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[Gotchaye]

I mean, if you're saying it doesn't, that a woman in a sketchy outfit is somehow different or worse than a man in one, you, are in fact, being sexist. Aren't you?
And I'd like to see where in Halo they put the shoe on the other foot, btw. There would be a stampede of dude bros tossing xboxs off a cliff, I imagine, lol.
So, what are we talking about exactly then?

What's the principle here? The thinking seems to be that formal equality, at least of a sort, is sufficient to render something not sexist. And/or that it's sexist to think that formal equality isn't what we should be going for.

But this is confused. I certainly don't mean to say that sexism in games is the moral equivalent of Jim Crow, but Jim Crow laws provide a very clear example of formal equality being grossly insufficient. A literacy test coupled with a grandfather clause treats blacks and whites exactly the same, in a sense. Regardless of your skin color, you can vote if you can pass a fiendishly difficult test or if your grandfather could vote. Jim Crow laws are consistent with perfect formal equality. But of course they're also horribly racist - these facially neutral laws actually impacted people differently depending on their race. Substantive equality is what we care about.

So, getting back to games, for substantive equality we care about what these depictions mean for real gamers. And it's very clear that a male character in a skimpy outfit is often funny. I haven't played the game, but the claim people have made is that male gamers playing through that part are unlikely to feel uncomfortable or excluded by the content in the way that many female gamers will tell you they feel about the formally similar reverse situation. So they wouldn't actually be the same thing.

It's also pretty plausible to me that the treatment of the characters won't even be formally similar. Cameras often have a tendency to be male gaze-y in a way that contributes to the problem.

 

[Callibretto]

You honestly can't pretend this is the same thing. I mean, if you're a robot that is just looking at it like "clothes are not on human, therefore sexualized", then okay, maybe you can pretend it's the same thing.

but it's not, because Raiden's entire existence, especially at that part of the game, is a gag, and plenty of the other examples of men in MGS being outwardly homosexual is a gag, which is a fairly common way for modern popular culture in Japan to go about approaching the topic of (male) homosexuality.

Even ignoring this, there is a key difference in introducing heroes like Snake as something other than sexualized. Even Raiden, being the pathetic character he was in MGS2, at least got an introduction like a typical Snake character, and now he's been made cool as a cyborg ninja. On the other hand, here's Kojima introducing a female character primarily as someone who "needs to be made more erotic" and is literally a sniper standing out in the open in her underwear. It's nonsense and it's shitty, and I don't understand how people are giving Kojima the benefit of the doubt on this after MGS4. Metal Gear is crazy, but calling this anything other than shameless pandering and a waste of a character is some leap.

there's nothing 'gag' about Raiden in MGS2, the Raiden backlash from MGS2 lead to Kojima turning him into gag character in MGS3, but in MGS2, Kojima is totally 100% serious about Raiden.

 

[Devilinthiscity]

How are they not both sexualized character designs? Quiet is probably the most scantly clad female character design i've seen in the MGS series but that type of fan service has always been prevalent in the series. While i understand the criticism, I find it a bit over exaggerated a bit. I don't remember people being in an uproar when they saw the Halo 4 Cortana design. To me she seems more sexualized than Quiet. But apparently i'm a "man baby" so what do i know right?

 

[ThroneZwei]

Kojima is well known for being equal. Listing of the games from the beginning-

MGS-
Half naked Liquid/Snake.
Vulcan Raven
Bondage Mantis
Sniper Wolf
Naked Johnny
Mantis controlling Meryl mocking snake, 'Don't you like girls?'(I put this one here because otherwise Meryl doesn't seem to be that sexualized)

Boy, he sure must be sexist against men if the first game is any evidence.

MGS2-
Fortune(Swimsuit because she was in the Navy)
Olga is actually a pretty strong female.
Snakes butt.
Raiden
Naked Raiden
Vamp with his suggestive hip swaying.
Vamp with his suggestive mind controlling.
Vamp is Bisexual.

And he makes fun of fat people. Fat man? Man, way to hurt some feelings Kojima.

MGS3-
The Boss. The baddest assest female character of any game. However at the end, she does open her vest, but it's to drive a point that she used to see herself as a woman.
Eva is sexualized. But she's also a spy, so the trope falls hand in hand.
Volgin is bisexual along with Raikov, who I believe is gay.

I think that's about it for that one.

MGS4-
The Beauty and the Beast squad, whilst they are all sexual when it comes down to it, before that they are shown to be quite crazy and quite covered up.
Meryl is shown to be a tough soldier
The FROGS albeit female, are shown wearing armor head to toe.
Naomi being very sexualized. Debatable if you can call this sexist.
Once again Vamp show's he's not afraid to tango.
Big Mama...is an old lady.
Mei Ling is a dressed Naval officer.

For MGS4, as far as sexuality goes, it's pretty balanced in that even though the BatB squad have sexual sides, not only is it countered by their beastly sides, but most of the female characters are shown to be strong and independent.

So now with MGSV everybody is an uproar because between MGS4 coming out and now, sexuality and feminism has risen up quite considerably in the game industry in that time span and suddenly it's an issue.

The ONLY issue I see with Kojima and sexuality, is that his bisexual/gay characters tend to be a villian.

Let's look at Volgin. He's a villain who happens to be bisexual. His Bisexuality isn't the main point or topic of the game, and he isn't written for that to be the main topic of the game.

Now, to the meat of this example. The point is, Quiet happens to be a sniper who's sexualized. Not a sexual object who happens to be a sniper. I'm pretty sure the main game isn't going to deal with her being an object(Maybe a tool to use in war), but her sexuality or why she dresses how she does, isn't going to be the main thing of the game. If people literally complain at this, it's literally to complain for the sake of complaining without any real proof or any sort of solid argument other then 'She dresses way too provocatively.' What, are we puritans all of a sudden?

Kojimas done this thing before in terms of gender and sex, except now people are in outrage over a character who happens to dress provocatively, JUST because that's the hot topic of the now. Granted Kojima did bring it to light by mentioning he wanted to make a sexualized character, but that doesn't mean Quiet as a character is going to be a fully sexual character just for the sake of being sexual.

Good lord I ranted. In closing, leave Kojima alone.

 

[Northeastmonk]

I agree with the Halo 4 Designer. The design of that woman is just plain pathetic. She is not dressed for what her role is.

She's in her own militia, who gives a ****? You think in the last 100 years women have cared for their attire in the military or in this case the arms race?

Are they literally going to sit out in the forest all day and wear those?

Yeah, Leave Kojima ALONE!

 

[LTWood12]

Wonder how many of the people speaking out against this regularly enjoy watching porn.

 

[Karkador]

there's nothing 'gag' about Raiden in MGS2, the Raiden backlash from MGS2 lead to Kojima turning him into gag character in MGS3, but in MGS2, Kojima is totally 100% serious about Raiden.

The entirety of MGS2 is basically a parody of MGS1, but that scene (where he's naked) is blatantly a gag. It even starts with the straw in the can obscuring your view of his groin (basically a small penis joke), and then the whole thing thereafter is meant to make him look pathetic. A lot of people citing "sexualized males in MGS" seem to not know what a sexualized male actually looks like, but hey, that's par for the course for these threads.

 

[tranciful]

The designer even decided to have her stand on her tippy toes -- as if to simulate high heels.

 

[ThroneZwei]

The entirety of MGS2 is basically a parody of MGS1, but that scene (where he's naked) is blatantly a gag. It even starts with the straw in the can obscuring your view of his groin (basically a small penis joke), and then the whole thing thereafter is meant to make him look pathetic. A lot of people citing "sexualized males in MGS" seem to not know what a sexualized male actually looks like, but hey, that's par for the course for these threads.

So just because you say it's supposed to be funny and a joke, it makes it so? That shit was embarrassing to play through when I was younger. Because somebody walks in, they're not going to immediately laugh that you're playing a naked man, especially without context.

 

[Derpstar]

The designer even decided to have her stand on her tippy toes -- as if to simulate high heels.

 

[Karkador]

Kojima is well known for being equal. Listing of the games from the beginning-

MGS-
Half naked Liquid/Snake.
Vulcan Raven
Bondage Mantis
Sniper Wolf
Naked Johnny
Mantis controlling Meryl mocking snake, 'Don't you like girls?'(I put this one here because otherwise Meryl doesn't seem to be that sexualized)

None of those male characters are sexualized, I promise you

So just because you say it's supposed to be funny and a joke, it makes it so? That shit was embarrassing to play through when I was younger. Because somebody walks in, they're not going to immediately laugh that you're playing a naked man, especially without context.

No, the material is pretty damn clear that it's a joke. Hence why people were so mad at MGS2 as a follow-up to MGS1.

 

[blamite]

Not Halo CE.

There's definitely Foehammer and the escape pod pilot off the top of my head, but I thought there were other female NPC marines as well? I admit I may be wrong about that though.

Still, Halo 4 doesn't have female marines and 2, 3, ODST, and Reach all do.

 

[v0yce]

MGSV is set in the middle of a real country during a conflict that actually happened there. And the series has long been committed to realistic weapons and soldier behavior. Although the series is lousy with supernatural elements, it also takes great pains to ground itself in the real world. It's not Final Fantasy.

Why do you think so many fans hated the over-the-top action movie cutscenes in The Twin Snakes?

Yeah people didn't like the back flips off missiles but they had no problem with the levitating, mind controlling, s&m guy that read your memory card and chatted you up about what games you've played.

MGS has grounds in reality, but it's way more committed to crazy over the top characters and does not care if anything it does "makes sense" in the real world.

 

[Gotchaye]

So just because you say it's supposed to be funny and a joke, it makes it so? That shit was embarrassing to play through when I was younger. Because somebody walks in, they're not going to immediately laugh that you're playing a naked man, especially without context.

It seems important that your concern was that someone would misunderstand what the game was doing, since they wouldn't have the context that apparently renders the scene not uh... I want to say T&A but I don't have a phrase for the male equivalent.

 

[Romars202129]

You honestly can't pretend this is the same thing. I mean, if you're a robot that is just looking at it like "clothes are not on human, therefore sexualized", then okay, maybe you can pretend it's the same thing.

but it's not, because Raiden's entire existence, especially at that part of the game, is a gag, and plenty of the other examples of men in MGS being outwardly homosexual is a gag, which is a fairly common way for modern popular culture in Japan to go about approaching the topic of (male) homosexuality.

Even ignoring this, there is a key difference in introducing heroes like Snake as something other than sexualized. Even Raiden, being the pathetic character he was in MGS2, at least got an introduction like a typical Snake character, and now he's been made cool as a cyborg ninja. On the other hand, here's Kojima introducing a female character primarily as someone who "needs to be made more erotic" and is literally a sniper standing out in the open in her underwear. It's nonsense and it's shitty, and I don't understand how people are giving Kojima the benefit of the doubt on this after MGS4. Metal Gear is crazy, but calling this anything other than shameless pandering and a waste of a character is some leap.

So, over sexualized man has to be 'a joke', or funny to you, right? While oversexualized woman is horrifying, or objectifying to you, correct?
I think that speaks for itself.
I'm not saying it's not a showing a small lack of taste, but it is most definitely equal rights sexualization. And just because you see every gay, a man thing in a Kojima game as a joke, doesn't make it so.
Ocelot is homosexual, for instance. It's not a joke, it's fairly obvious if you have any idea what you're looking for. [And, no, it's not that gag kiss scene.]
And let me remind you, he was the hero of mgs4! And is probably a hero in this game as well.
You try to paint this series as some misogynistic gay bashing series when it quite easilly has some of the best gay and female characters in all gaming.
Hmm.

 

[ThroneZwei]

None of those male characters are sexualized, I promise you

1. to make or become sexual or sexually aware
2. to give or acquire sexual associations

I dunno, I was certainly made aware of their sexes. Ocelot you just think, 'He's an old man' since he isn't half naked or covered in muscles, or unzip the shirt so you can see their breasts in full glory.

You're simply taking your definition of sexualized and trying to pass it off as fact, which is fine except for the fact part. Trust me, Mantis in bondage and leather...that's quite a fetish. Other than his gasmask, he didn't need any of that leather.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

My justification is Snake is going to have a skin tight costume that highlights his ass, and we're all going to have to spend hours looking at that. So, why don't we have a girl in a bikini for a few minutes to even out the ridiculous oversexualization of men Kojima so insists on forcing down all our throats?

Because their wasn't already ample amounts of boobs in the games, amirite? Regardless, this isn't actually helping the argument that Quiet isn't just blatant fanservice.

EDIT: Nobody's denying that there was some degree of sexualized men, although granted most of it was a gag. The problem is that Quiet is so stupidy over-the-top, even by the series' standards; last I checked, their aren't any seriously-presented MGS characters who run around in nothing but thongs.

 

[ThroneZwei]

It seems important that your concern was that someone would misunderstand what the game was doing, since they wouldn't have the context that apparently renders the scene not uh... I want to say T&A but I don't have a phrase for the male equivalent.

Context is important in alot of these cases. For example, if you were to show a photo of a high res Psycho Mantis(The low poly grade model doesn't do it justice, and I like picking on him), the first thing they would probably think is 'Wow he's creepy with a leather fetish'. Sniper Wolf, they might go 'Wow a sexy sniper'. Meryl from MGS4, and suddenly you have a neutral reaction because she isn't sexualized to show her feminine side, but to be more of a tomboy. Her hair is silly, yes, but that's another thing.

But...I dunno. Like, honestly, rewatching MGS2s cutscenes, this part strikes me as being most relevant here...from 2001.

Colonel: Raiden, you seem to think that our plan is one of censorship.
Raiden: Are you telling me it's not!?
Rose: You're being silly! What we propose to do is not to control content, but to create context.
Raiden: Create context?
Colonel: The digital society furthers human flaws and selectively rewards
development of convenient half-truths.
Just look at the strange juxtapositions of morality around you.

Right now we literally have juxtapositions of morality, all because of a character who has no context yet was deemed to be too sexual. Edit-I believe, pretty much, is that there's 2 sides arguing in this topic-That the character is TOO sexualized, and feel in the moral right, whilst those that argue against that saying her character isn't that sexualized given the content and context of the past MGS games feel like they're in the moral right. I just find the text from MGS2 fitting in this case.

 

[Karkador]

So, over sexualized man has to be 'a joke', or funny to you, right? While oversexualized woman is horrifying, or objectifying to you, correct?
I think that speaks for itself.
I'm not saying it's not a showing a small lack of taste, but it is most definitely equal rights sexualization. And just because you see every gay, a man thing in a Kojima game as a joke, doesn't make it so.
Ocelot is homosexual, for instance. It's not a joke, it's fairly obvious if you have any idea what you're looking for. [And, no, it's not that gag kiss scene.]
And let me remind you, he was the hero of mgs4! And is probably a hero in this game as well.
You try to paint this series as some misogynistic gay bashing series when it quite easilly has some of the best gay and female characters in all gaming.
Hmm.

err, what? you're not making sense and need to read again, because you're taking tremendous leaps based on things i haven't said

I dunno, I was certainly made aware of their sexes. Ocelot you just think, 'He's an old man' since he isn't half naked or covered in muscles, or unzip the shirt so you can see their breasts in full glory.

You're simply taking your definition of sexualized and trying to pass it off as fact, which is fine except for the fact part. Trust me, Mantis in bondage and leather...that's quite a fetish. Other than his gasmask, he didn't need any of that leather.

"being made aware of their sexes" is not what sexualization is. Also, just because someone is wearing a PS1 approximation of "bondage and leather" (if you can even tell what his outfit is supposed to be) doesn't mean it's sexualized.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Yeah people didn't like the back flips off missiles but they had no problem with the levitating, mind controlling, s&m guy that read your memory card and chatted you up about what games you've played.

MGS has grounds in reality, but it's way more committed to crazy over the top characters and does not care if anything it does "makes sense" in the real world.

I can't believe I'm going to attempt to rebut this as I absolutely don't think this is an argument worth having, but I think the difference is that Snake pulling the stunts he did in Twin Snakes not only isn't realistic, but it's implausible even within the game's fiction because it doesn't fit with Snake's abilities. Despite the crazy nonsense that happens elsewhere in the game, generally, Snake isn't depicted as being capable of any remarkable feats outside of being a phenomenal soldier by normal human standards. Tossing in superhuman stunts because they look cool don't really fit with his character, even if they might work for any of a number of other characters in the game's world.

 

[v0yce]

You honestly can't pretend this is the same thing. I mean, if you're a robot that is just looking at it like "clothes are not on human, therefore sexualized", then okay, maybe you can pretend it's the same thing.

but it's not, because Raiden's entire existence, especially at that part of the game, is a gag, and plenty of the other examples of men in MGS being outwardly homosexual is a gag, which is a fairly common way for modern popular culture in Japan to go about approaching the topic of (male) homosexuality.

Even ignoring this, there is a key difference in introducing heroes like Snake as something other than sexualized. Even Raiden, being the pathetic character he was in MGS2, at least got an introduction like a typical Snake character, and now he's been made cool as a cyborg ninja. On the other hand, here's Kojima introducing a female character primarily as someone who "needs to be made more erotic" and is literally a sniper standing out in the open in her underwear. It's nonsense and it's shitty, and I don't understand how people are giving Kojima the benefit of the doubt on this after MGS4. Metal Gear is crazy, but calling this anything other than shameless pandering and a waste of a character is some leap.

You're making some huge leaps based on very little. I really don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.

For one...

"In the game, Quiet is the main heroine."

and two...

"Of course, I was surprised to see Quiet's outfit at first. But, you know, it fits in the Metal Gear universe, I think. I don't think I'm allowed to say a lot about this, but, well, Mr. Kojima has his reasons for deciding why Quiet [is] wearing what she's wearing. Players will just have to look forward to that."

Seems like you're just writing the character off because the design is "sexy."

 

[Gazzawa]

A$$ a$$ a$$ a$$ a$$ a$$

 

[Romars202129]

None of those male characters are sexualized, I promise you



No, the material is pretty damn clear that it's a joke. Hence why people were so mad at MGS2 as a follow-up to MGS1.

This is the definition of hair splitting. You play the entirety of all those games with a man in a tight bodysuit. So, by your definition, the entirety of the series from beginning to end is a joke. Ergo, the oversexualized woman can be considered that way to, can't they?
You're just repressed dude.

 

[Karkador]

You're making some huge leaps based on very little. I really don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.

For one...



and two...



Seems like you're just writing the character off because the design is "sexy."

Normally, I'd agree with you, but that's why I said:

"I don't understand how people are giving Kojima the benefit of the doubt on this after MGS4"

Let's not pretend that any story justification for this is going to be worth holding our breaths for.

 

[ThroneZwei]

"being made aware of their sexes" is not what sexualization is. Also, just because someone is wearing a PS1 approximation of "bondage and leather" (if you can even tell what his outfit is supposed to be) doesn't mean it's sexualized.

But that's what sexualized means. That is literally what it means. The difference between MGS and Halo for instance, is that all the characters in the MGS series are sexualized one way or another, whilst in Halo Master Chief is quite neutral, alot of the supporting characters aren't sexualized as well.

This is why Blue Cortana is more ridiculous than Quiet-Because in the MGS world, every character is sexualized whether as eye candy, relationships, how they act, etc.

In the Halo world, nobody is sexualized so it's so odd and unsightly to see Cortana being voluptuous.

And no, you cannot say 'that's not what sexualization is' when that is literally what it means. To make it clearer on how I'm processing this, in MGS every character is sexualized to a certain extent-Whether they are shown to like men or woman, whether they are half naked and the game focuses on this either by scenes or comments, and whether they acknowledge this to each other.

In Halo, no character is sexualized, very little acknowledgment is brought to a character for being male or female, little to no characters serve as eye candy or acknowledge each other as being of the opposite sex/enjoying sexual relations with the opposite or same sex. Cortana is a sore thumb sticking out.

 

[Karkador]

This is the definition of hair splitting. You play the entirety of all those games with a man in a tight bodysuit. So, by your definition, the entirety of the series from beginning to end is a joke. Ergo, the oversexualized woman can be considered that way to, can't they?
You're just repressed dude.

hah, you know absolutely nothing about me, sir. please back off with such comments.

aside from that, the way you've been reasoning things in this thread is actually almost incomprehensible and the way you connect the dots between points i'm making looks like squiggles on a paper.

But that's what sexualized means. That is literally what it means. The difference between MGS and Halo for instance, is that all the characters in the MGS series are sexualized one way or another, whilst in Halo Master Chief is quite neutral, alot of the supporting characters aren't sexualized as well.

This is why Blue Cortana is more ridiculous than Quiet-Because in the MGS world, every character is sexualized whether as eye candy, relationships, how they act, etc.

In the Halo world, nobody is sexualized so it's so odd and unsightly to see Cortana being voluptuous.

And no, you cannot say 'that's not what sexualization is' when that is literally what it means. To make it clearer on how I'm processing this, in MGS every character is sexualized to a certain extent-Whether they are shown to like men or woman, whether they are half naked and the game focuses on this either by scenes or comments, and whether they acknowledge this to each other.

In Halo, no character is sexualized, very little acknowledgment is brought to a character for being male or female, little to no characters serve as eye candy or acknowledge each other as being of the opposite sex/enjoying sexual relations with the opposite or same sex. Cortana is a sore thumb sticking out.

I honestly don't care to compare Halo to MGS, as I've never played Halo and don't really care to comment on it.

I'm commenting on the assertion (made many times in various threads) that MGS men are sexualized, and the ensuing GIFs of some easter egg part of a MGS game where there is some kind of unexpected homoerotic exchange between male characters who are normally totally unsexualized and built for action (and clearly portrayed as hetero, as with Snake). I can't tell you how many times I've seen Japanese popular media portray gay sexuality like a joke, and stuff like nude Raiden and Big Boss/Kaz going on a 'date' is far more of that kind of joke than anything else. It's paraded out like a stereotype to have a laugh at, or it's meant to be pathetic and kind of emasculating (in the case of Raiden). You'd have to pretty much be completely ignorant of what male sexuality is to think that these comical depictions are being made to sexually arouse people. Especially the person in this thread saying Johnny knocked out cold and his clothes stolen is sexualized? Oh my god, give me a break.

Meanwhile, in the same universe, the girls are brought out in a very different way. From the moment they're introduced, they're sexualized, and anything else they can do is secondary. Paz seems to exist solely for some creepy loli complex shit, and the feature to look through her clothes during cutscenes absolutely has no equal with MGS men. Or they can be like the bosses in MGS4, where they start as things that you're not even sure are human, and then the last impression they leave is as a pointlessly sexualized woman writhing around on the floor. And now we have a character who, even before the game is out, is being introduced to the public as an ass in underwear and ratty stockings on twitter. What does she even do, what is she about? I'm not even sure if that's important, because Kojima himself feels the need to tell us, before anything else, that she needs to be more erotic. Does this sound like an interesting character to you so far? It sure doesn't to me.

 

[v0yce]

I can't believe I'm going to attempt to rebut this as I absolutely don't think this is an argument worth having, but I think the difference is that Snake pulling the stunts he did in Twin Snakes not only isn't realistic, but it's implausible even within the game's fiction because it doesn't fit with Snake's abilities. Despite the crazy nonsense that happens elsewhere in the game, generally, Snake isn't depicted as being capable of any remarkable feats outside of being a phenomenal soldier by normal human standards. Tossing in superhuman stunts because they look cool don't really fit with his character, even if they might work for any of a number of other characters in the game's world.

? I'm not sure how this rebuts anything I said.

MGS plays by the rules of its own world. (I think we agree here). So the argument that Quiet's clothing doesn't make sense IRL is pointless considering that the series has a history of dressing characters in swimsuits, rollerblades, nothing, cardboard boxes, etc, etc.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

But that's what sexualized means. That is literally what it means.

"Sexually aware" and "aware of one's sex" mean two different things, buddy. Somebody is sexually aware if they're capable of feeling sexual attraction, so going off of your definition every character ever is sexualized unless expressly stated to be asexual. That's literally what it means.

 

[Romars202129]

Because their wasn't already ample amounts of boobs in the games, amirite? Regardless, this isn't actually helping the argument that Quiet isn't just blatant fanservice.

EDIT: Nobody's denying that there was some degree of sexualized men, although granted most of it was a gag. The problem is that Quiet is so stupidy over-the-top; last I checked, their aren't any seriously-presented MGS characters who run around in nothing but thongs.

Well, than let me ask this, let's say it's all a joke, every half naked men, Raiden's entire existence, All Snake's ass form fitting suits, Vamp licking people's faces, whatever.
Let's pretend it's all a big joke. How does that change anything?
The idea is that women are being treated unequally correct? That's what sexism is, if I'm not mistaken?
Well, here's the thing. How do you do that when naked man = laughs and naked woman = objectification. How does Kojima make naked woman hilarious, in your oppinion?
So, I say, You're going to see just as much man stuff as you're going to see women stuff. Just because you're going to laugh, it negates it? Is man not being objectified here too, if it happens to be funny instead of sexy?
And also, if not, how sexualized do the men in this game have to get before you'll find it acceptable?
Do we need completly serious gay sex, gentleman, before this game fit's your criteria of equal sexualization? Geeze.

 

[akira28]

damn when did they make Cortana naked?

 

[Romars202129]

hah, you know absolutely nothing about me, sir. please back off with such comments.

aside from that, the way you've been reasoning things in this thread is actually almost incomprehensible and the way you connect the dots between points i'm making looks like squiggles on a paper.

Well, all I've heard out of you is naked men are funny and naked woman are offensive. I don't know what to say to that man, I'm sorry.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Well, than let me ask this, let's say it's all a joke, every half naked men, Raiden's entire existence, All Snake's ass form fitting suits, Vamp licking people's faces, whatever.
Let's pretend it's all a big joke. How does that change anything?
The idea is that women are being treated unequally correct? That's what sexism is, if I'm not mistaken?
Well, here's the thing. How do you do that when naked man = laughs and naked woman = objectification. How does Kojima make naked woman hilarious, in your oppinion?
So, I say, You're going to see just as much man stuff as you're going to see women stuff. Just because you're going to laugh, it negates it? Is man not being objectified here too, if it happens to be funny instead of sexy?
And also, if not, how sexualized do the men in this game have to get before you'll find it acceptable?
Do we need completly serious gay sex, gentleman, before this game fit's your criteria of equal sexualization? Geeze.

Gotchaye said it better than I could:

What's the principle here? The thinking seems to be that formal equality, at least of a sort, is sufficient to render something not sexist. And/or that it's sexist to think that formal equality isn't what we should be going for.

But this is confused. I certainly don't mean to say that sexism in games is the moral equivalent of Jim Crow, but Jim Crow laws provide a very clear example of formal equality being grossly insufficient. A literacy test coupled with a grandfather clause treats blacks and whites exactly the same, in a sense. Regardless of your skin color, you can vote if you can pass a fiendishly difficult test or if your grandfather could vote. Jim Crow laws are consistent with perfect formal equality. But of course they're also horribly racist - these facially neutral laws actually impacted people differently depending on their race. Substantive equality is what we care about.

So, getting back to games, for substantive equality we care about what these depictions mean for real gamers. And it's very clear that a male character in a skimpy outfit is often funny. I haven't played the game, but the claim people have made is that male gamers playing through that part are unlikely to feel uncomfortable or excluded by the content in the way that many female gamers will tell you they feel about the formally similar reverse situation. So they wouldn't actually be the same thing.

It's also pretty plausible to me that the treatment of the characters won't even be formally similar. Cameras often have a tendency to be male gaze-y in a way that contributes to the problem.

.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

And do we actually know this, or are people just making this up in random attempts at justification? Might as well say she's using a magic fish to grant herself invincibility.

Been speculated to hell and back for months now, but outside of the actual actress saying there is a reason for the way she looks we have this footage from the trailer to show her skin does have supernatural powers.

No confirmation on whether she can cover her whole body

 

[le.phat]

Kojima is well known for being equal. Listing of the games from the beginning-

MGS-
Half naked Liquid/Snake.
Vulcan Raven
Bondage Mantis
Sniper Wolf
Naked Johnny
Mantis controlling Meryl mocking snake, 'Don't you like girls?'(I put this one here because otherwise Meryl doesn't seem to be that sexualized)

Boy, he sure must be sexist against men if the first game is any evidence.

MGS2-
Fortune(Swimsuit because she was in the Navy)
Olga is actually a pretty strong female.
Snakes butt.
Raiden
Naked Raiden
Vamp with his suggestive hip swaying.
Vamp with his suggestive mind controlling.
Vamp is Bisexual.

And he makes fun of fat people. Fat man? Man, way to hurt some feelings Kojima.

MGS3-
The Boss. The baddest assest female character of any game. However at the end, she does open her vest, but it's to drive a point that she used to see herself as a woman.
Eva is sexualized. But she's also a spy, so the trope falls hand in hand.
Volgin is bisexual along with Raikov, who I believe is gay.

I think that's about it for that one.

MGS4-
The Beauty and the Beast squad, whilst they are all sexual when it comes down to it, before that they are shown to be quite crazy and quite covered up.
Meryl is shown to be a tough soldier
The FROGS albeit female, are shown wearing armor head to toe.
Naomi being very sexualized. Debatable if you can call this sexist.
Once again Vamp show's he's not afraid to tango.
Big Mama...is an old lady.
Mei Ling is a dressed Naval officer.

For MGS4, as far as sexuality goes, it's pretty balanced in that even though the BatB squad have sexual sides, not only is it countered by their beastly sides, but most of the female characters are shown to be strong and independent.

So now with MGSV everybody is an uproar because between MGS4 coming out and now, sexuality and feminism has risen up quite considerably in the game industry in that time span and suddenly it's an issue.

The ONLY issue I see with Kojima and sexuality, is that his bisexual/gay characters tend to be a villian.

Let's look at Volgin. He's a villain who happens to be bisexual. His Bisexuality isn't the main point or topic of the game, and he isn't written for that to be the main topic of the game.

Now, to the meat of this example. The point is, Quiet happens to be a sniper who's sexualized. Not a sexual object who happens to be a sniper. I'm pretty sure the main game isn't going to deal with her being an object(Maybe a tool to use in war), but her sexuality or why she dresses how she does, isn't going to be the main thing of the game. If people literally complain at this, it's literally to complain for the sake of complaining without any real proof or any sort of solid argument other then 'She dresses way too provocatively.' What, are we puritans all of a sudden?

Kojimas done this thing before in terms of gender and sex, except now people are in outrage over a character who happens to dress provocatively, JUST because that's the hot topic of the now. Granted Kojima did bring it to light by mentioning he wanted to make a sexualized character, but that doesn't mean Quiet as a character is going to be a fully sexual character just for the sake of being sexual.

Good lord I ranted. In closing, leave Kojima alone.

Great post. It's so weird to see people up in arms over this.no, she is not objectified. Yes, she dresses sexy. Are these so called gameers who take offence to this equally offended when watching a music video? A movie? Or even cartoons? Maybe its because i live in a very liberal society, but for an industry that offers some of the most gorey and violent entertainment, its hilarious to see something like this make a splash. Internet prudes, go home.

 

[blitzcloud]

Also doesn't speak :lol.

And what did he design exactly?

Does kojima visually design the characters? Damn, he's too pro.

HE's calling out the game director/producer/writer for the looks of a character

When the game he was involved in as a designer included a nude person in bodypaint.

 

[Romars202129]

Gotchaye said it better than I could:



.

I skipped responding to that for a reason. Cause it's just using subjectivety as an excuse. Yes, we react to a naked man differently than we do a naked woman. But that does not make the two inequal in art.
Not alone, it doesn't. Which seems to be his arguement.
That is sexism, in my oppinion.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

I wonder why we have such a big problem with this and not with every real life female celebrity sellng themselves as (basically) pornstars.

I mean, I dont have a problem with any of it ... But if "you" think its a big issue, theres way more examples reprsented by real, non CGI people.

 

[ixix]

I think you're unfairly conflating different kinds of criticism in the second category. I think there's a difference between pejorative statements meant to insult the creator or consumer (which I will agree we could all use less of) and criticism examining works through a broader cultural or historical context that can include normative critique ("This work contributes to a racist history of depicting blacks as lazy welfare moochers." "This work perpetuates old stereotypes about women being shrill and hysterical for no good reason." "This work presents sexual assault as a humorous act that's no big deal.") I will readily admit that some people on the anti-sexist-depictions side tend to adopt a tone that's not very endearing or welcoming to the opposition which simply leads to more discord, and for that reason I try to keep my own tone rather level, but I think it's unfair to lump the two together inherently and thereby characterize all normative critique as inherently hostile.

I wasn't issuing a blanket condemnation of normative statements regarding media, nor did I characterize all normative critique as hostile. I explicitly singled out normative statements that are pejorative using the statement that started this thread as an example. I could probably have included examples of non-pejorative normative statements with my examples, but such examples were mostly irrelevant to the post and I repeatedly specified that I was talking about the conflation of transgressive behavior with consumption of specific media. By my count I did so no fewer than three times, but it seems I should have clarified further. I'll cop to that.

I really like your comment that you try to keep your tone level while insinuating that I'm on a nebulous "pro-sexist-depictions side," by the way. Kudos.

In any case, I can't agree that Ellis's tweet has led this thread down a uniquely hostile path because, as I argued and which I think should be indisputable to anyone who has followed these threads closely, exactly the same reply argument about "artistic vision" is inevitably trotted out each and every time someone deigns to question the sexualization of a female character no matter what kind of rhetoric they choose to do it with. You can start a damn betting pool to the first appearance of "artistic vision" in any such thread. So while I certainly think the tweet was not the ideal way to start the conversation, I think it's rather irrelevant to the question of whether "artistic vision" is a meaningful rebuttal, and it feels more like you're just using the tweet as a convenient excuse and as a rhetorical bludgeon with which to cast all critics into the same mental space and thereby dismiss them all in the same broad brush.

I think the question of whether or not the tenor of a statement which initiates a thread changes the tone of the reaction is a good one, and it's one we can at least make an effort to quantify.

Let's take two relatively recent, relatively similar controversies which involved criticism of a then-unreleased video game, which elicited a response from the game's creator, and which differ primarily in whether or not the initial criticism was phrased as a pejorative or as a specifically bounded criticism. I'm going to use the Dragon's Crown (pejorative example) and Hotline Miami 2 (non-pejorative example) controversies as my examples and the number of threads and posts each received on GAF as a general benchmark for how contentious each issue was.

Let's counting!

Dragon's Crown
Dragon's Crown (Vanillaware PS3/PSV) Sorceress Trailer (link goes to page 9, where the controversy started): 1585 posts (after the posting of the Kotaku link in post 827)
G. Kamitani replies to J. Schreier's Kotaku article on Dragon's Crown (slightly NSFW): 979 posts (thread locked)
Women And Sexuality In Gaming (Kotaku/Dragon's Crown Thoughts And More): 573 posts
Jimquisition: Dragon's Frown: 994 posts
Gearbox Artist trashes Dragon’s Crown art style: 1338 posts

Total number of Dragon's Crown threads: 5
Total number of Dragon's Crown posts: 5469
Average number of posts per Dragon's Crown thread (rounded up): 1094

Hotline Miami 2
Hotline Miami 2's implied rape scene probes limits of player morality; authors react: 1292 posts (thread locked)
Hotline Miami 2: Film scene cut from demo, devs may scrap it, mea culpa expressed.: 438 posts (though it's still moving slowly)

Total number of Hotline Miami 2 threads: 2
Total number of Hotline Miami 2 posts: 1730
Average number of posts per Hotline Miami 2 thread (rounded up): 865

What do these numbers tell us?
Bupkis, really, though they were fun to compile. Math's great! Stay in school, everybody!

So this is the crux, I suppose. I don't have much to go on because you're simply asserting a priori that any of the aspects being criticized are entirely harmless, and you don't seem to willing to entertain the suggestion that creators' works can have a larger amalgamated effect on culture and societal attitudes at large.

But I made no assertion that the aspects being criticized are harmless. I just said that allegations of harm need to have substantiation. And I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I'm unwilling to entertain the idea that there can be aggregate effects of media beyond those of individual works. I mean, I posted this earlier:

"Quiet's design is consistent with a trend of female characters in video games being portrayed in a way that maximizes sexual appeal even if said appeal is incongruous with the setting of the game, and this trend can be marginalizing to women who play video games."

And now that I look, I actually posted it in direct response to you.

You are literally operating on the assumption that I said the exact opposite of what I actually said, and the entire rest of this paragraph is predicated on that assumption.

In short, though, I do not accept the idea that all art, or all creative works that purport to be art, is inherently worthy of immunity from criticism, no matter how much you might bristle as the suggestion that artists have some small degree of social responsibility.

I will draw your attention to the very post that you are quoting:

Criticism is fine and dandy, and is an important part of the creative process for many people in artistic fields. It's also the form that discourse about video games generally takes on GAF, at least in the threads that I enjoy participating in.

You have interpreted a statement that criticism is fine and dandy as a statement that criticism is inherently unacceptable, and I am not sure what else I can say in response to that.

I don't think that this is really a very productive conversation when it reaches a point where I'm just quoting myself saying the exact opposite of what you are claiming I said, so I'm just going to stop here.

 

[Neuro]

Its a game guys not a war simulation, recently I saw a Ryse documentary where they showed what actual Roman soldiers used to wear and showed what they would look like with embellishments and fancy swords

I really dont see the point if Quiet being sexed up or not, I assume its a part of her personality a devil may care attitude or something. As long as she can pull it off, I think it works for the best...

Have we all forgotten about BloodRayne:

Giant Citizen Kabuto

Julie Strain

 

[natkingcoleslaw]

Can i call out the Halo 4 developers for making the worst Halo game in existence and turning Cortana into a pathetically feeble whiny gigantic titted wank fantasy?

Yes you can. What a douchebag, this guy is!

 

[encephalon]

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Exactly. The series has always been a balance of the absolutely surreal and some fairly realistic window dressing. The problem with Twin Snakes was that it made Snake seem more like one of the supernatural bosses, instead of a badass normal dude who's so good at what he does that he can go toe to toe with them.

I've played MGS, thanks though. Quiet's costume has nothing to do with the fantasy elements interjected in the series.

 

[mr teaspoon]

1) As I told someone else this, it all depends on the type of games you play. For someone like me who plays a lot of fighting games I'm not seeing this huge lack of representation of women, animals, or men. There's many different personalities, races, and cultures in my preferred genre. You're making it sound like nearly every character is wearing skimpy clothes but I'm not seeing that when I hear about these big and popular games from other genres. I just looked up the top 10 most popular games on 360 right now and Killer Is Dead is the only game that fits your agenda. Let's not act like women don't have breast or don't show cleavage too.

You're mixing a lot of unrelated stuff in there, I feel. We're not talking about men, animals, personalities, races or cultures. We're talking about overly sexualized women. We agree that games are getting better in this regard (all things being relative, of course), our disagreement seems to be over whether characters like the one in the OP fall into that category.

2) I'm not "claiming" to be concerned about it. There's OBVIOUSLY a problem with this in America and it's backwards thinking on so many levels. I won't go into details though.

Stop twisting my words. The quote I was responding to:

You know what? I think developers should dress all female characters so they're accurately represented (fully covered shirts, no tight pants etc) and make them all strong and not feminine at all to avoid all of this. We need to make it realistic so no cleavage, skirts, shorts, or dresses are allowed. That sounds like the proper response to this movement. We just have to remember not to respond to any of the violence and gore.

I trust that any fair minded person would read that and agree that you were (either deliberately or not) mischaracterizing my argument, and then trying to hold up the violence problem as a way of deflecting this entire discussion.

Are these so called gameers who take offence to this equally offended when watching a music video? A movie? Or even cartoons? Maybe its because i live in a very liberal society, but for an industry that offers some of the most gorey and violent entertainment, its hilarious to see something like this make a splash. Internet prudes, go home.

Ugh, "so called gamers"? Do you really want to go there, dude?

And you're missing the point entirely if you think this is in any way a fear of sexuality or some sort of puritanical offense.

 

[CadetMahoney]

to summize this thread:

cortana > mgs women

 

[blitzcloud]

No. That's taking feedback into account.

Yes, but bear with me for a second.

If 30000 people feel positive about a design and 3000 people feel negative, the voices of negativity will be heard enough despite being a small percentage. Also, those who received the design as good or simply didn't have a problem will most likely adapt to the redesign, making them more tolerant to changes than the "feedback" crowd.

So after all, intolerant people force their views on tolerant people.

 

[george_us]

If you are literally designing a character, for fiction, from scratch, why wouldnt you lean the most towards the most aesthetically pleasing? Especially in realms of complete and total fantasy?

Sure, when you want to make something like ultra real life mundane office work sim, you then dont have tits and ass as the showpieces.

The main problem I have with this is its always these really insecure dudes peddling this outrage shit. Its anecdotal, but my girlfriend loves big booty big boob characters. She loves playing Dragon's Crown and playing as Amazon.

All these accusations of sexism and shit would hold water if these girls were in these games solely as pole dancers or whatever, but theyre often highly skilled characters with their own powerful role to play in the story. That theyre aesthetically pleasing isnt some slight against all women everywhere because of some imagined social insecurity brought on solely by videogame characters.

With Battlefield guy jumping on the bandwagoning, at this point this shit is seeming more and more like cyber bullying and its almost always against Japan. It has to stop before it really begins to make the western industry appear to be hugely intolerant of other cultures and to be blunt, xenophobic and racist.

Post of the thread right here. It definitely feels like there's some strange attack on Japanese games right now, for whatever reason.

 

[Romars202129]

to summize this thread:

cortana > mgs women

I just played Halo for the first time. The funniest thing about this, to me, is Cortana is treated as Master Chief's love interest in that game basically.
How's that for man child bait?

 

[encephalon]

Real world limitations did nothing to rule out things like supernatural powers, superhumans created through nanomachines, cyborgs, or giant robots in its universe. Applying the rules of real life to something like MGS1, a situation like surviving to take out an M1 tank with just grenades isn't particularly realistic either.

Because relative to the rest of the cast, Solid Snake was more "grounded" in his actions in the original MGS1, whereas everyone else was more over-the-top. By TTS, there was no difference.

I'll concede that it wasn't much of a rebuttal, but it was more of a moment of irony. Admittedly, the issue isn't really realism. It's just distracting and obnoxious.

You honestly can't pretend this is the same thing. I mean, if you're a robot that is just looking at it like "clothes are not on human, therefore sexualized", then okay, maybe you can pretend it's the same thing.

but it's not, because Raiden's entire existence, especially at that part of the game, is a gag, and plenty of the other examples of men in MGS being outwardly homosexual is a gag, which is a fairly common way for modern popular culture in Japan to go about approaching the topic of (male) homosexuality.

A lot of people citing "sexualized males in MGS" seem to not know what a sexualized male actually looks like, but hey, that's par for the course for these threads.

Yes, yes, yes, exactly.

 

[Extollere]

If you are literally designing a character, for fiction, from scratch, why wouldnt you lean the most towards the most aesthetically pleasing? Especially in realms of complete and total fantasy?

Sure, when you want to make something like ultra real life mundane office work sim, you then dont have tits and ass as the showpieces.

The main problem I have with this is its always these really insecure dudes peddling this outrage shit. Its anecdotal, but my girlfriend loves big booty big boob characters. She loves playing Dragon's Crown and playing as Amazon.

All these accusations of sexism and shit would hold water if these girls were in these games solely as pole dancers or whatever, but theyre often highly skilled characters with their own powerful role to play in the story. That theyre aesthetically pleasing isnt some slight against all women everywhere because of some imagined social insecurity brought on solely by videogame characters.

With Battlefield guy jumping on the bandwagoning, at this point this shit is seeming more and more like cyber bullying and its almost always against Japan. It has to stop before it really begins to make the western industry appear to be hugely intolerant of other cultures and to be blunt, xenophobic and racist.

Same, brah. My wife has been playing Sorceress since day 1. I remember when the game came out, I asked her what she thought about it as a woman - if she thought the designs were sexist. She said hell no, and that it made her feel bad-ass to play as a chick with breasts that big. Go figure.

 

[polyh3dron]

A lot of people citing "sexualized males in MGS" seem to not know what a sexualized male actually looks like, but hey, that's par for the course for these threads.

Yes, yes, yes, exactly.

Raiden was a sexualized male in MGS2. Kojima even admitted as much. The reason the effeminate looking Raiden was created and was the new protagonist in the series was to pander to females. His raison d'être was to tap into the success of Bishoujo characters in Japan.

Same, brah. My wife has been playing Sorceress since day 1. I remember when the game came out, I asked her what she thought about it as a woman - if she thought the designs were sexist. She said hell no, and that it made her feel bad-ass to play as a chick with breasts that big. Go figure.

Would you say she saw it as a Female Power Fantasy?

 

[Romars202129]

Yes, yes, yes, exactly.

Why don't you explain to all us idiots what needs to happen to a naked man before he can be considered = to a naked woman in terms of sexualization?
And let's ignore the fact that we're considering the two unequal at the start in our search for equality, that'll just get confusing...