DirtyLarry
Member
Here I was thinking I was perhaps offering something that could help people out, yet the first thing I am told is Relax?
OK. Good luck with all of that then.
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PS4 Brazil Importation costs revealed. Taxes say Olá!! ($1161.53 USD in taxes!)
- Thread starter phosphor112
- Start date
OK. Good luck with all of that then.
TchallaApex
Banned
Just pre-ordered Xbone, anyway, ps4 will wait, I will be at US next year, then a ps4 I shall Buy
"Relax" here also means "don't worry about it". But to answer your question, it has a chance of it getting taxed and then the person you are sending has to pay 60% of taxes of the value you declared. It's risky. Some try and get it with no problems. But there's always a risk. On top of that, if the person doesn't have the 60%, they put the product into auction. I've seen even sports cars going into that.
As a game developer, I really think that our market loses a lot with this situation. But I also think the best course of action is to not buy any console, so their (companies) lobby to reduce taxes get stronger. Now, if Sony is being greedy about it, they would definitely see that action (not buying) as another reason to stop. I don't know because we need to understand how MS got to the price they have, but as a long-term situation, not buying can help everybody.
BGS heist incoming:
I'm imaging nerds heisting to the Stevie wonder song they played during one of the trailers.
Also JEEZ the prices, i'm not even getting PS4 at launch , but wow.I couldn't imagine brazil
I'd like to see this chart for my country, Peru.
But I gotta mention this, we got a very nice timed deal:
This is the deal
But I gotta mention this, we got a very nice timed deal:
- PS4
- Extra Dualshock
- KZ Shadow Fall
This is the deal
phosphor112
Banned
That's not bad at all. Same deal in US would be 520+ tax (depends on state/city, mine is 9%).
Why does everyone think that Sony is trying to screw over Brazil when other South American countries have MUCH MUCH MUCH more reasonable prices?
All those fan-made worksheets are nothing but guesswork, to be honest. Especially the comparisons with the Xbox One price. It's impossible for us to really understand what's going on with that price because we don't know all the little details that Sony has to consider while going through our extremely complex and ever-changing tributary system. No one knows that stuff - no one but the incredibly well-paid execs Sony Brazil hired to come up with this price over the course of months since the original PS4 US price reveal.
Quadraphonic
Member
You seem to think the 'profit margin' is some evil demon cooked up by Sony to rip you off.
In this case, there's the margin to sell to the distributor in Brazil AND the margin the store gets selling to you. Both of which are a mandatory percent of the price. Sony sees none of that.
Just a few things: the tributary system is not ever-changing, it's relatively stable in the last decade. The problem is the complexity of it all like you mentioned.
Also, I didn't see any specialist explain in details the taxes yet. They say the tax percentage is correct, but no one checked the price carefully. In the Kotaku article the specialist said the table is incorrect, at least slightly, as some taxes are overestimated and there are taxes being applied to the profit margins when they shouldn't. I really would like to see a specialist checking the price in detail, like it was done to the car prices a few years ago. I want to know exactly how much is taxes and how much is the insanely high profit.
That's not the case. High profit margins are common in Brazil, in one of the articles linked a few pages back it is mentioned that they are 3 to 4 times larger than the US (to give you an idea, $400 of the price of the PS4 is the profit of everyone involved). When people complain about abusive prices in Brazil, companies blame the taxes and the profit margins are rarely mentioned. I think that Sony is doing the same here. Don't misunderstand me, taxes are a large part of the price no doubt, but high profit margins are an important part of the problem too. Both should be blamed, not only the taxes as usual. Also, let me be clear: it's not that Sony is some evil company trying to rip off Brazilians. Every multinational company charges abusive prices. But that's not a reason to be quiet. Unless we do something nothing will change. We will continue to have a complex and unjust tax system (the way the tax system works, the poorer you are the larger is the part of your income destined to pay taxes) and we will continue to suffer with huge profit margins and abusive prices.
CambriaRising
Member
Thats a lot of taxes.
Interesting to get at look on the transfer price, that Sony Brazil pay for the PS4 back to the main company R$858 - that close to what the PS4 costs in the US at retail. Coupled with the discount Sony Brazil gives, that should remove a good portion of their margin, as speculated on in the fan spreadsheet, I'd venture a guess that Sony isn't too keen on paying 25% corporate tax i Brazil 
AcademicSaucer
Member
video game consoles have a special treatment
MEDIDAS IMPOSITIVAS PARA LAS MERCANCÍAS
DE LA SUBPARTIDA NACIONAL 9504.50.00.00
ESTABLECIDAS PARA SU INGRESO AL PAÍS
Ad / Valorem 6%
Impuesto Selectivo al Consumo 0%
Impuesto General a las Ventas 16%
Impuesto de Promoción Municipal 2%
Derecho Específicos N.A.
Derecho Antidumping N.A.
Seguro 2.5%
Sobretasa 0%
500 + 2.5% + shipment or whatever cost gets you TOTAL A
AD / V = 6% (TOTAL A)
IGV= 18% (TOTAL A + AD/V + sony peru profit + retail margin )
The tax specialist agree that Sony's price is correctly calculated according to the law, but at the same time they point out that it could be much cheaper if they calculated the taxes differently (but still within the law). Some of the math done showed a reduction of 500 dollars in taxes.
Either Sony can't do taxes right, or is twisting their math to push the blame to taxes.
Either Sony can't do taxes right, or is twisting their math to push the blame to taxes.
Interesting to get at look on the transfer price, that Sony Brazil pay for the PS4 back to the main company R$858 - that close to what the PS4 costs in the US at retail. Coupled with the discount Sony Brazil gives, that should remove a good portion of their margin, as speculated on in the fan spreadsheet, I'd venture a guess that Sony isn't too keen on paying 25% corporate tax i Brazil
In the us, video game console retail prices are basically the same as the wholesale price. There's basically no retailer margin here. And of course the actual manufacturing cost is likely higher than $390.
Are you serious in this quote? Or you're being ironic? The part in bold is confusing me. I mean - with the evidence (do you consider Sony's charts evidence?) that we have so far - do you think that taxes are the main reason behind PS4's absurd price?
Oh, and that's an honest question; I'm not trying to offend/defy you. I'd like to say that I agree with your post, but I'm not sure whether you're serious or not.
Metalmurphy
Member
Someone asked for a source on this in the other thread, was it ever posted?
If they manufacture 360s it makes sense they'd do it for X1s too.
Several people have asked there is no source the answer they give is that they live there and would know if that was happening.
waterydave
Banned
As someone who works in exports and ships to Latin America regularly, I can state that exporting to Brazil is the hugest ballbust out of all the countries. It takes months to send freight to Brazil because of all the customs and governments bureaucratic red tape. Such a pain in the ass.
Supaidaman
Member
Microsoft themselves didn't say anything about the XBONE but Brasil Game Show might be the place where they can shed some light into this.
PS3's are also manufactured in Brazil
ethomaz
Banned
Like I said... every news site in Brazil says the Xbox One is imported too.... and you need the government approval to mount the console here... there is none too.
Google five seconds.
http://olhardigital.uol.com.br/noticia/38307/38307
http://pandaliem.blogspot.com.br/2013/10/preco-do-ps4-aqui-no-brasil.html
"The first Xbox One models do arrive in Brazil are imported too"
"the Xbox One that is imported too (and ironically 100 dollar expensive)"
ethomaz
Banned
And several people showed a lot of sources lol
BTW it is not the opposite... you need source to show that the console is manufacture here... no source = imported. If the console is manufacturer here we have official documents to check... if it is only imported not.
This is public information here.
I actually am serious. I'm not defending Sony - I'm just saying that even with all the fan-made worksheets in the world pointing to the contrary, we can't say for sure that they're lying.
The PS3 is manufactured (assembled, actually) in Manaus.
Sum-Mischief
Member
Its funny how most look at this ... Its not like Sony making any profits. To be priced so much higher than the xbone goes completely on what they doing elsewhere in the world.
I'm sure just to ease the cost from taxes nothing other than taking a massive loss on each console. Now that would be madness ...
I'm sure just to ease the cost from taxes nothing other than taking a massive loss on each console. Now that would be madness ...
INFO (probably the biggest tech magazine over here)
http://info.abril.com.br/games/noti...e-preco-absurdo-do-ps4-mas-nega-reducao.shtml
Their consultant specialist says the values that Sony provided are nebulous and their profit margin is very high for this type of product.
Video: http://info.abril.com.br/tvinfo-nov...brasil-9c51f9aabbd0f70870444cb01db84048.shtml
http://info.abril.com.br/games/noti...e-preco-absurdo-do-ps4-mas-nega-reducao.shtml
Their consultant specialist says the values that Sony provided are nebulous and their profit margin is very high for this type of product.
Video: http://info.abril.com.br/tvinfo-nov...brasil-9c51f9aabbd0f70870444cb01db84048.shtml
Projectjustice
Banned
Thats your trade off for having probably the most beautiful women on the planet.
Garotas are just simply amazing!
Garotas are just simply amazing!
feint_ruled
Member
Why would Sony sell their console at a loss everywhere EXCEPT Brazil, where they instead choose to gouge customers for thousands of dollars? Guess they hate Brazil!
But if you actually read zomgwtfbbq, he explains the whole thing. You have to take the hit somwhere, MS are happy for the parent company in the US to take it, Sony cannot afford to make their bottom line look any worse in Japan due to previous bad results.
Ok i have tried to read your sources and understand them with google translates butchering. The first website has info from an anonymous source saying that they are both imported and explaining that the xbox one is probably getting preferential retailer treatment for some reason. The second source just states that it is imported as a fact without any sources.
According to google translate the consultant said that the numbers are within the tax code but that they can be misleading. He wanted sony to release the tariff code of the ps4 so that they could have a definitive calculation done by a third party.
And more important, there are probably enough people in Brazil who will buy it at that price.
Even then, when the cost is the same as travelling, buying it in the States and coming back, I don't see why even the richest people wouldn't do just that. I'm very intrigued about how many units are they going to be able to sell.
NTIETS13A_Superiority
Banned
Could it be that Xbone is not classified as gameconsole/gambling machine in Brazil?
What are the ways to lower those insane taxes in Brazil?
What are the ways to lower those insane taxes in Brazil?
ethomaz
Banned
First you need to stop with google translate.
Now about the Xbone and PS4... even my mon knowns they are imported... no need source... if they are manufacture (assembled to be fair) then you have source... there are official documents about that, you need that here... so if the there are no official document then imported.
Nobody in Brazil question that because it is TRUE... there is no anonymous source lol... it is official.
PS3 = assembled
360 = assembled
Vita = Imported
PS4 = To be imported
Xbone = To be imported
Every major site in Brazil says imported too because there is not official factory to assembled Xbone.
So you are trying too hard to prove something that is the opposite... there is no proof for assemble here.
About the second comments... again you need to stop de Google Translate... the guy clearly said...
"There are nebulous points in the Sony explanation. " - Sony is hidding a lot of things.
"The taxes maths are in line with Brazilian's law" - Even I know that... the taxes are these.
"But first we need to know the real price of the PS4 arriving the Brazil" - Yeah Sony need to give you more details.
"22% profit margin is huge. You can even compare with others equipments like TV" - Sony is trying to make the PS4 price high.
Sony is not being honest with us... because if there are something Brazilian knows better then everybody is how to import a product from any country in the world.
Not truthful, but plausible because it's correct according to law. But the specialists also agreed that some of the calculations could be corrected to diminish the taxes. Now I find hard to believe that those "incredibly well-paid execs" would messed up their tax math.
ethomaz
Banned
The IPI is lower from 50% to 20% at minimum... the IPI in Sony chartz was ~900... so it will decrease the price to $3500?
So with different classification the maths didn't match.
That's what I think too. In my opinion, it's the most reasonable stance on the matter, considering what we know so far.
What saddens me is that we - gamers and the media - are not addressing the tax problem. I really hoped that this episode would be, like, the last straw. That people would see this as an opportunity to try and change how videogames are taxed in Brazil. But nothing's happening... and, to be honest, I don't know what we could do - that would be really effective. I see some people saying "vote for different politicians", but brazil's political scenario is really messed up. I think that most political candidates, or maybe all of them, don't care about this issue. They probably don't even know what a videogame is.
phosphor112
Banned
Then provide proper translations of the links you're putting. How are we supposed to read it... if we can't?
And that 22% is STORE profit margin, not Sony's.
ethomaz
Banned
Happen a lot here in Brazil... a lot of companies do tricks to avoid the taxes (I can say over 90% of the companies but I don't have real numbers).
Brazil is corrupt like the people from outside can't even understand because the people that lives here can't understand too.
ethomaz
Banned
Sorry if I will translate every news article about this subject here... I will wast my day or week.
I can't do nothing about that.
If you have any part you need translation you can ask me.
Who said it is not? The specialist said Sony is inflating that... no retail have this profit margin... and this number can't be added to calc the II and IPI.
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
ethomaz
Banned
We'll have more news on the subject? Or just more of the same?
PS. Are you one of the UOL Jogos editors in the video about the PS4 price?
Metalmurphy
Member
You're linking me to a blog post that on turn is referencing facebook comments and an article where they claim their unnammed source "confirms" that the x1 is imported. (I'm Portuguese)
Sorry, I don't buy it. This is in NO WAY beneficial for Sony for them to be doing it on their own.
ethomaz
Banned
Cool.
I have a friend that currently works at Microsoft, I was also an intern there for a while right next to the Xbox team. Don't trust me if you want, but the Xbox One is not manufactured here.
GameAddict411
Member
"gambling machines"?! What the hell is that supposed to mean? I didn't know I could gamble on my PS3.
Metalmurphy
Member
What about assembly?
Oh God, I'm so sorry!
I understand you concern and it's really cool, thank you very much!
But what I meant is that there are tons of risks that we have in you sensing a PS4 for me, for example:
1) Our mail system is terrible and I have some packages that was never delivered (yes, they stole from me t-shirts from threadless;
2) Random taxes;
3) PS4 could arrive here broken =/
What I meant is that this time we have officially the PS4 @ launch, but we aren't even used to this. PS3 launched in 2010, but everybody got a PS3 before.
In fact, while I know some people that bought Xbox 360 @ retail stores here, I don't know one single person that didn't buy in grey market or in other countries.
So, when I say to you "relax" is to not worry about it because we will find a way, as usual, to buy our desired console.
In the worst case, we can buy from amazon (UK or US), pay the taxes and pay waaaaaaay less than our official price.
But we always have "Santa Ifigenia" (the street that is the grey market paradise) to go. ;-(
Of course it would better if someone bring a console to us, but by mail system is always risky.
Do you have an extra ticket for Friday?
I hated BGS so much last year that I didn't really noticed that I'm on vacation on Friday this time =/