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[Haly]

Why is her hair and boobs being blown backward, but the skirt is being blown in all directions?

What a hack, Kamitani needs to address this right now!

 

[Mr.Monitor]

We are not talking about whether or not we want to buy a product, but about how a design might be considered dumb given the cultural context of video games.

You might've been, but I certainly wasn't. I'm just saying you don't gotta buy the game. I don't see how that's irrelevant to a thread about the damn game.

 

[Warm Machine]

We are not talking about whether or not we want to buy a product, but about how a design might be considered dumb given the cultural context of video games.

What cultural context? That because certain content in certain games exist that they serve to speak for the entirety of the content in the entire industry? That is a ridiculous notion.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Actually, since some people become so personally offended and defensive whenever someone use the descriptor 'sexist' of an object, I'm going to use the descriptor 'dumb' instead. Hopefully people won't post knee-jerk reactions:

This is dumb.

Yet shit like this gets a free pass:

I am actually starting to believe that if this was a western game it would not be getting half the flack its getting right now.

 

[Remachinate]

THIS THIS THIS. The way a game's female characters are written, how they fit into the story and gameplay and how empowered they are, says much more about the creators' intent to create compelling female characters (or lack of intent) than how the characters look.

The problem is that intent is meaningless; what matters the audience perceives and interprets the game. Despite the Sorceress' agency, her empowerment is undermined by the fact that her character is defined solely by her sexuality.

 

[michaelius]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=49966935&postcount=5774

Watching stupid soap operas reduces my efficiency compared to not watching them since i can't concentrate when confronted with something so idiotic.
But i found a briliant solution - i don't watch them.

Feel free to provide some data that suggests that men and women needs have to be fullfilled by same product.

 

[Risette]

The problem is that intent is meaningless; what matters the audience perceives and interprets the game. Despite the Sorceress' agency, her empowerment is undermined by the fact that her character is defined solely by her sexuality.

Actually I think her character is defined by her sorcery. It's in the name.

 

[suzu]

Actually, since some people become so personally offended and defensive whenever someone use the descriptor 'sexist' of an object, I'm going to use the descriptor 'dumb' instead. Hopefully people won't post knee-jerk reactions:

http://abload.de/img/dragonscrowne1xo9.gif

This is dumb.

It is dumb. And not exempt from criticism.

Both "sides" have provided knee-jerk reactions though.

 

[The Tofunator]

Yet shit like this gets a free pass:

I'm pretty sure that got plenty of flack.

 

[DarkKyo]

Actually, since some people become so personally offended and defensive whenever someone use the descriptor 'sexist' of an object, I'm going to use the descriptor 'dumb' instead. Hopefully people won't post knee-jerk reactions:

This is dumb.

The only people who are offended are the ones who think they have a right to tell artists what is or isn't morally justified. If you mean sexist, say sexist. If you find something dumb you are of the opinion that it's dumb. Either way it's just an opinion you have, and you can't emphatically say that something is wrong or right. It's just not for you.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Given the many instances of systemic and direct sexism in the cultural context and history of the video games medium, the character design is a symptom of a larger problem. Of course it's going to be criticized for being harmful.

Has it been sufficiently demonstrated outside of gaming that women become marginalized both as consumers and producers of art as a result of parallel, provably harmful portrayals of women and gender roles?

 

[Lime]

I understand that this is a niche game and it may be comparatively less impactful than large mainstream games with a lot of exposure, but that doesn't excuse it from contributing to an already exclusionary and marginalizing culture. It's fine that people want their sexually pandering games, but I don't think it's fine that people deny that there's a problem of sexism in the culture and medium and that this specific design doesn't help matters.

I'm basically tired of people failing to recognize there's a problem of representation of women in gaming and that this specific design is one more brick into the Temple of Male-Dominated Video Game Culture.

Nevertheless, I recognize that this isn't a clear-cut case of "sexism" and there are far worse instances in our medium and culture, but I still think people should be aware of how the products they love impact other people given the context of media in Western society, and specifically video games. That is the only reason why I choose to participate in this thread.

I want Lime to produce source for his claims.

I'm going to do this again since people seems to be denying the facts. Sorry for the people being annoyed of seeing this shit once again, but then you also know how tiring the whole discussion process can be for me.

(Mou & Peng, 2008, p. 929)

“The representation and portrayal of female and minority characters might have significant impact on the players, especially adolescent players who are in the developing stage to form their self-identity, self-image, gender role perception, as well as their expectation of and attitude toward the other gender and other racial groups.”

(Dunlop, 2007, p. 409):

“the individual forms identity of self and identity of others through the images one views. As the individual views images that resemble or do not resemble the self, she or he develops a perception of one’s position in society. […] Those who are at the bottom of the various power hierarchies will be kept in their places in part through relative invisibility”

Shaw (2009, p. 231):

“in essence, lack of media representation is a way of saying: “Your concerns/thoughts/lifestyle and so on are/is not important.”

Couldry (2000, p. 2):

"Cultural representation can be phrased as “power relations which affect who is represented and how, who speaks and who is silent.”

Galeotti (2002, p. 9):

“the feeling of shame, humiliation, and self-hatred experienced in connection with their differences, reinforced by the required public invisibility of their identity, prevents people from developing an adequate level of self-respect and self-esteem.”
Then we also have the many, many comments from the #1reasonwhy scenario which also highlighted that women feel marginalized or effected by negative portrayals of themselves in games. Even frequency within this very thread would prefer to have characters that aren't catering to heterosexual male audience.

Then we have the data itself of negative or lack of representation of women:

Dietz (1998) analyzed the content of portrayal of women through a selection of 33 Nintendo and Sega Genesis games, in which he found out that 41 percent of the analyzed games did not include any female characters. Beasley and Standley (2002) did a larger study on the appearance of female characters in digital games, in which they discovered that 13.74 percent of the 597 analyzed characters were female. Hanninger and Thompson (2004) also supported the notion of imbalance in gender representation in virtue of only their sample pool having 72 out 81 playable male characters versus only 42 playable female characters. Dill, Gentile, Richter (2005) found that 10 percent of the sampled digital game characters were female. Mou & Peng (2008) did a similar study in which both gender and race were analyzed across the 19 most popular games in 2008, where all leading characters were male with no leading female character.

Dietz’s research (1998) showed that only 15 percent portrayed women as what was defined as archetypical stereotypes heroes, 21 percent portrayed women as damsels in distress, and finally 28 percent where the female characters were depicted as sex objects through their physical characteristics or sexualized behavior. Moreover, the majority of these female characters wore physically revealing attire compared to their male counterparts, as well as 41 percent having large breasts. Downs & Smith (2010) did a similar analysis of 60 digital games, in which females were more often hypersexually depicted compared to male characters

Then we have a more broad overview of the problem with sexism in gaming culture.

Sexism remains prevalent throughout this media and social sphere (Jenkins & Cassell, 2008; King, Miles, & Kniska, 1991). The choice of female characters and actions within games leaves women with few realistic, non-sexualized options[/B] (Bryce & Rutter, 2003; Downs & Smith, 2009; Williams, Martins, Consalvo, & Ivory, 2009). The veil of feminine empowerment, employed by iconic characters like Lara Croft, falls under analysis that reveals their role as a “visual spectacle” for the masculine gaze (Kennedy, 2002). Women who work within the field remain a small minority (Abbiss, 2008; Jenson & de Castell, 2010) and report hostile experiences when working in the industry(Abbiss, 2008; Kerr, 2003). Often this hostility is felt through the gender roles in the dominant discourse (Eklund, 2011; Kerr, 2003). Researchers have noted that women within the public are pressured to avoid gendered discourse (Carr, 2005; Cockburn, 1992; Schofield, 1995), forcing some to avoid “outing” themselves as a female gendered player within their communities (Dill, Brown, & Collins, 2008; Hussain & Griffiths, 2008) and discouraging many others from opening up conversations about gender and sexism within the community for fear of reprisal or unwanted attention (Lewis & Griffiths, 2011; Norris, 2004).

In her study on geek identity and gender, T.L. Taylor (2012) notes that women remain “all too frequently marginalized,” thanks in part to “an imagined difference between men and women and gamers [which] remains a persistent myth” (p. 119). This distinction leads to a focus on women as casual gamers, found in social game communities such as Words with Friends or Farmville, and games that themselves are labeled as lesser by the rest of the gaming community (Taylor, 2012). In online “hardcore” gaming communities, which remain focused on genres of games that are traditionally associated with male players, public discourse is often dominantly male with little visible feminine influence. In Kendall's (2002) case study of BlueSky, a text-based online public, masculinity was preferred in part: “Because Western culture in general associates computer competence and interest with masculinity, femininity can come to be associated with lack of competence and an inability to fit into the dominant social norms” (p. 96). Kendall's (2002) analysis of the silencing of femininity stated,

This rhetoric and silencing of marginalized voices is part of a larger trend in the hardcore gaming public. The digital representations of women and other marginalized figures within the public are rarely rich or complex. This flaw plays out in two ways when the discourse is analyzed during and after polarizing events: the identification and enforcement of strict social roles and the manipulative use of technology. Women within the hardcore gaming public are given tightly bound roles to play and punished for stepping outside of them (Herring, 1999; Taylor, 2006). As other authors have shown, these roles include the woman as sex object, exemplified by booth babes and services that offer virtual “dates” with attractive girl gamers, and women as invisible, jokingly erased through memes like “There are no women on the Internet” or purposefully through self-sublimation of feminine identifiers (Herring, 1999; Taylor, 2006; Taylor, 2012).

The third role for women is that of the enemy. This article examines one incident within the gaming publics which clearly brought forth the framing of woman as enemy. Throughout the Dickwolves incident, women who spoke out were belittled, verbally assaulted, and harassed from many areas within the hardcore gaming public. From the explicit creation of teams to oppose female voices, the reduction or removal of safe spaces for women to participate in the dominant public, and deliberate reframing of discourse to avoid common ground, women, or feminine supporting others, were made to feel ostracized and unwelcome within the bounds of spaces owned by the dominant public.

And here are some stats in terms of offerings:

Notice the feeling of games not being for women:

And finally here's a longer quote why representations in media matter:

There are several reasons why the presence, absence or type of portrayal of social groups matter in a diverse society, ranging from social justice and power imbalance to models of effects and stereotype formation. Harwood and Anderson (2002) have suggested that representation on television is at heart a proxy for other social forces – that is, groups who appear more often in the media are more ‘vital’ and enjoy more status and power in daily life. Their useof ethnolinguistic vitality theory argues that the media work as a mirror for existing social forces as much as a causal agent of them. Therefore, measuring the imbalances that exist on the screen can tell us what imbalances exist in social identity formation, social power and policy formation in daily life. Moving past the media as a mirror for social power relations, several theories offer models and explanations for the reason why the consumers of media may be affected by them. Cultivation theory posits that the world of media exerts a broad, ‘gravitational’ pull on the viewer, systematically shaping their worldview to match that of the symbolic one on TV (Gerbner et al., 1994). This work has remained highly contested and controversial (Hirsch, 1981; Potter, 1994). Moreover, an experiment of cultivation in a video game (Williams, 2006b) has shown that the mechanism was precise and targeted rather than broad and spreading, supporting Shrum’s (2002) cognitive processing version of the theory. In other words, it was a specific set of symbols that yielded cultivation effects rather than a broader set of values or cultures. The theoretical mechanism in Shrum’s approach suggests that the presence (or absence) of a set of images in media causes a set of impressions in viewers (or players) through well-studied cognitive mechanisms. Price and Tewksbury (1997) reviewed this literature on cognitive associations, priming and framing and generated a parsimonious model for the impact of media imagery. Viewing (or in this case, playing) media creates objects in what Price and Tewksbury term the ‘knowledge store’, which they describe as ‘a network of constructs, including information about social objects and their attributes’ (1997: 186). The frequency with which social objects will be recalled and used depends in large part on chronic accessibility. At the simplest level, constructs are accessible when they are reinforced repeatedly and recently. Thus, imagery that is viewed or played repeatedly is more accessible when a person is attempting to recall information about that class of social objects. This is consistent with Shrum’s (2002) approach to cultivation, i.e. that a set of ideas about the real world are in large part based on the accessibility of constructs, which in turn are influenced by how often those constructs are viewed in media. In other words, social objects, like types of people, can be viewed or played in media and this action makes them more likely to be recalled later if they were more prevalent.

Theoretically, a media environment in which a particular type of person is highly represented will result in a viewer or player who is more likely to recall that type of person rather than a different type of person. The outcomes of such a system are very similar to the outcomes suggested by traditional cultivation, even while the causal mechanisms differ. Recently, work by Mastro and colleagues (2007) has made this connection with the mental models approach for the cultivation of Latinos on television. This work reveals that a medium’s general depiction of a group does have an impact on its users’ perceptions of that group, albeit moderated by their real-world experiences. If such a consistent pattern of representation on television can have effects as Mastro et al. (2007) show, a consistent pattern in other media may do as well. This is especially relevant as games begin to displace prior media as the dominant symbol sets for many Americans. For gaming, groups repeatedly seen or seen in particular roles, will begin to be more accessible to the viewer or player. In keeping with prior video game content analyses as well as the Harwood and Anderson television work, the key group variables here are gender, race and age. This is also relevant to the populations themselves, as representation can have identity and self-esteem effects on individuals from those groups (Comstock and Cobbey, 1979; McDermott and Greenberg, 1984). Tajfel’s social identity theory (1978) suggests that groups look for representations of themselves and then compare those representations with those of other groups. The presence of the group – including within games (Royse et al., 2007) – serves as a marker for members to know that they carry weight in society. Conversely, the absence of portrayals should lead to a feeling of relative unimportance and powerlessness (Mastro and Behm-Morawitz, 2005). These effects may be more or less likely if those populations play games at higher or lower rates. Thus, population figures can be used as an expected value baseline for comparison with the actual numbers of characters. In addition, real-world demographic player data can suggest which groups might be accessing games at higher rates than others.

 

[Remachinate]

Actually I think her character is defined by her sorcery. It's in the name.

And yet, which aspect do we have a 29 page thread about?

 

[Acquiescence]

Does anybody remember that episode of Father Ted where Ted and Dougal are ordered by Bishop Brennan to protest at the screening of a blasphemous film revolving around a revered religious figure, and in doing so inadvertently draw more attention and notoriety to the nudie flick than they would have if they had simply just ignored it?

Because I do.

 

[Risette]

Nevertheless, I recognize that this isn't a clear-cut case of "sexism" and there are far worse instances in our medium and culture, but I still think people should be aware of how the products they love impact other people given the context of media in Western society, and specifically video games. That is the only reason why I choose to participate in this thread.

So you're admitting to thread derailing?

Which aspect do we have a 29 page thread about?

Title says sorceress.

 

[nailbombxx]

I'm pretty sure that got plenty of flack.

At least this game deserves attention and publicity, regardless if it is positive or negative.

 

[partyphone]

Sisyphus had a less exhausting task than explaining sexism to the average GAF member. At least his boulder wasn't privileged.

 

[Neuromancer]

Does anybody remember that episode of Father Ted where Ted and Dougal are ordered by Bishop Brennan to protest at the screening of a blasphemous film revolving around a revered religious figure, and in doing so inadvertently draw more attention and notoriety to the nudie flick than they would have if they had simply just ignored it?

Because I do.

???

Never seen the show but that image always cracks me up.

Well thanks to Jason's hard hitting reporting on the subject I am now aware of this game and interested in buying it.

 

[michaelius]

So ? I still haven't heard any argument why needs of every group need to be fullfilled by the same game ?

 

[Delusibeta]

Actually, since some people become so personally offended and defensive whenever someone use the descriptor 'sexist' of an object,

The problem is that "sexist" is often followed by "and it is actively harmful" (implication: it would be better if it didn't exist).

 

[SolidSnakex]

Well thanks to Jason's hard hitting reporting on the subject I am now aware of this game and interested in buying it.

I think that this will be the main result of these articles. It's not really going to turn anyone off from buying it. It's going to give a niche game more attention than it ever would've received. Which is a good thing. The more popular this is the better chance we have of seeing a bigger revival of beat 'em ups. You hear that Sega? Koshiro?

 

[Lime]

What cultural context? That because certain content in certain games exist that they serve to speak for the entirety of the content in the entire industry? That is a ridiculous notion.

Video games have a problem of being a white heterosexual male dominated medium, both in its workforce and in its virtual representations of demographics. That is the "cultural context" I am referring to. This is a general problem for the mainstream industry and culture.

So you're admitting to thread derailing?

haha. No, all my posts are on point and relevant. My motivation for reading this thread is mostly because of the dumb design and I recognize there are bigger fish to fry. My participation is merely about correcting people's misguided and false assumptions about how the world works.

 

[Remachinate]

Title says sorceress.

And Cat's Cradle is about string games.

 

[djplaeskool]

I'm going to do this again since people seems to be denying the facts. Sorry for the people being annoyed of seeing this shit once again, but then you also know how tiring the whole discussion process can be for me.

I feel like there are separate arguments being waged in this thread, and everything is being tossed in an incomprehensible black box.

Does GAF have some kind of #1ReasonWhy Megathread?
I feel like a lot of cogent discussion is going to be lost in tangentially related junk.

Not saying what you've presented isn't important, however I don't think it's going to help in the context of this thread.

 

[DarkKyo]

I'm going to do this again since people seems to be denying the facts.

Your argument would be worthwhile if every female character in Dragon's Crown was the same physical archetype as the Sorceress.

Your argument would also be worthwhile if every man who liked the Sorceress or Dragon's Crown likes her/it for her breasts.

If you're only saying that this is just one more damaging thing for women in media then not only are you picking the wrong game due to it being niche, you're also picking the wrong game because it doesn't follow the stereotypes you're describing enough. You seem to be engaging in some sort of reverse-racism type logic. You don't want womens' apparently(according to you) fragile psyches to be affected by seeing men enjoy large-breasted icons in media but what you actually seem to be saying is you want to exclude those types of women from media completely, saying they can't be prominent or strong characters if they have large breasts.

 

[JordanN]

I'm basically tired of people failing to recognize there's a problem of representation of women in gaming and that this specific design is one more brick into the Temple of Male-Dominated Video Game Culture.

Wouldn't the best response be to start up new studios? How about that?

If there's an actual market for people wanting what they think is their ideal portrayal of women, why not exploit it?

I think this is the best solution. Carve out a niche so everyone is happy.

 

[Pimpbaa]

I am concerned that one sexualized woman offends people more than something like Atelier Totori Plus.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Video games have a problem of being a white heterosexual male dominated medium, both in its workforce and in its virtual representations of demographics. That is the "cultural context" I am referring to. This is a general problem for the mainstream industry and culture.

You do realize the game that this very thread is about is being marketed more toward Japanese people living in Japan than anyone overseas, right?

haha. No, all my posts are on point and relevant. My motivation for reading this thread is mostly because of the dumb design and I recognize there are bigger fish to fry. My participation is merely about correcting people's misguided and false assumptions about how the world works.

Quite the high horse you are on there.

 

[Lime]

Sisyphus had a less exhausting task than explaining sexism to the average GAF member. At least his boulder wasn't privileged.

I think it isn't even about the boulder having privilege. It's about people not being open toward other people's opinions and feelings by simply refusing to be introspective about one's ingrained ideas. Some people simply lack the capability to assess their own cultural assumptions when presented with other social groups' feelings of marginalization.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

While I understand Schreier's argument and morally agree with him, I don't see why it should be up to anyone to feel that a game creator's vision (speaking currently of just visuals, not so much how a character is written) has to be restricted or censored in any way. I understand wanting it to be a certain way, but to damn a game for what it IS is another story and try to hold it to a standard that doesn't organically exist is silly. It's one thing to see a film and say "yeah it was tits ahoy, it's one of THOSE types of movies" instead of "yeah it was tits ahoy, movies need to be held to a higher standard and not be like this"

 

[DarkKyo]

Lime, are you or are you not saying that large breasted women can't be strong people?

I would probably agree with your whole assertion if the sorceress was a tool or a helpless girl, but she is not.

 

[radios shipping overview]

I am concerned that one sexualized woman offends people more than something like Atelier Totori Plus.

We have plenty of admission in this thread that this game is hardly the worst offender out there, and may not even be all that sexist. But it's this week's Teachable Moment, so we're all hanging out watching people stand on their soapboxes until the next offensive thing comes along.

 

[Weltall Zero]

"Censorship is terrible!

...by the way, stop saying outloud that you don't like something and that it would be better if it was rethought, that isn't allowed."

He didn't say that "censorship was terrible". In fact, he stated the exact opposite (my emphasis):

You're advocating that Dragon's Crown be censored, and it's certainly your prerogative to do so, but pretending that you aren't is nothing short of ridiculous when you write multiple paragraphs extolling the importance of limiting the range of acceptable expression within the medium of video games in service to a greater -- albeit ill-defined -- goal. Your disclaimer doesn't change this one iota.

If you are sincere in your statement that you do not advocate self-censorship then I think you would do well to ask yourself how it came to be that you are doing precisely that.

What he criticised (pretty tamely: the word used was "ridiculous", not inherently harmful) was hypocrisy, i.e. having your words and your actions (even when your actions are more words) contradict each other. I personally think that's worthy of criticism, but if it's not, well, we can all pack up and lock the thread because there's no grounds for any discussion.

I would also like to add that this particular horse was beaten to death, resurrected and beaten back to a fine dust by 2011. Neither of you is going to go anywhere, reach any consensus or convince anyone else of anything, because every single element in this discussion is 100% subjective, even if you believe and/or would wish them not to be. By far the most sensible post I've read to date is precisely ixix's.

Feel free to keep the discussion up (it's certainly much more thoughtful here than in GameFAQs, obviously, even if the net result is the same), as long as you understand that nothing will come of it.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

I am concerned that one sexualized woman offends people more than something like Atelier Totori Plus.

You leave Atelier out of this. Its innocence will be preserved.

 

[SolidSnakex]

We have plenty of admission in this thread that this game is hardly the worst offender out there, and may not even be all that sexist. But it's this week's Teachable Moment, so we're all hanging out watching people stand on their soapboxes until the next offensive thing comes along.

I'm actually surprised that the announcement of Gigolo Mode in Killer is Dead came and went without much mention in the press.

 

[Uthred]

I love how these threads always start with people interested in the game, then the curious appear and the ball gets rolling then when it reaches a certain level of posts/momentum we see the same people who pop up in every thread on the subject (on both sides) posting more or less (or often literally) identical posts. Its like some kind of bizarre ritual.

 

[Odrion]

We have plenty of admission in this thread that this game is hardly the worst offender out there, and may not even be all that sexist. But it's this week's Teachable Moment, so we're all hanging out watching people stand on their soapboxes until the next offensive thing comes along.

Well it's either this or people return to talking about which sorcerer futa doujin is their favorite so eeeeeh.

 

[Remachinate]

I am concerned that one sexualized woman offends people more than something like Atelier Totori Plus.

I've never even heard of that game, but those Sorceress boobs are all up in everyone's face.

While I understand Schreier's argument and morally agree with him, I don't see why it should be up to anyone to feel that a game creator's vision (speaking currently of just visuals, not so much how a character is written) has to be restricted or censored in any way. I understand wanting it to be a certain way, but to damn a game for what it IS is another story and try to hold it to a standard that doesn't organically exist is silly. It's one thing to see a film and say "yeah it was tits ahoy, it's one of THOSE types of movies" instead of "yeah it was tits ahoy, movies need to be held to a higher standard and not be like this"

Putting aside the fact that even "those types of movies" are also problematic and perpetuate a sexist culture, games have this perception problem among the larger society where it seems like they're *all* one of "those types" of games. It makes me for one demand games seem so exclusionary.

 

[Lime]

I feel like there are separate arguments being waged in this thread, and everything is being tossed in an incomprehensible black box.

Don't worry, a person asked for explanation for why media representation matters, specifically in the context of video games.

Your argument would be worthwhile if every female character in Dragon's Crown was the same physical archetype as the Sorceress.

My argument is worthwhile since VIDEO GAMES have a strong tendency to sexually objectify its female characters.

Your argument would also be worthwhile if every man who liked the Sorceress or Dragon's Crown likes her/it for her breasts.

I don't care what men like. I care about what the people being represented feel like.

If you're only saying that this is just one more damaging thing for women in media then not only are you picking the wrong game due to it being niche, you're also picking the wrong game because it doesn't follow the stereotypes you're describing enough. You seem to be engaging in some sort of reverse-racism type logic. You don't want womens' apparently(according to you) fragile psyches to be affected by seeing men enjoy large-breasted icons in media but what you actually seem to be saying is you want to exclude those types of women from media completely, saying they can't be prominent or strong characters if they have large breasts.

I don't think you understand the argument.

Wouldn't the best response be to start up new studios? How about that?

How has the starting up of a new studio has anything to do with pointing out that there's a minority problem in video games.

You do realize the game that this very thread is about is being marketed more toward Japanese people living in Japan than anyone overseas, right?

Western markets are still exposed to it, and the design is still a symptom of a larger problem. Its emphasis on Asian consumers is irrelevant to the criticism of it.

 

[spandexmonkey]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=49966935&postcount=5774

Their conclusion was cautious and not conclusive.  They also didn't do a similar study on men to see if playing sexualized male characters would have an impact on their self-esteem. And the effect was short term.

In fact according to this study Self-esteem of computer games players in adolescence
Both men and women experience a decline in self esteem after playing video games.

Taking it a bit further back
Facial attractiveness and self-esteem in adolescence.

I would find it highly unlikely that men are immune to this effect as well.  Perhaps what this is really telling us is sexualized characters (male and female) should not be available to children?  Would be an interesting study.

Still not a good reason to not have characters like her for audiences who want it. Its just not for everyone.

 

[Risette]

haha. No, all my posts are on point and relevant. My motivation for reading this thread is mostly because of the dumb design and I recognize there are bigger fish to fry. My participation is merely about correcting people's misguided and false assumptions about how the world works.

So you recognize that this game is not very exemplary of the problem, but you use the thread about said game to talk about that problem anyways?

Western markets are still exposed to it, and the design is still a symptom of a larger problem. Its emphasis on Asian consumers is irrelevant to the criticism of it.

Would there be an issue, if say, the Western release was cancelled? With the game remaining the exact same, of course.

 

[hayguyz]

wow hahaha. you can tell this was designed by Japanese herbivore man

 

[djplaeskool]

Well it's either this or people return to talking about which sorcerer futa doujin is their favorite so eeeeeh.

lol.
So, it's either aggressive discussions of women's roles in gaming...or porn.
thisisneogaf.gif

Don't worry, a person asked for explanation for why media representation matters, specifically in the context of video games.

Ahh. Missed that. Interesting stuff you posted, btw.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Putting aside the fact that even "those types of movies" are also problematic and perpetuate a sexist culture, games have this perception problem among the larger society where it seems like they're *all* one of "those types" of games. It makes me for one demand games seem so exclusionary.

Sure, those types of movies ARE problematic and DO perpetuate a sexist culture, but what is the correct response to it? To not give it your money, to not support it, and make frowns at people who do. I guess it's all working out alright then, but I definitely don't want to see this sort of thought removed or taken away or some unusual standard being held here that isn't held elsewhere in other forms of media. I hear ya.

 

[DarkKyo]

Western markets are still exposed to it, and the design is still a symptom of a larger problem. Its emphasis on Asian consumers is irrelevant to the criticism of it.

Yes, human nature is a big problem, I suppose.

Your point that its origin in Asia is irrelevant just speaks to that.

 

[Pimpbaa]

We have plenty of admission in this thread that this game is hardly the worst offender out there, and may not even be all that sexist. But it's this week's Teachable Moment, so we're all hanging out watching people stand on their soapboxes until the next offensive thing comes along.

I never see anywhere near as many people offended in threads about games like Atelier Totori.

 

[SolidSnakex]

wow hahaha. you can tell this was designed by Japanese herbivore man

Except Kamitani is married.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Western markets are still exposed to it, and the design is still a symptom of a larger problem. Its emphasis on Asian consumers is irrelevant to the criticism of it.

Wait... Just so we're all clear on it, what is the larger problem you're speaking of?

 

[JordanN]

How has the starting up of a new studio has anything to do with pointing out that there's a minority problem in video games.

It will lessen it.

For every person who runs away from Dragon's Crown for being "exclusionary", there will be a game that does the opposite (i.e, draws them in).

Although I'm not sure if you can actually confront the minority problem. If these people are niche to begin with and there is no growth when the market does tend to them, I'm not sure if asking for every other video game to change will have any effect.

Edit: Let alone, that wouldn't be fair to studios.

 

[Warm Machine]

Video games have a problem of being a white heterosexual male dominated medium, both in its workforce and in its virtual representations of demographics. That is the "cultural context" I am referring to. This is a general problem for the mainstream industry and culture.

I don't know where the race angle comes from because I know for a fact that gaming is a multiracial, global hobby at least in the 1st and 2nd world. I'll agree that lead characters are more often than not white males. I'd love to see a racial breakdown of the players of Call of Duty, Halo, Madden, Fifa, and all. Finding that data is probably nearly impossible though unless MS keeps tabs and data mines Avatar editor skin colour choices and even then I doubt that is reliable due to customization.

I also agree that the majority of the workforce in North American game companies primarily consists of white males. In Vancouver, a massive portion is Canadian Chinese. Race of the game team hardly bears consideration anyway as Japanese game companies often crank out white male protagonist games.

I also know from experience that there is a small but dedicated female staff on every game team I've worked on. I remember that when I worked at one company we hired 100% of the female applicants in disciplines from art to programming for a stretch of about 4 years, simply because we didn't get many female applicants and the qualifications were a match for what was needed.

Hopefully as time progresses more women enter into the field and make a larger mark. Near every female coworker I've had the pleasure of working with has been excellent and dedicated to their job.