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Adam Orth no longer with Microsoft

JABEE

Member
I hope that isn't the case, there's a difference in saying a somewhat controversial opinion and downright insulting your customer base. Orth did the latter.

I would have been okay with him giving a formal public apology in a written letter, but it's really not my call to make.

Sometimes you have to learn a lesson the hard way unfortunately.
I always thought this was pretty much the sentiment before this event.

The risk of creating a negative news cycle aren't worth it. I'd have to imagine they do it to curry favor with outlets and also to get writers to hang out with people from their studios.
 
D

Diggeh

Unconfirmed Member
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Someone needs to lock Gies' account. I'm exhausted from Gies-quoting Gies.
 
I think he got fired, forced to quit, or suggested to quit because he discussed an unannounced product in a way that brought negative attention to the company he worked for. I don't think being more polite would have changed the fact that this discussion was not a wise one.

But I think the reason why he got quite so much attention is because he was venting in a rude way, and people who read it felt personally defensive and insulted by what he was saying, and so it spread and snowballed. I think if he had tweeted something like "Do people really get much downtime these days? My internet access is pretty much 100%" or "It seems to me like giving up a little reliability is an acceptable sacrifice for some of the stuff cutting-edge tech enables", he'd still have some people disagreeing, but he'd have the moral high ground because it would be a lot less rude and flippant to other human beings.

I don't quite buy that, people can re-frame things in any context, it just so happen this time Adam Orth already provided us with a negative framework to work with. Look at the selective pics that show Gies' view on the new Xbox where he state he dislikes it, but yet many GAF members stitch together his reply to specific individuals stating that it's Microsoft's choice though. He was clearly implying that Microsoft already has their plans and we might as well go PS4.

Did him antagonizing his customers accelerated the process? Yeah, most likely. But he made comments on an unreleased product and it was going to gain traction in a negative light no matter what considering his stance.
 
Company in-jokes should stay in the company. And don't be a dick.

Two lessons learned.

I still feel bad for the guy. I'm sure he's not a bad person and he just made a big lapse in judgment. I hope he learns from this, moves on, and lands on his feet.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
He never once said anything about Microsoft. The only reason we even knew he worked at Microsoft is because of his bio that said his position at the company. But Aaron Greenberg also has his title at MS in his bio so I wouldn't call it bragging.

Why would you put your job title in your Twitter profile if you didn't want it to represent you?
 

JABEE

Member
He isn't the story though. Orth was fired or let go for his comments. It's a shame, but he signed the NDAs and is a representative of his company when he puts MSG Creative Director in his profile or represents himself as a public figure.
 
You know when you have basically the entire internet getting onto this, along with tons of professional news sites doing stories on it, you have to admit you probably did mess up badly at some point. The internet is a huge place with tons of people of so many different types using it. I have a hard time seeing anyone could call "the internet" wrong about matters of opinion like this.

Maybe you as just one man don't have a problem with this, but a lot of people did. Why does your opinion trump the opinions of hundreds of thousands of other as the one right opinion about how much this matters.

If a large number of people think it matters, than it does matter, whether you like it or not.
But at the root, people got upset over some flippant tweets in regard to a gaming console. I mean, why do people give a shit? So a Microsoft employee said "deal with it" and joked about not wanting to live in a particular part of the country. None of that by itself was even close to being a big deal. There were people in the thread acting like they had never been so offended in their lives.

Then off the back of this there were threads upon threads about the next Xbox, or rather rumors about the next Xbox. Folks had all but decided what always online actually meant when they had absolutely no clue what Microsoft have planned. Others were discussing boycotts.

The whole situation was absurd. And you can say that a lot of people got angry over this, but it was a very particular type of person. People who go on gaming forums probably don't even account for the majority of gamers. The story got picked up because that particular type of person kicked up such a stink. Plus, from what I remember the story was only picked up by specialists sites and perhaps got the odd article hidden away in the depths of mainstream sites.

I don't know, from the get go I found it hard to care. I'd be inclined to agree with others in here, the internet does tend to take things to extremes.

As a side I often see people complain about the use of terms like the internet or GAF. When I use these terms, I don't actually believe or even mean to imply that all of the internet or all of GAF are some sort of hivemind. Rather I think those terms are a shorthand way of referring to large sections or communities of people who are of the same frame of mind.
 

Vire

Member
But at the root, people got upset over some flippant tweets in regard to a gaming console. I mean, why do people give a shit? So a Microsoft employee said "deal with it" and joked about not wanting to live in a particular part of the country. None of that by itself was even close to being a big deal. There were people in the thread acting like they had never been so offended in their lives.

Then off the back of this there were threads upon threads about the next Xbox, or rather rumors about the next Xbox. Folks had all but decided what always online actually meant when they had absolutely no clue what Microsoft have planned. Others were discussing boycotts.

The whole situation was absurd. And you can say that a lot of people got angry over this, but it was a very particular type of person. People who go on gaming forums probably don't even account for the majority of gamers. The story got picked up because that particular type of person kicked up such a stink. Plus, from what I remember the story was only picked up by specialists sites and perhaps got the odd article hidden away in the depths of mainstream sites.

I don't know, from the get go I found it hard to care. I'd be inclined to agree with others in here, the internet does tend to take things to extremes.

As a side I often see people complain about the use of terms like the internet or GAF. When I use these terms, I don't actually believe or even mean to imply that all of the internet or all of GAF are some sort of hivemind. Rather I think those terms are a shorthand way of referring to large sections or communities of people who are of the same frame of mind.

This is absolutely false.

It was on the front page as a top story on Yahoo.com

If you don't think this was a publicity nightmare for Microsoft, you have another thing coming.
 
It just goes to show how you have to watch what you say. Obama made a remark about Kamala Harris and calling her the best looking attorney general. To me this isn't a big deal but I guess to other attorney generals they could take it as an insult.

People are just way too touchy. When cellphones first came out hardly anyone thought of not having a land line. Now lots of people use their cellphones as their main phone and no land line. So I can see where the guy is coming from. I use Playstation Plus and can't imagine not having my system not be always on. Some think it means you can't play games unless it's got a connection. I don't think that's what they have planned but if they do it will be a nightmare for the PR when there are connection issues.
 

GetemMa

Member
Twitter claims another person who simply could not help themselves and just back away from the computer before exposing their real personality to the masses.

Does Twitter have some sort of addictive property that I haven't experienced?
 
I don't get why people are celebrating a guy losing his job. Especially over a stupid internet rant

well I guess I'm a jerk because I find it totally hilarious that he got fired over this. I have no sympathy for him at all and I think he totally deserved it. I guess some people think it sucks that he got fired, well I think it would suck if he kept his job. You're supposed to get fired for massive fuckups on the job , and I consider acting like a caustic antagonizing asshole towards millions of potential customers to be a massive fuckup. Not to mention that he might have given away secrets about the online thing, which is another fuckup.

So he lost his job because he fucked up even though his fuckup was something EASILY avoidable, and will have to go job hunting and most likely have to settle for another job that pays less for awhile. Things get bad he might have to collect some unemployment for awhile. Boohoo. He isn't getting thrown out on the street to live in a cardboard box for the rest of his life, with no chance of ever getting a decent job again. He's getting let go and he's going to have to show some resiliency, but that shit happens to people everyday. I've seen hard working people get laid off from their jobs for far more unfortunate reasons than this, and those people demonstrate some resiliency. He can do the same thing.
 

codecow

Member
It's a shame development and publishers can't be more opened, but marketing and sales people want all information to be leaked out according to a schedule.

If out-of-context quotes didn't end up as Kotaku headlines, do you think publishers would be more open? I'm not sure. I think they would still be pretty closed because there is no proof that allowing developers to talk will improve your sales.

I think there's no business advantage to it and in many cases it can be counterproductive to state what you're really thinking, why you're really doing something, why a particular game is the way that it is, etc...

Personally I'd like to explain things because I'm part of the gaming community as a gamer and I'd like to clear up common misconceptions that people have about the industry at least in my experience because I think that gamers would be interested in what I have to say.

Certainly a younger me back when I was posting on BBS and usenet would have loved to have the access to developers that people (including myself) now enjoy but realistically we can't really say all that much about anything.
 

kenjisalk

Member
There is really no excuse for this kind of thing happening, and it surprises me that a man who held such a position within the company would have so little grasp as to the impact his public behavior (in any capacity) has for said organization.

Did the man have zero PR training? It's a pretty rookie mistake.

I know that some in this thread seem very eager to forgive such a flub, but the marketplace and shareholders aren't so merciful. The same thing would happen if someone pulled this crap in some other industry.

When you take on a job like his, you accept the reality that you represent the company and no matter the venue or context, you saying stupid shit or acting confrontational with your customers will screw you.

He has nobody to blame but himself. Hopefully at his next job he won't be so short-sighted and flippant.
 

orznge

Banned
well I guess I'm a jerk because I find it totally hilarious that he got fired over this. I have no sympathy for him at all and I think he totally deserved it. I guess some people think it sucks that he got fired, well I think it would suck if he kept his job. You're supposed to get fired for massive fuckups on the job , and I consider acting like a caustic antagonizing asshole towards millions of potential customers to be a massive fuckup. Not to mention that he might have given away secrets about the online thing, which is another fuckup.

So he lost his job because he fucked up even though his fuckup was something EASILY avoidable, and will have to go job hunting and most likely have to settle for another job that pays less for awhile. Things get bad he might have to collect some unemployment for awhile. Boohoo. He isn't getting thrown out on the street to live in a cardboard box for the rest of his life, with no chance of ever getting a decent job again. He's getting let go and he's going to have to show some resiliency, but that shit happens to people everyday. I've seen hard working people get laid off from their jobs for far more unfortunate reasons than this, and those people demonstrate some resiliency. He can do the same thing.

.
 

vareon

Member
That was unfortunate. But the tweets are pretty stupid and he has to deal with the consequences of anything he did. Hope he finds another job (and not create a PR disaster for the company) soon, for the sake of him and his family.
 

Epcott

Member
I think people should be nicer to each other. I think the root of the problem with the Orth tweets is that they weren't very nice, they were flippant and condescending ("deal with it", "why would anyone live there?"). I don't think he started from the assumption that people were legitimately upset, had real concerns. I think he mostly jumped to conclusions about others without giving them a fair shake.

I think Arthur's attitude on twitter is generally pretty poor and rude to others, and I think his ongoing campaign to complain about GAF rather than engage in constructive discussion is pretty rude--he has an account and can easily defend himself here or make an affirmative case for his words instead of sniping. I think most of the times where he's faced criticism here, even rude criticism or sometimes insults, it's been as a result of statements he's made that have been rude or judgmental or flippant.

I think the schadenfreude here and on many forums towards people in the industry is a mean at times. I think gravedancing in general is pretty crass, even if in some cases it is understandable. It'd be a better world if more people were happy and nicer to each other, and that has to start by being nice to people who aren't very nice. I think if someone is a negative influence in your life or you think they're a big jerk and a blowhard, you'll be happy if you learn to ignore them or go beyond them, you'll be happier. Worse than people who are bad influences and who generate unhappiness are people who relish getting angry at them rather than learning to let go and move on.

I think empathy and modesty go hand-in-hand, and starting from a modest perspective makes it easier to empathize with others. It also functions as a great way of keeping a check on yourself, because if you're modest, chances are you'll be more able to understand when someone calls attention to mistakes you've made. I think having a personal filter and being able to self-censor and choosing to do so at times where your meanest, cruelest, rudest, or most judgmental instincts surface is a good thing. For the most part, there's a calmer, less rude way of obtaining the result you're hoping to maintain and for the most part, the person you're being rude to is probably not at their best either and if you give them the chance to calm down and articulate themselves a little better, they will.

I think you can be passionately convinced of something, and deliver pointed (and even personal!) criticism about something or someone, but in general conversations should start with empathy, the presumption of good faith, and trying to understand how someone's assumptions lead to their conclusions (even if you disagree with them). And if someone squanders that presumption of good faith, and defies even extraordinary attempts to empathize with them, and makes themselves visible in a way that you could never, ever ignore them, then whatever anger you feel at them will be justified in the end because you know you've done your best to give them a chance to explain themselves.

I don't think very many people come off very well in all this.

<3 Oh PowPow, you had me at "I think..."

But yes, it's true. People often fail to think of the consequences of their comments and repercussions that may ensue.

That said I think Orth (or people in his position) are paid for their discretion as well as for their creative input, and in this case, discretion was thrown out the window in a public display. However, I can't say that it's satisfying to hear of someone losing their job in these difficult times.
 
Right, but people are not mindless drones either.
I was kind of shocked by that tweet too, until i read about the context in which it was given, at which point i didn't give it as much weight.

So the venue in which he made that comment wasn't appropriate, but people are still able to recognize that mistake and put it into context, once the missing information is provided.

You can't assume that initial shock reaction isn't the only one experienced by a significant number of followers. 100% recovery from these sorts of PR mistakes is just not possible, and companies like Microsoft care about that 100%. The damage and risk he caused them isn't something you just shrug off.
 

Eusis

Member
Twitter claims another person who simply could not help themselves and just back away from the computer before exposing their real personality to the masses.

Does Twitter have some sort of addictive property that I haven't experienced?
I think at its core it's just because it's a place you'll get to speak your mind or carry conversations with others over, and most people don't conciously think of the angle that the whole world may be watching. It ended up making that Twitter exchange basically like if you were having a conversation with a friend while eating or something... except it was on stage in front of everyone else, and you somehow forgot this. When viewed as just being that kind of conversation it IS relatively harmless, albeit still kind of flippant, but not in a way people would care unless it was broadcasted to everyone, at which point it became a Big Deal.

So, I guess you sorta CAN blame the internet, but more on the nature of how internet changes how we interact and that we don't always keep that in mind, but that still means it's his mistake, not everyone else's, especially as other remarks were still pretty ignorant (vacuums require electricity as a means to function at all, much like game consoles. But game consoles do not always need the internet, and when they do for the nature of the product people usually don't mind.)
 

Vire

Member
I think there's no business advantage to it and in many cases it can be counterproductive to state what you're really thinking, why you're really doing something, why a particular game is the way that it is, etc...

Personally I'd like to explain things because I'm part of the gaming community as a gamer and I'd like to clear up common misconceptions that people have about the industry at least in my experience because I think that gamers would be interested in what I have to say.

Certainly a younger me back when I was posting on BBS and usenet would have loved to have the access to developers that people (including myself) now enjoy but realistically we can't really say all that much about anything.

Personally, I have a much greater respect for developers who have a meaningful level of community interaction and I'm much more willing to purchase their games.

I love that Bungie, 343, Naughty Dog, Sony Santa Monica and Visceral all post on here, even sometimes admitting that not everything is perfect.

I remember when Naughty Dog invited some members of GAF to their studio to try and help fix the aiming issues in Uncharted 3 that some people experienced. I was absolutely blown away that they would go to those lengths to appease their customers and have that level of interaction with the fans.

Good faith goes a long way in my book.
 
D

Deleted member 30609

Unconfirmed Member
conflating being honest and communicative with your community and being disrespectful, vague and generally rude with said community is a disappointing trend I'm seeing from some devs posting here at the moment.

The issue here wasn't one of content, it was of respect. It shouldn't be an "us vs them" issue. If you have something you want to say, take the time to articulate it correctly. Don't type 140-something condescending characters and then act shocked when you're called out on it.

There are many developers who post here often who don't have this issue.
 

VanWinkle

Member
Nobody minds if someone in the game industry lets their opinions be known; it's when you do it like Orth did it that it becomes unacceptable. He definitely brought it upon himself, being incredibly rude and obtuse. I feel bad for him being out of what was probably a nice job, but people shouldn't see this is a lesson in not voicing your opinions if you're in the industry. The lesson is an old one: don't be a jerk about it.
 
But at the root, people got upset over some flippant tweets in regard to a gaming console. I mean, why do people give a shit? So a Microsoft employee said "deal with it" and joked about not wanting to live in a particular part of the country. None of that by itself was even close to being a big deal. There were people in the thread acting like they had never been so offended in their lives.

Then off the back of this there were threads upon threads about the next Xbox, or rather rumors about the next Xbox. Folks had all but decided what always online actually meant when they had absolutely no clue what Microsoft have planned. Others were discussing boycotts.

The whole situation was absurd. And you can say that a lot of people got angry over this, but it was a very particular type of person. People who go on gaming forums probably don't even account for the majority of gamers. The story got picked up because that particular type of person kicked up such a stink. Plus, from what I remember the story was only picked up by specialists sites and perhaps got the odd article hidden away in the depths of mainstream sites.

I don't know, from the get go I found it hard to care. I'd be inclined to agree with others in here, the internet does tend to take things to extremes.

As a side I often see people complain about the use of terms like the internet or GAF. When I use these terms, I don't actually believe or even mean to imply that all of the internet or all of GAF are some sort of hivemind. Rather I think those terms are a shorthand way of referring to large sections or communities of people who are of the same frame of mind.

I would personally expect a bit more tact (or perhaps a bit more thoughtfulness) from an employee from one of the biggest companies in the world, regardless if the tweets came from a personal account. They're public messages sent amidst rumors which have garnered tons of speculation, and folks have drawn their own conclusions and made up their minds. It didn't help that in relation to the industry, we were just coming out of a major release that requires an internet connection having a ton of problems at launch, which just further added fuel to the fire.

People are already in fear of the next Microsoft console requiring an constant internet connection even for its most basic functions. So when people deduce that a Microsoft employee is being incredibly facetious about it, it's going to cause a stir. This is where communication today, for better or worse, even if it means "the internet" grabs their "pitchforks."

Plus, I mean, the analogies Orth made were incredibly off base and inaccurate.
 

Discusguy

Member
Adam got what he deserved. I feel no pity for the guy. Its not like he is new social media. There are countless stories of peoples lives being ruined because of their big mouths. For someone his age and position there just isn't any good reasons to do what he did.
 

Shinta

Banned
I think it's always interesting when people try and insinuate that a forum or the internet fired this guy. Microsoft fired this guy. Any and all complaints about this being excessive, or the wrong call should be directed solely at Microsoft and no one else. Even David Jaffe was posting on here in the initial thread, asking "NeoGAF" to not push for the guy getting fired. No one on here had anything to do with that.

He put the comments out, and his employer fired him. Everyone else just talked about it. And make no mistake, the comments definitely deserved to be talked about. Any and all responsibility for this falls on Orth, and Microsoft.
 
conflating being honest and communicative with your community and being disrespectful, vague and generally rude with said community is a disappointing trend I'm seeing from some devs posting here at the moment.

I issue here wasn't one of content, it was of respect. It shouldn't be an "us vs them" issue. If you have something you want to say, take the time to articulate it correctly. Don't type 140-something condescending characters and then act shocked when you're called out on it.

There are many developers who post here often who don't have this issue.

Love this. There was a lack of respect for his employer in there too, he just overplayed his hand.
 
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