Napoleonthechimp
Member
Moffat has defended RTD many times so I very much doubt he hates his run on Doctor Who. The 10th and 11th chapter thing just comes off as a tongue-in-cheek joke.
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Doctor Who Series Seven |OT| The Question You've Been Running From All Your Life
- Thread starter Mr. Sam
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Exterminieren
Banned
He invites him back every year to contribute a script.
But, you know, he clearly deeply hates him and everything he stood for on the show. I mean, Moffat thinks his own work is good, and that clearly means he considers everyone else's work in the history of the show to be beneath contempt.
APZonerunner
Member
I think for me, Moffat is everything I want in a writer and not really what I want in a show runner, and RTD is the opposite of that. A show ran by the both of them with duties split to individual's strengths would probably be incredible.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Okay bud, I think there's a slight difference between saying he might be trying to distance himself from RTD's era and calling him a paedo. I might be wrong, I'm not crazy. God forbid anybody bring up Moffatt and women...
infiniteloop
Member
It's funny reading the spoiler thread on GB and seeing the same people/avatars as here lol
Exterminieren
Banned
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that what you're doing is anywhere near as bad, but I've got very little tolerance for people using his work to try and back up their preconceptions of the man.
I think that's the best analysis and idea regarding the show i've heard.
I love Moffat, and it's probably because of his two-parters in the RTD era that i'm a fan of the show. The Eleventh Hour was incredible, but outside of that I have trouble identifying Moffat episodes on par with his previous work. That's understandable, he's got a lot of work. I don't think there's no denying he's a better writer than a producer. RTD is the opposite of course- his seasons came across as better mapped and planned.
Whoever the new showrunner is be it Gatiss, Chibnall, whenever that is, I still hope Moffat will still have an influence or a voice in that. Guest episodes again would be incredible.
equippedwithtowel
Member
The biggest problem I have with the Moffat era is the movement away from harder sci-fi (in the best stories of the RTD era) to the time-wimey adventure show co-starring River Song.
Parts of the sixth season were starting to draw from the Whedon school of dialogue and actual interesting concepts were pushed to the background or squandered.
The Angels are probably my biggest grief. In Blink they were one of the best original sci-fi monsters since the Xenomorphs. They were pure, terrifying predators. Then The Time of Angels started pouring on stupid powers (the image of an angel?) that they really didn't need to be effective. By S7 there's fucking baby angels and the statue of liberty is an angel and they apparently can feed off locking down a populated building in time and humans know about and attempt to exploit them.
Moffat is a great writer who needs to recognize that his creations might only work in specific context and/or have a short lifespan.
Parts of the sixth season were starting to draw from the Whedon school of dialogue and actual interesting concepts were pushed to the background or squandered.
The Angels are probably my biggest grief. In Blink they were one of the best original sci-fi monsters since the Xenomorphs. They were pure, terrifying predators. Then The Time of Angels started pouring on stupid powers (the image of an angel?) that they really didn't need to be effective. By S7 there's fucking baby angels and the statue of liberty is an angel and they apparently can feed off locking down a populated building in time and humans know about and attempt to exploit them.
Moffat is a great writer who needs to recognize that his creations might only work in specific context and/or have a short lifespan.
Exterminieren
Banned
I'm sorry, I can't really agree with that one.
Episodes like The Doctor's Wife and The Girl Who Waited were harder sci-fi than Davies ever attempted, outside of maybe The Waters of Mars. As much as I love his era, Davies's series was pure comic-book, not sci-fi novel.
Episodes like The Doctor's Wife and The Girl Who Waited were harder sci-fi than Davies ever attempted, outside of maybe The Waters of Mars. As much as I love his era, Davies's series was pure comic-book, not sci-fi novel.
equippedwithtowel
Member
I was more referring to Moffat the writer vs. Moffat the showrunner.
I'll take TGITF, Blink or The Empty Child over The Doctor's Wife any day of the week.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
The angels did get hideously overused.
I agree with some of the criticism regarding the cohesiveness of series 6 and 7 in comparsion to RTD's seasons (though I still think season 5 works the best out of any of them) but for me the time of angels / flesh and stone, the pandorica opens / the big bang, and the impossible astronaut / day of the moon are Moffat's strongest episodes save Blink. I've always thought the empty child and silence in the library to be highly overrated and manifestly inferior to Moffat's other episodes.
Excellent
Blink
The Girl in the Fireplace
The Time of Angels / Flesh & Stone
The Impossible Astronaut / Day of the Moon
The Pandorica Opens / The Big Bang
The Eleventh Hour
Asylum of the Daleks
Good
The Empty Child / The Doctor Dances
Silence in the Library / Forest of the Dead
A Good Man Goes To War
Let's Kill Hitler
A Christmas Carol
The Snowmen
The Angels Take Manhattan
The Bells of Saint John
Average
The Beast Below
The Wedding of River Song
The Doctor the Widow and the Wardrobe
Even his worst episodes will have at least one interesting element or plot device in it though. He still hasn't written anything as bad as RTD's worst.
The only thing offensively bad about the Angels to me was the Statue or Liberty because it made no sense that it would be even able to move unnoticed and it ended up meaning literally nothing in the episode. Image of an angel & baby angels were cool and appropriately frightening concepts imo.
Exterminieren
Banned
I'd take The Doctor's Wife over at least TGITF and Blink, although I take the point.
Although... TGITF and The Empty Child, sci-fi? TGITF focuses around the Doctor stepping through magic doors and falling in love with a princess, and The Empty Child concludes with a rampaging monster being soothed by a hug from its mummy. It's less obvious than when he was running the show, but Moffat's fairy tale trappings have been very visible right from the start.
grimshawish
Banned
The ones at the back close their eyes, then the ones in front. All the way to the front who step forward. Seriously, peoples complaints about Moffat are so nit-picky, hes not perfect but its not worth getting worked up about the majority of the time.
equippedwithtowel
Member
The biggest crime of Flesh and Stone was CGing an angel moving. In Blink the audience were a viewpoint alongside the characters.
grimshawish
Banned
Meh. Hes hardly Terry Nation is he?
You haven't watched it in a while then - there's a scene of the angels throwing the phonebox around from the outside when no-one is looking at them.
What about all of the amazing things in time of angels / flesh and stone like the timey-wimey pre-credits sequence (still unmatched) - all of the statues being angels, amy's "countdown", two doctor's in a forest, not to mention the finale foreshadowing,or IAIN GLEN. For every punctilious criticism there's ten ways in which the story excelled.
APZonerunner
Member
...holy shit.
Ah valid point actually. But it's not about nit picking really, this is the main characteristic of the Weeping Angels. You can't expect the have no one looking at the Statue of Liberty, a massive iconic statue which has guards around it, boats around it and especially after the whole 'an image of an angel becomes an angel' would mean that millions of postcards and videos should be terrorizing the world.
I loved the angels. They were brilliant in Blink, but it's silly that such a well designed and thought out and pseudo-scientifically reasonable (the quantum locked explanation is brilliant) enemy has every fact stated about it in an episode broken in their next appearance. Besides, look up, I said I loved pretty much everything Moffat's done, but I'm not going to ignore the mistakes.
EleventhDoctor
Banned
Can't argue with that. My intiial thought upon seeing that was "Holy shit, that's awesome" , Then it was "Wait a tick...."
For the most part I agree with. I'd put Wedding in the "good" category and Library in Excellent-but otherwise spot on.
mightynine
Member
I do so love how every Who thread ends up in a RTD/Moffat debate. It's like clockwork.
I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.
I blame Quick's rewatch though. I'd completely forgotten about the off screen Amy switch and then the reveal. Felt a bit cheaty to me now that I remembered.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Honestly, Wedding of River Song comes close for me. I posted a couple pages back about how I was unable to decide if that or Last of the Time Lords was the worst season closer of the revival.
I've come to respect the direction Moffat has taken the show (and I genuinely like a fair number of the episodes under his run, especially most of S7) but RTD's style is just more enjoyable to me.
APZonerunner
Member
Like a 'best Final Fantasy' debate, it is the inevitable end of almost all new Who discussions. Like those debates, the truth is that each brings a different thing.
Hot Coldman
Banned
The truth of FF is that everything after 6 is the wrong answer, I thought
equippedwithtowel
Member
Get out.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Woah, extreme comparison there. The quality between RTD and Moffatt DW is waaaay less than say... FF6-FF13.
APZonerunner
Member
Just you wait until we start the Chibnall era!
infiniteloop
Member
So... I finished the Davison era the other day. It wasn't bad, really.. it was just bland.
I've no problem with Davison as the Doctor, he just never really comes across as very Doctorish. None of the companions are likable, most of the stories are boring. Caves is the only thing that really stood out.
I've no problem with Davison as the Doctor, he just never really comes across as very Doctorish. None of the companions are likable, most of the stories are boring. Caves is the only thing that really stood out.
The Elite
BOSS
Davison is one of my favourites. He doesn't have the same energy as some of the other Doctor's but I recall enjoying a lot of the stories.
God, if Gatiss or Chibnall take over I'm out. Whithouse I could tolerate.
equippedwithtowel
Member
Can I get one last cheap shot in at Angels In Manhattan?
Because the baby angels were really stupid.
Because the baby angels were really stupid.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
PhoncipleBone
Banned
Word. Six is still best.
acheron_xl
Member
Davison's era was seriously lacking in whimsy (celery doesn't count). I think he was a great actor, but he'll always feel miscast to me. A lot of good stories there, though; the best of what 80's Who had to offer. And the most underrated companion ever in Turlough.
infiniteloop
Member
Turlough was probably the best Davison companion, just got a bit boring after he decided not to kill the Doctor.
And Broadchurch, I'm guessing?
Which is practically Who given the people behind it.
(One past Doctor, one actor about to play a past Doctor who also played a villain, one other person who played a brief form a villain adopted, one companion, one writer, two directors... and, for good measure, a random appearance from one of the guys from Absolutely. I'm fully expecting the killer to turn out to be The Rani.)
(Fair's fair, given the rightful Chibnall grumbling upthread, he's doing really well with Broadchurch)
Yep. In all fairness to him at least the power of three was 3/4 of a good episode - Mark Gatiss hasn't even done that yet (though his episodes this year both look interesting) - and Broadchurch is pretty good, even if it's just the killing reskinned.
grimshawish
Banned
Whats your favourite series of Torchwood?
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Broadchurch is awesome btw, all go watch.
equippedwithtowel
Member
42 was good.
grimshawish
Banned
I actually agree with this. Theres some hate online for it but I think its more born from annoyance over Torchwood than the episodes own qualities. Nothing spectacular but good.
The Elite
BOSS
I haven't watched 42 since it aired. I need to give it another shot.
I liked it at the time but after coming back to it it's pretty mediocre. Maybe it seemed better back in 2007 because it was in competition with abjectly terrible episodes like the Shakespeare Code, Daleks in Manhattan and the Lazarus Experiment
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