It doesn't matter what in-game rationalizations you can come up with, these areas still look like boring crap. LoK is known and loved for its awesome gothic and dark fantasy architecture. Some wooden shantytown, even if you can explain it away with yourfanfictionin-game lore, is still completely uninteresting. Someone said it looks like a rejected map from Tomb Raider, and I agree.
That seems like a funny conclusion to make. Kain's empire is in decay and he was time travelling sometimes, therefore, this? Whatever.I'm sorry you feel that way and with respect, I disagree. Let's break it down.
We know why Kain throws Raziel into the pit. We also know Kain is patiently waiting for Raziel's return when he emerges, even going so far as to say he expected Raziel to arrive at the Sanctuary of the Clans sooner. We *also* see that Kain hasn't suffered any of the effects of Nupraptor's curse over time in the same way as the other Lieutenants and their Clans. AND we also know that Kain has kept a somewhat light touch on his Empire during Raziel's time in the Abyss, given Rahab's comments in the Drowned Abby, apparently only making an appearance every so often when he sees fit and demonstrating a knowledge of future events. Additionally, Kain actively demonstrates a disregard for his Lieutenants (as well as their offspring and his whole Empire in general) and would have no reason to share his intricate plans to salvage Nosgoth and reclaim his role as the Scion of Balance with them. Plus, we also know Kain has access to and has been actively using the Chronoplast. Therefore, it seems overwhelmingly likely that Kain had skipped forwards through time, and not long after Raziel had been cast down judging by his not-as-devolved-as-the-Lieutenants appearance.
Therefore, Kain physically isn't around during the majority of Raziel's time in the Abyss,
If you say so. e_eIt's overwhelmingly likely, therefore,
Sorry you feel denigrated, but I call it like I see it, and besides, "narrative efforts", lol? I could call it a "narrative effort" if it were a single-player story-driven game where narrative actually matters, but you're making a deathmatch game. Give me a break.So PLEASE don't denigrate our narrative efforts by (a) calling it "fanfiction" and (b) using that word in an undeservedly pejorative sense.
Okay.I mean, it's true in one sense in that we're fans and it's fiction, but we've gone to as greater lengths as possible to make sure nothing contradicts pre-established canon
And that's where you lose me. Obviously we differ in what "interesting" means. And I know I'm not alone here.and actually expands what we know of this era in interesting ways
That seems like a paltry excuse; you have an opportunity to make majestic evil cathedrals and fortresses, but instead you pick crappy wooden shantytowns as levels? I'm aware it won't be the only map, but for a trailer you'd want to showcase your best, so forgive me if I'm completely underwhelmed by the art direction (and that's being kind). Besides, in the older games, even the smaller-scale environments looked cooler than what we saw in the trailer. This is a Blood Omen mod of Nachtholm, and that already looks more inspiring, and of course Uschtenheim was in Soul Reaver 2 and looked pretty damn awesome and totally in line with the LoK artistic feel.Fair enough, and your entitled to your opinion, however let's take a look at Blood Omen. Uschtenheim and Nachtholm weren't exactly on the same scale as Willendorf or Avernus, were they?
See above.Not everything is as fully built up as the Human Citadel. And, naturally, we want to hold onto some of the more impressive content for later use. So, please give us a chance, we're still growing.
Okay.What, you mean these hand cannons?
I don't feel you're taking all the evidence into account. What about Kain's comparative lack of devolution? Why would he have he allowed Dumah to be staked? Why was his empire in such disarray when Raziel emerged from the Abyss? Why, given the nature of his character, would he even bother sticking around and waiting for Raziel to emerge from the Abyss when he has the Chronoplast at his disposal? All of this points to Kain having skipped forwards through time and the rest is logical progression.That seems like a funny conclusion to make. Kain's empire is in decay and he was time travelling sometimes, therefore, this? Whatever.
I think you underestimate the amount of world-building involved in *any* game set in the LoK universe. I mean, we've written a Bible, not all of which will probably ever be revealed in its entirety (although I did just paraphrase a chunk of it). We do have plans to convey the history of this era to Nosgoth's players, however it isn't in moment-to-moment gameplay.Sorry you feel denigrated, but I call it like I see it, and besides, "narrative efforts", lol? I could call it a "narrative effort" if it were a single-player story-driven game where narrative actually matters, but you're making a deathmatch game. Give me a break.
Sure, absolutely, but you're also not of the only opinion going. Nevertheless, I get that you don't like our approach and that's okay. I can't force you to, nor would I want to, and we're hyper aware that Nosgoth won't appeal to every single long-time LoK fan around. Nevertheless, I'm still of the firm opinion that Nosgoth is a valid and credible entry in the series' canon.And that's where you lose me. Obviously we differ in what "interesting" means. And I know I'm not alone here.
Both the examples you give are in the land of Nosgoth's pre-corruption era, whereas our game is set during Kain's decaying Empire, so I don't think they're a fair comparison. Also, please consider you're comparing snatched glimpses of maps from a trailer to environments in which you've had full, 360-degree playthroughs. Moreover, bear in mind the inherent differences in the development approach to live games and traditional boxed/on-disc titles - our trailer is composed of pre-Alpha content and, as I say, the game will be growing and evolving over time. I seriously look forward to showing you what we currently have in production at a later date.That seems like a paltry excuse; you have an opportunity to make majestic evil cathedrals and fortresses, but instead you pick crappy wooden shantytowns as levels? I'm aware it won't be the only map, but for a trailer you'd want to showcase your best, so forgive me if I'm completely underwhelmed by the art direction (and that's being kind). Besides, in the older games, even the smaller-scale environments looked cooler than what we saw in the trailer. This is a Blood Omen mod of Nachtholm, and that already looks more inspiring, and of course Uschtenheim was in Soul Reaver 2 and looked pretty damn awesome and totally in line with the LoK artistic feel.
Oh MonkeyThumbz. If I somehow miss the live Q and A would it bother you if I sent a PM containing a list of questions about this iteration of the series regarding gameplay mechanics?
All depends on my work schedule.
I think you underestimate the amount of world-building involved in *any* game set in the LoK universe. I mean, we've written a Bible, not all of which will probably ever be revealed in its entirety (although I did just paraphrase a chunk of it). We do have plans to convey the history of this era with Nosgoth's players, however it isn't in moment-to-moment gameplay.
From where I'm sitting, I wouldn't call our aspirations small at all. I also wouldn't call Nosgoth's gameplay run-of-the-mill, either. Designing and implementing fair and balanced asymmetrical ranged versus melee team-based combat is no small challenge! As for our scope (and I've a feeling that *this* is going to be my repeated phrase for some time to come), what we revealed today is only a part of a bigger whole that we'll be rolling out over time.Curious, if you've written a bible, then why does the studio have such small aspirations? Why not create that world? The IP could be MASSIVE, and it's being used to a third person multiplayer focused kill-fest...
I understand you only have a budget to work under, but man, this is like the chance to make something really special with a really old IP, and it's being turned into yet another run of the mill multiplayer game.
I'm not saying the execution is going to be poor, i'm saying the scope is insanely condensed to the point where it just looks like a huge waste of time.
I get where you're coming from, but if you read up on all the stuff that was left hanging about this particular era (not just in the games, but cut content, interviews etc.), all we're really doing is turning a lot of not-so-subtle hints and clues into explicit beats in the timeline.Man, I won't comment on gameplay (hope it's fun), but plotwise, those comments make me remind why I am wary of prequels and interquels set in a relatively tight continuity. "Hey, it's plausible that it happened!". You have to play it extremely safe (and be boring) or create some ridiculous storylines that expand the universe by betraying fans' previous expectations. If you choose the second option, the new, more detailed subplots have to be strong enough to replace the old ones while not contradicting the established lore. Sadly, most writers can't achieve that.
From where I'm sitting, I wouldn't call our aspirations small at all. I also wouldn't call Nosgoth's gameplay run-of-the-mill, either. Designing and implementing fair and balanced asymmetrical ranged versus melee team-based combat is no small challenge! As for our scope (and I've a feeling that *this* is going to be my repeated phrase for some time to come), what we revealed today is only a part of a bigger whole that we'll be rolling out over time.
Oh yeah, by the way...
A few weeks ago, I invited a bunch of hardcore LoK fanatics (what can I say, I was in good company - go on, test me on the series' lore, I dare you)
Paging mamarobotnik...
I feel sorry for all the Legacy of Kain fans. They are feeling right now the Square-Enix special of pissing off all their fans.
I'm personally not a fan of the Legacy of Kain series, but this game sure as hell isn't going to make me interested in the series. Surely I am not alone.
So if this game isn't for old LoK fans and not for people like me, who is it for exactly?
Yes, yes, and yes. And yes. Well put.Listen, MonkeyThumbz
First when you discuss the poor architecture, setting, and lack of feel of a this LoK game and say "Well there are other places is Nosgoth we never saw." is just proof that you and/or the team don't get it. You're right that in a realistic world that is totally the case, that there are varying esthetics to a world. BUT this is not the real world, this is a Lok game and it's "ART" design and level design is created with a strong Gothic styling, uncompromisingly so. As the Art director you COULD feature wooden shacks in the woods, it's very possible and logical they would exist but you DON'T because that's not the Artistic direction of the franchise, and you make concession for that direction.
Any kind of excuse you have is irrelevant. It DOES NOT LOOK FOR FEEL LIKE A LEGACY OF KAIN GAME. If you lose the look and feel you've lost a lot from a game who's origins are based on strong single player experiences which pull from more than anything story, look, feel, esthetics.
Do I as a LoK fan want to know about the battles between humans and vampires during Ravel's time in the Abyss and Kain''s now reticonned absence? Nope. It's like saying if he want to know what happened at Mundus' castle in DMC1 when the demons attacked and took over. Without Dante, Vergil, or any of the main cast, and the continuation fo the story, what's the point? Same thing goes for LoK but even more so given how the series left on a HUGE cliff hanger that has been undressed for nearly 10 years.
There is literally no appeal to me in this game. I don't want a social experience with my LoK game, I don't want a multiplayer game, so I'm not ever going to play it. I'm not going to "give it a shot" because its LoK. That would be stupid of me, the game itself does not look like anything I would play. "But it's free to play" Dude, Candy Crush is free to play and I don't play that, why? Cause it's not something that interests me from a gameplay perspective.
You have thankless job Mokeythumbz and you will feel that thanklessness in the months to come I assure you but it is your job to sell this game. They just gave you something unsellable. The wrong franchise, in the wrong genre, with the wrong goals and ideas in mind.
The LoK series has always incorporated more art styles than just Gothic. If you take a look at this post by Daniel Cabuco, who I'm sure needs no introduction, you'll note that the Vampiric structures followed a more Byzantine/Ottoman motif, whereas Human ones were more influenced by European designs, with the original team mixing and matching "mercilessly" between them. Am I saying that what you've seen so far rigidly follows those concepts? No, all I'm saying is that there's greater scope for artistic freedom within the LoK universe than you're postulating.First when you discuss the poor architecture, setting, and lack of feel of a this LoK game and say "Well there are other places is Nosgoth we never saw." is just proof that you and/or the team don't get it. You're right that in a realistic world that is totally the case, that there are varying esthetics to a world. BUT this is not the real world, this is a Lok game and it's "ART" design and level design is created with a strong Gothic styling, uncompromisingly so. As the Art director you COULD feature wooden shacks in the woods, it's very possible and logical they would exist but you DON'T because that's not the Artistic direction of the franchise, and you make concession for that direction
Firstly, this really is not a retcon as we're absolutely not changing any part of the continuity retroactively. It has always been both strongly inferred by the original LoK games' development team and speculated by the LoK community that Kain simply jumped ahead through time to meet Raziel and all we're doing is confirming that to be the case.Do I as a LoK fan want to know about the battles between humans and vampires during Ravel's time in the Abyss and Kain''s now reticonned absence?
That's cool, I don't think anyone's ever designed a game that appeals to absolutely everybody (apart from maybe Mario and Sonic). Even so, i I think it would be great if people were allowed the space to come to form their own opinions about the game rather than be encouraged to have a negative opinion about it without ever having seen or played it. I mean, I don't play Candy Crush either, but I wouldn't hate on people for doing so or the people who made that game (*not* saying that's what you're doing even for a moment, merely expanding the point). Just take a look at the impressions from the hardcore LoK fans who *have* seen and played it I linked to earlier in this thread. So, while this game isn't for you, please appreciate that doesn't necessarily mean it's not for everybody full stop.There is literally no appeal to me in this game. I don't want a social experience with my LoK game, I don't want a multiplayer game, so I'm not ever going to play it. I'm not going to "give it a shot" because its LoK. That would be stupid of me, the game itself does not look like anything I would play. "But it's free to play" Dude, Candy Crush is free to play and I don't play that, why? Cause it's not something that interests me from a gameplay perspective.
There is precedent for genre-switching within the LoK series though, and similar comments were leveled at Soul Reaver by Blood Omen fans.You can not alienate the core the fan base of a game and switch genres and expect things to go well.
Oh don't you worry about that, I beat that drum pretty much every day of the week.The only thing I ask and everyone else here asks is that you got to SE and you tell them. "Listen I went on NeoGaf, there were so many LoK fans there, the series fanbase is very much alive but they want a true sequel and continuation of the franchise."
I don't think that's how we've ever viewed the IP internally, we've always thought that the LoK IP comprised a universe rich and deep enough for multiple complimentary interpretations. Again, check out this quote from Amy Hennig from the September 2000 issue of Official Playstation Magazine.Bad analogy because there are tons of Star Wars games and a few at that time released. Also, Star Wars games are licensed games that easily get away with cross genre (FPS, TPS, strategy, RPG, MMO, etc.) Legacy of Kain is not Star Wars. It was much more similar to Zelda than anything else.
Re: GLoK Interviews with Amy Hennig said:"The plan is that in the future we can continue to explore different aspects of Nosgoth's history, with different characters. This is such a rich universe with so much mythology and backstory, and so many interesting players. The analogy we use internally is that we want to establish something like they did with Star Trek or Star Wars - where you have a consistent universe and 'mythology' which can be explored from many different perspectives."
Listen, MonkeyThumbz
First when you discuss the poor architecture, setting, and lack of feel of a this LoK game and say "Well there are other places is Nosgoth we never saw." is just proof that you and/or the team don't get it. You're right that in a realistic world that is totally the case, that there are varying esthetics to a world. BUT this is not the real world, this is a Lok game and it's "ART" design and level design is created with a strong Gothic styling, uncompromisingly so. As the Art director you COULD feature wooden shacks in the woods, it's very possible and logical they would exist but you DON'T because that's not the Artistic direction of the franchise, and you make concession for that direction.
Any kind of excuse you have is irrelevant. It DOES NOT LOOK FOR FEEL LIKE A LEGACY OF KAIN GAME. If you lose the look and feel you've lost a lot from a game who's origins are based on strong single player experiences which pull from more than anything story, look, feel, esthetics.
Do I as a LoK fan want to know about the battles between humans and vampires during Ravel's time in the Abyss and Kain''s now reticonned absence? Nope. It's like saying if he want to know what happened at Mundus' castle in DMC1 when the demons attacked and took over. Without Dante, Vergil, or any of the main cast, and the continuation fo the story, what's the point? Same thing goes for LoK but even more so given how the series left on a HUGE cliff hanger that has been undressed for nearly 10 years.
There is literally no appeal to me in this game. I don't want a social experience with my LoK game, I don't want a multiplayer game, so I'm not ever going to play it. I'm not going to "give it a shot" because its LoK. That would be stupid of me, the game itself does not look like anything I would play. "But it's free to play" Dude, Candy Crush is free to play and I don't play that, why? Cause it's not something that interests me from a gameplay perspective.
You have thankless job Mokeythumbz and you will feel that thanklessness in the months to come I assure you but it is your job to sell this game. They just gave you something unsellable. The wrong franchise, in the wrong genre, with the wrong goals and ideas in mind. Make no mistake, this will fail as game. No matter how much effort you try to put into damage control it will. You can say it's a good game, a great game and it could be a good game but it wont help. You can not alienate the core the fan base of a game and switch genres and expect things to go well.
The only thing I ask and everyone else here asks is that you got to SE and you tell them. "Listen I went on NeoGaf, there were so many LoK fans there, the series fanbase is very much alive but they want a true sequel and continuation of the franchise."
Nowhere in that quote even hints at going into different game genres. She's talking about exploring other areas of the LoK universe with different characters or during other time periods which is completely understandable and something I would support 100%. Also, I believe if Amy Hennig was still at the helm, she would not wanted to have LoK go into the direction of an MP battle arena.Sorry, meant to reply to this yesterday but had it open in the wrong window.
I don't think that's how we've ever viewed the IP internally, we've always thought that the LoK IP comprised a universe rich and deep enough for multiple complimentary interpretations. Again, check out this quote from Amy Hennig from the September 2000 issue of Official Playstation Magazine.
Now, I'm not saying that her team at Crystal Dynamics had an asymmetrical multiplayer game in mind, all I'm saying is that the the LoK universe has been built to be strong enough and broad enough to support this experience.
Nowhere in that quote even hints at going into different game genres. She's talking about exploring other areas of the LoK universe with different characters or during other time periods which is completely understandable and something I would support 100%. Also, I believe if Amy Hennig was still at the helm, she would not wanted to have LoK go into the direction of an MP battle arena.
Sure, you can sign up form the Closed Beta right now on our website (www.Nosgoth.com). Please don't DDoS us!Monkey, any idea on when Closed Beta invites are going out? I would love to give this game a try, I really enjoyed Unreal Championship 2
Absolutely I can, of course - to date, LoK has been known for its sophisticated narrative and accomplished characterisation. I just hope that, once people get their hands on the game, people appreciate we're trying to add to and even expand people's expectations of the IP, not detract from it.People would be screaming bloody murder just as they're doing here. So, I hope you can see why fans all around like myself are pretty miffed about the direction SE decided to take.
Sure, you can sign up form the Closed Beta right now on our website (www.Nosgoth.com). Please don't DDoS us!
Not sure when the invites will be issued, but I'd expect it'll be before Xmas.
I'm shocked that fans that got to travel to the offices and play a game before everyone else enjoyed themselves.
I like games where both sides play vastly different, such as Natural Selection. I think just from watching the video though that the humans look really boring.
Absolutely I can, of course - to date, LoK has been known for its sophisticated narrative and accomplished characterisation. I just hope that, once people get their hands on the game, people appreciate we're trying to add to and even expand people's expectations of the IP, not detract from it.
so onto a question, realistically and please be as honest as you can to manage our shattered expectations, IF Nosgoth proves successful* what are our chances of a single player continuation of the series? and not just another multiplayer?
Probably a dumb question, but are the actual developers watching this thread? I would hope so in regards to getting a feel for the reactions in regards to this direction.Firstly, I'm not actually sure that Nosgoth's success is directly tied to the chance of another SP entry in the series. We love the IP and know that it resonates well, so even if Nosgoth was a total flop there's still a chance we'd want to create a single-player LoK experience sometime down the line.
That said, Nosgoth being successful would only help, as hopefully it would expose the IP to new people and make them interested in future titles.
Either way, I am *just* a CM. So I could be talking out of my arse here. Please bear that in mind.
Yes, of course! Not just the devs either, but people on the publishing side, too.Probably a dumb question, but are the actual developers watching this thread? I would hope so in regards to getting a feel for the reactions in regards to this direction.
Yes, of course! Not just the devs either, but people on the publishing side, too.