Maybe you explained it poorly, but based on this you don't seem to understand what gender is, on even a basic level. You don't even have it confused with sex, you simply don't know its significance. Even by your own definition, "gender" wouldn't be visible to an outsider, which wouldn't make any sense as an answer to the question of how you refer to someone who appears confusingly gendered. Would you mind clarifying this point, as you see it?
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Transgender journalist at EG Expo called "this person" on stage at MS event (See OP)
- Thread starter winstano
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Maybe you explained it poorly, but based on this you don't seem to understand what gender is, on even a basic level. You don't even have it confused with sex, you simply don't know its significance. Even by your own definition, "gender" wouldn't be visible to an outsider, which wouldn't make any sense as an answer to the question of how you refer to someone who appears confusingly gendered. Would you mind clarifying this point, as you see it?
Maybe he was still uncertain? Its ridiculous that "this person" is in anyway offensive. If anything, it shows that his intent was def not to offend.
It sounds more like to me that he had second doubts on her gender when he got a better look at her. And he didn't exactly have time to clarify her gender on the stage.
I imagine the tone of voice used could make a big difference, if Grand Moff Tarkin called somebody this person for example, I imagine it would be quite insulting
If the comedian changed to she, if was a transgender she would feel better. If was a dude in drag he would laugh and play the part
I was not explaining what gender is since the poster clearly says "gender the person identifies" so it looks like he understands what gender is basicaly, I was explaining that gender is important and science has studied transsexuality.
This thread is already too complicated and chaotic ... to include a discussion of what is gender and how it appears and the construct and the social and the everything would just implode this thread =P
Possibly. I'm going based off what she said. I'm also factoring in the laughing in as something that may have made her believe something else happened then what actually did.
As I've said, context. It can definitely be offensive depending on the persons tone and intent.
I thought it seemed like he noticed her being uncomfortable when he was referring to her as he so he stopped but said this person.
You could be right, I'm going off what she recently said.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
I imagine the tone of voice used could make a big difference, if Grand Moff Tarkin called somebody this person for example, I imagine it would be quite insulting
By her own (new) accord, he was not doing that, as it would been in line with the original "it" standing.
robotzombie
Member
You are making the mistake of assuming people have a vast knowledge and understanding of transgendered people. Ultimately, we are talking about a very, very small percentage of people that most people don't ever really come in contact with and interact with. People don't walk around thinking about whether the people they are interacting with could be transgendered. What you are asking of this guy is, on stage, in a crowd full of people, to recognize he is calling someone by the wrong gender, know exactly what to do in that situation, correct it immediately in a fashion you deem acceptable, and make sure everything goes as smoothly as possible. I think you are putting a little too much pressure on the guy.
What seems to have happened is a person was called up that was expected to be a girl, he sees what he thinks is a guy, is confused, refers to her as a guy, realizes something seems wrong and tries to avoid the scenario by avoiding referring to the person's gender. A perfectly reasonable response in the given situation. You can't expect that he realized "oh this person is transgendered, and thus should be referred to as "she", I will correct my descriptors immediately". Guy did absolutely nothing wrong.
Yeah but that could be her rethinking what happened rather than how she felt in the moment. Like I said, the laughing probably made it much worse.
not psycho
Member
It sounds like she is assuming he realized she was a woman only because he said "that person." But it is also possible he said "that person" because he wasn't sure of her gender (which is what he says happened).
Yeah, not saying it was intended in this instance, but there are many way that label could feel very insulting.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
The thing is that doesn't excuse her when she is a public persona giving personal details in a public forum. She went as a journalist to the event, even if it was her "personal time" when she decided to participate in the event.
I disagree transgendered people are a very small portion but that's besides the point.
I understand people make mistakes, I get they mishandle things(funnily all things she herself did) but I do think a bit of critical thinking should apply. I doubt she stood there happy when he misgendered her as male. Maybe my expectations are ridiculous but I think you should be able to notice when you've made someone uncomfortable unless she was acting completely opposite which it doesn't seem like.
But I will agree it's a lot of pressure to put on someone who may have not been in this kind of situation before. It's a difficult situation and maybe I'm placing a bit too much blame on him because I'm trying to understand why this all may have pushed her to view what happened the way she did.
My big concern is why they wouldn't let her talk to him so they could work this out before it became this big issue. Was this ever clarrified?
not psycho
Member
But again, did he ever actually address her personally as male? If so, then it would be more likely he would notice she was uncomfortable with it.
On the other hand, if what actually happened is that he talked about getting some women on the stage (while not looking at her) she could easily look very uncomfortable without him noticing at all.
polyh3dron
Banned
You are giving far too much weight to Laura's idea of what is going on inside Fraser's head when she has absolutely no idea unless she can read minds which I somehow doubt.
I'm going by what she said. She could of course twisted what happened here as well but so far It seems that's what happened.
There have basically been no good results of this situation, and that's one of the things that really makes me sad.
Laura's character is now in question, and people are using that as fuel for why they think the entire argument over taking care of how to deal with and treat transgender people is overblown. She's been subjected to a ridiculous amount of verbal abuse over the internet, making her feel like shit.
This comes on the heels of the Chloe Sagal situation, which saw another transwoman in the gaming community whose truthfulness got called into question (rightfully so, to be clear), who ended up being attacked by many in that community, and who now stands as an example for some of how people who are trans are just trying to trick people.
I feel for both Chloe and Laura, even if they made mistakes and didn't always do the right thing. A bit more selfishly, however, I hate that these are the examples of trans people that have been the most prominent and public in the gaming community as of late. We desperately need more positive examples for both trans and non-trans gamers to see and recognize, but sometimes it feels like it's just been nothing but bad news in that regard in recent months. *sigh*
So, I think that's one of the things that can make some frustrated over all of this. Of course, I don't want to speak for anyone but myself.
Laura's character is now in question, and people are using that as fuel for why they think the entire argument over taking care of how to deal with and treat transgender people is overblown. She's been subjected to a ridiculous amount of verbal abuse over the internet, making her feel like shit.
This comes on the heels of the Chloe Sagal situation, which saw another transwoman in the gaming community whose truthfulness got called into question (rightfully so, to be clear), who ended up being attacked by many in that community, and who now stands as an example for some of how people who are trans are just trying to trick people.
I feel for both Chloe and Laura, even if they made mistakes and didn't always do the right thing. A bit more selfishly, however, I hate that these are the examples of trans people that have been the most prominent and public in the gaming community as of late. We desperately need more positive examples for both trans and non-trans gamers to see and recognize, but sometimes it feels like it's just been nothing but bad news in that regard in recent months. *sigh*
So, I think that's one of the things that can make some frustrated over all of this. Of course, I don't want to speak for anyone but myself.
ElectricKaibutsu
Member
All I know is I could have made the same mistake in his situation, and if I knew I upset her, I'd feel really bad about it.
not psycho
Member
I'm going by what she said too. Where does she say he personally addressed her as male?
She says he referred to her as male. That can mean he wasn't talking to her, or even looking at her. Possibly it could mean he implied there were no women on stage, thus implicitly referring to her as male.
Dash Kappei
Not actually that important
I totally agree with Polyh3dron's comment here:
And I'd say that the way she tried to falsely accuse the comedian guy at first goes well beyond not having "journalistic integrity". That kind of behavior can ruin people's lives, to make up all that shit and keep on spreading lies and telling half-truths I find it despicable to say the least.
Smh.
And I'd say that the way she tried to falsely accuse the comedian guy at first goes well beyond not having "journalistic integrity". That kind of behavior can ruin people's lives, to make up all that shit and keep on spreading lies and telling half-truths I find it despicable to say the least.
Smh.
Generally when someone says they're being referred to as something, it's usually personally. But yes, that's all I'm going off of.
HolyBaikal
Banned
When people talk about this biological, psychological wiring of "gender" and how everybody has it.
I can't help but feel like I don't have a gender.
It makes things worse than there's all those biotruth people out there who use transgender people as evidence that every nasty gender stereotype ever is biologically hardwired "because Satoshi Kanazawa and other Evo Psych people said so." If everything is biologically hardwired, am I biologically hardwired to have a deeply uncomfortable feeling in the pit of my stomach whenever I hear Satoshi Kanazawa's name?
I mean, I'd love to be a girl as long as I don't have to have boobs or curves. Mostly I'd like to get shorter and have smaller shoulders. But I in no way feel dysphoric with my gender, just bored. And if anything right now, I'm just making an effort to become an androgyne.
Like, I really don't want a gender. I'm slightly bored, but comfortable enough in my own skin. If someone calls me a man or a woman it doesn't bother me. If anything, being mistaken for a woman is a lot of fun. Maybe I'm genderqueer or agender or something. I wish that's something I could call myself without someone insulting me and telling me I'm trying to be a "special snowflake".
I can't help but feel like I don't have a gender.
It makes things worse than there's all those biotruth people out there who use transgender people as evidence that every nasty gender stereotype ever is biologically hardwired "because Satoshi Kanazawa and other Evo Psych people said so." If everything is biologically hardwired, am I biologically hardwired to have a deeply uncomfortable feeling in the pit of my stomach whenever I hear Satoshi Kanazawa's name?
I mean, I'd love to be a girl as long as I don't have to have boobs or curves. Mostly I'd like to get shorter and have smaller shoulders. But I in no way feel dysphoric with my gender, just bored. And if anything right now, I'm just making an effort to become an androgyne.
Like, I really don't want a gender. I'm slightly bored, but comfortable enough in my own skin. If someone calls me a man or a woman it doesn't bother me. If anything, being mistaken for a woman is a lot of fun. Maybe I'm genderqueer or agender or something. I wish that's something I could call myself without someone insulting me and telling me I'm trying to be a "special snowflake".
Storm Chamber
Banned
I'd rather be an Alpaca. Alpacas > llamas.
YOU BLOT THAT SHIT
JustProgress
Member
Can't feel sympathy for her. She acted like a petulant child on Twitter, and from the new updates it seems she made up most of the truly offensive parts to her story. She keeps claiming all she wanted to do was tell the guy she was upset - why not DM him on Twitter? Hopefully the joint statement clears it up.
She lied, she's backtracked and things came to bite her on the ass. I don't feel sorry for her anymore than I would feel sorry for anyone else doing the same. In this case she made the situation and she caused all this to happen. The best that can happen now is that both people involve do the joint release and hopefully that will calm down people on both sides that may be attacking either of them and maybe time will heal all that has happened.
It really goes to show how powerful words/accusations are and what social media can do if your not careful.
It really goes to show how powerful words/accusations are and what social media can do if your not careful.
Yes, I agree. That's what I found somewhat annoying from the very beginning: I know being misgendered can be a big blow, but nonetheless, I also know there are trans people who deal with this issue with actual grace. There was never an excuse to go to Twitter over this, or to exaggerate what happened and not even offer the slightest bit of context. It was a poor impulse, and one that should have been checked. As difficult as her situation was, Laura still fumbled the ball.
That said, it's ridiculous for people to put so much focus on her character. How is it even relevant to the bigger picture? I mean, there actually are some good lessons here: professionalism is a virtue, and Twitter is the last place things like this should be handled; yes, sometimes misgendering someone can be a totally innocent mistake, but remember how hurtful it can be, because it doesn't hurt to be more aware of such things; just like it was stupid to assume the worst of the accused at the start of all this, it's no better to assume the worst of the accuser now - in other words, there's no need to assume the worst all the time; and, of course, it's pretty clear there's a lot of work to be done before trans folks can be completely comfortable on the internet.
But no one seems to be talking about those lessons, or any others. Instead, it's about how this clearly sensitive person who had just been humiliated in front of hundreds of people, and then straight up abused by probably a comparable amount, didn't handle the situation perfectly every step of the way. She's a random flawed human being, and in my eyes, she's hardly a great candidate for vilification. I seriously hope "oh, Laura whatever is a horrible person" isn't all anyone took away from this situation.
Pristine_Condition
Member
Yeah. And honestly, if you're a journalist, you should have no reason to be up on a stage where a corporation is giving out gifts and thinking "jackpot" when you get called up.
Remember a simpler time when we used to be offended at things like the Games Media Awards hashtag giveaway scandal last year?
michaelius
Banned
So in the end it was just attention whoring and self made drama ?
Can't say I'm suprised.
Can't say I'm suprised.
D
Deleted member 8095
Unconfirmed Member
If you go out in public wearing rainbow hair and animal ears you're probably going to be in some awkward situations.
I feel I'm fairly understanding of people's personal choices.
You find a member of the same sex sexually attractive? Fine with me.
You feel that you are a certain gender, genetics be damned? Fine with me.
You believe that God doesn't want you to have any sexual actions at all? Fine with me.
Whatever your beliefs are, they're yours and you can believe what you want.
But I think it's reasonable that the majority of the world recognizes certain features as male or female. If you possess features that the majority of the world recognizes as male it's reasonable that people may assume you are male.
You may choose to view yourself differently, but you must be realistic as to how you're going to be viewed by others.
It appears that Laura was mistaken as male. I think this was a reasonable mistake. Laura views herself as female, which is fine by me, but she should have the wits to realize that she possesses features that will make her be mistaken for male.
It seems to me this presenter was taken by surprise and handled it the best he could. Laura was offended, and lied about what happened to give that offense credibility.
In my view I side with the presenter. Maybe he isn't that familiar with transgender folk - many people aren't. I read his actions as someone who's on stage and has to keep the ball rolling, doing the best he can. I don't see him actively trying to insult anyone.
I DO see Laura actively trying to hurt the presenter, however. Her lying about his words make him look pretty bad, which is a shitty thing for her to do. It definitely ruins her career as a journalist, in my mind. Will anyone believe another word from her?
Or am I seeing this wrong?
You find a member of the same sex sexually attractive? Fine with me.
You feel that you are a certain gender, genetics be damned? Fine with me.
You believe that God doesn't want you to have any sexual actions at all? Fine with me.
Whatever your beliefs are, they're yours and you can believe what you want.
But I think it's reasonable that the majority of the world recognizes certain features as male or female. If you possess features that the majority of the world recognizes as male it's reasonable that people may assume you are male.
You may choose to view yourself differently, but you must be realistic as to how you're going to be viewed by others.
It appears that Laura was mistaken as male. I think this was a reasonable mistake. Laura views herself as female, which is fine by me, but she should have the wits to realize that she possesses features that will make her be mistaken for male.
It seems to me this presenter was taken by surprise and handled it the best he could. Laura was offended, and lied about what happened to give that offense credibility.
In my view I side with the presenter. Maybe he isn't that familiar with transgender folk - many people aren't. I read his actions as someone who's on stage and has to keep the ball rolling, doing the best he can. I don't see him actively trying to insult anyone.
I DO see Laura actively trying to hurt the presenter, however. Her lying about his words make him look pretty bad, which is a shitty thing for her to do. It definitely ruins her career as a journalist, in my mind. Will anyone believe another word from her?
Or am I seeing this wrong?
20 20 vision by the looks of it.
Great summary.
I like it here but for some reason this place becomes kotaku real quick. So in the end she made things worst and everybody put out their pitchfork. I hope next time we give people space and not buy into a trap for attention. Let out by a mood swing over an honest mistake.
Assuming we're not missing any other major pieces of the puzzle, this sounds like a reasonable summary. Seems like the presenter was mostly just surprised and didn't mean any harm. Laura also wasn't wrong to take some level of offense to the situation, though her response afterwards was questionable to say the least.
I don't think it as purely malicious on her part, though, as I can see how some of this is a delayed reaction of a lot of other crap she's had to put up with. Doesn't completely excuse her, obviously, just makes her situation a little more understandable. The ramifications for her career as a journalist are unfortunate, but the damage has been done.
God Dayumm
Banned
It is a reasonable mistake. In that case you call them a "he" and humbly apologize if corrected. But referring to someone as "it" or "this person" is just rude.
Either word can be offensive I mean look how she handled this...
A Link to the Past
Banned
At the end of the day, regardless of the severity of what he actually said, this stands as more proof of how vicious and horrible the gaming community is (at least that portion).
simplythebest
Banned
Pretty much
You mean how some ppl wanted to put his head on a stake here? Totally agree.
TheRedSnifit
Member
It is in this context. If you were to replace "cis" with "black" or "gay" in that sentence, people would call you out for it, and rightfully so. The poster clearly meant it to be derogatory, or else they wouldn't have said it.
Friend of mine from another forum was behind the scenes at the event, in brief apparently there was quite a bit of confusion as many believed that a guy wearing a wig had jumped up as a joke and it took too long for anyone to really figure out what was going on.
Series of unfortunate events all round.
LD used to be a member of that forum as well before being banned for being utterly crazy and let's just say not 100% truthful on various matters.
Series of unfortunate events all round.
LD used to be a member of that forum as well before being banned for being utterly crazy and let's just say not 100% truthful on various matters.
Maidenpool?
Member
I have to disagree. Hitler was vicious and horrible. Mao Zedong was vicious and horrible. Some guy who is looking at a girl who used to be a guy and calls her "this person" is incredibly lite fair, historically speaking.
If anything, to your point, if this act is actually considered as vicious and horrible by modern standards, then we have it incredibly easy, and I find it to be proof that we are living in the most peaceful and pleasant time in recorded civilization.
Make no mistake, name calling stinks. I learnt that in pre-school. But I was also taught the phrase "sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me."
A Link to the Past
Banned
No, I meant how many people personally attacked her for being transgender and threatened to kill her for being transgender.
If you honestly think that the real problem is people attacking the comedian in defense of another for what he (apparently) said, then I can't help but think that you have some serious problems.
Could you perhaps read what I said? My statement was unequivocally not about what he is purported to have said. My statement referred to how the gaming community reacted to her.
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