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[User 100115]

And this is why I support where NRA is heading. Eventually it will hit the tipping point and many more will die. Perhaps their deaths will galvanize the need for change.

A most welcome enema.

I doubt any amount of deaths will do anything at this point. Anytime something like Sandy Hook or Aurora happens, people immediately start spouting 'Now is not the time to discuss guns!' or 'Well, now they are going to try and take our guns!'

Regarding your suggestion of basic regulation, I just recently joined a rifle and pistol club in the UK. Before I could join, the police did a background check on me. Now I'm a provisional member for 6 months, and if I go for a minimum of 15 sessions in those six months, and demonstrate a list of competencies regarding proper weapons handling and safety which are each signed off by the club members, I'll be considered for full membership. If I am made a full member THEN I can apply for a Firearms Certificate (another police check here). Then if I can prove that I own a gun safe conforming to a British Standard (essentially that it's built into a wall), then I can buy a gun.

I still feel that I'm "free" to own a gun if I want one, and that all of the above simply represents reasonable precautions for letting someone buy a dangerous piece of equipment.

See that would be perfect. But nope.

 

[Axiology]

And this is why I support where NRA is heading. Eventually it will hit the tipping point and many more will die. Perhaps their deaths will galvanize the need for change.

A most welcome enema.

Unfortunately, as horrible as it seems the way things are going it's probably the only way anything would get achieved regarding gun control. We didn't do shit when 20 children got slaughtered, after all.

Not a pleasant scenario, though.

 

[Kevitivity]

As someone who is very pro-civil rights, I support the NRA (as I do the ACLU).

 

[Seanspeed]

Regarding your suggestion of basic regulation, I just recently joined a rifle and pistol club in the UK. Before I could join, the police did a background check on me. Now I'm a provisional member for 6 months, and if I go for a minimum of 15 sessions in those six months, and demonstrate a list of competencies regarding proper weapons handling and safety which are each signed off by the club members, I'll be considered for full membership. If I am made a full member THEN I can apply for a Firearms Certificate (another police check here). Then if I can prove that I own a gun safe conforming to a British Standard (essentially that it's built into a wall), then I can buy a gun.

I still feel that I'm "free" to own a gun if I want one, and that all of the above simply represents reasonable precautions for letting someone buy a dangerous piece of equipment.

This is the way it should be.

 

[Rayis]

What scares me the most is that this happened in the city I live in, seriously, I fear socializing with people like this so I have to be very selective with the people I interact with, anyway, I always found the fetishizing of guns by NRA and gun nuts incredibly odd and disturbing. The amount of paranoia and fear of the government supposedly taking their guns is out of control. Who is it that they're fighting against? Might as well revolt now if they're so paranoid about it.

 

[Xdrive05]

What bothers me more than anything else is the all-or-nothing position of the *official organization* of the gun lobby, instead of a compromising advocacy for gun ownership.

It's the slippery slope fallacy in action. My father-in-law thinks that background checks in and of themselves are a good idea, but he absolutely will NOT support them because "first it's a background check, then it's a government-approved mental evaluation, finally they're coming for your guns no matter what!!!"

The thing they always fail to address is the fact that the slippery slope, if it's true at all, slopes down in BOTH directions.

 

[Deadbeat]

Its funny how the US has a proper gun law system in place for automatic weapons, which has worked. Yet they dont want to apply it to everything else.

 

[Eidan]

best t-shirt. More of people like him and gov can cut police spendings. Brave american!

What is he going to do if he or someone he cares about is having a heart attack? Shoot it?

 

[Dark_AnNiaLatOr]

The most annoying thing, is that these turds try to act tough by having shirts and signs that are so foolish and childish sounding.

 

[equippedwithtowel]

I get accused of being something I'm not and I'm supposed to be all chill about it - I've expressed my views SEVERAL times and they have been ignored for the sake of piss-poor argument because some people would rather hear themselves speak instead of actually listening to what someone says and backing down.

Look, I like good conversation. To me - stoking each other isn't a conversation, debate is. We can all join hands together and sing songs around a fire but that won't move anything forward.

I make a comment extrapolating on another users comment and now all of a sudden - I'm the asshole and the ORIGINAL poster of that point of view is forgotten? Even though I don't hold the same view?

This is adult discussion? This is how it works according to you folks? This is how you act in everyday life?

"HERP DERP HE MADE A COMMENT ABOUT GUNS HES A RIGHT WINGER EXTREMEST JACKHOLE GUN LOVING MANIAC! GIT EM GAF!"

Yah no - that's not how it works, kids.

This is you right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1leDAwjtto

 

[The_Hitcher89]

Times like this make me glad I'm Canadian.

Its perhaps the biggest cultural difference between the UK and USA, along with healthcare. Its just utterly bizarre to most of us Brits I think.

 

[akira28]

That kind of rhetoric is dangerous as fuck.

"Stand up for America."

Against who asshole?

yankees.

or as Faulkner put it, "The bastards, the bastards."

 

[KingK]

I do not know how it is in the US but in Europe the term "culture war" is often used by extreme nationalists and racists as a way to bypass the straight out racist terms.

Maybe the NRA have been inspired by the Golden Dawn or the English Defence League

Sounds about right. I would guess a pretty large majority of the people at this convention are racist nationalists. Especially with the reference to the Civil War as the "War of Northern Agression."

 

[chaostrophy]

They're doing a great job promoting gun ownership: reading the OP makes me want to go out and buy a gun just to help make sure those nutjobs aren't the only people in the country to have them. Then if the government ever takes their guns away, I'll happily turn mine in.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Its perhaps the biggest cultural difference between the UK and USA, along with healthcare. Its just utterly bizarre to most of us Brits I think.

Oh absolutely. Despite joining a gun club, I've got no interest in actually owning a gun. I was just laying out what regulations we have over here if someone did. The membership fee covers the use of the club's guns, which I'm sure are much better maintained than I could be arsed to do myself, and I just have to pay for ammo (plus I rent my flat, and I don't think the landlord would be very pleased if I installed a safe into one of the walls...)

 

[Delusibeta]

ITT: spot the deluded fools that think they could win a rebellion against the army with more money than the armies of the rest of the world put together.

 

[Hale-XF11]

Such a fucking persecution complex.

I don't give a fuck about gun owners. I just hate killed children. Is that so hard to understand? Stop thinking about yourself for a change and try to think of ways for their to be less innocent people killed with guns.

Some people, particularly some Republican conservative types, have a complete and total lack of empathy for other people. They are physically incapable of it.

 

[The_Hitcher89]

Oh absolutely. Despite joining a gun club, I've got no interest in actually owning a gun. I was just laying out what regulations we have over here if someone did. The membership fee covers the use of the club's guns, which I'm sure are much better maintained than I could be arsed to do myself, and I just have to pay for ammo (plus I rent my flat, and I don't think the landlord would be very pleased if I installed a safe into one of the walls...)

I wasn't targetting you btw, I hadn't read through the thread

I have no problem or questions of anyone who just likes the feel of a gun, I can see the attraction. The obsession with owning one and having as few restrictions as possible around it though, I find completely baffling.

 

[Pineconn]

Some people, particularly some Republican conservative types, have a complete and total lack of empathy for other people. They are physically incapable of it.

Yes, conservative Republicans are cold-blooded assholes who don't care when people die. You keep telling yourself that.

 

[Link]

Yes, conservative Republicans are cold-blooded assholes who don't care when people die. You keep telling yourself that.

We don't have to; they keep telling us themselves.

 

[Hale-XF11]

Yes, conservative Republicans are cold-blooded assholes who don't care when people die. You keep telling yourself that.

Some of them also regularly put words in other people's mouths.

 

[demosthenes]

The irony in the OP speech is amazing.

 

[Amir0x]

We don't have to; they keep telling us themselves.

You know what's most tragic to me? When Democrats who vote Democrats buy into the bullshit too. Like there's this african american lady at work, supervisor in another department, and she's like all pro obama. But then if you talk about welfare she's all "I used to live in the ghetto, trust and believe more people than not are abusing welfare. Shut that shit down."

That's more tragic that the crazy Republicans who just know it's bs but argue it anyway because it's politically expedient.

 

[Angelus Errare]

http://youtu.be/SaXtYipHOFE

NSFW (light NSFW but the guy is killed on video) no gore, blood can be seen pooling as darkness after he's killed, nothing really graphic.

ASSAULT rifle... Crazy shootout

To some NRA members he's a hero because he fought against oppression *eyeroll*.

Still trying to think of a normal situation where that kind of firepower would be needed to be kept inside the house.

When the commi...umm..socia...minori..errr.. bad people come to attack.

That kind of rhetoric is dangerous as fuck.

"Stand up for America."

Against who asshole?

Let's see everything they are/were pretty much against

Civil Rights
Women's Rights
Gay Rights
Mental Healthcare
Healthcare Reforms

Basically they're kinda against anything that isn't White, Male, and Conservative.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

I wasn't targetting you btw, I hadn't read through the thread

I have no problem or questions of anyone who just likes the feel of a gun, I can see the attraction. The obsession with owning one and having as few restrictions as possible around it though, I find completely baffling.

Sure, I thought it'd be a good opportunity to clear that up though.

Spoiler

I don't want anyone "targetting" me in a gun thread! ;-P

 

[The_Hitcher89]

Sure, I thought it'd be a good opportunity to clear that up though.

Spoiler

I don't want anyone "targetting" me in a gun thread! ;-P

If I was targetting you, you wouldn't know about it sunshine

 

[Slo]

*sigh* We in the North are getting sick of having to come down there and kick your asses every couple hundred years. You'd think they'd learn.

 

[Yoritomo]

I can see why you'd think that. But I'd argue that the NRA is no longer keeping that mantle in my mind. They've moved away from sensible legislation to catering to more guns, bigger guns, guns for everyone, guns everywhere. It's no surprise then that many now equate "NRA = gun nut" especially when the NRA is actively against things that many of the gun owners I know are for such as background checks, mandatory training and such.

There's a been a rift between many gun owners and the NRA for years now. Most of it is due to the compromises they are willing to make and the rhetoric they use to win support. From giving the Hughes Amendment a pass while going for the Firearms Owners Protection Act (which was actually aimed at weakening the ATF with regards to FFLs and oversight ) to being dickbags leading up to and during DC vs Heller.


When the "opposition" is using appeals to emotion, you can always rely on the NRA to counter with appeals to emotion.

If you want small steps and actual progress engage in rhetoric that involves individuals like David Kopel, Alan Gura, Alan Gottlieb (who actually penned toomey-manchin).

Stupidity and ridiculous rhetoric will be met with stupidity and ridiculous rhetoric from the NRA, and the NRA is actually pretty damned effective, so when the appeals to emotion come out, the donations roll in. Gaf's mentality towards progress in gun regulation is the fuel that lines the NRAs coffers and increases their membership rolls.

 

[Dude Abides]

There's a been a rift between many gun owners and the NRA for years now. Most of it is due to the compromises they are willing to make and the rhetoric they use to win support. From giving the Hughes Amendment a pass while going for the Firearms Owners Protection Act (which was actually aimed at weakening the ATF with regards to FFLs and oversight ) to being dickbags leading up to and during DC vs Heller.


When the "opposition" is using appeals to emotion, you can always rely on the NRA to counter with appeals to emotion.

If you want small steps and actual progress engage in rhetoric that involves individuals like David Kopel, Alan Gura, Alan Gottlieb (who actually penned toomey-manchin).

Stupidity and ridiculous rhetoric will be met with stupidity and ridiculous rhetoric from the NRA, and the NRA is actually pretty damned effective, so when the appeals to emotion come out, the donations roll in. Gaf's mentality towards progress in gun regulation is the fuel that lines the NRAs coffers and increases their membership rolls.

You mean libruls did it first!

Also, Alan Gottlieb is a fucking loon. Dave Kopel isn't far behind.

 

[Yoritomo]

You mean libruls did it first!

Also, Alan Gottlieb is a fucking loon. Dave Kopel isn't far behind.

Everyone does it at some point.

It's amazing everything that has happened post Heller lol. People are busy arguing over stupidity in the legislative branch while the judicial is still being rocked by shockwaves from Heller. Those three are riding the shockwavein various ways, there's other names I've missed by they seem the most prolific in the public eye.

I don't know if you should be happy or pissed because it's eventually going to echo back to the supreme court. The next appointee who replaces a "conservative" judge seems pretty important.

 

[el retorno]

Everyone does it at some point.

It's amazing everything that has happened post Heller lol. People are busy arguing over stupidity in the legislative branch while the judicial is still being rocked by shockwaves from Heller. Those three are riding the shockwavein various ways, there's other names I've missed by they seem the most prolific in the public eye.

I don't know if you should be happy or pissed because it's eventually going to echo back to the supreme court. The next appointee who replaces a "conservative" judge seems pretty important.

Yes, because hopefully we can go back to how the second amendment was not giving people the right to carry arms without restrictions and it said nothing about the "right of self-defense" or hunting which Scalia used heavily to defend the interpretation. And he puts in limitations that have no constitutional reasoning.

Heller is a horrible decision even if you agree with the individual right interpretation, which I don't.

 

[Dude Abides]

Everyone does it at some point.

It's amazing everything that has happened post Heller lol. People are busy arguing over stupidity in the legislative branch while the judicial is still being rocked by shockwaves from Heller. Those three are riding the shockwavein various ways, there's other names I've missed by they seem the most prolific in the public eye.

I don't know if you should be happy or pissed because it's eventually going to echo back to the supreme court. The next appointee who replaces a "conservative" judge seems pretty important.

Not really. Heller hasn't affected much unless you live in DC or Chicago. It gets a lot of press attention but it's not very meaningful as a legal matter because, contrary to widepread gun nut paranoia, there's actually no effort to restrict gun rights more narrowly than the holding in Heller in the first place.

 

[Tenumi]

I don't want to live on this planet anymore in this country anymore.

You and me both. I'm about 3 hours away from Windsor, ON, Canada. I'm a lot closer to Canada than I thought I was. Maybe someday...

 

[BocoDragon]

Times like this make me glad I'm Canadian.

Co-signed.

 

[Trey]

You know what's most tragic to me? When Democrats who vote Democrats buy into the bullshit too. Like there's this african american lady at work, supervisor in another department, and she's like all pro obama. But then if you talk about welfare she's all "I used to live in the ghetto, trust and believe more people than not are abusing welfare. Shut that shit down."

That's more tragic that the crazy Republicans who just know it's bs but argue it anyway because it's politically expedient.

It's tragic because that's how welfare is set up and actually works in those kinds of neighborhoods. You come from there and you only have one perspective to take with you. Entire generations are raised on welfare. Many kids grow up and don't make it through high school. And they don't even know life is passing them by. And the cycle continues in a negative fashion.

 

[Log4Girlz]

This fucking shit again?

Your guns won't do jack shit against a highly-trained SWAT team, especially the ones from the big cities.

And even if by some goddamn miracle you made it passed them, there is absolutely no way in fucking hell, that you're getting past the US military.

The Whiskey Rebellion was put down EASILY. And that was when the playing field was much more even. It STILL ended in failure.

How did Rebellion work out for the South? The Union crushed their asses.

If you somehow think that you can fight the United States government of 2013, you are delusional and out of your goddamned mind.

Their guns couldn't even protect them from "unconstitutional" searches.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

What is he going to do if he or someone he cares about is having a heart attack? Shoot it?

Instead of compressing someone's chest manually, you could put a kevlar vest on the person and use an automatic weapon! Much faster!

 

[iamaustrian]

Palin and Nugent together at one convention.
nut job overload

 

[MaddenNFL64]

Nope. A long and fruitless guerilla war might be possible, but it better be over something other than the 2nd or you will be fighting a very large majority of the population.

If you are going to revolt, it better have very wide support and be for something very bloody important. Background checks and magazine caps aint it.

Seriously, if right wingers start a war over their fucking hobby, they won't have anyone but themselves.

 

[Aeriscloud]

So war hungry that they want to start a war with the rest of their fellow Americans, because those Americans are tired of seeing other Americans die from gun wounds? Makes sense.

 

[michaelius]

ITT: spot the deluded fools that think they could win a rebellion against the army with more money than the armies of the rest of the world put together.

Is that army made of foreign mercenaries who don't have friends and families among those would be revolutionaries ?

No ? Than how can you be so sure some of the soldiers wouldn't decide to fight on the other side?

 

[Maledict]

I'm beginning to get the impression that owning a gun in case of government tyranny is the same as 'liking' the Red Cross on Facebook but not actually doing anything. It makes you feel like you've done something but actually its as bad as doing nothing at all. If people really feared government takeover and the removal of civil liberties there's a lot more you could be doing - campaigning, running for office yourself, becoming active in politics etc.

Also, gun threads always seem to have an incredible population of 'no true Scotsman' fallacies. Every time you see people constantly talk about 'responsible gun owners' and 'real gun enthusiasts' and 'normal gun culture' as if the people on display are somehow not real gun owners and shouldn't be used to describe gun owners. The lines are constantly redrawn to exclude these people and pretend they aren't actually a significant proportion of gun owners.

 

[fallagin]

No ? Than how can you be so sure some of the soldiers wouldn't decide to fight on the other side?

I'm sorry but this line of thinking is pure fantasy. People in the military get divergence beaten out of them. You can't even report a rape without getting scolded by your superiors.

 

[Dead Man]

Is that army made of foreign mercenaries who don't have friends and families among those would be revolutionaries ?

No ? Than how can you be so sure some of the soldiers wouldn't decide to fight on the other side?

Can we agree that not all soldiers will join any rebellion? Can we further agree that unless said rebellion has a very large support base and a very good cause, most military members will continue to follow orders? Can we also agree that individual servicepeople joining a rebellion will not aid anyone very much since it will not include the vital support functions for heavy weapons, fueling and runways for planes, integrated logistical support, and ability to access stockpiles of munitions and supplies?

Given all that, some guys rocking up with M4's will not make that much difference.

 

[SmokyDave]

If I ever see someone wearing a shirt that says, "I don't dial 911" with an M1911 on it? I'm going to assume that person is a psychopath.

I mean, fucking honestly. I swear people that are that into self-defense just seem like they're chomping at the bit to "defend their home." It's honestly like they want to kill someone.

There's no point in owning toys if you can't play with them.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

I'm sorry but this line of thinking is pure fantasy. People in the military get divergence beaten out of them. You can't even report a rape without getting scolded by your superiors.

So you think it's impossible to have a civil war where elements of the military (possibly very large ones) joins the rebellion?

Because if you do, you would be mistaken.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

That kind of rhetoric is dangerous as fuck.

"Stand up for America."

Against who asshole?

The North.

 

[fallagin]

So you think it's impossible to have a civil war where elements of the military (possibly very large ones) joins the rebellion?

Because if you do, you would be mistaken.

Not in any significant numbers I don't think.

Particularly because of intense focused propaganda efforts that the military is wont to do.

 

[Dead Man]

So you think it's impossible to have a civil war where elements of the military (possibly very large ones) joins the rebellion?

Because if you do, you would be mistaken.

It is quite possible. It would take much more than anything that the US government will do to the 2nd amendment in the next 10 years.

Without massive military rebellion, most of the high speed gear people want to assume they will fight with just isn't going to be available.

 

[TacticalFox88]

So you think it's impossible to have a civil war where elements of the military (possibly very large ones) joins the rebellion?

Because if you do, you would be mistaken.

A lot of people are in the military for the paycheck and supporting their families. Joining some fantasy rebellion, literally, negates ALL of their benefits.

It wouldn't be worth it for only the most diehard supporters