese slots, just one or the other. Actually I'm sure FE's an example of this, just that Nintendo went "well fuck it" and hacked it down from 7 + mute one language to 3 per language.

Regarding RO, licensing appears to be the most likely culprit. In the OP, they say it actually costs them more money to do an English dub, assuming that licensing the JP dub isn't an issue. Thus, it would have been cheaper for them to release RO with JP dub-only. So either it was too expensive to license, or perhaps they *really* wanted RO to have an English dub one way or another.
 

Eusis

Member
Well, an English dub costs more, BUT SCEA may be forbidding physical Vita releases that are undubbed without a good reason, and it's one of those cases where investing the money gets you more sales as you don't get people hearing it isn't in English and being dumb and dumping it.
 

Jasconius

Member
Well, just 'cause we don't necessarily NEED your sales doesn't mean we wouldn't LIKE them, you know? ;) Besides which, every sale counts when you're as tiny as we are!

I guess I'm just asking you guys to give us a chance. For all you know, you might like the English voices better than the Japanese! I know I do, personally, for both Last Story and Pandora's Tower at the very least. Remember, just because something isn't the "original" doesn't mean it's automatically lower quality. Different, sure... but not always in a bad way!
Haha, fair enough! I have been trained over the years to expect the worst, but it is true that I could consider a demo or watching videos on youtube or something first. It probably won't change anything, but I do feel sort of bad for pre-judging everything. ;p
(The funny thing about all of this is that my original quoted post was in response to Trails in the Sky 2. As in, someone saying they wouldn't buy it if we released it without the original Japanese voice track. And that's a game with only battle voices... and over which we've been slowly killing ourselves and addressing endless fan concerns for around two years now. I'm sure you can see why a post like that would warrant such a response, because seriously... if this were something like Corpse Party, sure, I couldn't really argue that much. But Trails 2 battle cries in English = no sale? Really?!)

-Tom
I have no stake in that one since I've never played any of them, but I can see where you're coming from. I just have heard the same logic before and people seem to bring it out anytime something like this happens.
 

cuilan

Member
Well, an English dub costs more, BUT SCEA may be forbidding physical Vita releases that are undubbed without a good reason, and it's one of those cases where investing the money gets you more sales as you don't get people hearing it isn't in English and being dumb and dumping it.

I know SCEA follows that policy regarding retail PS3 games, but didn't think they were doing it for Vita games as well. Though now that you mention it, I can't really think of any retail Vita games that were localized with only a JP dub...hmm...
 

Eusis

Member
I know SCEA follows that policy regarding retail PS3 games, but didn't think they were doing it for Vita games as well. Though now that you mention it, I can't really think of any Vita games that were localized with only a JP dub...hmm...
Admittedly the Vita's young, but Sony seems to have traditionally made this a policy with only Yakuza and some fighting games exempted (mostly PS1 ones I believe, though I think KoF ones on PS3 got through.) Perhaps any game with VERY minor VA's exempted, but I do believe it was a problem on PSP, and they seem to generally be a problem to get stuff approved with. Microsoft and Sony are frustrating with their approval policies in very different ways.
 

Shouta

Member
I know SCEA follows that policy regarding retail PS3 games, but didn't think they were doing it for Vita games as well. Though now that you mention it, I can't really think of any Vita games that were localized with only a JP dub...hmm...

It's a pretty standard policy from a sales standpoint. Properly localized products typically sell better on the whole, while mish-mashed ones can be a huge issue depending on what the item you're trying to sell is. An English track being a requirement is basically trying to make sure everything sells as much as possible, barring a few examples here or there.
 

Eusis

Member
It's a pretty standard policy from a sales standpoint. Properly localized products typically sell better on the whole, while mish-mashed ones can be a huge issue depending on what the item you're trying to sell is. An English track being a requirement is basically trying to make sure everything sells as much as possible, barring a few examples here or there.
Is kind of frustrating though from the perspective of "I'd really rather just get the damn game", given in some cases they'll just walk out if they can't get it released without a dub as they ARE expensive as noted, plus some are set to only have a niche appeal anyway. At least DD offers something of an out, but I still think it's kind of shitty, especially as some of these games come from publishers who are more inclined to make a decent retail package.
 
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