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[ArchangelWest]

How dare I? Good grief. What's wrong with you? We're talking about games and a games console here man.

Meh, whatever... Go be 'outraged' somewhere else you thread de-railer.

 

[plank]

How dare you you attack me for calling out a huge fanboy that keeps on shitting up this thread!

He does not ask questions at all!
He makes unfounded statements and attacks anyone that disagrees!

I don't see him attacking anyone. Just debating.

 

[TheD]

How dare I? Good grief. What's wrong with you? We're talking about games and a games console here man.

Meh, whatever... Go be 'outraged' somewhere else you thread de-railer.

What is wrong is being attacked by people like you!
I have far more technical knowledge than most posters yet I am afraid of posting in this thread due to the attacks krizzx levels at anyone that does not say only good things about the WiiU!

Hell, I was hyped for the WiiU before launch, I love tech, don't even own a console and I have call out the the over hype of the PS4 and XB1!

I don't see him attacking anyone. Just debating.

Please stop. You have jumped far out of bounds and are comparing grapefruits to cucumbers now.

We the same model from two games in the same series of the same make. The only differences here are the system strength. Its an Apple's to Apple's comparison. Trying to go make round about augments like that is just grasping for straws in defense at this point.

Wii U renditions is clearly a huge leap over the previous one.

All that for pointing out that in the Sonic screenshots the character models look like they are using phong shading and stating out it has been used for awhile in other games!

 

[plank]

What is wrong is being attacked by people like you!
I have far more technical knowledge than most posters yet I am afraid of posting in this thread due to the attacks krizzx levels at anyone that does not say only good things about the WiiU!

Hell, I was hyped for the WiiU before launch, I love tech, don't even own a console and I have call out the the over hype of the PS4 and XB1!







All that for pointing out that in the Sonic screenshots the character models look like they are using phong shading and stating out it has been used for awhile in other games!

Like I've said he's not attacking anyone.

 

[fred]

And he does have a point regarding higher poly models, better quality textures, improvedlighting etc too. We've seen this in several titles. There are several titles that we've seen that look 'next gen' - X, Bayonetta 2, Sonic Lost World, Mario Kart 8 and SSBU all look beyond anything that the PS3 and 360 are capable of. I'd also add Pikmin 3 to that list too.

 

[TheD]

And he does have a point regarding higher poly models, better quality textures, improvedlighting etc too. We've seen this in several titles. There are several titles that we've seen that look 'next gen' - X, Bayonetta 2, Sonic Lost World, Mario Kart 8 and SSBU all look beyond anything that the PS3 and 360 are capable of. I'd also add Pikmin 3 to that list too.

Games like SSBU do not look even close to beyond what a 360 or PS3 can do.
Hell, I had to google screenshots to even make sure the shots posted of it were been from the WiiU!
X does not look that impressive, I saw some really low poly count objects and a fair amount of shimmering.
Sonic Lost World does not look close to being beyond what the other consoles can do.
Pikmin 3 is also like the others.

I have not seen Mario Kart or Bayonetta 2.

Like I've said he's not attacking anyone.

Yes he is, claiming someone is "out of bounds" for posting a screenshot is attacking.

 

[bomblord]

Games like SSBU do not look even close to beyond what a 360 or PS3 can do.
Hell, I had to google screenshots to even make sure the shots posted of it were been from the WiiU!
X does not look that impressive, I saw some really low poly count objects and a fair amount of shimmering.
Sonic Lost World does not look close to being beyond what the other consoles can do.
Pikmin 3 is also like the others.

I have not seen Mario Kart or Bayonetta 2.



Yes he is, claiming someone is "out of bounds" for posting a screenshot is attacking.

Pikmin 3 is doing quite a lot for starting out as a wii game. The only thing about it that's not very good is the ground textures the lighting and some of the environmental models look absolutely amazing.

 

[TheD]

Pikmin 3 is doing quite a lot for starting out as a wii game. The only thing about it that's not very good is the ground textures the lighting and some of the environmental models look absolutely amazing.

Models are quite low poly, the lighting looks good but nothing insane.

 

[Saint Gregory]

Pikmin 3 is doing quite a lot for starting out as a wii game. The only thing about it that's not very good is the ground textures the lighting and some of the environmental models look absolutely amazing.

I unfortunately haven't had a chance to spend much time with Pikmin 3 so far but since you posted these I did notice something really strange in my short playtime.

During the segments where the sun sets and the ship and onion take off the light being cast from the ship's engines seem to be illuminating advanced texture maps on the ground that you can't see with the game's normal environmental lights.

I'm not sure what it means but I wonder if Nintendo planned to use bump mapping or some other process to make the ground look more realistic but then abandoned it due to hardware or time constraints. Has anyone else noticed this?

 

[w1gglyjones]

Wow... thread getting hot

What is wrong is being attacked by people like you!
I have far more technical knowledge than most posters yet I am afraid of posting in this thread due to the attacks krizzx levels at anyone that does not say only good things about the WiiU!

Hell, I was hyped for the WiiU before launch, I love tech, don't even own a console and I have call out the the over hype of the PS4 and XB1!

If you know that krizzx lacks the knowledge (as demonstrated to you by his many posts) to discuss these things properly, then maybe an alternative way to contritubte to this thread (besides replying to him) would be to offer your insight on the other, even if few, topics being brought up. i think people would appreciate your contributions more in this manner, I know I would.

 

[QaaQer]

If this thread keeps devolving it will probably be shut down...

Mercy killing.

Still fun to see the WUST hopefuls still fighting the good fight. I don't have the heart to tell them nobody cares anymore.

 

[lwilliams3]

Mercy killing.

Still fun to see the WUST hopefuls still fighting the good fight. I don't have the heart to tell them nobody cares anymore.

Since this thread keeps on going and still has some nice technical info, it seems that someone cares to me.

Wow... thread getting hot



If you know that krizzx lacks the knowledge (as demonstrated to you by his many posts) to discuss these things properly, then maybe an alternative way to contritubte to this thread (besides replying to him) would be to offer your insight on the other, even if few, topics being brought up. i think people would appreciate your contributions more in this manner, I know I would.

I have to agree with this post, TheD. I understand that it can be frustrating reading some of the posts in this thread, but I believe it will be more productive to share your knowledge and inform other readers how things actually works instead of calling out posters that may not even understand why you are so upset at them.

 

[krizzx]

Can someone tell me how to report posts. I can't find the option. I"ve had enough of this harassment.

 

[krizzx]

Since this thread keeps on going and still has some nice technical info, it seems that someone cares to me.



I have to agree with this post, TheD. I understand that it can be frustrating reading some of the posts in this thread, but I believe it will be more productive to share your knowledge and inform other readers how things actually works instead of calling out posters that may not even understand why you are so upset at them.

Called out? He claims I've done things that I haven't and distorts everything I've stated to mean something completely different then it was intended to be. He has not shown a single instance of things he claims I do. He simply quotes my posts and then labels what I say as he sees fit and outright dismisses anything I provide with nothing provided to the contrary or at all on his part. That is not calling out. That is flaming,

I don't use personal attacks to argue.

This is ridiculous. What did I do in this thread for everyone suddenly vilify me like I'm a troll?

Mercy killing.

Still fun to see the WUST hopefuls still fighting the good fight. I don't have the heart to tell them nobody cares anymore.

Why do you wish for this thread to be shut down so much. In fact, I've noticed over the months that it is always someone who generally doesn't like the hardware that starts making suggestion for the thread to be shut down, like they don't want the hardware capabilities analyzed beyond what is currently believed for some reason.

I would figure that it would be more logical to remove those who do not stay on topic or try to actually contribute to the thread. Progress is still being made between the fits of people coming in here to downplay any all suggestions of better performance.

 

[guek]

Games like SSBU do not look even close to beyond what a 360 or PS3 can do.
Hell, I had to google screenshots to even make sure the shots posted of it were been from the WiiU!
X does not look that impressive, I saw some really low poly count objects and a fair amount of shimmering.
Sonic Lost World does not look close to being beyond what the other consoles can do.
Pikmin 3 is also like the others.

I have not seen Mario Kart or Bayonetta 2.



Yes he is, claiming someone is "out of bounds" for posting a screenshot is attacking.

All you're doing is making subjective, one line judgements without presenting an actual, tangible argument for your opinions. This is, verbatim, exactly what you're accusing krizzx of doing. Anyone could reply to this post with the exact opposite of what you said and it would be just as convincing a case for the contrary since you're not really saying anything of real merit.

You're entitled to think wii u games look unimpressive compared to PS360 games since that's subjective opinion but don't go on about how you're so knowledgeable without actually dropping some knowledge. There are people who believe PS4/Xb1 games look on par with Wii U or even PS360. Of course they'd be wrong on a technical level, just as you're wrong, actually factually wrong, when it comes to texture sizes in Wii U games compared to PS360 games, or DoF effects, or the lack of screen tearing, or whatever actual notable differences there are between the hardware.

edit: also, while I'm really unimpressed with Lost World visually, there is no possible way in hell PS3 or 360 could run that game at 1080p/60fps. No goddamn way. Not without framedrops everywhere and screen tearing up the ass. That said, I'm not sure if it even is 1080p. I thought I remembered hearing it was 720 but those recent screenshots are 1080. I'm willing to bet they're bullshots though either way. At 720p/60fps, PS360 could probably pull it off but there'd still be screen tearing from time to time since every PS360 game in the past 5 years seems to have tearing.

 

[krizzx]

edit: also, while I'm really unimpressed with Lost World visually, there is no possible way in hell PS3 or 360 could run that game at 1080p/60fps. No goddamn way. Not without framedrops everywhere and screen tearing up the ass. That said, I'm not sure if it even is 1080p. I thought I remembered hearing it was 720 but those recent screenshots are 1080. I'm willing to bet they're bullshots though either way. At 720p/60fps, PS360 could probably pull it off but there'd still be screen tearing from time to time since every PS360 game in the past 5 years seems to have tearing.

Actually, even the 60 FPS is unlikely. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=77793633&postcount=8390

Sonic Generations was probably the best developed Sonic game on the PS3/360. This version is showing clear visual improvements in polygon count, textures resolution and frame rate(generaitons was 30 FPS on the consoles) from all that I can tell. They tried for a 60 FPS version with Unleashed before it but the frame rate was unstable and there were many huge drops.At least that was the case when I played it on the 360.

Things like plantlike that cast accurate shadows and the far draw distance were simply not present in any 360/PS3 Sonic games to my knowledge(barring Sonic the Hedgehog 2006). I could be mistaken but I"ve not seen details of this calibur in an HD Sonic game before.

I think someone said that the game was stated to be upscaled to 1080p during a dev interview earlier.

 

[NBtoaster]

Lost World actually looks to be fairly low poly in that screenshot.

http://gamingtrend.com/wp-content/screenshots/sonic-lost-world-screens/coop_stealthb_130801_02.jpg

Look at the very simple sillouhettes of the trees and the background (and that background texture). The grass is using very simple 2D shapes thats repeated a lot. Environment shadows appear to be baked and character shadows are innacurate circles underneath them, not real shadowmaps. Levels being abstract platforms floating in a void (as opposed to a detailed city in previous games) also probably helps limit poly usage.

 

[69wpm]

During the segments where the sun sets and the ship and onion take off the light being cast from the ship's engines seem to be illuminating advanced texture maps on the ground that you can't see with the game's normal environmental lights.

I noticed this, too. But I believe they didn't run into problems during development, but the low-res textures might be a design choice to let you see your pikmin armada much better. If you look at screenshots from the E3 2012 build, Pikmin 3 used a different color palette, it was much more realistic. I believe they changed the colors so the Pikmin are easier to see on the ground. Using hi-res textures would only complicate things I believe.

Look at the blue Pikmin, it's a bit hard to see. Now imagine it sitting in some high-res grass with the same green tone, it would be very hard to see. I'm really thankful Nintendo has such good designers that don't go all Killzone and put horrible color palettes in the game.

... character shadows are innacurate circles underneath them, not real shadowmaps.

Take a look at other screenshots, Sonic has a normal shadow, no idea why in this screen it's just a blob.

 

[Smurfman256]

I'm surprised that people are arguing over a Sonic game. The game is designed to be played at high speeds and the background is just supposed to be there.

 

[phosphor112]

Can someone tell me how to report posts. I can't find the option. I"ve had enough of this harassment.

PM a mod, and don't make announcements about "reporting" people. It's not allowed.

Also, you have been overtly aggressive as well. You can't take any criticism.

You ignored StevieP's comments about the AA levels being absolutely unrealistic, which you said he needed to back up. That's just crazy.

You made a crazy comment saying that bigger fans are "more pathetic."... um? What? I don't even know where to start with that.

Also, the whole thing where you talked about the DX11 thing for Project Cars.

You wouldn't even link it. I ended up finding the wrong post (an older changelog) that showed a completely different story. You didn't have the common courtesy to post the link (hell, you say WE need to back up our claims. Not everyone sits in this thread like you. We can't all keep up with all the posts).

You then went on with saying this.

I have no reason to believe that you know anything about what you are talking about. You have made multiple claims that entirely contradict known facts and statement and you always ignore it when anyone posts contradiction to this.

I don't bullshit around, you didn't even show any examples of this claim.

You never correct yourself. This is why I don't waste my time going to gather links. I did many times to you exact posts, and you just completely ignored them all.

I admitted I was wrong, and even kept the original text of my post to SHOW I was wrong. I have no shame in admitting I was wrong, and what do you do? You ignore it.

You've been hypocritical the whole time man. The whole time. Don't dish it out if you can't take it. You've used being a graphic designer as some credential into making some sort of substantiated comments about the "detail" that's on Link. There is no need for that holier than thou mentality here. I've actually designed and created levels for mods in CS 1.6 and Source. I've dicked around with UE3 and made some good headway in CE3. I've made and used normal and UV maps... Hell, I have over 15 hours of computer sciences courses in college. I'm not going to rub that in peoples faces as some sort of credential. I'm wrong at times. A lot of times. But I'm not going to rub this in peoples faces. It's belittling and unnecessary.

But like I said at the start of this post, IF you feel like a mod needs to step in, PM one.

Here is the link.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showgroups.php
Find one online, PM them.

 

[Ishida]

Can someone tell me how to report posts. I can't find the option. I"ve had enough of this harassment.

Ok, I'm not taking any sides here, but this pretty much sounded like "Does anybody knows where my mommy is? Because she WILL hear about all this bullying. Just you wait."

 

[DreadPirateRoberts]

I unfortunately haven't had a chance to spend much time with Pikmin 3 so far but since you posted these I did notice something really strange in my short playtime.

During the segments where the sun sets and the ship and onion take off the light being cast from the ship's engines seem to be illuminating advanced texture maps on the ground that you can't see with the game's normal environmental lights.

I'm not sure what it means but I wonder if Nintendo planned to use bump mapping or some other process to make the ground look more realistic but then abandoned it due to hardware or time constraints. Has anyone else noticed this?

The same effect is used in caves, it could be as simple as not wanting to have it everywhere to avoid the wet/plasticy look those type of effects can give.

 

[Fourth Storm]

Lost World actually looks to be fairly low poly in that screenshot.

http://gamingtrend.com/wp-content/screenshots/sonic-lost-world-screens/coop_stealthb_130801_02.jpg

Look at the very simple sillouhettes of the trees and the background (and that background texture). The grass is using very simple 2D shapes thats repeated a lot. Environment shadows appear to be baked and character shadows are innacurate circles underneath them, not real shadowmaps. Levels being abstract platforms floating in a void (as opposed to a detailed city in previous games) also probably helps limit poly usage.

I agree. Especially your last point about the small, abstract levels. It's the same way Mario Galaxy was able to keep a constant 60. Sonic is no proof of more capable hardware.

 

[z0m3le]

I've sort of taken my leave of this thread since it has become very combative, but polygon wise. We are pretty sure that we know that Wii U produces 550 Million polygons per second, obviously this isn't something you are going to see in games though because realistically models just won't be made to take up the extra power and will only happen when tessellation is involved IMO. However, saying a game looks low poly, isn't really a knock against the hardware, since we know what that number can be. In my opinion what matters is the effects we see, the resolution and frame rate they run at and the overall complexity of the scene (lighting and what not, pushing less polygons will free up some performance, but it's not going to mean much when PS3 was only capable of 333 million polygons per second (even though Xenos was 500m)

I don't really see the point in trying to find secret sauce, the system is more capable than last gen systems, that is factual and while it has strengths and weaknesses, it's only measurable weakness I know of between the 360 and itself is the CPU not processing as many flops, though the GPU is capable of doing this work so the point is moot. Some might point out the ram, but afaik 360's ram is ~11GB/s up and 11GB/s down while Wii U's is 12.8GB/s up OR down, both use eDRAM to avoid bottlenecks, 360's eDRAM is 32GB/s to Xenos and 256GB/s to the ROPs. Wii U's eDRAM gives a higher bandwidth to Latte than 360's to Xenos, but probably less than the 256 to the ROPs. (afaik the minimum for Latte's eDRAM bandwidth is ~72GB/s and could be twice that)

The only interesting thing in this thread lately was the kill a watt power consumption is likely inaccurate, I've seen other threads on other sites use the Kill-a-watt meter to get the 33watts for Wii U, if it really is 38watts+ that does make quite a big difference, as it could leave plenty of room for more ALU performance, considering it's low clock though, this would have to come from more ALUs.

 

[QaaQer]

Why do you wish for this thread to be shut down so much. In fact, I've noticed over the months that it is always someone who generally doesn't like the hardware that starts making suggestion for the thread to be shut down, like they don't want the hardware capabilities analyzed beyond what is currently believed for some reason.

I would figure that it would be more logical to remove those who do not stay on topic or try to actually contribute to the thread. Progress is still being made between the fits of people coming in here to downplay any all suggestions of better performance.

Thread title is "Wii U Latte GPU Die Photo - GPU Feature Set and Power Analysis". That stopped months ago.

The only worthwhile tech poster who is on topic left is Fourthstorm. And he pretty much just shows up time to time to correct the mis-characterization of his analysis by enthusiasts. Otherwise, posts boil down to

• personal attacks/defenses
• support of 'wii u is more powerful than we imagine' not based on photo analysis
• disparaging of 'wii u is more powerful than we imagine' not based on photo analysis

The thread, as far as photo analysis and tech discussion based on that analysis, is dead. But whatever, carry on; cuz it is still somewhat entertaining, just not edifying or on point.

 

[The_Lump]

The only interesting thing in this thread lately was the kill a watt power consumption is likely inaccurate, I've seen other threads on other sites use the Kill-a-watt meter to get the 33watts for Wii U, if it really is 38watts+ that does make quite a big difference, as it could leave plenty of room for more ALU performance, considering it's low clock though, this would have to come from more ALUs.

Agreed. I was hoping we'd stay on that subject for a while and drill down a bit on its potential implications.

Things got a bit nuts in here. Continually arguing with someone you think is shitting up the thread....is shitting up the thread. Let's move on, people!

Spoiler

Before the thread gets nuked!

 

[EDarkness]

I kind of agree that this thread has run it's course. I have nothing against any of the posters in this thread, but people are jumping on Kriz just isn't cool. Everyone has their own opinion about what's in there and based on what I've read on both sides I feel like no one really knows anything for sure, and getting any real information may be difficult at best. Either way, when the thread has to diverge into attacking other posters (for whatever reason), then something is wrong.

 

[TheD]

All you're doing is making subjective, one line judgements without presenting an actual, tangible argument for your opinions. This is, verbatim, exactly what you're accusing krizzx of doing. Anyone could reply to this post with the exact opposite of what you said and it would be just as convincing a case for the contrary since you're not really saying anything of real merit.

You're entitled to think wii u games look unimpressive compared to PS360 games since that's subjective opinion but don't go on about how you're so knowledgeable without actually dropping some knowledge. There are people who believe PS4/Xb1 games look on par with Wii U or even PS360. Of course they'd be wrong on a technical level, just as you're wrong, actually factually wrong, when it comes to texture sizes in Wii U games compared to PS360 games, or DoF effects, or the lack of screen tearing, or whatever actual notable differences there are between the hardware.

edit: also, while I'm really unimpressed with Lost World visually, there is no possible way in hell PS3 or 360 could run that game at 1080p/60fps. No goddamn way. Not without framedrops everywhere and screen tearing up the ass. That said, I'm not sure if it even is 1080p. I thought I remembered hearing it was 720 but those recent screenshots are 1080. I'm willing to bet they're bullshots though either way. At 720p/60fps, PS360 could probably pull it off but there'd still be screen tearing from time to time since every PS360 game in the past 5 years seems to have tearing.

I am not factually wrong!

If you have read my posts in this thread you would see that my statements are correct if you look up the data!

Nothing shown looks better than what the 360 and PS3 can do!
The number of texels to pixels in the screen shots we have seen are not visibly higher than what the twins can pull off.
Nearly no DOF effect is impressive in light of even the 360 pulling off bokeh DOF in games like Crysis 2.

You have to provide video analysis to show the level of screen tearing.

 

[EDarkness]

I am not factually wrong!

If you have read my posts in this thread you would see that my statements are correct if you look up the data!

Nothing shown looks better than what the 360 and PS3 can do!
The number of texels to pixels in the screen shots we have seen are not visibly higher than what the twins can pull off.
Nearly no DOF effect is impressive in light of even the 360 pulling off bokeh DOF in games like Crysis 2.

You have to provide video analysis to show the level of screen tearing.

No offense, man, but you're being just as subjective. How are you not factually wrong when you (or any of us) don't know anything about what's going on in these games to make any claim one way or another? Making the claim that game X looks better than game Y is just personal opinion in the first place.

 

[z0m3le]

I am not factually wrong!

If you have read my posts in this thread you would see that my statements are correct if you look up the data!

Nothing shown looks better than what the 360 and PS3 can do!
The number of texels to pixels in the screen shots we have seen are not visibly higher than what the twins can pull off.
Nearly no DOF effect is impressive in light of even the 360 pulling off bokeh DOF in games like Crysis 2.

You have to provide video analysis to show the level of screen tearing.

Just chill out, the thread isn't TheD's tech analyst of Wii U, or any one persons... We know Wii U is factually more proficient than 360 or PS3. SM3 to SM4 alone can show a huge difference in capabilities. Over twice RAM will allow higher resolution textures and the GPU having a usable tessellator which is at minimum HD 4000 series, meaning far more capable than the surface tessellator in Xenos.

What you are asking for is somewhat subjective and based on opinions, one could have a vastly different outlook on Wii U's power than another as the 170+ pages of this thread clearly shows. I find posters trying to state Wii U can't do anything beyond 360 to base their opinions not on the tech of Wii U, but their feelings after looking at launch games.

Since you are so technically inclined, maybe you can actually point out why Wii U's hardware can't exceed 360's even with the advanced level of hardware, rather than asking someone to show off something that doesn't exist yet to prove your point that Wii U couldn't do it inspite of the tech being more than capable of such feats.

 

[lostinblue]

Nothing shown looks better than what the 360 and PS3 can do!
The number of texels to pixels in the screen shots we have seen are not visibly higher than what the twins can pull off.
Nearly no DOF effect is impressive in light of even the 360 pulling off bokeh DOF in games like Crysis 2.

Seriously.


So you've seen X360/PS3 pulling some advanced effects... Good for you! That's because no matter how much we want to we'll never have a jump like the one from PSone to PS2 in 3D; current gen consoles are still capable and fully programmable, they're not impaired, and they can pull some cool things; it's more like a case of a single track mind at this point in the sense that "so you like this cool thing going on? well, then you can't have that" rather than saying you can't possibly pull whatever's being touted as a next gen effect at least to some scaled down extent. So devs have to choose wisely, and they wisely choose to stray away from some things.

That means it can do some things it doesn't often do, because they're pricey. Regarding the Bokeh, we're seeing it being used all over on the Wii U; opposite of having being used sparingly on the X360. That's because it's comparatively cheaper and you have more overhead to accommodate it. This is not rocket science, I insist.


And for the record, that came across as saying current gen wasn't all that impressive because you have seen HDR on Shadow of the Colossus, Volumetric Fog in Silent Hill 2 or DOF being used on Tri-Ace PS2 games; I could go on.


Please don't be impaired that way.

 

[TheD]

No offense, man, but you're being just as subjective. How are you not factually wrong when you (or any of us) don't know anything about what's going on in these games to make any claim one way or another? Making the claim that game X looks better than game Y is just personal opinion in the first place.

You can make informed analysis of what a game is doing technically based off what effects you can see on screen.

Just chill out, the thread isn't TheD's tech analyst of Wii U, or any one persons... We know Wii U is factually more proficient than 360 or PS3. SM3 to SM4 alone can show a huge difference in capabilities. Over twice RAM will allow higher resolution textures and the GPU having a usable tessellator which is at minimum HD 4000 series, meaning far more capable than the surface tessellator in Xenos.

What you are asking for is somewhat subjective and based on opinions, one could have a vastly different outlook on Wii U's power than another as the 170+ pages of this thread clearly shows. I find posters trying to state Wii U can't do anything beyond 360 to base their opinions not on the tech of Wii U, but their feelings after looking at launch games.

Since you are so technically inclined, maybe you can actually point out why Wii U's hardware can't exceed 360's even with the advanced level of hardware, rather than asking someone to show off something that doesn't exist yet to prove your point that Wii U couldn't do it inspite of the tech being more than capable of such feats.

I did not say it was my thread, what I am saying is that what I have posted in this thread is based in good knowledge of rendering tech.

SM4 helps a bit but we have to remember that the a lot of PS3 games make heavy use of the SPEs which are not limited in the same way as GPU hardware and that just having a higher shader model does not in itself mean that games will look better, you still need rendering power.

2x the RAM can be used for higher res textures, but that does not mean that games on that hardware automatically have 2x the texture res.

It is hard to find info on the difference between the R500's tessellator and the later non DX11 tessellators, but what we do know is that AMD/ATIs tessellators have lagged fair behind Nvidia when it comes to performance till GCN.
It is ultra unlikely that AMD went backwards in performance when they went from non DX11 tessellator to DX11 tessellator.

And you are missing the most important point of all......


I HAVE NOT said that the WiiU can not beat the twins, just that nothing that has been SHOWN looks clearly beyond the PS3 and 360 and that I do not like the posts in this thread that are trying to redefine what the PS3 and 360 could do so people can make claims that a whole bunch of not crash hot looking WiiU games in fact look impossible on the other consoles.

And for the record, that came across as saying current gen wasn't all that impressive because you have seen HDR on Shadow of the Colossus, Volumetric Fog in Silent Hill 2 or DOF being used on Tri-Ace PS2 games; I could go on.

Shadow of the Colossus does not use HDR and if the PS3 and 360 games looked about the same as PS2 games and did not run at a much higher res then they would be unimpressive.

 

[Clefargle]

Mercy killing.

Still fun to see the WUST hopefuls still fighting the good fight. I don't have the heart to tell them nobody cares anymore.

I've been following this thread the whole time since late 2012, I still care.

Edit: doesn't calling for a legit active thread to be closed constitute a ban?

 

[OminoMichelin]

I've been following this thread the whole time since late 2012, I still care.

Edit: doesn't calling for a legit active thread to be closed constitute a ban?

Whining on the topic of a thread ("This thread is useles!!!111!") is bannable.

Also, theD needs to schedule a visit to the nearest oculist, he clearly has eye problems. Having games running at 1080-720/60 constitutes a clear advantage in my book

 

[z0m3le]

You can make informed analysis of what a game is doing technically based off what effects you can see on screen.




I did not say it was my thread, what I am saying is that what I have posted in this thread is based in good knowledge of rendering tech.

SM4 helps a bit but we have to remember that the a lot of PS3 games make heavy use of the SPEs which are not limited in the same way as GPU hardware and that just having a higher shader model does not in itself mean that games will look better, you still need rendering power.

2x the RAM can be used for higher res textures, but that does not mean that games on that hardware automatically have 2x the texture res.

It is hard to find info on the difference between the R500's tessellator and the later non DX11 tessellators, but what we do know is that AMD/ATIs tessellators have lagged fair behind Nvidia when it comes to performance till GCN.
It is ultra unlikely that AMD went backwards in performance when they went from non DX11 tessellator to DX11 tessellator.

And you are missing the most important point of all......


I HAVE NOT said that the WiiU can not beat the twins, just that nothing that has been SHOWN looks clearly beyond the PS3 and 360 and that I do not like the posts in this thread that are trying to redefine what the PS3 and 360 could do so people can make claims that a whole bunch of not crash hot looking WiiU games in fact look impossible on the other consoles.




Shadow of the Colossus does not use HDR and if the PS3 and 360 games looked about the same as PS2 games and did not run at a much higher res then they would be unimpressive.

Sorry if my other post came off a bit combative, what I meant by what this thread isn't was just that we all have opinions coming from various levels of tech knowledge and that everyone should stop feeling like they need to defend their opinions. Use Tech to discuss things or just say they are your opinions, refrain from using "facts" that don't exist as facts, which a lot of people tend to do in this thread (not that I've seen you do it but I figured enough people do it here that maybe they will realize it now) we can have a tech thread about Wii U because it is somewhat interesting as long as you understand the level of hardware in use. (while technically it might be 2009 tech) I think performance wise it falls closer to 2007 PCs. Likewise since GCN (in light of next gen consoles keeps getting thrown around) PS4 and XB1 seem like they are based on 2011 tech but their performance is closer to 2009 PCs.

About the tessellators, HD 4000 series used Gen 2 tessellator from ATI (this was capable of true tessellation and not simply surface tessellation like Xenos) when comparing this to GCN, yes it certainly will lack but that is to be expected, even if they were the same generation tessellator, Wii U has ~1/3rd the polygon count of PS4 and XB1 (which is 1.6B and 1.7B respectively) This should be all we really need to know to frame the picture of what Wii U's tessellator is capable of, HD 4000 also had tessellation demos which we can still easily find on Youtube to give us a pretty solid example of what Wii U's tessellator is capable of.

The last thing I really want to touch on is that as you know, Xenos is a programmable shader system, it can virtually do anything so any one effect could look just as good on 360 as it could on a high end PC, "in a vacuum" this is true, however Wii U's advance features such as SM4+ (which is virtually the same as SM5 as posted a few days ago by me) allow Wii U to do that same effect with less resources and again this is likely true with PS4/XB1. My point here is that there is nothing to really discuss when it comes to "Wii U is more capable than 360/PS3" OR "PS4/XB1 is more capable than Wii U" these are just factual statements that can easily be backed up by confirmed specs. Of course that doesn't stop Wii U from running 1970's space invaders, so a level of production value is needed to exceed the monstrous budgets some PS3/360 games saw, this is also true of XB1 and PS4 however and as we have seen in the early launch games shown for those consoles they also lack a "next gen" look to them at least in my opinion.

So yes while Wii U is lacking when compared to what we expected from next gen or even the stop gap we thought Wii U would be (the place XB1 has taken up) The most important advancements next gen was suppose to bring aren't coming and that is thank to neither competitor bringing the "goods". It's like a race that no one finished, as a "techie" next gen has fallen short and we will miss out on stuff that could of improved dev time and brought a new level of fidelity to our games. We will all get a step up no matter which of these 3 consoles you choose, they are just different levels. The absolute bare minimum (no screen tear thanks to vsync, more solid frame rates thanks to SM4+ and targeting a full resolution like 720p rather than the somewhat abundant 540p+ resolutions we found in many games) that is Wii U, XB1 will be a much more noticeable gap and PS4 even more so.

 

[lostinblue]

Shadow of the Colossus does not use HDR and if the PS3 and 360 games looked about the same as PS2 games and did not run at a much higher res then they would be unimpressive.

For all means and purposes, it does.

Just not on a hardware supported level.


As for the rest, I digress; I think you understood my point just fine, but of course there's a bigger power difference going from the PS2 to X360/PS3 than X360/PS3 to Wii U; hell there's a bigger difference there than from X360/PS3 to PS4 (and even if it was the same, ew've reached the point of diminishing returns); fact is PS2 actually pulled some "next gen" effects too; they were absolutely raping the system though.

 

[Apophis2036]

It'd be a great-looking game from the isometric perspective if it weren't for the jaggies, jaggies everywhere. I feel the same way about Pikmin 3, except that Pikmin should probably be considered great-looking regardless.

Really concerned that the Wii U hardware is for whatever reason handicapped when it comes to AA. Someone in the Gamescom Showfloor impressions thread mentioned that while gorgeous, MK8 suffers from persistent aliasing. It looks like a big problem for Smash Wii U, too. I'd like to hear from someone specifically looking for the phenomenon to comment on how 3DWorld and Tropical Freeze fare in this context.

I was actually surprised how how 'clean' W-101 looks, esp compared to the jagyfest Pikmin 3 was.

It's hard to tell from 'off screen' footage but MK8 looks really clean as well, maybe someone who played it at Best Buy could weigh in on how MK8 and Mario 3D looked in person ?.

 

[plank]

I was actually surprised how how 'clean' W-101 looks, esp compared to the jagyfest Pikmin 3 was.

It's hard to tell from 'off screen' footage but MK8 looks really clean as well, maybe someone who played it at Best Buy could weigh in on how MK8 and Mario 3D looked in person ?.

Mario 3D world was very clean MK8 not so much however you barely noticed it cause it was 60fps.

 

[Apophis2036]

More impressive than Pikmin 3..? The diffuse mapping in Pikmin 3 is incredible.

Got The Wonderful 101 in the post today but am finishing Pikmin 3 before I give it a go. just got the pink flying Pikmin which are awesome even though they can't punch their way out of a paper bag lol

Definitely, W-101 is for me the first WiiU game that shows a clear leap over PS360. Pikmin 3 certainly had some impressive effects but you could tell it was originally a Wii game.

I played another 4 hours of W-101 yesterday and it keeps on getting more and more technically impressive with regards to the boss fights and how the system handles it all at 720p native, 60fps with absolutely no screen tearing.

When I'm going to new areas I'm also seeing more and more impressive looking textures and affects being used aswell. I'm noticing very impressive particle effects as well as the amazing looking fire / lighting / depth of field and something new from last night, reflective surfaces.

The game to me feels very similar to the God of War games on PS3, esp the scale of what's going on, on screen but obviously they are completely different from an art style perspective so it's hard to compare them but I would say technically it's just as impressive as a big budget GoW game from Sony Santa Monica which is amazing considering the kind of budget Platinum would have had to work with for this game.

I never in a million years expected this game to shine so much when it came to being technically impressive.

On the subject of resolution, I'm expecting every WiiU first party game to be 720p / 60fps and every third party game 720p / 30 fps, if some of them turn out to be 1080p then great but I do not believe the console was built with complex 3D graphics running at 1080p in mind.

 

[Apophis2036]

Mario 3D world was very clean MK8 not so much however you barely noticed it cause it was 60fps.

I would take 60fps over AA any day of the week, esp with regards to games like MK and Smash where 60fps is so important.

Although I game on PC I very rarely use AA as I run games at 1080p native, if Smash is 1080p shouldn't that eliminate most of the jaggies you would normally see at 720p ?.

If Smash is still jaggy at 1080p I would honestly just drop the resolution to 720p and go mad with the graphical details / effects !.

 

[guek]

Sorry if my other post came off a bit combative, what I meant by what this thread isn't was just that we all have opinions coming from various levels of tech knowledge and that everyone should stop feeling like they need to defend their opinions. Use Tech to discuss things or just say they are your opinions, refrain from using "facts" that don't exist as facts, which a lot of people tend to do in this thread (not that I've seen you do it but I figured enough people do it here that maybe they will realize it now) we can have a tech thread about Wii U because it is somewhat interesting as long as you understand the level of hardware in use. (while technically it might be 2009 tech) I think performance wise it falls closer to 2007 PCs. Likewise since GCN (in light of next gen consoles keeps getting thrown around) PS4 and XB1 seem like they are based on 2011 tech but their performance is closer to 2009 PCs.

About the tessellators, HD 4000 series used Gen 2 tessellator from ATI (this was capable of true tessellation and not simply surface tessellation like Xenos) when comparing this to GCN, yes it certainly will lack but that is to be expected, even if they were the same generation tessellator, Wii U has ~1/3rd the polygon count of PS4 and XB1 (which is 1.6B and 1.7B respectively) This should be all we really need to know to frame the picture of what Wii U's tessellator is capable of, HD 4000 also had tessellation demos which we can still easily find on Youtube to give us a pretty solid example of what Wii U's tessellator is capable of.

The last thing I really want to touch on is that as you know, Xenos is a programmable shader system, it can virtually do anything so any one effect could look just as good on 360 as it could on a high end PC, "in a vacuum" this is true, however Wii U's advance features such as SM4+ (which is virtually the same as SM5 as posted a few days ago by me) allow Wii U to do that same effect with less resources and again this is likely true with PS4/XB1. My point here is that there is nothing to really discuss when it comes to "Wii U is more capable than 360/PS3" OR "PS4/XB1 is more capable than Wii U" these are just factual statements that can easily be backed up by confirmed specs. Of course that doesn't stop Wii U from running 1970's space invaders, so a level of production value is needed to exceed the monstrous budgets some PS3/360 games saw, this is also true of XB1 and PS4 however and as we have seen in the early launch games shown for those consoles they also lack a "next gen" look to them at least in my opinion.

So yes while Wii U is lacking when compared to what we expected from next gen or even the stop gap we thought Wii U would be (the place XB1 has taken up) The most important advancements next gen was suppose to bring aren't coming and that is thank to neither competitor bringing the "goods". It's like a race that no one finished, as a "techie" next gen has fallen short and we will miss out on stuff that could of improved dev time and brought a new level of fidelity to our games. We will all get a step up no matter which of these 3 consoles you choose, they are just different levels. The absolute bare minimum (no screen tear thanks to vsync, more solid frame rates thanks to SM4+ and targeting a full resolution like 720p rather than the somewhat abundant 540p+ resolutions we found in many games) that is Wii U, XB1 will be a much more noticeable gap and PS4 even more so.

This is the kind of post TheD thinks he's writing when all he's doing is yelling with exclamation points. Thanks z0m

 

[Apophis2036]

The last thing I really want to touch on is that as you know, Xenos is a programmable shader system, it can virtually do anything so any one effect could look just as good on 360 as it could on a high end PC, "in a vacuum" this is true, however Wii U's advance features such as SM4+ (which is virtually the same as SM5 as posted a few days ago by me) allow Wii U to do that same effect with less resources and again this is likely true with PS4/XB1. My point here is that there is nothing to really discuss when it comes to "Wii U is more capable than 360/PS3" OR "PS4/XB1 is more capable than Wii U" these are just factual statements that can easily be backed up by confirmed specs. Of course that doesn't stop Wii U from running 1970's space invaders, so a level of production value is needed to exceed the monstrous budgets some PS3/360 games saw, this is also true of XB1 and PS4 however and as we have seen in the early launch games shown for those consoles they also lack a "next gen" look to them at least in my opinion.

So yes while Wii U is lacking when compared to what we expected from next gen or even the stop gap we thought Wii U would be (the place XB1 has taken up) The most important advancements next gen was suppose to bring aren't coming and that is thank to neither competitor bringing the "goods". It's like a race that no one finished, as a "techie" next gen has fallen short and we will miss out on stuff that could of improved dev time and brought a new level of fidelity to our games. We will all get a step up no matter which of these 3 consoles you choose, they are just different levels. The absolute bare minimum (no screen tear thanks to vsync, more solid frame rates thanks to SM4+ and targeting a full resolution like 720p rather than the somewhat abundant 540p+ resolutions we found in many games) that is Wii U, XB1 will be a much more noticeable gap and PS4 even more so.

Just out of interest, what would you have expected from PS4/XBO for them to be 'next gen', not talking specs, more with regards to what's happening, on screen ?.

I think Killzone, Infamous and Driveclub look amazing on PS4 and Ryse and Dead Rising 3 on XBO. These games are running at 1080p native and show off an impressive level of visual fidelity while displaying effects not possible on current gen.

Apart from the frame rates being 60fps I can't think of how much further they could have gone tbh, esp for the price point and power / heat envelope console have.

 

[Jrs3000]

Definitely, W-101 is for me the first WiiU game that shows a clear leap over PS360. Pikmin 3 certainly had some impressive effects but you could tell it was originally a Wii game.

I played another 4 hours of W-101 yesterday and it keeps on getting more and more technically impressive with regards to the boss fights and how the system handles it all at 720p native, 60fps with absolutely no screen tearing.

When I'm going to new areas I'm also seeing more and more impressive looking textures and affects being used aswell. I'm noticing very impressive particle effects as well as the amazing looking fire / lighting / depth of field and something new from last night, reflective surfaces.

The game to me feels very similar to the God of War games on PS3, esp the scale of what's going on, on screen but obviously they are completely different from an art style perspective so it's hard to compare them but I would say technically it's just as impressive as a big budget GoW game from Sony Santa Monica which is amazing considering the kind of budget Platinum would have had to work with for this game.

I never in a million years expected this game to shine so much when it came to being technically impressive.

On the subject of resolution, I'm expecting every WiiU first party game to be 720p / 60fps and every third party game 720p / 30 fps, if some of them turn out to be 1080p then great but I do not believe the console was built with complex 3D graphics running at 1080p in mind.

I've only played the demo but I'm with you I don't see this game possible on ps3/360. Up too 100 heroes and not even counting the number of enemies on screen you're fighting plus enviormental things going on screen while running at 60fps 720p native. Not a direct comparison but the only games with tons of characters on screen have been dead rising and dynasty warrior series but they do it at 30fps and I don't believe native 720p.

OT: You're lucky, I have a few more weeks till I get my copy.

 

[Riki]

Well this thread certainly got interesting.

 

[z0m3le]

Just out of interest, what would you have expected from PS4/XBO for them to be 'next gen', not talking specs, more with regards to what's happening, on screen ?.

I think Killzone, Infamous and Driveclub look amazing on PS4 and Ryse and Dead Rising 3 on XBO. These games are running at 1080p native and show off an impressive level of visual fidelity while displaying effects not possible on current gen.

Apart from the frame rates being 60fps I can't think of how much further they could have gone tbh, esp for the price point and power / heat envelope console have.

What I expected was Global Illumination in titles as open and massive as GTAV or Red Dead Redemption while pushing 1080p at 60fps (to have solid gameplay) heavy use of tessellation, wind simulation, realistic rain, cloth and pushing fidelity of textures and character models to UE 3.9's Samaritan demo.

As it is now, PS4 can't do GI in complex games, target renders are being used a lot right now for things as well (I heard that the quantum demo at e3 was run on target specs and not a PS4) we will see how close deep down gets to the original reveal but that was close to what I expected, though it was closed in spaces. XB1 will fall short of all these things and UE4 for PS4 doesn't even support all the features they had planned for the engine because PS4's performance falls short.

Since this is a Wii U thread, I'll state again, I originally expected Wii U to have XB1's specs, of course I expected XB1's specs to be 2TFLOPs to 2.5TFLOPs and use much faster CPUs. Even if Wii U had the original 600 GFLOPs, it would of held up strikingly well with XB1, you'd see games push into 1080p much more often and you would of seen every launch game run higher fidelity to the last gen consoles, that isn't what we got so I'm disappointed in all 3 next gen consoles, powerwise even more so in PS4 and XB1 because I expected them to actually give us a new level of fidelity only seen on the highest end PCs. Wii U was never going to give us that so it giving me the bare minimum just isn't as important to me since that system was never about getting the best graphics IMO.

 

[krizzx]

PM a mod, and don't make announcements about "reporting" people. It's not allowed.

Also, you have been overtly aggressive as well. You can't take any criticism.

You ignored StevieP's comments about the AA levels being absolutely unrealistic, which you said he needed to back up. That's just crazy.

You made a crazy comment saying that bigger fans are "more pathetic."... um? What? I don't even know where to start with that.

Also, the whole thing where you talked about the DX11 thing for Project Cars.

You wouldn't even link it. I ended up finding the wrong post (an older changelog) that showed a completely different story. You didn't have the common courtesy to post the link (hell, you say WE need to back up our claims. Not everyone sits in this thread like you. We can't all keep up with all the posts).

You then went on with saying this.

I don't bullshit around, you didn't even show any examples of this claim.

I admitted I was wrong, and even kept the original text of my post to SHOW I was wrong. I have no shame in admitting I was wrong, and what do you do? You ignore it.

You've been hypocritical the whole time man. The whole time. Don't dish it out if you can't take it. You've used being a graphic designer as some credential into making some sort of substantiated comments about the "detail" that's on Link. There is no need for that holier than thou mentality here. I've actually designed and created levels for mods in CS 1.6 and Source. I've dicked around with UE3 and made some good headway in CE3. I've made and used normal and UV maps... Hell, I have over 15 hours of computer sciences courses in college. I'm not going to rub that in peoples faces as some sort of credential. I'm wrong at times. A lot of times. But I'm not going to rub this in peoples faces. It's belittling and unnecessary.

But like I said at the start of this post, IF you feel like a mod needs to step in, PM one.

Here is the link.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showgroups.php
Find one online, PM them.

I have no problem taking "criticism". I do have problem with being falseley accused of doing things I have not done or having what I said distorted and represented as something I said. And I was not "announcing" that I was reporting anyone. I was asking how to do it because I do not know and I'm tired of all of these offtopic personal attacks being used in place of actual arguments as I've said in at least 4 posts over the past 2 days, I'm not the topic of this thread. I don't start insulting people when they don't accept what I say.

I have ignored no substantiated argument from anyone who is actually trying to have a reasonable discussion.

As for the bolded, if you do not know, as you claim, then why were so vocal as if you did? You made a claim that contradicted facts, repeatedly I might add, not a guess or a possibility, and I did link to the relevant material.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=76572611&postcount=7912 (gotno response)
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=76374335&postcount=7772 (another such post)
Or "YOUR" post

Found it, posted TWO MONTHS ago, and bullshit it was posted "several times". It was posted once by Disorienter.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=63015721#post63015721

You referred to it several times, but NEVER quoted it.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=74528651&postcount=7317

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=74528651&highlight=project+cars#post74528651

People come in here, make claims and I provide details or "rational" arugment to the contrary. Then they vanish with no response. You expect me to keep making all of this effort to find all of this info when it never amounts to anything?


I do not have to prove what has already been stated in the thread multiple times by many others to every single person in here stating what the hardware is capable or incapable of, especially when they have shown a tendency to ignore inconvenient facts in the past. There is a limit to how many times I can repost the exact same comments, exact same links, to the exact same claims only to have the person immediately jump to picking at something else or completely disregarding or writing off what I posted with no reasoning given.


And where have I been hypocritical and unable to "take what I dish out?" The entire argument yesterday started when one post tried to insult me "personally" for making posts that were mostly postive about the Wii U, and suggesting that Sonic Lost World vs Sonic Generations was a good comparison for measuring the GPU power difference. I called out his twisting of my words he apparently couldn't take what he dished out as he vanished(as always) when I pointed out the "exact" things that he did. Please show me this.



If your post history says that you are going to disregard what I have to say then why would I bother stating it? I am being logical, not hypocritical.

Attacking what I say is one thing, and I have no problem with it assuming you actually quote me properly or show exactly where I said what you claim. Attacking "me" is another. I'm tired of all these accusation but not a "single" quote, link or anything else to actually show where I supposedly did all of this terrible stuff I've been accused of doing.

I generally do not respond to insults. This is supposed to be a logical discussion about the GPU. I'm not here with an emotional investment. I'm here to learn and help where I can. "That" is why I am not going to argue about personal preferences.

Once again, show me a claim that someone has back up with multiple eye witness testimony, direct developer commentary

Show me where i have failed to back up anything I've stated that has already been stated in this thread before?

 

[fred]

I've only played the demo but I'm with you I don't see this game possible on ps3/360. Up too 100 heroes and not even counting the number of enemies on screen you're fighting plus enviormental things going on screen while running at 60fps 720p native. Not a direct comparison but the only games with tons of characters on screen have been dead rising and dynasty warrior series but they do it at 30fps and I don't believe native 720p.

OT: You're lucky, I have a few more weeks till I get my copy.

The thing I've been a little disappointed with in the demo are the shadows but then I've been spoilt by the lighting and shadows in Pikmin 3 - 103 pixel perfect shadows with a full squad plus enemies, plants etc. That, on top of the fantastic diffuse mapping, makes it the most technically impressive game I've played so far on the Wii U, although as I've already mentioned I haven't tried The Wonderful 101 yet. Really looking forward to it.

One thing I didn't notice before on previous off screen videos of Bayonetta 2 and have just seen on that 3 or 4 minute Gamescom video is that the 720p 60fps game is also being displayed on the GamePad at 60fps. And I'm not certain because it's been a while since I saw the E3 footage, but have they added more details to the buildings..?

And It's a shame that the video wasn't longer so that it contained footage of the Gamorrah boss fight so that we can see if they've made changes there too.

Anyone doubting that the Wii U is a step up from the PS3 and 360 needs to see the full playthrough of the demo from E3.

 

[Nikodemos]

XB1 will fall short of all these things and UE4 for PS4 doesn't even support all the features they had planned for the engine because PS4's performance falls short.

Didn't Epic downgrade the engine because it needed a bare minimum of a 7970 to run decently, and even then it was iffy in some parts? Meaning that people with mid-to-high end cards had no chance of running it?

As for 'p0wuhZ', remember that neither of the two intend to lose between $100 (MS) and $240 (Sony) per unit sold. They tried that last time and it sucked majorly for their bottom line.

 

[phosphor112]

I've sort of taken my leave of this thread since it has become very combative, but polygon wise. We are pretty sure that we know that Wii U produces 550 Million polygons per second, obviously this isn't something you are going to see in games though because realistically models just won't be made to take up the extra power and will only happen when tessellation is involved IMO. However, saying a game looks low poly, isn't really a knock against the hardware, since we know what that number can be. In my opinion what matters is the effects we see, the resolution and frame rate they run at and the overall complexity of the scene (lighting and what not, pushing less polygons will free up some performance, but it's not going to mean much when PS3 was only capable of 333 million polygons per second (even though Xenos was 500m)

I don't really see the point in trying to find secret sauce, the system is more capable than last gen systems, that is factual and while it has strengths and weaknesses, it's only measurable weakness I know of between the 360 and itself is the CPU not processing as many flops, though the GPU is capable of doing this work so the point is moot. Some might point out the ram, but afaik 360's ram is ~11GB/s up and 11GB/s down while Wii U's is 12.8GB/s up OR down, both use eDRAM to avoid bottlenecks, 360's eDRAM is 32GB/s to Xenos and 256GB/s to the ROPs. Wii U's eDRAM gives a higher bandwidth to Latte than 360's to Xenos, but probably less than the 256 to the ROPs. (afaik the minimum for Latte's eDRAM bandwidth is ~72GB/s and could be twice that)

The only interesting thing in this thread lately was the kill a watt power consumption is likely inaccurate, I've seen other threads on other sites use the Kill-a-watt meter to get the 33watts for Wii U, if it really is 38watts+ that does make quite a big difference, as it could leave plenty of room for more ALU performance, considering it's low clock though, this would have to come from more ALUs.

Great post.

 

[krizzx]

Didn't Epic downgrade the engine because it needed a bare minimum of a 7970 to run decently, and even then it was iffy in some parts? Meaning that people with mid-to-high end cards had no chance of running it?

As for 'p0wuhZ', remember that neither of the two intend to lose between $100 (MS) and $240 (Sony) per unit sold. They tried that last time and it sucked majorly for their bottom line.

This is correct to my recollection. I remember this brought a lot of ire from people who were praising the hardware like it was a "high end" PC like ATI said.

http://gamerant.com/xbox-one-ps4-pc-comparison/
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multim..._PlayStation_4_Is_Not_Just_a_High_End_PC.html


Something I've failed to get around to do to, *issues* over the past few days is the Bayonetta 1 comparison posted a while back.
http://www.lensoftruth.com/head2head-bayonetta/
I'm looking at the fidelity and performance of this game and I honestly wish to know why it cannot be stated that Bayonetta 2 is a clear example of power of the Wii U GPU and its position as a next gen GPU?

http://www.gamersyde.com/stream_bayonetta_2_e3_showfloor_full_gameplay-30289_en.html

What miscllenaious big budget FPS and Adenvture games are doing will never be as good of a comparison as two game of the same type made by the same dev in the same style but with such tremendous difference in performance. I doubt either game is pushing the max the console can do, but they should be running on their respective hardware to the same degree, ie using 60% or 70% of its power.

We have frame rate drops to sub 30FPS in the 360/PS3 versions with far less going on onscreen. Bayonetta 2 on the other hand is running at a solid 60 and with a larger casing of effects and animations and what is apparently a higher polygon count than what was demonstrated in Bayonneta 1. Let us not forget to add that Bayonetta 1 was developed on mature hardware and Bayonetta 2 is developed on hardware with known problems that isn't even a year old yet.Where does this place the GPU in relation. That is the only question I have been asking.

Then we have Sonic vs Sonic, and Smash vs Allstars, Kart racing vs Kart racing. How many comparisons is it going to require before we can definitively establish whether Latt's capabilities are or aren't a next generation/significantly ahead of the last gen?