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[McSpidey]

That would rock. PC devs could QR their trailer or green light.

Edit:

You're a lucky one who have been chosen out of billions of GAFers.

New tradition, top of the page screenshot of a game I am currently playing. Whoever grabs the first post will post a new screenshot of a game he liked, so that people entering the thread see something nice. That tradition worked nice in the Vita thread

Check out Mr Rescue from The Free Bundle 7

 

[Alex Connolly]

As per requested by our Indie Monarch, Toma.

Expeditions: Conquistador - 20USD

A debut SRPG of sorts from Danish outfit Logic Artists set within the heyday of the Spanish conquistadors, featuring tactical roleplaying game with a touch of strategic resource management and a pinch of choose-your-own-adventure. Conquistador is set in a rarely visited part of history which is rife with mystery, political intrigue, and good old-fashioned violence.

In short, it has been described as Pirates meets Jagged Alliance. Thumbs up.

GAF OT here for further info.

 

[Toma]

As per requested by our Indie Monarch, Toma.

Haha, thanks for posting. That makes sure I wont forget to add it next month

 

[Hofmann]

That would rock. PC devs could QR their trailer or green light.

You're a lucky one who have been chosen out of billions of GAFers.

New tradition, top of the page screenshot of a game I am currently playing. Whoever grabs the first post will post a new screenshot of a game he liked, so that people entering the thread see something nice. That tradition worked nice in the Vita thread

 

[Toma]

You're a lucky one who have been chosen out of billions of GAFers.

We'll see if it catches on, but if 3-4 people do it regularly some more will follow

Anyway, what are you playing atm Hoffmann? (And all of you others)
I am still biting my teeth into Sentinel (and becoming slightly desperate) while waiting for Last of Us and Animal Crossing next week.

 

[Hofmann]

We'll see if it catches on, but if 3-4 people do it regularly some more will follow

Anyway, what are you playing atm Hoffmann? (And all of you others)
I am still biting my teeth into Sentinel (and becoming slightly desperate) while waiting for Last of Us and Animal Crossing next week.

I shouldn't have shown you the damn game

As for games, I want to see what's behind the

Spoiler

three keys door

in Starseed Pilgrim. Then Kentucky Route Zero for the second and third time, if time allows, XCOM - which I got from GAFer, thanks - and a few smaller games from the OP.

 

[Hofmann]

Screenshot Saturday

#2


The Coral Cave - Simply beautiful, entirely handmade Point & Click adventure game, done by a duo of French comic artists, set on a remote island in Okinawa archipelago, influenced by a Japanese folklore.

Permutation Racer - The screen I've found and put here is quite old - the dev posted a youtube video instead: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYVropr8hTk

DwarfCorp - That's how you travel in Dwarfland.

ESC – Typing for a survival. Protect ESC from other keyboard keys by pressing them to destroy.

Zombygon - Mix of an adventure game and a top down survival shooter, designed as a multiplayer experience - Co-op or PvP.

Thank God For The Rain - No idea really if it's a title of Nuprahtor's ''roguelike'' game - probably not. But what the hell, I was listening to Purple Rain when I saw this screen, not to mention that Taxi Driver is a great movie.

 

[Weltall Zero]

They're nothing more than a sport. Of course it has its purpose, I love playing Chess and I can think of a lot of reasons for doing other similar things, but in no way it can be compared to an art.

We were talking about "meaning", not "art" nor "artistic intention" (a term which might be closer to what you mean?).

I didn't mean it if you read between the paragraphs. I wrote it in response to Dascu, saying that interactions in KRZ are meaningless, which makes every action in any other game as meaningless, because the player is only able to do as much as a designer/system allows him to do, well, at least that's how it is in theory. And that's not the point of it. Every interaction should be considered as a part of a bigger picture, you can't just take them out of context. Playing chess is not only about moving pieces of wooden blocks from one place to another. The same can be applied to KRZ.

Actually, his argument was that KRZ's choices were meaningless, because they ultimately don't affect anything (haven't played it, can't comment). You somehow extrapolated that his logic meant that all choices in games are meaningless. You used reductio ad absurdum to topple his argument, but it doesn't work here because, indeed, there IS a different between a game with meaningless choices and one with meaningful ones.

What it has to do with what he wrote? Something having no clear relation to reality is unimportant here. What the author wants to achieve in his work is what matters. Want to make a game in that narrow understanding of a word, where mastering a system is a main goal - do it, but if you have something important to say or beautiful to show - level of abstractness doesn't matter - and for whatever reason you think videogames are best suited for your vision than try to avoid those game mechanics, because they usually only distract the player; use only the devices that communicate those thoughts or feelings. Simple as that.

I did not say that authors should not make interactive fiction or that it should include game-like elements. I said that we should distinguish between the two, so that we don't apply the same rules when measuring quality. This is exactly what you're advocating! The only difference between our opinions is that you want to apply the term "game" to something that literally does not fit its dictionary definition.

 

[Hofmann]

Screenshot Saturday

#3


Memory of a Broken Dimension – Have no idea what meshes stored in a texture for a fast vert updating means but, nontheless, it looks fuckin' great.

Cloudface - Definitely not a sad face.

Luxuria Superbia – Another screen that you can't see shit, but what can be cooler than a game about sex, natural order, lust and pride.

Octopus City Blues – Hallucinogenic Octopus City simulation. Probably some wacky action-adventure game.

Will You Ever Return: in da hood - Jack King-Spooner feat. Biggie Smalls in da club.

Static Sky - Tactical combat game set in Cyberpunk world, designed for tablets. Do you want iOS and Android games in this thread - I'm just curious?

 

[Toma]

New ETA for the Sentinel demo is next tuesday... in between all that E3 craziness. I probably should wait with the Sentinel thread until after E3..

 

[Hofmann]

New ETA for the Sentinel demo is next tuesday... in between all that E3 craziness. I probably should wait with the Sentinel thread until after E3..

Completely different matter, but did you get the list update for the program. Too bad nobody's using it.

 

[Toma]

Completely different matter, but did you get the list update for the program. Too bad nobody's using it.

I did, I was a bit busy last week, but I'll update the database later today And its not that bad that we dont have many people using it yet tbh. I planned on making a GAF thread eventually that will probably give it some more attention when I managed to integrate the next features I have in mind. Its just a bit annoying for testing and balancing purposes NOW regarding the recommendation formulas.

 

[Hofmann]

We were talking about "meaning", not "art" nor "artistic intention" (a term which might be closer to what you mean?).

There's always some meaning behind every form of expression. I just meant that games are not that important as art in a larger scale. And please don't hate me for what I said;D - it's just a personal opinion.

Actually, his argument was that KRZ's choices were meaningless, because they ultimately don't affect anything (haven't played it, can't comment). You somehow extrapolated that his logic meant that all choices in games are meaningless. You used reductio ad absurdum to topple his argument, but it doesn't work here because, indeed, there IS a different between a game with meaningless choices and one with meaningful ones.

I know what he said, but that's not entirely true for KRZ. Even if it was - who cares - not every game has to convey its meaning in the same way and comparing it to clicking on txt files is just not fair.

I did not say that authors should not make interactive fiction or that it should include game-like elements. I said that we should distinguish between the two, so that we don't apply the same rules when measuring quality. This is exactly what you're advocating! The only difference between our opinions is that you want to apply the term "game" to something that literally does not fit its dictionary definition.

They use the same language, so I don't see a reason why not. The whole discussion, is it a game or not is kind of pointless, because there's no clear distinction between those two concepts when it comes to how they are created. Like I said I like the term Videogame more, which can contain the dictionary definition of games you think of, notgames and everything else that's hard to define. For example I don't know if Little Inferno is a game, toy or art piece, so we would be talking about this issue every time on similar occasions, if we keep those distinctions alive.

 

[Hofmann]

I did, I was a bit busy last week, but I'll update the database later today And its not that bad that we dont have many people using it yet tbh. I planned on making a GAF thread eventually that will probably give it some more attention when I managed to integrate the next features I have in mind. Its just a bit annoying for testing and balancing purposes NOW regarding the recommendation formulas.

No problem. I just thought you might have missed it and I promised to deliver, so I didn't want to look unreliable, lol.

 

[Toma]

No problem. I just thought you might have missed it and I promised to deliver, so I didn't want to look unreliable, lol.

I certainly wouldnt think that about you. And I just updated the Database, so you can grab the newest one with the Download functions (Remember to download the new pictures too).

If you want to update your impressions, simply update the same post that you used before for writing posting the impressions readout.

 

[Hofmann]

I certainly wouldnt think that about you. And I just updated the Database, so you can grab the newest one with the Download functions (Remember to download the new pictures too).

That's great, gonna rate and post some impressions for the new games later.

 

[Toma]

That's great, gonna rate and post some impressions for the new games later.

Sorry about the delay for the new features, but before that I need to check whether I can iron out the XP compatibility.

 

[Hofmann]

Sorry about the delay for the new features, but before that I need to check whether I can iron out the XP compatibility.

No need to be sorry for anything, you've already done more than enough for indie games in this community.

 

[Weltall Zero]

There's always some meaning behind every form of expression. I just meant that games are not that important as art in a larger scale. And please don't hate me for what I said;D - it's just a personal opinion.

But you do realize that it's an opinion, and passing it as fact is insulting for those that take games very seriously? Do you realize how, say, Kasparov would be offended if you told him that games are unimportand and hold no meaning? Or those of us that have been studing game theory and game design?

I know what he said, but that's not entirely true for KRZ. Even if it was - who cares - not every game has to convey its meaning in the same way and comparing it to clicking on txt files is just not fair.

Again, I can't talk about KRZ in particular, and you're free to disagree with him on that and argue that KRZ has or doesn't has meaningful choice. I'm just saying that generalizating to say that all choices in games are meaningless is the wrong road to take.

They use the same language, so I don't see a reason why not.

Movies and TV series also use the same language, but they're not the same. Nobody would argue they are, and if someone referred to one as the other, I'm guessing nobody would call the distinction pointless.

What's more, games and interactive fiction do not use the same language. Games have win states, fail states, rules, etc; interactive fiction does not. Obviously, there is an entire spectrum

The whole discussion, is it a game or not is kind of pointless, because there's no clear distinction between those two concepts when it comes to how they are created. Like I said I like the term Videogame more, which can contain the dictionary definition of games you think of, notgames and everything else that's hard to define. For example I don't know if Little Inferno is a game, toy or art piece, so we would be talking about this issue every time on similar occasions, if we keep those distinctions alive.

But Little Inferno DOES have rules, resources, meaningful choices and a win state; it has gameplay it can be judged upon. What I'm trying to tell you is that I'm on your side; distinguishing games from interactive fiction allows the second to be judged on different merits, which is exactly what you want.

It still seems to me somehow that you think I'm demonizing interactive fiction or even "interactive fiction-y" games, when 999, To the Moon and Walking Dead are among my favorite games . I'm not arguing this as a pointless semantics exercise; I want to alleviate most criticism of "non-interactivity" leveraged at them by bringing the fact they're entirely different beasts to the front. If we keep labeling them as "games", people will keep judging them as such and (rightfully) complaining about their gameplay (or lack thereof). You realize there is no way around that, right? It's right there in the name, you can't have a "game" without "gameplay".

 

[Platy]

Cloud face and Coral Cave looks awesome ! =D


Anyone going to e3 ?

The Ouyia Stand looks to have some awesome indie games, including Towerfall =3

 

[Hofmann]

But you do realize that it's an opinion, and passing it as fact is insulting for those that take games very seriously? Do you realize how, say, Kasparov would be offended if you told him that games are unimportand and hold no meaning? Or those of us that have been studing game theory and game design?

Don't know if you are serious or not, just in case - I didn't want to offend anyone. I play a lot of games and I love them. I'm sorry if you felt that way - that was not my intention, but I didn't say they're meaningless. In my opinion, again, they just have less impact on a culture than art.

Movies and TV series also use the same language, but they're not the same. Nobody would argue they are, and if someone referred to one as the other, I'm guessing nobody would call the distinction pointless.

So what, now we're gonna stop calling any episodic games as games - it's all just semantics. If you find better term than Videogames, in a broader sense - then ok, but you can't call every notgame IF.

Oh, and change my quote - it looks like I'm totally contradicting myself

 

[Toma]

Just dont kill each other, guys. If you stay alive I am fine with your discussions because it nicely bumps the thread

 

[Hofmann]

Cloud face and Coral Cave looks awesome ! =D

Yeah, Coral Cave's art is just amazing, so are animations in Cloudface.

 

[Hofmann]

Just dont kill each other, guys. If you stay alive I am fine with your discussions because it nicely bumps the thread

The discussion doesn't lead anywhere, so it's better to end this. I just hope Kentucky Route Zero sold few more copies thanks to this!

 

[Platy]

Yeah, Coral Cave's art is just amazing, so are animations in Cloudface.

The happy walking of Cloudface reminds me of the running animations of Splosion Man xD

 

[Toma]

The discussion doesn't lead anywhere, so it's better to end this. I just hope Kentucky Route Zero sold few more copies thanks to this!

There was still the thing about the puzzles that I wanted to comment on, but I didnt feel like writing that up yet. In a distant future, far , far away, you might receive a PM about it

 

[Hofmann]

There was still the thing about the puzzles that I wanted to comment on, but I didnt feel like writing that up yet. In a distant future, far , far away, you might receive a PM about it

Ah, no problem, take you time I just couldn't think of what part you are referring to.

 

[Hofmann]

Zirkonia - Classic turn-based tactical RPG. I believe there are many starved fans of those kind of games.

You control a small party of heroes on a grid and try to defeat the enemies strategically before you pip out. It's extremely important to keep an overview of the field. That's why the positioning of your characters is decisive to sidestep traps or prepare your own ambushes.

Every character disposes of two resources: action points and concentration points. Those points are used to either perform actions like attack and move or to use special skills. The tactic the character is following at the moment, which can be changed every turn, determines the rate of these points...

Zirkonia arise from the thought that there wasn't enough love for tactical role-playing games during the last time, especially for the PC. It orientates itself by the named models but follows very different paths in many aspects. The game isn't focused on an unmanageable bunch of characters but on a small group, whose individual development - regarding their skills as well as their personalities - comes to the fore much more.

 

[Hofmann]

The happy walking of Cloudface reminds me of the running animations of Splosion Man xD

One more in this case - a ducking animation.

Now that's cute.

 

[Ledsen]

Cloudface is just animations at this point, right, not actually a game?

 

[Hofmann]

Futuridium - Futuristic shoot'em up that will be released on 20th of June for Free.

- No special powers, no bonuses: only the player reflexes count. Your ship, your lasers, your ability!
- You can stop and turn your ship 180° at any time, just pressing a button
- All the levels are HUGE alien capital ships. You fly over them, under them, trying to destroy all the energy cubes (blue cubes), to reveal the main cube (golden cube) that keeps the ship flying.
- No speed control: you fly as fast as possible...

Italians Do It Better.

 

[Hofmann]

Cloudface is just animations at this point, right, not actually a game?

Seems pretty early. You can follow its development here: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=33248.0

 

[Weltall Zero]

Don't know if you are serious or not, just in case - I didn't want to offend anyone.

That's exactly why I'm mentioning it. If I felt it was your intention there would be no point in making you aware of it.

And I was dead serious. There's entire fields of science devoted to studying games, from their cultural impact, to game theory (that applies not just to literal games, but to many other fields like evolutionary behaviourism, economics, etc), game design, etc. There are people, many in fact, who devote their lives to perfecting the craft of making games. Games have formed a part of human history since pretty much the beginning of it, are present in virtually all cultures, and are a crucial part of learning for human children (and many higher mammals!). I think it's about time we, of all people, showed a bit of respect for them and their sociocultural role, no?

I play a lot of games and I love them. I'm sorry if you felt that way - that was not my intention, but I didn't say they're meaningless. In my opinion, again, they just have less impact on a culture than art.

I personally didn't feel insulted myself, but I did feel many people who I admire were slighted.
And, well, obviously you're entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine, but I hope you realize if I said that art is of lesser value to society than science, some people might be offended.

Spoiler

Disclaimer: not my actual opinion, but one I've heard from others on more than one occasion.

So what, now we're gonna stop calling any episodic games as games

Why should we? Episodic games ARE games, it's right there in the term.

it's all just semantics.

No, it's all definitions, which is the starting point of any meaningful discussion. See below:

If you find better term than Videogames, in a broader sense - then ok, but you can't call every notgame IF.

You've just called them "notgames", when you are also advocating calling them "games". You still think we don't need a term or definition for them?

"Interactive fiction" is a perfectly descriptive term for these which have as their primary purpose telling a story, with gameplay being a secondary or non-concern. Hell, the already existing term "visual novel" does not reference or imply gameplay of any kind; "Interactive fiction" is just a broader term that also encompasses nontextual entries. There are other types of interactive software (for example, those more akin to toys, sandboxes without goals), but we specifically were discussing these kinds of games/notgames/software/whatever.

Pardon my insistence on a particular term for them, but I think it would benefit all of us if we mentally categorized them separate from "traditional" games. There is zero chance that they will stop being reviled otherwise.

Oh, and change my quote - it looks like I'm totally contradicting myself

Whoops, fixed.

Just dont kill each other, guys. If you stay alive I am fine with your discussions because it nicely bumps the thread

Even though I know you mean that as a joke, it's actually true that I've noticed there's a trend in GAF, and specifically in smallish, community oriented threads, to shy away from any kind of discussion, as if they were going to spark off the third world war, and any posters that disagree with other posters are thought of as "troublemakers". It's as if all disagreement and discussion was perceived as fighting and aggresion. To me, this only promotes thought uniformity, sterility, and isolation, which is the opposite of what GAF is supposed to be about. I wouldn't be surprised if the notion of "GAF hivemind" stemmed from it.

I may come across as antagonistic or something, and also as being very sure of my position, but it's actually a topic I hadn't thought much about, find interesting, and have not strongly formed opinions yet. I believe words change people's way of thinking much, much more than most are aware of, so it feels important to me. Of course, Hofmann is entitled to terminate the discussion if he wants.

 

[Hofmann]

That's exactly why I'm mentioning it. If I felt it was your intention there would be no point in making you aware of it.

Again, sorry, even if it didn't personally affect you. I usually laugh when I hear good lawyer joke.

I don't want to lessen their importance, but games (in their dictionary understanding) never made me feel in the same way as for example good literature, movie or architecture and I believe it's because of their competitive and rules obeying nature, in contrary to videogames that value art such as Kentucky Route Zero or Bientôt l'été - I can't find any other explanation for this.

You've just called them "notgames", when you are also advocating calling them "games". You still think we don't need a term or definition for them?

Notgames is not really a subcategory, it's just a design philosophy that could be applied to videogames.

"Interactive fiction" is a perfectly descriptive term for these which have as their primary purpose telling a story, with gameplay being a secondary or non-concern. There are other types of interactive software (for example, those more akin to toys, sandboxes without goals), but we specifically were discussing these kinds of games/notgames/software/whatever.

Nobody's stoping you from calling them like that. But to be consistent you should use terms such as Interactive Poetry, Interactive Paintings, Interactive Movies, Interactive Music Albums, etc. For the discussion's purpose I'll stay with games, as for shortened videogames, to keep it simple.

 

[Dascu]

Kinda annoyed my comment spawned this entire conversation. My (final) two cents on the matter:

I don't care much how we call or define them (though I'm generally pro the interactive fiction distinction), but I don't like it when such "games" get ranked on Top Ten lists and what-not. I couldn't give two shits if you had a philosophical epiphany and became a Tibetan monk after "playing" such a game, but don't you dare rank it higher in a game list above something like Ikaruga or Super Metroid if the depth of the interaction amounts to clicking forward to read the next line of text.

Makes about as much sense as putting a song in a Top Ten movies list if you ask me.

 

[KuroNeeko]

No, it's all definitions, which is the starting point of any meaningful discussion. See below:

Yeah, this is probably the biggest thing that stuck out to me during your conversation. "Game" is such a nebulous term, just like "art". Some authors go on for pages about what a "game" is, or what is "fun" - it's an important discussion to have, but reaching a consensus that fits everyone is just as difficult as defining other subjective words like "life" or "fun".

If Hofmann feels that games are relatively unimportant, that's fine. If that is his opinion, then it's just as valid as not. I think it's too bad, but games have potential to be art because essentially, they're all about experiences and are definitely outlets for expression.

Getting back to the discussion at hand though, the question of "what is a game" is probably the first thing that two people discussing games will need to talk about. Whether you agree or not, I think it's great having two (or more!) people sit down and hammer out the boundaries of the gaming experience. Once you two know where each other firmly sit, then you move on to the juicier stuff.

 

[Toma]

Someone remind me in a later thread that, if anyone new asks the same question again, we'll just link him to this thread and tell him to read up

Random aside: We are nearing 100k views for all threads combined!

 

[Hofmann]

Yeah, this is probably the biggest thing that stuck out to me during your conversation. "Game" is such a nebulous term, just like "art". Some authors go on for pages about what a "game" is, or what is "fun" - it's an important discussion to have, but reaching a consensus that fits everyone is just as difficult as defining other subjective words like "life" or "fun".

I actually agree with Welltal Zero in most parts and it's me who's using the term ''game'' more freely - his definition is the strict one.

If Hofmann feels that games are relatively unimportant, that's fine. If that is his opinion, then it's just as valid as not. I think it's too bad, but games have potential to be art because essentially, they're all about experiences and are definitely outlets for expression.

One more time. I never said that games are unimportant - they just serve different purpose.

 

[Hofmann]

Thanks McSpidey for the edit.

 

[Toma]

Check out Mr Rescue from The Free Bundle 7

Did you play it? Still havent properly checked it out yet and I dont think anyone wrote some impressions so far.

 

[McSpidey]

Can "sports" like chess be both art and game at the same time?

Did you play it? Still havent properly checked it out yet and I dont think anyone wrote some impressions so far.

I just ran it for the first time when I saw the top-page rule. So far it's just what it looks like in the trailers, you have a time delayed auto-replenishing but small water supply and you traverse up floors of a burning building using it to put out static fire blockades, destroy mobile fire enemies, smash doors/windows or push helpless residents around like a bully. The fires are really just obstacles to get between you and the panicked residents who can't wait for you to pick them up and toss them out the nearest window for great justice. Unfortunately it's up to your imagination to visualise their broken bodies as they hit the ground and wait for death's sweet mercy, though the designers were kind enough to let you start their deep agony before you finish them by pushing them with the water cannon into the fires like human shields, saving your suit from overheating damage. The game also features power-ups in the form of hallucinogenic drugs that trick you into thinking your suit is repaired or your water has been refilled. Unfortunately torturing or refusing to throw too many residents in the building results in a stern talking to by your boss who's waiting patiently at the building's roof portal who clearly prefers the more humane finish. He also manages some crocodile tears for the press if you decide to spend some extra time in the building and your clearly sabotaged suit fails to protect you.

The music is bitty and pumps along at a decent pace, not so silently condoning your actions. The only thing that bothered me was how long you have to twiddle your thumbs waiting for your plasma pistol to cool down and the way too stylised-though-dither fog of war dressed as smoke. For a quick free romp you won't want your 5 minutes back, so I'd say their 5 minutes of fame will be deserved. Download, tweet and go militant breaking and entering now at http://www.thefreebundle.com/

Under this mask lies the face of a killer.

 

[KuroNeeko]

I actually agree with Welltal Zero in most parts and it's me who's using the term ''game'' more freely - his definition is the strict one.

Sure. I don't think there's anything "wrong" with your definition. It's different from mine, but there 's nothing wrong with that.

One more time. I never said that games are unimportant - they just serve different purpose.

Sorry, I didn't mean to put those words in your mouth. I meant, "relatively unimportant when compared to art" as a form of expression.

Can "sports" like chess be both art and game at the same time?

Sure, at least I think so. Rather in the case of chess, I think the chess board serves as a canvas, and the players create the art.

 

[McSpidey]

Sure, at least I think so.

Phew, crisis averted

 

[Chainsawkitten]

Can "sports" like chess be both art and game at the same time?

Game and art aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, but that doesn't mean games are a medium for art, just like tools aren't.

 

[McSpidey]

Games are built using tools, just as tools work with any medium so your analogy falls short. And I don't know about you but I "play" my musical instruments, which are a tool to make music. A common name for tools are toys, as in "a boy with his toys". Anything can be turned into a game.

I see no value in this whole non-disccussable concept because I don't mind if other people subcategorise the world into different shaped chunks than me. I just loved how perfectly that specific vertical chess pic worked to debunk that specific train of thought.

 

[One Foul Note]

So I've had a good run through with Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness 4 and I am fairly impressed with it. There was this initial mild disappointment involved with it because (this might have just been me reading into something wrongly) with some of the previews it seemed to suggest that the game would be a homage to monster collecting RPGs but mechanically ingame it is almost exactly the same as number 3 except the main characters are now accessories. Also I was hoping that with the number change Zeboyd would take the opportunity to fix up some of the interface issues, but they've kinda done nothing to it. However, I am still really enjoying the game, the monster party members are helping to keep the battle tactics from becoming too samey and there seems to be even greater levels of non-repeating monsters. Overall, I would give it a very respectable 7.5/10.

 

[Roland1979]

The Coral Cave - Simply beautiful, entirely handmade Point & Click adventure game, done by a duo of French comic artists, set on a remote island in Okinawa archipelago, influenced by a Japanese folklore.

hand-painted watercolors...
this one's one my list!

 

[Weltall Zero]

Kinda annoyed my comment spawned this entire conversation.

Don't be, it's a good discussion.

My (final) two cents on the matter:

I don't care much how we call or define them (though I'm generally pro the interactive fiction distinction), but I don't like it when such "games" get ranked on Top Ten lists and what-not. I couldn't give two shits if you had a philosophical epiphany and became a Tibetan monk after "playing" such a game, but don't you dare rank it higher in a game list above something like Ikaruga or Super Metroid if the depth of the interaction amounts to clicking forward to read the next line of text.

Makes about as much sense as putting a song in a Top Ten movies list if you ask me.

That's EXACTLY my point, thanks! Glad to see I'm not alone in this!

Yeah, this is probably the biggest thing that stuck out to me during your conversation. "Game" is such a nebulous term, just like "art". Some authors go on for pages about what a "game" is, or what is "fun" - it's an important discussion to have, but reaching a consensus that fits everyone is just as difficult as defining other subjective words like "life" or "fun".

If Hofmann feels that games are relatively unimportant, that's fine. If that is his opinion, then it's just as valid as not. I think it's too bad, but games have potential to be art because essentially, they're all about experiences and are definitely outlets for expression.

Actually, I believe the importance of games is independent of their categorization as art. Even without going into the eternal debate of "are/can videogames be art?", that doesn't make them any less valuable and useful. It would be like saying that engineering is not art, therefore is unimportant.

Getting back to the discussion at hand though, the question of "what is a game" is probably the first thing that two people discussing games will need to talk about. Whether you agree or not, I think it's great having two (or more!) people sit down and hammer out the boundaries of the gaming experience. Once you two know where each other firmly sit, then you move on to the juicier stuff.

Indeed! How can we judge what's the best game if we don't even agree what a "game" is? We actually had that problem in the indie game of all time voting thread; it was hard to get two people, let alone all of GAF, agree on what an "indie game" is.

Did you play it? Still havent properly checked it out yet and I dont think anyone wrote some impressions so far.

I played it and I actually liked it quite a lot. It's really recommended if you want a classic arcade-like, challenging game. The only thing I dislike is the absence of a "clean slate" between stages, so that if you ended a stage nearly dying, you'll most certainly die in the first seconds of the next. This makes what could be a mad dash to finish a stage turn into a kind of apathy, and also a mess up early on is pretty much unrecoverable, so that makes you try to conserve temperature much more, which goes somewhat against the arcadey, fast-paced nature of the game.

 

[BomberMouse]

GhostControl Inc. – A hilarious ghost-hunting simulation

Looks good http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1184280206/ghostcontrol-inc

 

[Chainsawkitten]

Games are built using tools, just as tools work with any medium so your analogy falls short. And I don't know about you but I "play" my musical instruments, which are a tool to make music. A common name for tools are toys, as in "a boy with his toys". Anything can be turned into a game.

I see no value in this whole non-disccussable concept because I don't mind if other people subcategorise the world into different shaped chunks than me. I just loved how perfectly that specific vertical chess pic worked to debunk that specific train of thought.

You misinterpreted what I said. When I say "tools are not a medium of art", I mean that tools in themselves are not art. Of course they can be used to make art, but they are not art by themselves because they have a utilitarian purpose, as opposed to art which by definition does not have utilitarian purpose.

A pair of scissors is not art. A paper sculture made using the same pair of scissors is art.

You music is art; your musical instrument is not.