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[Radec]

What the hell is going on in this thread???

:lol

 

[Scrabble]

Raiden was a sexualized male in MGS2. Kojima even admitted as much. His whole reason for existence was to tap into the success of Bishoujo characters in Japan.

Would you say she saw it as a Female Power Fantasy?

I don't know why this concept has always been so foreign to people. Do people honestly think only males feel empowered? A female model who confidently flaunts her sexuality most definitely has just as much a sense of empowerment as any muscle bound dude, and yet society want's to make that women feel bad by "oh well your just being objectified and pandering, you need to quit expressing your femininity." yet society rewards dudes who do exactly the same as "look how empowering, healthy, and fit he is."

 

[madmackem]

When people say a half naked or naked man isnt the same as a half naked or naked woman it kind of spits in the face of this whole argument right up front as thats the biggest issue why aint they equal?.

 

[polyh3dron]

I don't know why this concept has always been so foreign to people. Do people honestly think only males feel empowered? A female model who confidently flaunts her sexuality most definitely has just as much a sense of empowerment as any muscle bound dude, and yet society want's to make that women feel bad by "oh well your just being objectified and pandering, you need to quit expressing your femininity." yet society rewards dudes who do exactly the same as "look how empowering, healthy, and fit he is."

You've just described the difference between Sex-Positive Feminism and the other kind which people like the Tropes vs Women person subscribe to.

 

[Rickenslacker]

If people think the 343 guy is being a hypocrite, fine, that's a valid opinion. Even if the guy is being hypocritical, I don't think it detracts from his point.

Worth pointing out, though, is that Cortana is the only female character in the Halo series that over-sexualization could even be argued about.

[Kat from Reach]

Lookit that. Armored up, just like the guys. No gratuitous gaps in the armor to accentuate T&A.

Ditto for the female Marines.

It's funny that you should bring up Kat, because prior to Reach in various art and animation the female Spartans were represented as indistinguishable from males while armoured. Even in Halo 3 the gender option would only apply to player sounds while your character model would stay the same.

In Reach they changed that and made a physical distinction between the two, notably giving the females an overall thinner frame, wider hips, and a more pronounced butt.

 

[george_us]

This is, again, completely fine, but we then need to guard against turning around and demanding video games be taken seriously as deep and sophisticated works of art. This is a natural impulse for a lot of people -- not many people like to admit that they're simply engaging in escapist fluff. I'm always drawn back to this article from the Onion:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/towtruck-driver-has-great-idea-for-towtruck-movie,1458/

The core joke of the article, of course, is that everyone thinks that whatever they do is interesting, complex, and compelling. Look at how seriously some sports fans take their preferred sports, as another example. You may personally not struggle with this, but fairly evidently a lot of people desperately want video games to be taken seriously -- and not just video games generally, but specifically the types of games they happen to personally enjoy.

This argument is ridiculous. Why does a female sniper in a bikini in Metal Gear somehow represent the entire industry? How does it somehow erase all of the artistic progress video games as a whole the past decade? It doesn't. This isn't the 80s and 90s anymore; video games have come too far to merely be pigeon holed as "Boys entertainment".

Film hasn't lost their artistic merit despite movies like Transformers, Star Trek, and Man of Steel being nothing more than sweet CG showpieces. Music hasn't lost its artistic merit despite the fact that most mainstream music is utter garbage. Photography hasn't lost its artistic merit even though I can look up photos of Sasha Grey getting double and triple penetrated. Why do video games get pigeon hold the same way?

Again, the gaming industry has matured enough to where AAA should be treated like Hollywood blockbusters (as much as it pains me to admit it) rather than flag bearers of artistic creativity. We've got titles like Journey, Flower, Heavy Rain (I'm not too crazy about it but it's undeniable the game tried to be something more than another mindless AAA title), The Last of Us, and countless others I'm missing, not to mention a shitload of indie titles, that at least strive to be more than the average boob filled 'splosion fest.

Personally it feels the industry is the nerdy cool trying to fit in with the cool kids, only he doesn't realize he's already pretty cool. Like I said earlier, movies have been pumping out soulless trash for years yet no one wants to take away its artistic merit badge? Why are videogames being held to a higher standard here?

 

[Extollere]

Would you say she saw it as a Female Power Fantasy?

Seems like it, but who knows... my wife loves porn as much as I do since I got her into watching it a long time ago, so she's already as brainwashed as I am.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Yes, but bear with me for a second.

If 30000 people feel positive about a design and 3000 people feel negative, the voices of negativity will be heard enough despite being a small percentage. Also, those who received the design as good or simply didn't have a problem will most likely adapt to the redesign, making them more tolerant to changes than the "feedback" crowd.

So after all, intolerant people force their views on tolerant people.

I think developers who gather input on the web probably take that into account, or at least should. Regardless, it's far from being the "thought police".

 

[encephalon]

Raiden was a sexualized male in MGS2. Kojima even admitted as much. The reason the effeminate looking Raiden was created and was the new protagonist in the series was to pander to females. His raison d'être was to tap into the success of Bishoujo characters in Japan.

Why don't you explain to all us idiots what needs to happen to a naked man before he can be considered = to a naked woman in terms of sexualization?
And let's ignore the fact that we're considering the two unequal at the start in our search for equality, that'll just get confusing...

If you want to claim that a character being designed to considered merely "attractive" to a gender is a form of being "sexualized," then I'll give you that. That doesn't mean that Raiden and Quiet are on equal ground, however.

Intent. Raiden running around naked covering himself isn't meant to be sexy, it's meant to be funny. How "sexualized" a character isn't dependent on how much or how little clothes a character is wearing, in fact. It has to do with how they're presented. Nudity is not inherently sexual.

 

[MilkBeard]

what can I say. At least Kojima was honest about it?

I know this term got thrown around a lot during the whole Dragon's Crown controversy, but I'm actually getting pretty sick of the 'White Knighting' that a lot of guys do, trying to impose an image of being higher than others when it comes to the portrayal of female characters. Funnily enough, I think The Sorceress annoyed me because the game has a cartoon aesthetic. But Metal Gear is known for its weirdness, and it is clearly an adult-oriented game series so I don't really understand the problem. I mean, Kojima made us watch Raiden do nude flips, so, you know...

 

[Romars202129]

If you want to claim that a character being designed to considered merely "attractive" to a gender is a form of being "sexualized," then I'll give you that. That doesn't mean that Raiden and Quiet are on equal ground, however.

Intent. Raiden running around naked covering himself isn't meant to be sexy, it's meant to be funny. How "sexualized" a character isn't dependent on how much or how little clothes a character is wearing, in fact. It has to do with how they're presented. Nudity is not inherently sexual.

Imagine Raiden was a woman, and nothing else in the game changed except that. Now, is it funny still, or is it now in fact sexual?
Yeah.
BTW, I don't why everyone just writes this scene off as a joke. If that's what it is, I have to say it's a pretty bad one. I took this scene as Kojima challenging sexual hang ups, by forcing me, a member of typical hetero gamer society, to watch and interact with a naked man for almost an hour.
But I suppose if you didn't actually play it, what else are you going to think?

 

[FlyFaster]

Love the people arguing the point that her clothing isn't "realistic" enough for the desert.

lol it's a fictional video game!

Have you played any Metal Gear? Fantastical shit happens all the time. A sexy girl, is just that, a sexy girl.



What's funny is that Kojima will probably give her more depth and character then anyone else.

 

[polyh3dron]

If you want to claim that a character being designed to considered merely "attractive" to a gender is a form of being "sexualized," then I'll give you that. That doesn't mean that Raiden and Quiet are on equal ground, however.

Intent. Raiden running around naked covering himself isn't meant to be sexy, it's meant to be funny. How "sexualized" a character isn't dependent on how much or how little clothes a character is wearing, in fact. It has to do with how they're presented. Nudity is not inherently sexual.

Sorry I meant to say Bishonen, not Bishoujo.. But yeah look at the Wikipedia entry for Raiden if you don't believe me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raiden_(Metal_Gear)

Kojima received much fan mail; one letter was from a girl who stated she did not want to play a game with an old man. He took this into consideration; he and his team designed a character more appealing to women, resulting in Raiden's appearance.[7] Designer Yoji Shinkawa noted that he and the other character designers took a great deal of inspiration for Raiden's appearance from the bishōnen archetype.[7] Because Raiden was a new character the staff designed him carefully, giving him white hair to symbolize his introduction. Shinkawa further noted that Raiden ended up with an overall feminine appearance.[5] His outfit (the Skull Suit) was difficult to design until the staff decided on a "bonelike" concept. Shinkawa wanted to make Raiden sexually appealing, emphasizing the tightness of his clothing.[8]

I recall reading a few interviews with Kojima back when MGS2 came out that echoed this. That was why I said Kojima admitted to sexualizing the Raiden character. I didn't just pull that out of my ass like you are insinuating and I think that somehow you didn't actually read my entire post before responding to it.

EDIT: And apparently you've never even played MGS2, so how are you even qualified to argue whether Raiden is sexualized or not?

 

[grandjedi6]

The worst part of the Cortana design isn't that she is a realistic naked female. Its that she's purposely designed with lines to draw the eye to the nipple and vulva regions. And those lines weren't even on the previous Cortana incarnations!

 

[faceless007]

I wasn't issuing a blanket condemnation of normative statements regarding media, nor did I characterize all normative critique as hostile. I explicitly singled out normative statements that are pejorative using the statement that started this thread as an example. I could probably have included examples of non-pejorative normative statements with my examples, but such examples were mostly irrelevant to the post and I repeatedly specified that I was talking about the conflation of transgressive behavior with consumption of specific media. By my count I did so no fewer than three times, but it seems I should have clarified further. I'll cop to that.

No, I understood that fine. I just don't agree that singling out pejorative statements like Ellis's tweet is useful or explanatory because, once again, I have found exactly the same lines of argument I am replying to in threads that did not start from pejorative statements. Your hypothesis (I think?) that the use of such arguments is motivated largely in response to the use of pejoratives is simply not borne out in my experience, and I provided a recent counter-example. So I don't know why you insist on separating the two. It isn't relevant to my argument.

I really like your comment that you try to keep your tone level while insinuating that I'm on a nebulous "pro-sexist-depictions side," by the way. Kudos.

Good gravy. I honestly intended no such thing and I wasn't even referring to you with that. Feel free to mentally replace that word with whatever you think is more accurate.

But I made no assertion that the aspects being criticized are harmless. I just said that allegations of harm need to have substantiation. And I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I'm unwilling to entertain the idea that there can be aggregate effects of media beyond those of individual works. I mean, I posted this earlier:

And now that I look, I actually posted it in direct response to you.

You are literally operating on the assumption that I said the exact opposite of what I actually said, and the entire rest of this paragraph is predicated on that assumption.

That statement is in quotation marks and was presented as a hypothetical first post in a thread about Quiet's design. If it was meant to be a statement of your sincere belief, I'm not sure I could have been expected to know that. I took it solely as a hypothetical "If David had said [X], things might have gone differently." Whether you actually held [X] to be true, I had no way of knowing. In fact, given your later statements, I still don't really see how you could hold that quote to be true. (See below.)

I will draw your attention to the very post that you are quoting:

You have interpreted a statement that criticism is fine and dandy as a statement that criticism is inherently unacceptable, and I am not sure what else I can say in response to that.

K, no. I did no such thing. You switching quotes around like this is rather frustrating. I interpreted this statement:

"The latter is a statement that its very existence is hurtful to segments of society, and implies that as a result of this we would be better served on the whole for it not to exist. For these reasons I feel that both of these forms of statement are de facto censorious, and furthermore that both are inherently aggressive positions and should be responded to as such."​

to be a condemnation of criticism. Granted, it was too broad of me to characterize it as a condemnation of all criticism. Nevertheless, you certainly did describe certain forms of criticism as "de facto censorious." And I do not agree with that descriptor, nor I see any meaningful difference between that type of criticism and the type you say is acceptable.

So while I admit I misread some parts of your post, of the two misreadings you are accusing me of, one I took to be a hypothetical, and the other is you substituting an entirely different remark from another part of your post and acting as if I were responding to that even though I wasn't.

But now I'm doubly confused. You say above that you were actually endorsing the position that the trend of sexualized female characters can have marginalizing effects, and yet below that you claimed that criticism based on causative arguments that such works do harm to society (of which that would surely qualify) are censorious and should be fought.

What gives? I'm not trying to be clever here; I honestly don't see how you can reconcile these viewpoints. Is it acceptable to criticize negative depictions in media for the marginalizing effects they have at large or not?

 

[KugelBlitz]

I apologise for the late reply, for I went to bed.

Why does it need to be justified in the first place? He had her designed to be more erotic for figurines and cosplayers. The end.
What is the problem here exactly? You keep saying it is questionable or concerning. How so? Could you elaborate? You might not like the transparency or the reasons, and that's fine. But that doesn't make it wrong, or bad, or anything. It's just what it is.

I'm sorry, but creating an attractive female, in hopes real female cosplayers will dress in a particular revealing, skimpy manner kind of degrades women, for he doesn't utilise them for legitimate reasons (in his projects), but for objects of lust, nothing more to put it simply.

I don't think that's far-fetched at all in this case.

And I sincerely do believe that requires rationalisation.

He didn't make that argument though, you did. And regardless, why would this game negatively impact the industry, and not the plethora of other games featuring overtly sexualised characters that have been released for years and years? And if you are caring about how the game industry is perceived, then why would you focus on the lewdly dressed girl, and not the child soldiers, or what appears to be Snake shooting kids?

I made that argument from his thoughts, albeit I added in my own content, but I could legitimately see such an argument being established from his thoughts, whether by his intent or not doesn't matter.

I never stated that this game alone could give a fair insight in the view of the game industry, that's ludicrous. But it is part of the industry, and I believe this could simply be seen as an extension of such a problem. Meaning those who wish to look at how women are portrayed in the industry should also look at the MGS franchise, too.

The reasons I'm not concerned with the child soldiers is because I do expect it to be a subject which will be taken carefully with Mr. Kojima, for he said this will be a mature game with grim subjects. Which is why it disappointments me, with how he has essentially handled the female subject here.

If I decide to create something, I should be able to create whatever I want, without having to worry about how it may supposedly impact the over all industry. Whether it be a novel, a movie, a painting, a game, etc. If every one hates what I create, then nobody will consume it. And that's fine. I don't see how Kojima is any different. He creates what he wants. If people like it, great. If they don't, well that is fine to. But they should not be acting like he has to change what he is doing to conform to their internal moral standards.

Yes you should be able to create whatever you want, we're not arguing that here. But if you're a developer who possess a high position/standard in an industry then it is ludicrous and naive to suggest the work of your project doesn't impact the industry as a whole.

And just because one may not like how something is portrayed doesn't mean they won't like the product - which is the thing they are purchasing here - at all.

I like Spec Ops, but I don't particularly like it's gameplay (whether it was 'intentional' or not).

I love MGS, but I don't particularly like the justification of Quiet.

That doesn't mean I won't purchase the game (praying it comes to PC), but that doesn't make the game faultless either, which doesn't mean his success is rendered on such topics alone, there are things to improve upon. It's called constructive criticism, and we engage in such criticism to hopefully make the game better.

Though he is free to ignore such criticism - I merely ask he listens to it, and justifies his position.

And I'm not arguing for outsiders to impose their ethics on his project, I think that is looking at it in a rather obtuse manner, I'm simply arguing that constructive feedback especially when it concerns a controversial subject should be paid attention to.

Rather than just ignored.

And they can go ahead and do so. But it's not something Kojima should care about. And the people concerned about the portrayal should not be acting as though they are inherently right, or have the moral high ground.

No, they shouldn't, but it is something they have a right to criticise, and it would be wise for its creator to at least face that criticism with compelling justification, because if he can't then I would deem such criticism to be alot more valid.

 

[Pau]

what can I say. At least Kojima was honest about it?

I know this term got thrown around a lot during the whole Dragon's Crown controversy, but I'm actually getting pretty sick of the 'White Knighting' that a lot of guys do, trying to impose an image of being higher than others when it comes to the portrayal of female characters. Funnily enough, I think The Sorceress annoyed me because the game has a cartoon aesthetic. But Metal Gear is known for its weirdness, and it is clearly an adult-oriented game series so I don't really understand the problem. I mean, Kojima made us watch Raiden do nude flips, so, you know...

Yeah, because none of the people arguing could possibly be women talking about depictions of their own gender. Or guys who are just as tired of lazy and problematic design choices. But I'm sure they're all just doing it to feel better about themselves and not because they legitimately have criticisms about the design.

 

[encephalon]

Imagine Raiden was a woman, and nothing else in the game changed except that. Now, is it funny still, or is it now in fact sexual?
Yeah.
BTW, I don't why everyone just writes this scene off as a joke. If that's what it is, I have to say it's a pretty bad one. I took this scene as Kojima challenging sexual hang ups, by forcing me, a member of typical hetero gamer society, to watch and interact with a naked man for almost an hour.
But I suppose if you didn't actually play it, what else are you going to think?

It would be hard to do the same with a woman, because of breasts.

Yes it is a stupid joke. No, he was not attempting to "challenge you" as a heterosexual, lol. This is coming from a country where "lol he's gay" is considered the punchline of a joke.

Sorry I meant to say Bishonen, not Bishoujo.. But yeah look at the Wikipedia entry for Raiden if you don't believe me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raiden_(Metal_Gear)

I recall reading a few interviews with Kojima back when MGS2 came out that echoed this. That was why I said Kojima admitted to sexualizing the Raiden character. I didn't just pull that out of my ass like you are insinuating and I think that somehow you didn't actually read my entire post before responding to it.

I wasn't insinuating that you were pulling it out of your ass and was familiar with the fact. It's just the comparison was a stretch.

Edit: I've certainly played MGS2. I bought the PS2 collection before buying a MGS4 and a PS3. Where are you getting this from?

 

[polyh3dron]

I wasn't insinuating that you were pulling it out of your ass and was familiar with the fact. It's just the comparison was a stretch.

Edit: I've certainly played MGS2. I bought the PS2 collection before buying a MGS4 and a PS3.

An ok so you have played it. Then how can you possibly say the comparison is a stretch? With both characters, Kojima's intentions have been quite clear, as we saw with his tweets prior to releasing the pictures that are the reason this thread exists.

 

[BlazinAm]

Fun fact, Halo 4 has no female marines, even though literally every other game in the series does.

I think it does at least have higher ranking female soldiers, but there are moments in the jungle where there are female soldiers iirc.

 

[Romars202129]

It would be hard to do the same with a woman, because of breasts.

Yes it is a stupid joke. No, he was not attempting to "challenge you" as a heterosexual, lol. This is coming from a country where "lol he's gay" is considered the punchline of a joke.



I wasn't insinuating that you were pulling it out of your ass and was familiar with the fact. It's just the comparison was a stretch.

Edit: I've certainly played MGS2. I bought the PS2 collection before buying a MGS4 and a PS3. Where are you getting this from?

So we're a racist too, eh? 'Kojima couldn't have possibly been trying to do something profound, because all Japanese are bigots!'
Why don't you just gtfo?
Let me just say, as a person who's actually played the games, saying Kojima is anything but a friend to the lbgt community is BS. Very easilly his series has the best homosexual characters in gaming. It's not even a contest. Yes, there are some gay jokes. Guess what, gay jokes aren't the same as gay bashing.

 

[Karkador]

So we're a racist too, eh? 'Kojima couldn't have possibly been trying to do something profound, because all Japanese are bigots!'
Why don't you just gtfo?

You're terrible at this. At what point did that poster even whisper the idea of racism at anyone?

 

[BlazinAm]

So we're a racist too, eh? 'Kojima couldn't have possibly been trying to do something profound, because all Japanese are bigots!'
Why don't you just gtfo?

Sexual identity is not a gender.

 

[encephalon]

An ok so you have played it. Then how can you possibly say the comparison is a stretch? With both characters, Kojima's intentions have been quite clear, as we saw with his tweets prior to releasing the pictures that are the reason this thread exists.

Raiden being "pretty" for the sake of appealing to a female audience isn't the same as Quiet. Quiet is more than simply attractive. Nor was Raiden designed for the sake of cosplayers dressing up as Raiden in revealing outfits.

 

[daedalius]

False equivalency, the thread, this is.

 

[polyh3dron]

Raiden being "pretty" for the sake of appealing to a female audience isn't the same as Quiet. Quiet is more than simply attractive. Nor was Raiden designed for the sake of cosplayers dressing up as Raiden in revealing outfits.

http://www.konami.jp/gs/game/mgs2/art/third.html

OK, next is Raiden. Mesh patterns. It says you can see through his underwear. His suit is really tight too.

Shinkawa: I wanted something sexy...even erotic. A very unisexual sexiness.

I have heard that drawing the contours of a young character is difficult. Is this true?

Shinkawa: Not really. You'll see some rough sketches later on, and I had some trouble over the new sneaking suit design initially. Once we decided on the "bonelike" concept, it was quick from there. The breathing apparatus is like a "scroll". You know, ninjas and scrolls.

 

[Romars202129]

You're terrible at this. At what point did that poster even whisper the idea of racism at anyone?

I know you're mad at me, but why don't you just read what he wrote?
He litteraly said that Kojima couldn't have possibly have said or done anything pro- gay, because he's from Japan.
Who are you to not see the hate in this. It's pissing me off just repeating it!

 

[encephalon]

So we're a racist too, eh? 'Kojima couldn't have possibly been trying to do something profound, because all Japanese are bigots!'
Why don't you just gtfo?
Let me just say, as a person who's actually played the games, saying Kojima is anything but a friend to the lbgt community is BS. Very easilly his series has the best homosexual characters in gaming. It's not even a contest. Yes, there are some gay jokes. Guess what, gay jokes aren't the same as gay bashing.

Wow. First of all, I do not endorse the bold. It's just context. It's part of a broader strain of humor. This type of humor can be offensive, but I'm not particularly bothered by Kojima's games; there's really no malicious intent. I'm not particularly "bothered" by Quiet either, for the record.

If MGS has the best gay characters in gaming, that's pretty depressing.

http://www.konami.jp/gs/game/mgs2/art/third.html

Touche.

 

[Karkador]

Honestly, I think it's kind of missing the point to only say "Raiden was designed for women" without acknowledging the nature of MGS2's story as a whole.

IIRC, Raiden was designed for women because Kojima's studio interviewed girls who complained that Snake was an old man. So they made Raiden. However, why would they even consider this change to begin with? The most logical thing to follow up such a successful game as MGS1 is to make MGS2 more of the same. That's certainly what the fans wanted.

It's no secret now that MGS2 is a game that attempts to completely subvert and deconstruct everything MGS1 was about, including the character of Snake. This is partially because Kojima didn't want to keep making those games. I really don't buy that Raiden is simply Kojima suddenly wanting to make female gamers wet. It's a decision with ulterior motives, one that certainly fits into the greater self-dismantling narrative of the game, and as such, I think Raiden is used far more for the purpose of bothering or confusing the player than to arouse the player. It would be one thing if Quiet was being designed for something similar, but...nah, it's probably just for cosplay and figurines. The creator of the series said so himself.

It's a far cry from this fabricated idea of Metal Gear games being filled with positive sexuality for both genders, which some of you are using to bend over backwards to defend what is clearly some hollow T&A pandering.

 

[KugelBlitz]

Honestly, I think it's kind of missing the point to only say "Raiden was designed for women" without acknowledging the nature of MGS2's story as a whole.

IIRC, Raiden was designed for women because Kojima's studio interviewed girls who complained that Snake was an old man. So they made Raiden. However, why would they even consider this change to begin with? The most logical thing to follow up such a successful game as MGS1 is to make MGS2 more of the same. That's certainly what the fans wanted.

It's no secret now that MGS2 is a game that attempts to completely subvert and deconstruct everything MGS1 was about, including the character of Snake. This is partially because Kojima didn't want to keep making those games. I really don't buy that Raiden is simply Kojima suddenly wanting to make female gamers wet. It's a decision with ulterior motives, one that certainly fits into the greater self-dismantling narrative of the game, and as such, I think Raiden is used far more for the purpose of bothering or confusing the player than to arouse the player. It would be one thing if Quiet was being designed for something similar, but...nah, it's probably just for cosplay and figurines. The creator of the series said so himself.

It's a far cry from this fabricated idea of Metal Gear games being filled with positive sexuality for both genders, which some of you are using to bend over backwards to defend what is clearly some hollow T&A pandering.

I overall, greatly concur with this, you've illustrated the honorable opposition's position beautifully--I thank you.

 

[encephalon]

Regardless of whether or not Raiden was intended to be sexy, if naked Raiden was meant to be sexy (I still maintain that this is just meant to be silly), etc etc - we've yet to see a male character dressed in anything comparable to Quiet for the majority of the game. And I really don't want to. I don't think equal representation is necessarily the answer here.

 

[Raytow]

to summize this thread:

cortana > mgs women

You are aware that MGSV is now multiplatform, at ease soldier.

 

[Trent Strong]

This argument is ridiculous. Why does a female sniper in a bikini in Metal Gear somehow represent the entire industry? How does it somehow erase all of the artistic progress video games as a whole the past decade? It doesn't. This isn't the 80s and 90s anymore; video games have come too far to merely be pigeon holed as "Boys entertainment".

Film hasn't lost their artistic merit despite movies like Transformers, Star Trek, and Man of Steel being nothing more than sweet CG showpieces. Music hasn't lost its artistic merit despite the fact that most mainstream music is utter garbage. Photography hasn't lost its artistic merit even though I can look up photos of Sasha Grey getting double and triple penetrated. Why do video games get pigeon hold the same way?

Again, the gaming industry has matured enough to where AAA should be treated like Hollywood blockbusters (as much as it pains me to admit it) rather than flag bearers of artistic creativity. We've got titles like Journey, Flower, Heavy Rain (I'm not too crazy about it but it's undeniable the game tried to be something more than another mindless AAA title), The Last of Us, and countless others I'm missing, not to mention a shitload of indie titles, that at least strive to be more than the average boob filled 'splosion fest.

Personally it feels the industry is the nerdy cool trying to fit in with the cool kids, only he doesn't realize he's already pretty cool. Like I said earlier, movies have been pumping out soulless trash for years yet no one wants to take away its artistic merit badge? Why are videogames being held to a higher standard here?

It's pretty sad if those are the best examples there are of video games as art.

 

[sonicmj1]

Honestly, I think it's kind of missing the point to only say "Raiden was designed for women" without acknowledging the nature of MGS2's story as a whole.

IIRC, Raiden was designed for women because Kojima's studio interviewed girls who complained that Snake was an old man. So they made Raiden. However, why would they even consider this change to begin with? The most logical thing to follow up such a successful game as MGS1 is to make MGS2 more of the same. That's certainly what the fans wanted.

It's no secret now that MGS2 is a game that attempts to completely subvert and deconstruct everything MGS1 was about, including the character of Snake. This is partially because Kojima didn't want to keep making those games. I really don't buy that Raiden is simply Kojima suddenly wanting to make female gamers wet. It's a decision with ulterior motives, one that certainly fits into the greater self-dismantling narrative of the game, and as such, I think Raiden is used far more for the purpose of bothering or confusing the player than to arouse the player. It would be one thing if Quiet was being designed for something similar, but...nah, it's probably just for cosplay and figurines. The creator of the series said so himself.

It's a far cry from this fabricated idea of Metal Gear games being filled with positive sexuality for both genders, which some of you are using to bend over backwards to defend what is clearly some hollow T&A pandering.

To add to this idea, Quiet was spotlighted in the recent trailer for the game and Konami has already released their renders of the character, while Raiden didn't even exist in previews and demos of the game. Hard to market him to female gamers prior to release if he's not present in promotional materials.

 

[Karkador]

Regardless of whether or not Raiden was intended to be sexy, if naked Raiden was meant to be sexy (I still maintain that this is just meant to be silly), etc etc - we've yet to see a male character dressed in anything comparable to Quiet for the majority of the game. And I really don't want to. I don't think equal representation is necessarily the answer here.

I'm not against it being equal, but such a move would certainly put some fans off

Then again, they made MGS2 and put a lot of fans off. and MGS4.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Honestly, I think it's kind of missing the point to only say "Raiden was designed for women" without acknowledging the nature of MGS2's story as a whole.

IIRC, Raiden was designed for women because Kojima's studio interviewed girls who complained that Snake was an old man. So they made Raiden. However, why would they even consider this change to begin with? The most logical thing to follow up such a successful game as MGS1 is to make MGS2 more of the same. That's certainly what the fans wanted.

It's no secret now that MGS2 is a game that attempts to completely subvert and deconstruct everything MGS1 was about, including the character of Snake. This is partially because Kojima didn't want to keep making those games. I really don't buy that Raiden is simply Kojima suddenly wanting to make female gamers wet. It's a decision with ulterior motives, one that certainly fits into the greater self-dismantling narrative of the game, and as such, I think Raiden is used far more for the purpose of bothering or confusing the player than to arouse the player. It would be one thing if Quiet was being designed for something similar, but...nah, it's probably just for cosplay and figurines. The creator of the series said so himself.

It's a far cry from this fabricated idea of Metal Gear games being filled with positive sexuality for both genders, which some of you are using to bend over backwards to defend what is clearly some hollow T&A pandering.

This is Japan we talking about they sell figures \ merchandise for everything .
So would i say how Raiden look was also part of that , cosplay well i not touching that one lol .

 

[Gustav]

But seriously when someone like that comes on the screen I just roll my eyes and or question how that works. Then my headspace is just out of the game wondering how bad of a rash the girl must get.

Yup, when I play games, I always wonder why Mario never has to take a shit!

 

[Romars202129]

Wow. First of all, I do not endorse the bold. It's just context. It's part of a broader strain of humor. This type of humor can be offensive, but I'm not particularly bothered by Kojima's games; there's really no malicious intent. I'm not particularly "bothered" by Quiet either, for the record.

If MGS has the best gay characters in gaming, that's pretty depressing.



Touche.

... Let's just say it was a slip of the tongue and move on.

Anyways, yes it's sad, but not for that reason. There is just not that many gay characters in gaming, honestly. But I think Ocelot for one, is an amazing character. Some may argue his sexuality, and his it's kinda aparent, especially in 3. Also, I think Vamp is mostly redeemed, though he is a bisexual not really gay.
You're link though, what are you referring to? I perused it, but I didn't catch what you were pointing out I think?

 

[Scooter]

You've just described the difference between Sex-Positive Feminism and the other kind which people like the Tropes vs Women person subscribe to.

You hit the nail in the head. It's no coincidence that this obnoxious version of feminism according to which most things sexual are also sexist is prevalent in USA. It's the result of puritanism and feminism intertwined into a farcical ideology that is against any progress women have made in western society.

I'm sorry, but creating an attractive female in a game in hopes real female cosplayers will dress in a particular revealing, skimpy manner kind of degrades women, for he doesn't utilise them for legitimate reasons (in his projects), but for objects of lust, nothing more to put it simply.

Take this for example. If my girlfriend did this I'd think wow she's got balls, good for her, not that she degrades herself. The point of view according to which women showing their sexual side in any way is degrading is actually extremely conservative and in my opinion anti-feminist.

 

[Devolution]

Yup, when I play games, I always wonder why Mario never has to take a shit!

Sigh.

You hit the nail in the head. It's no coincidence that this obnoxious version of feminism according to which most things sexual are also sexist is prevalent in USA. It's the result of puritanism and feminism intertwined into a farcical ideology that is against any progress women have made in western society.

Take this for example. If my girlfriend did this I'd think wow she's got balls, good for her, not that she degrades herself. The point of view according to which women showing their sexual side in any way is degrading is actually extremely conservative and in my opinion anti-feminist.

Your girlfriend doing something for herself =/= making a character simply to titilate.

 

[Boken]

reowrwrrrr

who needs porn when you have ladies like these in your games

 

[Bishop89]

you people are too sensitive.
Lighten up

 

[blitzcloud]

To add to this idea, Quiet was spotlighted in the recent trailer for the game and Konami has already released their renders of the character, while Raiden didn't even exist in previews and demos of the game. Hard to market him to female gamers prior to release if he's not present in promotional materials.

what do we call Eli again? I suppose sexualized teen would suffice, lest we think there's some actual character development behind his outer appearance.

Probably marketed to female gamers for the same point you raised about quiet.

 

[Karkador]

Love the people arguing the point that her clothing isn't "realistic" enough for the desert.

lol it's a fictional video game!

Have you played any Metal Gear? Fantastical shit happens all the time. A sexy girl, is just that, a sexy girl.

Fantastical shit may happen all the time in the series (though now we're to believe it was all nanomachines), but the series has also always had a fetish for gear and tech that is either real or an offshoot of real. Characters wear stuff that protects them from hypothermia, reads the salts in their body, has octo-camo, enhances their strength, gives them night vision, etc. etc. What characters wear in Metal Gear games has always actually mattered a lot.

So for the creative decision to now be "she's gonna run around a warzone in panties and a bra, because it's sexy" is, even in Metal Gear Solid land, more unbelievable than nanomachines and vampires and psychics. It's absolutely a ridiculous sight to see this girl with a web belt and holders and grenades and stuff on directly over her underwear, and after all the dumb things we had to sit through in MGS4, this really does not look like Kojima cleaning up his act for the sequel. The guy needs an editor.

 

[Romars202129]

Honestly, I think it's kind of missing the point to only say "Raiden was designed for women" without acknowledging the nature of MGS2's story as a whole.

IIRC, Raiden was designed for women because Kojima's studio interviewed girls who complained that Snake was an old man. So they made Raiden. However, why would they even consider this change to begin with? The most logical thing to follow up such a successful game as MGS1 is to make MGS2 more of the same. That's certainly what the fans wanted.

It's no secret now that MGS2 is a game that attempts to completely subvert and deconstruct everything MGS1 was about, including the character of Snake. This is partially because Kojima didn't want to keep making those games. I really don't buy that Raiden is simply Kojima suddenly wanting to make female gamers wet. It's a decision with ulterior motives, one that certainly fits into the greater self-dismantling narrative of the game, and as such, I think Raiden is used far more for the purpose of bothering or confusing the player than to arouse the player. It would be one thing if Quiet was being designed for something similar, but...nah, it's probably just for cosplay and figurines. The creator of the series said so himself.

It's a far cry from this fabricated idea of Metal Gear games being filled with positive sexuality for both genders, which some of you are using to bend over backwards to defend what is clearly some hollow T&A pandering.

Man alive.
Alright, I'm sorry, but I have to rebut.
First of all, you're argueing it's not the same on the basis of your personal assumptions of motive. Kojima said Quiet's design was for models. He said Raiden was cause girls asked for it. But you assume he's telling the truth about one, and lying about Raiden...
And that Raiden was in fact Kojima using 'gayness' to destroy the series, even though MGS2 was beloved in japan, and Raiden nearly universally liked...
Besides the obvious... pray tell, why even, does this matter?
What does freakin intention even matter here?
Point is, oversexualized men and women. And you're saying it's sexist because the women are oversexualized for bad reasons and the men for good, It's BS. Point is, it doesn't effect the end product because MGSV can't be sexist if it treats men and women the same, now can it?
Unless, your arguement is Kojima is a sexist.
And then I say you're wrong for the above reasons and also because the model thing was probably pressure from Konami. I doubt Kojima concerns himself with the series' toy sales when he goes into developement.
Either way, doesn't really matter, because his motive would be making money then, not putting women down.

 

[KugelBlitz]

Take this for example. If my girlfriend did this I'd think wow she's got balls, good for her, not that she degrades herself. The point of view according to which women showing their sexual side in any way is degrading is actually extremely conservative and in my opinion anti-feminist.

Your girlfriend may do as she pleases, that's not what concerns me, what concerns me is that Mr. Kojima designed a character in hopes female cosplayers would reveal more of themselves, it's his intent for a character and how he wants females cosplayers to react to that which I find bothersome.

He's basically designed a revealing character for the sole purpose of wanting to see real females dress in such a manner.

 

[encephalon]

I'm not against it being equal, but such a move would certainly put some fans off

Then again, they made MGS2 and put a lot of fans off. and MGS4.

I quit MGS4 at the octopus sob story. I should probably complete it eventually.

 

[Scooter]

Your girlfriend doing something for herself =/= making a character simply to titilate.

So titilating means degrading? To whom? The character? My girlfriend? Other women? Why is an very attractive female be degrading to other women? Unless you factor puritanism and sexual guilt which feminists are fighting to get rid off it makes no sense.

 

[Devolution]

So titilating means degrading? To whom? The character? My girlfriend? Other women? Why is an very attractive female be degrading to other women? Unless you factor puritanism and sexual guilt which feminists are fighting to get rid off it makes no sense.

Making a character in a game for no other purpose than to get more girls to cosplay in bikinis doesn't really strike me as empowering women.

 

[Scooter]

Your girlfriend may do as she pleases, that's not what concerns me, what concerns me is that Mr. Kojima designed a character in hopes female cosplayers would reveal more of themselves, it's his intent for a character and how he wants females cosplayers to react to that which I find bothersome.

He's basically designed a revealing character for the sole purpose of wanting to see real females dress in such a manner.

He did, what's the problem? Are you assuming that these females aren't smart enough to make their own decisions? If anything, people like you who want to protect the helpless women from the evils of showing their bodies is what's anti-feminist.

Making a character in a game for no other purpose than to get more girls to cosplay in bikinis doesn't really strike me as empowering women.

It's neither empowering or degrading. The female cosplayers though are being empowered. Feminists fought long and hard to reach a point where women can show their sexual side without guilt and condemnation from society.