i actually cringed when i read this.
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Lives and continues have no place in games post-SNES/Genesis
- Thread starter Odoul
- Start date
i actually cringed when i read this.
To be fair, I think the problem here is that what you're risking is your continued enjoyment. Dying and jumping back to a point significantly earlier than the problem area means you replay the interim content. Now, in the short term, fine : you might improve on your completion of that content, and take more resources into the troublesome area. But after a while, if you're really struggling on the boss, at that point the metrics have changed somewhat, and what's at jeopardy is avoiding having to replay something that is now tedious - you are risking your enjoyment of the next ten minutes of play. That's fundamentally undesirable from the point of view of game design.
That said, there is also an opposite problem - it's occasionally possible to blunder and scrape through the enemies prior to the boss, and then get completely creamed by the boss - because you haven't learnt the proper necessary skills from the earlier content. If there was a checkpoint immediately prior to the boss, you'd have to learn said skills from the boss encounter itself, and that may not be an environment conducive to picking up basic skills. I played through Devil May Cry - given my normal aptitude at action fighty games, I'm not entirely sure how, but I completed it - and I'm not sure I could have done so if I hadn't been forced through the learning motions of the earlier encounters.
It's a tough problem to solve. One idea I'd like - and I can't think of many games that do this - is to apportion checkpoints *based on performance*. If you do sufficiently well in the preamble, then you can (choose to) skip it in future wipes. If not, you'll have to play it again.
infinityBCRT
Member
I cringed so much that I traveled back in time and ranted about it
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=651859
daninthemix
Member
Multiple difficulty options, ranging from zero to unlimited lives.
Done. Everyone gets to pick their own challenge, and nobody gets to bitch.
Done. Everyone gets to pick their own challenge, and nobody gets to bitch.
Broder Salsa
Banned
I'm certainly not a fan. Will just make me pick an easier difficulty cause I truly hate going through the same parts of a game over and over again.
This is the best Junior post I've ever read. I agree with this so much.
Lives/Continues, silent protagonists, turned-base fights and so on all have their place in gaming. It baffles me that some want to do away completely with any of these.
Oh my god...
I hope you aren't save stating every 5 seconds of gameplay in platformers.
I cringed so much that I traveled back in time and ranted about it
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=651859
some of those responses in this thread are downright sad.
I'm currently finishing off a playthrough of HarmoKnight, and it pretty much does this. You'll always have five hearts at the start of the level, unless you completed the previous one with a greater number, in which case you'll carry that quantity forwards.
I don't know if Legends needs a life system but that game has WAY too many check points. Never breaking the pace is exactly the problem. You just kind of fart away deaths.
1. Lower the difficulty down to easy.
2. Get better at the game.
3. Play DmC it's much easier.
But it's easier.
Basically modern gaming in a nutshell.
Well if I was the OP I would have called the original title "I suck at Devil May Cry but I am going to blame it on the game."
Then again I am not that kind of person who starts blaming the game design for my shortcoming, unless the game design is broken.
Arc Christelle
Member
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
<3 Gaf lol
Im ashamed to admit that I finished nes ninja gaiden using save states :/ I know i will burn in hell for it. Didn't even feel good doing it.
Im ashamed to admit that I finished nes ninja gaiden using save states :/ I know i will burn in hell for it. Didn't even feel good doing it.
Aren't those games known to be REALLY REALLY tough though (and sometimes bullshitty tough?)? I can see where you're coming from with that. (I haven't played it though so I don't know what it's exactly like)
6-2 changes the previously established level restart rules from the earlier stages. That's a little broken imho.
First post nails it.
TheSpaceBetween
Member
I don't see how you can make a blanket post like that. It depends on how the game was designed. If you don't like that aspect of difficulty balance, don't play the game.
Why do you think that modern games are easier?
Try playing an easy modern game changing checkpoints/savegames with limited lives and some continue and let's see if you are able to finish it.
Checkpoints/savegames + unlimited retries(=lives) killed the difficulty imo.
I agree that dying at the boss and redo the entire level is extremely irritating though.
Try playing an easy modern game changing checkpoints/savegames with limited lives and some continue and let's see if you are able to finish it.
Checkpoints/savegames + unlimited retries(=lives) killed the difficulty imo.
I agree that dying at the boss and redo the entire level is extremely irritating though.
It's a hobby, and all hobbies require a bit of dedication.
Luckily games are numerous and varied, as they should be. Some companies make casual games for people like you, some make games like Dark Souls and Devil May Cry for people like me. If you don't have the time or the willingness to make the time you don't get to play certain games. Oh well.
MightyHedgehog
Member
Fuck that. I like that structure for a lot of experiences even if it doesn't work well for all of them and especially newer games that are more informed by the post-arcade designs. Variety, man.
Senor Kami
Banned
The whole point of some games is to be a kick in the balls. Some people get down like that. To each their own.
Hasn't lives been reimagined as a shared pool of rejnforcements for online games? Both various shooters and monster hunter use it in that way.
In single player games, where its not uncommon to have more than ten at a time (Mario) it's a bit pointless and just wastes time- I'd rather games just immediately restarted you at wherever the continue point is, not because I don't want to see 'game over' but because all I'm doing is pressing 'start' for ten seconds.
Where games are actually tough and want to teach the player how to play properly, like Donkey Kong Country Returns, Contra or Devil May Cry etc, I really don't have a problem with them at all. If you aren't good enough to get past a section with the resources you have, the earlier levels exist to teach you how to play better. Fail states are part of a game, rather than expecting to be able to 'beat' every game by hammering through everything badly with effectively infinite lives, which makes Contra just a matter of time rather than skill as learning the levels is a big part of it.
So, yeah, for me it depends on the game. Fast, hard action games that want to teach you their mechanics it's fine, easy games its a bit pointless.
In single player games, where its not uncommon to have more than ten at a time (Mario) it's a bit pointless and just wastes time- I'd rather games just immediately restarted you at wherever the continue point is, not because I don't want to see 'game over' but because all I'm doing is pressing 'start' for ten seconds.
Where games are actually tough and want to teach the player how to play properly, like Donkey Kong Country Returns, Contra or Devil May Cry etc, I really don't have a problem with them at all. If you aren't good enough to get past a section with the resources you have, the earlier levels exist to teach you how to play better. Fail states are part of a game, rather than expecting to be able to 'beat' every game by hammering through everything badly with effectively infinite lives, which makes Contra just a matter of time rather than skill as learning the levels is a big part of it.
So, yeah, for me it depends on the game. Fast, hard action games that want to teach you their mechanics it's fine, easy games its a bit pointless.
Storm Chamber
Banned
This is fantastic
Rizsparky
Member
I love how the hound doesnt even flinch.
OT, I agree there should be more checkpoints on regular difficulty, all the 'start again from the beginning' bullshit should be reserved for harder difficulties.
Well as you recall, in Super Meat Boy there were a chunk of increasingly difficult levels where you had to clear three stages in a row with only three lives. In fact, some of the hardest levels in the game had this caveat making them all the more difficult.
Naked Lunch
Member
If anything, lives and continues need to make their way back into game design. I miss the days of risking a nasty jump for that 1up.
SneakyStephan
Banned
Op please go play call of duty or ryse and leave real games alone.
And take BAlfredo with you
And take BAlfredo with you
lol!
dcx4610
Member
As someone who lived through the NES era to current with its limited lives and continues, I fully agree with OP.
I just don't have the time or patience to deal with punishment in games anymore. I like a good challenge but I don't want the game to end and have to start all over again if I die. Even starting a bit back is annoying.
Take something like the Uncharted series where it is very story driven. There's nothing worse than dying from a glitch or mistake and then having to replay the same thing over again with the same dialogue. I don't want to hear it again and it throws off the pacing. Just put me back to exactly where I left off FFS.
I just don't have the time or patience to deal with punishment in games anymore. I like a good challenge but I don't want the game to end and have to start all over again if I die. Even starting a bit back is annoying.
Take something like the Uncharted series where it is very story driven. There's nothing worse than dying from a glitch or mistake and then having to replay the same thing over again with the same dialogue. I don't want to hear it again and it throws off the pacing. Just put me back to exactly where I left off FFS.
A lot of people play games to experience novel things, not to master a system.
Exploding8
Member
Yes, lives and continues were only meant for arcades because it got the devs more money, and early games got away with it as a way to artificially add length to a game. Now though? Really no point except to make games more frustrating.
Really isn't as much of an issue now though because if you look at most games today very few of them have a life / continue system. Because devs are smart and got rid of it.
Thank you based devs.
Really isn't as much of an issue now though because if you look at most games today very few of them have a life / continue system. Because devs are smart and got rid of it.
Thank you based devs.
Vigilant Gambit
Member
Bayonetta is different from DMC. DMC was designed using old-school tropes from over 10 years ago; lives, continues, and so on. Bayonetta was designed for a more modern time: You get unlimited continues, but each one is worth a certain amount of negative points that are reflected on the mission clear screen. There are certain aspects of the game that you will never experience until you can clear it without dying, without getting hit, and so on.
The real difference is accessiblity. DMC demands a certain level of skill just to complete the game, while Bayonetta scales that demand to the desires of the player. If you don't care about Platinum-clearing a level, then you don't have to quit to the title menu every time you get hit during a fight. If all you want to do is see the credits, but you still want a challenging game, feel free to throw as many lives as you want at it until you see the credits. The gameplay difficulty is still there, but it's free of the frustration of repeating tasks you've already completed, because there are checkpoints before/after each fight.
And I think that's what the OP was referring to. The classic Lives/Continues system doesn't really have a place today. Even our most hardcore games today only use such systems to create risk vs reward.
Then they should play experience type games and leave the skill-based ones alone. There's room in the industry for everyone, but don't try to change what I like because you're not good enough or don't have the time.
Vigilant Gambit
Member
please use a different avatar. you're not worthy.
what about 1CC STGs to experience a new difficulty loop? i like games that impose these sorts of limitations because it (fairly) makes me get better as a player.
So why isn't the thread title "drawn-out plot sequences have no place in gaming"? Scrap those, drop someone straight back into the enjoyable action of 5 or 10 minutes before as a fail state, and it seems to me that the problem's solved.
radios shipping overview
Member
The cool thing about the game industry growing is that we have a bigger variety of gameplay styles to choose from. We all get to play something that matches up with the styles of gameplay we like.
You might think that finite lives and continues are being forced on you, but you're free to play something with checkpoints and infinite retries. God knows the AAA segment caters to this specifically, especially since the death of the big-budget skill-heavy 3D action game. I'd rather not have checkpoints or infinite retries (or cutscenes, or QTEs) forced on every game I play.
Personally, I like strict success conditions more than I like easy success with opportunities for high scores. There are plenty of games that give me that, and they're not intruding on anybody else's preferences.
You might think that finite lives and continues are being forced on you, but you're free to play something with checkpoints and infinite retries. God knows the AAA segment caters to this specifically, especially since the death of the big-budget skill-heavy 3D action game. I'd rather not have checkpoints or infinite retries (or cutscenes, or QTEs) forced on every game I play.
Personally, I like strict success conditions more than I like easy success with opportunities for high scores. There are plenty of games that give me that, and they're not intruding on anybody else's preferences.
Well it's as I implied before. If your game is truly, legitimately good and fun to play, then replaying already completed segments won't be tedious. It'll be fun. Because the game is good.
Those were the best parts of Super Meat Boy and the only sections of the game that provided true challenge. If the entire game was structured like that (somewhat more forgiving level design + lives system) it'd probably be one of my favorite games ever.
As it stands I got bored 60% of the way through and have no intention to finish the game, especially having already seen the rest of the game via speed runs.
Read a book. Or a visual novel, that works too.
shadowstar
Member
This is why I'm almost completely bored with modern single player experiences. There is little punishment for failure. Good thing rogue-likes and fighting games are still fun.
dcx4610
Member
I think the move to 3D and story-driven games really had the biggest impact. When you are playing a game for the story (most games these days), you don't want to be punished and sent far back into the game only to have to re-do the same things again. It would be like rewinding a movie back 30 minutes because you missed 1 minute of dialogue.
For 2D games, I feel totally different. Games on the NES and SNES, it was more about the gameplay and experience and less about the story. Those games with limited lives and continues made sense. Nowadays, it doesn't.
For 2D games, I feel totally different. Games on the NES and SNES, it was more about the gameplay and experience and less about the story. Those games with limited lives and continues made sense. Nowadays, it doesn't.
Disagree. Not everything that's interactive needs to be singularly focused and mechanically complex. I'm normally a gameplay-first type of guy, but Frog Fractions is one of my favorite games of all time just because of how great it was at delivering surprises and subverting my expectations. It never got very complicated or presented me with something to master, but the mechanics were still front and center and I was still engaged and playing the entire time.
It was a great experience. Short, and very different from my other favorite game of 2012 (Dark Souls: Prepare to Die Edition), but no less valid a use of the medium.
Vigilant Gambit
Member
Most console STG ports give the player infinite credits. If you want to see the credits, then credit-feed until you do. But every time you use a continue, your score is reset to 0, so you cannot be at all competitive when doing this.
In this way, STGs are actually more forgiving than games like Bayonetta, since the "checkpoint" lets you pick up from where you died rather than, for example, some particular point in the fight.
Go skateboarding. Or throw darts, that works too.
You can't always credit feed to get to the additional loops though. So it is restricting access to levels because of player ability...
*claps* couldn't have been a better first post.