Even if it were slightly more powerful, Nintendo underestimated that it's actually EA and Activision's businessmodel to create a swarm of AAAA games to push out the other competition, because the smaller devs can't compete on that scale. A bit like Nintendo themselves did with gameplay. If everyone can make similar looking games, they don't want to be on that system because they lose their unique competitive edge. I'm not sure if the indie route was intentional, I am quite sure that it is now Nintendo's only option.
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Iwata on third parties, hundreds of inquiries since GDC about Nintendo Web Framework
- Thread starter Hobby
- Start date
obviously halo and gears didn't do the ps3 any favors. the ps3's luck in general started turning around with the ps3 slim and the price drop. i don't think sony themselves built a fanbase for those games as much as they just built a fanbase that wanted to buy some games. killzone and resistance did not do halo or gears of wars numbers, and neither did call of duty or madden on ps3 versus the 360.
and cod2 did okay at launch for the 360, but it didn't do amazing. it was kinda like red steel where hey, it did well, but it wasn't anything unusual. call of duty 3 did better, but it still wasn't crazytown bananapants. halo 3 sold 3.3m in one month and then cod4 did particularly well.
I'm pretty sure COD MW2 and later COD games on PS3 only would actually be very competitive sales-wise (or better) vs Halo Reach/4.
yeah but the point was that microsoft fostered the fanbase that would allow something like call of duty to take off. software success of the ps3 was due to perseverance more than anything. although i think that having uncharted, god of war, and mgs4 on the console helped sales with other single-player games like arkham asylum.
they should have bought naughty dog and quantic dream and called them naughty dream and their one goal would be to create the worst video game of all-time.
I agree with the expanding part. But not the dudebro part. The 14 year old COD kids will never buy a "kiddy" Nintendo console, because it doesn't make them look cool to their 12 year old friends.
Nintendo should focus on young kids and adults. But yeah Nintendo should have expanded greatly, because the game output is pathetic for Wii U.
darkistheway
Member
I don't necessarily disagree with you but I do think Nintendo's historical position with consumers is 'impossible' to change. Some people feel like if Nintendo just went par with Microsoft and Sony techwise then it would magically fix things for Nintendo. I just don't know. The closest they came was the Gamecube; it didn't work out (for reasons other than power, admittedly).
'Core' games do sell on Nintendo consoles - COD did well on the Wii, considering the technical inferiority as did RE4 on the Gamecube. I would argue though that those sales are from 'Nintendo' gamers rather than the sort of gamers who pick up like games on the other consoles.
And everyone they hire would ultimately quit and go work for studios that are about pushing graphics. Western developers don't really mix well with Nintendo's philosophies.
And that's why I think it should be Iwata's #1 priority. If he can't do it, then the Gamecube part 2 is coming.
There's no way a studio named naughty dream could create anything but the greatest videogame of all time.
shinra-bansho
Member
I know, I was just being facetious.
Anyway, I don't know if I agree that Sony didn't build an audience for "those games" and simply just "some games" in that they did build an audience for "some games like those games." If that makes any sense.
Looking back, COD seemed to blow up around the time of the PS3 Slim on both the PS3 and 360.
Yeah, because you can only work on the best graffix. Come on now. Only a small part of videogame creation is boring technical work. The rest is creative and the Wii U doesn't limit people in being creative. I think people quitting their job (who does that over something like you're saying anyway?!) is crazy talk.
It seems the Wii U is in part designed to try to get the "Dudebro" gamer on-board. The problem is Nintendo is not comfortable going after that specific demographic because it also becomes a detriment to selling to kids and soccer moms.
This is why the Wii U was a bad idea from the start. Nintendo tried to go after Everyone + Dudebros, when the reality is Dudebros or everyone else.
PdotMichael
Banned
Isn't it way too late for that?
A full-budget title will take 2+ years, so if the support (or the developers are not even interested in making games) is now lackluster it will stay lackluster for the next two years.
A full-budget title will take 2+ years, so if the support (or the developers are not even interested in making games) is now lackluster it will stay lackluster for the next two years.
Yes I agree. The lack of direction is one of the many weaknesses of the Wii U.
shinra-bansho
Member
Microsoft seem to be doing okay at it with Kinect
Sony did too, to an extent, with the PS2.
We'll be lucky to be playing that late 2014.....
This is funny because Naughty Dog made one of the worst games I ever played (Jak 2).
Majmun
Member
They also made the best kart game and the best TPS I have ever player.
Some people seem to bash ND because of JakII, while ignoring their other output.
darkistheway
Member
Tons of people left Retro. I was being a bit sarcastic; my main point is that 'creating studios' is a slippery slope because you have no way to know if that studio will a) make a good return on investment and b) creative people may not adjust to Nintendo's policies, which are very Japanese in nature.
I think it's even worse for them than that. Asynchronous gaming seems very much to be Miyamoto's brainchild. He championed it before with the GBA link cable but that never really took off. Miyamoto probably convinced them the high price of admission made it a niche product, but that a console built around it would be a huge hit.
Their goose that laid the golden eggs for over two decades has started to lose it the last couple of years, culminating in the real stinker that was Wii U. In any company they'd remove someone like him, but over the last decade they turned him into Mr Nintendo to such an extent that they would rather sacrifice the CEO than their posterboy. That would however accomplish nothing. It's the top of Nintendo that's failing, but letting the young ones take over is a really slow and painful process for a Japanese company. Actually, it's quite unheard of.
It seems in actuality the Kinect also proved a boon to Sony. Sony "relaunched" the PS3 with the slim, and Microsoft launched the Kinect at the Wii crowd. With the PS4 announcement aimed at core gamers (Dudebros among them), not a lot of love is shown on enthusiast forums towards Microsoft's "all inclusive" strategy. MS also had those early years where they aimed straight at the core gamer with excellent execution and Sony was fumbling with inferior ports and services.
I thought people hated Naughty fails Uncharted 3 for not being as good as Uncharted 2?
I don't think it's a good move to try and make third parties regret not supporting Wii U. It takes too long for one thing and by the time they realise they should have supported Wii U they either do cash grab casual shit or the gen is over. Nintendo should have paid for ports of the big games to get them there say and date. The lack of support is almost entirely Nintendo's doing so they need to solve it. Of course this is secondary to actually selling enough units.
I also find it frustrating that he continually seems to be surprise or annoyed that people think its underpowered. It would have been obvious when they nailed down the tech that Sony and MS would trump it considerably. He should have ensured devs had tools and docs to make the most of it and had a showcase game to show off its power compared to 360/PS3.
I also find it frustrating that he continually seems to be surprise or annoyed that people think its underpowered. It would have been obvious when they nailed down the tech that Sony and MS would trump it considerably. He should have ensured devs had tools and docs to make the most of it and had a showcase game to show off its power compared to 360/PS3.
This is where the gamepad is supposed to factor in.
And even then Sony could imitate, although much like the Move it is not a standard integral feature of the console.
You need to play more PS3 man, Journey, Flower, LittleBigPlanet are just a handfull of -art- variety that's available on the PS3, and I think they're the cornerstone of Sony's attitude towards the PS4 being a "blank canvas for developers".
it might seem irrational to base an entire company's more recent output on the quality of a ten year-old game, but you have to understand: jak ii is really terrible.
I don't know if they actually care. I don't see how it was a surprise to them given the launch schedules of games that they must have known about months before the console launch. Maybe they got worried early 2012 as they realised third pArties were ignoring them and not much was coming so they probably made there decision to hold their own games back and just ride it out until E3. It's probably currently going to plan. Now all those games are post FYE 13 and profit goes towards next year to hit Iwata's goal. After all who is suffering but the fans who bought early and we are the onesies likely to put up with it. So long as we get some old VC games or a Zelda HD remake all will be forgiven.
SniperHunter
Banned
Nintendo seems like an arrogant company to me. They should have gone to the third parties and asked them, which engine they would support for the next 5 years, inquired about the minimum required specs to run those engines and designed a system around that.
Nintendo lives in their own bubble, they obviously didn't approach the third parties or major engine providers like Epic. They just developed a system on their own internal requirements and now they will pay the price.
To regain Western dev support in the future, Nintendo needs will have to approach developers and design a system around their needs....
Wi U was designed by Nintendo for Nintendo.....only a few devs will support it once PS4 and Xbox Durango hit
Nintendo lives in their own bubble, they obviously didn't approach the third parties or major engine providers like Epic. They just developed a system on their own internal requirements and now they will pay the price.
To regain Western dev support in the future, Nintendo needs will have to approach developers and design a system around their needs....
Wi U was designed by Nintendo for Nintendo.....only a few devs will support it once PS4 and Xbox Durango hit
Majmun
Member
I liked both ND's Jak II and QD's Heavy Rain. And I'm sure many did too. But I'm also sure that many people disliked those games. That's fine.
Different taste - opinions etc. So let's just agree to disagree.
darkistheway
Member
Maybe they did go the devs, ask those questions and then decided that being one of three $500 consoles wasn't a financially viable option for them.
Nintendo isn't arrogant so much as they are very financially conservative.
mysteriousmage09
Member
Nintendo may be able to get "their" games the way they want with Mario, Zelda, etc., but do you seriously think devs like EA, Capcom, Square-Enix, and Epic are going to get the results "they" want with the system while using their new game engines that they have put lots of money and working hours into making?
Not even close. Their engines wont run for shit on the Wii U hardware and they won't waste their time gutting the life out of their games to get them to run properly on hardware that is just above the ancient console hardware that is now being replaced. 3rd parties aren't wrong or "misunderstanding" about the Wii U being weak as shit, it is. It is, just like the Wii, the one system that sticks out like a sore thumb and when they are working on game for PS4 and Durango and, for example, go from 8GB of GDDR5 Ram / 8GB DDR3 Ram, and then look at the Wii U's 2GB DDR3 Ram with 1GB available for the actual games, (who knows what will be fully available for PS4/Durango but the gap is still the size of a black hole) they are going to look at the Wii U hardware and facepalm.
There's already been several 3rd party games that already have skipped or are skipping the Wii U and that's not even taking the hardware portion into it. Once the PS4 and Durango are out and the new engines from these devs take over, the Wii U situation will flat out be worse due to the hardware gap, and once again, make it a Nintendo exclusive box. At the end of the day, the hardware is weak by today's standards no matter how people try to spin it and the difference in hardware will be seen very soon. Face it, Nintendo severely underestimated the hardware that would be powering Sony and MS' new consoles and now it's backpedaling time. Sales are bad, marketing is bad, hardware is behind, and it's all a misunderstanding apparently. It's not Nintendo's fault, it's everyone else's.
Tons of developers left big studios to focus on smartphone and small yet often ambitious PC games in recent years. I read the "developers want powerful hardware" bullshit on GAF all the time, but that's evidently not the case. What they actually want is creative freedom, and that's something they probably don't get working for Nintendo (unless they're doing eShop stuff), but definitely won't get working on AAAA blockbusters.
PdotMichael
Banned
But a $300-350 machine with the graphical output of a PS3/360 was a smart decision? The entire Wii U console is stupid and conceptless.
Nintendo is intentionally capping their tech in an effort to cap their development expenses. This worked for the Wii and Nintendo thought it would at least work for the Wii U. The problem with HD development is that it just takes that much more effort, regardless of tech. I want to say Nintendo thought their dev costs and production time would come in line with the Wii, but reaching PS3/360 fidelity is just the next tier of costs. I'm wondering if Iwata is kicking himself over not going with more powerful console that was also affordable because the level of work and learning curve is the same for HD development regardless of tech.
darkistheway
Member
As I already said, I was being a bit sarcastic with that first part.
Indeed, Microsoft have experienced backlash from the dudebro segment for Kinect and their all-inclusiveness as seen by how those things are currently treated on this very board. It's just that the focus came later in the 360's life. As far as the PS2 goes, that was before the dudebro market had really formed. Sure there were dudebro games, but they hadn't become the primary force in the market yet with a few notable exceptions like GTA and Halo.
It could very well be argued that what the dudebros want out of video games are completely against what everyone else wants out of video games.
What kind of backlash are we talking about. As far as I know, it's not like sales of games are swinging in favour to PS3 or something?
shinra-bansho
Member
I don't think the people who buy annual Madden and FIFA, pick up Halo and Gears when they come out, etc. really care that there's also this Kinect thing some people buy the system for to flail around in front of.
15-35 heterosexual middle-class males have always been the dominant force in the market - or at least since the PS1 era when gaming went "mainstream"; they were simply buying different games like Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts before people decided to start calling them "dudebro." And then they were supplanted by the "casual," the everyone else, which had previously been an afterthought, as the dominant market force driving the success of the Wii and the NDS.
gingerbeardman
Member
I'm one of the enquiries.
As a self-proclaimed "dudebro" myself I agree with you. That being said, dudebros aren't as close-minded as many would think. I think the main core gamer demographic (14-35 year old males, many of which GAF would consider Dudebro, and the core gamer females) are at odds with what everyone else who is not them want from video games. Nintendo went after "everyone else" with the Wii, yet strangely tried to get an audience they shunned by creating the Wii U.
With the Wii U seemingly being a half-assed product aimed at casuals and core, Iwata saying they'll have "revenge" on the third parties who shunned the Wii U baffles me.
Better tech = more expensive console. Nintendos only chance of being successful with a console is being the kid friendly cheaper alternative. The only downside of this is, you wont get 3rd party ports of ps720 games. But this is something Nintendo should have seen coming, thats why they should have expanded like crazy 3-4 years ago.
Wii U might be slightly more powerful in some areas.
But only in the same sense that Wii was more powerful than the PS2.
That kind of power gap becomes irrelevant when actual next-gen hardware gets released.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vZjOYca7lMM#t=1427s
vs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV9akQJ_D7M
The Xbox 1 version of Kameo looked indeed pretty but the differences are quite noticeable!
Refreshment.01
Member
But can you quantify custom sauce?
I disagree with this. As I said, if Nintendo goes after the core gamer, it'll be at the expense of the other demographics Nintendo cares about. EA & Rockstar aim at core gamers, why would they support a system aimed at everyone else but the people they're trying to sell to? This is Nintendo's conundrum, and I think they chose their answer poorly.
darkistheway
Member
I misread regret as revenge for some reason, my mistake. I don't think 3rd parties will regret not supporting the Wii U since their audience isn't on it.
Refreshment.01
Member
Yes, yes but... NO!
darkistheway
Member
I think Iwata's pointing more towards the success of Ubisoft and Activision in developing titles that appeal to Nintendo's market. Third parties can find success on Nintendo consoles despite the myth that only Nintendo first party games sell.
dragonbane
Member
Goddamn son. That would be like the best gamer ever, especially with a script by David Cage.