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Juror says Zimmerman went "above and beyond" and has "learned a good lesson"

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Mononoke

Banned
Like Zimmerman's police record.

Yes, exactly. Although the problem with this discussion is that some don't believe that Martin started the actual physical conflict. But assuming he did:

The question is, do you guys believe that Martin had a right to start throwing punches at Zimmerman for following him as long as he did? I understand why Martin acted the way he did. I know I would be sketched out if someone was following me. But legally, are we allowed to start throwing punches for something like that?

I would argue yes. I mean, couldn't he feel that his life was in danger too? Shouldn't it go both ways?
 

Liha

Banned
Well, anyone who is currently hunting GZ is definitely not reading this forum.
GZ got away with murder, and we all must deal with it. OJ is a fine, very fine example.

The justice cannot always win. I mean the people on the streets. Zimmerman is guilty, fucking justice system.

Sure, black people should just accept the fact they're racially profiled and great injustices are committed against them and just shut up and deal with them.

This is a opinion, not fact.
 

Yoritomo

Member
the all white jury, in the south.

You think an all black jury would have determined that? Or do you just think white people are naturally more capable of being objective than black people. Pretending that the jury's position is the only reasonable position is absurd.


And arguing that Trayvon punching a stalking Zimmerman when he was scared should be on the hook for assault, but Zimmerman killing Trayvon when he was scared should be acquitted, is some more double standard bullshit. Zimmerman could shoot Trayvon because he doesn't think the threat will end till he's dead. But Trayvon can't knock Zimmerman unconscious because he has no reason to believe Zimmerman won't get up and keep chasing him if left conscious?


DOES TRAYVON MARTIN HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEFEND HIMSELF OR NOT?

What's he defending, His honor? Cause some racist asshole profiled him? When was he attacked?
 

commedieu

Banned
I'm telling everyone. Escalating a verbal confrontation into a physical one is fucking stupid.

Why did you leave out the part where Trayvon called zimmerman a nigger in your post, but left the cracker part?

It is stupid, which is why Adults have a responsibility, while being armed, and on the phone with police, to not put themselves into a situation that could escalate, when you don't identify yourself to strangers. Trayvon just turned 17.
 

No Love

Banned
I think one of the real, nearly unspoken issues that I'm getting from this entire ordeal, including the juror's statements, is that people seem to think it's totally ok that Zimmerman saw a black kid walking down the street, and, because there was a series of break ins in the neighborhood by black youth, made the connection in his head that, "Well, if one black person committed a crime in this neighborhood, all blacks that fit the profile of that one black person must be a criminal as well."

That is not cool, and that is the definition of racial profiling. If the burglars had been white males, and Zimmerman made the connection that "white male = criminal," it would still be racial profiling, and it would still be wrong.

The jurors of this case clearly didn't see anything wrong with Zimmerman suspecting Trayvon, despite Trayvon not actively doing anything to suggest he was up to no good. And, as has been pointed out, it was 7 in the evening. Who breaks into a home on a Sunday night? The day before a work week, when the family is usually at home?

Also, The 7/11 Trayvon was walking from wasn't in the gated community, and we know that Zimmerman had been following him from before Trayvon even entered the community. We know this, because, if I remember correctly, Zimmerman stated that he passed Trayvon, then waited at the clubhouse, and started following him again by vehicle when he passed him (and entered the gated community). So, Zimmerman had made a judgment call about Trayvon and what he was about, before he entered the community, and before he started "acting strange, like he was on drugs or something."

Despite the jury being pointed out time and again Zimmerman's intent to follow and detain, they brushed it aside because, "hey, Trayvon was suspicious for some reason, and it's totally ok for a 'boy of color' to be detained by a non LEO because the complete stranger following him wants to detain him."

Trayvon had no obligation to explain himself, and, Zimmerman's own recorded account, Trayvon tried to get away by running. Zimmerman didn't let him get away. He followed him, and, according to Rachel, who heard the start of the altercation, questioned what Trayvon was doing in the neighborhood, and did Trayvon swing a punch? No, he asked Zimmerman, "Why are you following me?" As as an adult, Zimmerman could have de-escalated the situation by saying he was with neighborhood watch and didn't recognize him. But instead, Zimmerman said nothing, and I feel that at this point, he tried to detain Trayvon by pulling his gun, and then the fight happened. I don't discount Rachel's observations. It doesn't matter if her testimony lacked eloquence. She reported what she heard. And it's routinely dismissed because of "reasons." But Zimmerman's account, which, I'm sorry, evidence does not corroborate, is taken as gospel truth.

Evidence shows that Zimmerman was not being pummeled. He took at least 1-3 punches to the face tops, and 1-2 blows to the concrete, which could have happened when he first hit the ground. This does not vibe with his account of being mounted MMA style and his head slammed against the ground "25+ times."

The jury seemed to ignore the physical evidence (including lack of Zimmerman's DNA on Trayvon; lack of defensive wounds on Zimmerman, as, I'd imagine, someone who is fighting for their life would have), and just took Zimmerman's account as true, despite admitting that there were "lies and exaggerations."

But hey, he only killed a 17 year old, and he's "learned his lesson." I'm sure dead Trayvon is glad to know that his death taught Zimmerman a valuable life lesson.

Great post. All the great posts like this one need to be put in the OP.
 
I don't think this can be repeated enough. Seems people believe that a creepy ass cracker tailing them is justification for a fist fight. It's not, and you are either going to end up dead or with assault charges if that is your response.
This is so much bullshit. The boy is dead, yet people would rather believe the claims of a man with a history of violence, lies, and racial rantings. Who's to say that Trayvon didn't actually see a gun in Zimmerman's hands, and felt the need to fight for his life? Trayvon didn't have the sordid history behind him, and if he felt the right to stand his ground and defend himself why was he wrong? I know I don't run from every knucklehead that approaches me crazy; why is the onus on him to back down? Please, that's fucking bullshit.
 
Like Zimmerman's police record.

Ultra combo!!

hgE6uJccG9.gif
 

Yoritomo

Member
Everything you've said suggests you don't think Trayvon has any rights. No right of self defense, no right to stand his ground.


You're blaming Trayvon for punching a stalking Zimmerman but defending Zimmerman for killing Trayvon for a bloody nose and some 2 cm head scrapes. You clearly lack any kind of colorblind objectivity, stop feigning it and gtfo this thread with your racist shit.

Everything you've said indicates you think violence is a proper response for hurt feelings.
 

Mumei

Member
I think the society should accept this judgement. The U.S. is a constitutional state and not a fascistic / racist state. This racism argument is just embarrassing.

You know, a state can simultaneously be both "constitutional" (or rather, a constitutional republic) and "racist."
 

Vahagn

Member
What's he defending, His honor? Cause some racist asshole profiled him? When was he attacked?

asshole, he doesn't need to be attacked. He has to be in FEAR of great bodily injury or harm. Injuries are not required.

If you think a kid getting chased by someone in a car and on foot doesn't have the right to be scared, you're full of shit.

If a black guy chased you in the night in a car and on foot, i doubt for one split second you give him the benefit of the doubt. And if you have a gun, you'd take it out and shoot him cold blooded.


Everything you've said indicates you think violence is a proper response for hurt feelings.

who said his feelings were hurt? Everything I said is I think violence is a proper response for being stalked and chased at night by someone that may be a murderer, rapist, lyncher, pedophile, etc. Someone any normal human being has a reasonable fear of.
 
People with guns acting like vigilantes get the benefit of the doubt especially if the victim is black, it's great. And by great I mean, everyone watch your ass.
 

Flo_Evans

Member
Why did you leave out the part where Trayvon called zimmerman a nigger in your post, but left the cracker part?

It is stupid, which is why Adults have a responsibility, while being armed, and on the phone with police, to not put themselves into a situation that could escalate, when you don't identify yourself to strangers. Trayvon just turned 17.

I thought creepy ass cracker had a better lyrical flow to it? Plus it better fits Zimmerman.

I actually agree that when carrying a weapon you have a duty to not put yourself in situation where you might have to use it. I am pretty sure I have been consistent that Zimmerman was an idiot for following Martin.
 
The prosecution didn't do their job.

... But I would have voted the same way she did. It seemed like there was a struggle between them.

And when there's a fight, it becomes "who punched first?". We don't know that, so it'd be hard to convict him.

Yes, I know, I don't know the law. That's just how I interpret things about this case.
 

dan2026

Member
Personally I think the crucial point is this;

'If the wannabe vigilante didn't have a gun there is an almost certain chance nobody would of died'

There might of been some fisticuffs but letting just any 'dogooder' just walk around with a pistol is mind blowing to me.

Of course shit like this will happen. People are unreliable. People panic. People make mistakes. Can everyone really be trusted with the power of life or death in their fingertips?
 

Derwind

Member
What's he defending, His honor? Cause some racist asshole profiled him? When was he attacked?

Personally I found this a little discomforting.

I think, I think George got in a little bit too deep, which he shouldn’t have been there. But Trayvon decided that he wasn’t going to let him scare him and get the one-over, up on him, or something. And I think Trayvon got mad and attacked him.

I'm probably nitpicking but the way she phrased her words, kind of irritates me.

Goerge didn't go just "a little too deep", he fully fucked up to tremendous porportions.

And the way Trayvon is characterized almost sounds like a guy trying to protect some reputation. Mad and attacked him? Can't he be scared??? Is that at all possible because it seems like something not acknowledged. That in a young persons situation, being followed by car, running from that, then when evading the car being followed on foot and approached by a random unidentifiable grown male who doesn't annouce who he is or why he's chasing after him, with a weapon on his persons is somehow not something that can bubble fear or create a sense of danger.

Why is it that "anger" and "pride"(getting a 1up) is the most likely emotional motivator for someone like Trayvon to defend himself not be a mix of fear and confusion, resulting in triggering his instinct for survival?

You and B37 infuriate me.
 

Perkel

Banned
Even if a fight is provoked, it can still be an unlawful use of force. This isn't the school yard. Had Zimmerman not had a gun Trayvon would have been on the hook for assault which is preferable to being dead, but the assault escalated to a situation where there was a disparity of force and the jury determined Zimmerman protected himself with a lawful use of deadly force.

I think from both points of view whole case is why this fight occurred in first place. It was either:

- Zimmerman aggressively confronting Trayvon
- Trayvon being aggressive toward unknown to him person
- or both

It is doubtful that either Zimmerman or Trayvon had this fight planned as continuation what they started to do (Z: pursuing confrontation, T: avoiding confrontation)

Clear is that if both of them would be peaceful there would be no death of Trayvon
Someone had to start the fight.
 

GungHo

Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
Relevant: Florida woman receives 20 years for firing warning shot to stop abusive husband.
http://t.co/eK1UorHhlm
Absolutely ridiculous. Stand your ground doesn't apply to your house? Florida has a problem.

Warning shots aren't a legal (or safe, or wise) use of a firearm. Not by anyone. Not by private citizens. Not by police. Not by soldiers. She was horrendously overcharged, but she should not have been no-billed.
 

Mononoke

Banned
I think from both points of view whole case is why this fight occurred in first place. It was either:

- Zimmerman aggressively confronting Trayvon
- Trayvon being aggressive toward unknown to him person
- or both

It is doubtful that either Zimmerman or Trayvon had this fight planned as continuation what they started to do (Z: pursuing confrontation, T: avoiding confrontation)

Clear is that if both of them would be peaceful there would be no death of Trayvon
Someone had to start the fight.

Some would argue, that Zimmerman following him for blocks = him starting the fight.
 
He was killed in self defense per the jury for beating another man's head against concrete.

Where's the hard evidence that says Trayvon actually initiated the fight? Is there evidence Zimmerman didn't initiate a grapple as he tried to detail the 'thug' he was stalking? As events happened nothing's clear beyond the fact the testimony was unreliable. However you can look at what led up to the event and in lying to the police, in engaging the kid when he was specifically told not to follow him an armed Zimmerman shown negligence.
 

Vahagn

Member
Warning shots aren't a legal use of a firearm. Not by anyone. Not by private citizens. Not by police. Not by soldiers. She was horrendously overcharged, but she should not have been no-billed.

Police get off for killing people, and definitely for firing warning shots. Stop with this nonsense. Create a million and one different laws, the enforce the laws whenever you want, and ignore them whenever else you want based on race.


We don't need you to tell us it is or isn't illegal. A state that just let someone walk after murdering them cannot convict someone for firing a warning shot. That's a cherry picking use of the law, and one where what's legal is irrelevant as it's not enforced equally.
 

wildfire

Banned
To me, this case embodies the state of modern racism in America.

The racism extant in this case is not overt. It is not "black people are evil" or anything else stated out loud (although I am aware that still happens. I know there are racist police). It doesn't even appear that people are even thinking this inside the privacy of their own heads. Instead, it's something that occurs with enough subtlety that our rule of law cannot precisely pinpoint where it all went wrong. It seems like we are systemically applying a set of rules, and yet when we see the results, the results don't come out right.

In short, I feel that racism in America exists not just unspoken, but even between the lines of legislation in such a way that everything looks fine on paper but wrong in practice.

I would like to add to this because it's not just about how non-partiality and fairness is applied in the justice system.

We have a group of people who subtlety advocate racism on the basis of excuses. If you challenge them they ignore you or nitpick a comment to deconstruct everything else until you keep coming back to them on why that nitpick is still wrong.

They hold an attitude that racism is the least important reason or no justifiable one at all for the consequences of various events even after you isolate for various factors on how people can respond to a situation.

Ultimately this is a problem that is just as pernicious as the times when the legal system is short circuited and is a direct cause of why the legal system goes haywire.

Personally I think there is both an image and lack of dependency problem that allows this persist.
 

Liha

Banned
You know, a state can simultaneously be both "constitutional" (or rather, a constitutional republic) and "racist."

I know that, I have no moral opinion about this case. It's good when the people control the justice system but please objectively. I dislike this "He is guilty, **** the rest" movement.
 

nib95

Banned
Some would argue, that Zimmerman following him for blocks = him starting the fight.

Exactly. The jury left this out but this is the incident that instigated it, and what I would say caused TM to act in fear, aggression or self defence. Following someone in the middle of the night without reason or based on racial profiling is antagonistic. Unless you're a police officer, don't do it. Especially whilst being armed with a gun.
 
To me, this case embodies the state of modern racism in America.

The racism extant in this case is not overt. It is not "black people are evil" or anything else stated out loud (although I am aware that still happens. I know there are racist police). It doesn't even appear that people are even thinking this inside the privacy of their own heads. Instead, it's something that occurs with enough subtlety that our rule of law cannot precisely pinpoint where it all went wrong. It seems like we are systemically applying a set of rules, and yet when we see the results, the results don't come out right.

In short, I feel that racism in America exists not just unspoken, but even between the lines of legislation in such a way that everything looks fine on paper but wrong in practice.
Yeah, It's something happening at a sub conscious level with people, nothing that has come out of this case has seemed blatant but there is definitely a racial undercurrent like you said. Really it's a natural thing for all people to make snap judgments when they initially see someone, you could even theorize it as being a defense mechanism of sorts, but being the logical creatures we are, we should be able to recognize and circumvent our own biases when need be and this juror and Zimmerman failed to do that, and perhaps that's where these laws fail; because they don't recognize how biased we can be.
 
Between the Juror B37, Sanford Police and etc, you see the definite evidence of institutionalized racism.

Zims lawyers lack character, that's very disappointing.
 

wildfire

Banned
This is a opinion, not fact.

It is a fact.


The prosecution didn't do their job.

... But I would have voted the same way she did. It seemed like there was a struggle between them.

And when there's a fight, it becomes "who punched first?". We don't know that, so it'd be hard to convict him.

Yes, I know, I don't know the law. That's just how I interpret things about this case.

And what about the manslaughter charge? You wouldn't convict him for that?
 
Personally I think the crucial point is this;

'If the wannabe vigilante didn't have a gun there is an almost certain chance nobody would of died'

There might of been some fisticuffs but letting just any 'dogooder' just walk around with a pistol is mind blowing to me.

Of course shit like this will happen. People are unreliable. People panic. People make mistakes. Can everyone really be trusted with the power of life or death in their fingertips?

No and that's why real cops have a fuck ton of training. And they still screw up too. But I'd rather people only be concerned with cops fucking up than random people running around like fucking cowboys.
 

TheYanger

Member
You do know it was raining that night? ... Wearing a hoodie in that fashion makes sense.
Or you expected him to walk in the rain naked?

It was raining. Weird justification here.

Holy shit learn to comprehend. The article was stating that hoodies are associated with crime and that Zimmerman was profiling based on the hoodie and actions TM was taking. It didn't say anything about racism, it's talking about hoodieism. I was stating that people were reading it wrong, because they were quoting it talking about race, it's not, it's talking about god damn hoodies. Hoodies are ABSOLUTELY associated with criminal activity. I'm not saying nobody can wear them nor that you shouldn't put the fucking hood up, I LOVE HOODIES, but the notion that you look more like a delinquent in a hoodie than in a jacket is pretty damn obvious.

You're just proving my point that people can't read anything related to this case without trying to turn it into a race war, even things that are completely unrelated.
 

MThanded

I Was There! Official L Receiver 2/12/2016
It is a fact.

And what about the manslaughter charge? You wouldn't convict him for that?
Damn Miles from Moesha vandalizing cars. For shame.

Holy shit learn to comprehend. The article was stating that hoodies are associated with crime and that Zimmerman was profiling based on the hoodie and actions TM was taking. It didn't say anything about racism, it's talking about hoodieism. I was stating that people were reading it wrong, because they were quoting it talking about race, it's not, it's talking about god damn hoodies. Hoodies are ABSOLUTELY associated with criminal activity. I'm not saying nobody can wear them nor that you shouldn't put the fucking hood up, I LOVE HOODIES, but the notion that you look more like a delinquent in a hoodie than in a jacket is pretty damn obvious.

You're just proving my point that people can't read anything related to this case without trying to turn it into a race war, even things that are completely unrelated.
My post was related to race how? People upset about racism stretching to impose claims of racism. That's a new one. I said it was a "weird justification". Race wasn't even my point of contention.
 

Jack_AG

Banned
Sure, black people should just accept the fact they're racially profiled and great injustices are committed against them and just shut up and deal with them.
I don't mean to throw myself in this quarrel but this is such an irresponsible thing to say. Your assumption that all black people are profiled is simply inaccurate. If your case was the truth we would see a LOT more of it and I assure you it would be making headlines day in day out.

Much in the same way babies aren't the primary murder target of their own mothers which happens a lot more than a single Casey Anthony case. Many mothers suffer depression and take the lives of their babies but it is not the norm as you suggest racial profiling exists.

Does it exist? Fuck yes. Does it exist in every case? No. Does that mean we should still try to encourage discourse to change minds for the better? Yes. Does that mean we can apply racial profiling as a global, widespread fact? No.

It sucks, yes it does. But if anyone is to have legitimate discourse on the subject we cannot make such irresponsible claims as it only serves to muddy up the waters.

Please, man. Please let's not use absolutes. You are a smart guy and I believe you are getting too caught up.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
You realize hoodies are banned in some countries right? They ARE associated with criminals, they just also happen to be too popular to do anything about it in the US (they're associated wtih things like college athletics as well here).

Why do I care about other countries when we live in America. And in America the hoodie is as natural to wear as a T-Shirt.
 

Mononoke

Banned
No and that's why real cops have a fuck ton of training. And they still screw up too. But I'd rather people only be concerned with cops fucking up than random people running around like fucking cowboys.

Agreed. Even with a ton of training, cops can still freeze up, or overreact in the heat of a moment when they feel their lives are in danger. Problem is, "fearing your life is in danger" is completely subjective to the individual, and isn't always a legitimate fear. This idea that shooting someone can be justified "if you feared for your life" - seems pretty damn crazy. Especially when there isn't always enough evidence to prove or disprove that the fear was legitimate. So what the hell do you do in those cases?

So it makes you wonder. Even trained professionals don't know how they will react, imagine how a gun can make an average person without extensive training react in certain situations. Also, I feel too often when someone gets into a fight, if they get beat, they are in such anger that their first reaction is to pull out their gun (if they have one). While I believe people have the right to defend themselves if they are in a fight (especially unprovoked), a fist fight does not = a battle to the death.
 

GungHo

Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
Police get off for killing people, and definitely for firing warning shots. Stop with this nonsense. Create a million and one different laws, the enforce the laws whenever you want, and ignore them whenever else you want based on race.


We don't need you to tell us it is or isn't illegal. A state that just let someone walk after murdering them cannot convict someone for firing a warning shot. That's a cherry picking use of the law, and one where what's legal is irrelevant as it's not enforced equally.
I really think you're letting your anger get the better of you and that you are being aggressive with me unnecessarily.
 

KHarvey16

Member
Lol, the stuff I posted is PART of the law. The same stuff is in the two links you provided from the Crown Prosecution guidance. Read through it and take note of how past cases setting binding precedent in the UK form part of our law.

The case you cited was about a man that was not justified in killing. He initially acted properly but continued to slash when he wasn't justified in doing so. He would be breaking the law in the states as well.

This is all that is said on reasonable force in the Criminal Law act 1967. Binding precent and court rulings fill in the gaps based on a common sense understanding of the law.

Again, the case you cited provides nothing in support of your claims.
 
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