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PS4 Brazil Importation costs revealed. Taxes say Olá!! ($1161.53 USD in taxes!)

Z

zomgbbqftw

Banned
Gbraga said:
Basically, not only their tax info is not accurate, but if instead of adding their profit to discount it later they just never added it to the product in the first place before calculating taxes, it would be ~$500 cheaper.

EDIT: It's still ~$350 cheaper only by using the correct tax info, btw.

That is, assuming his/her data is correct, and that I can't say.
Click to expand...

Sony are saying that importation fees are applied to the final distributor price which is the transfer price + distributor margin, the latter is set to a 20% minimum. It seems unlikely that they would do this voluntarily or that they would lie in financial documents.

The answer is that MS have set a low transfer price and are losing some money up front to get a headstart in Brazil which they may deem of important strategic value while Sony have set the transfer price at a break even level.
 
S

SwiftDeath

Member
Frodo said:
So, are we really accepting that PS4 is the ONLY Sony product that falls under all those taxes? Everything else, laptops, cameras, bluray players and et cetera Sony sells at a loss only to give Brazilians the opportunity to buy them?

Why isn't the Vita being sold at the same margin/taxes?
Click to expand...

But with the same logic why would Sony choose this product to jack up so damn much?

Why wouldn't they do it with everything else too?

I cannot imagine Sony Brasil and the parent company want to sell it at that price as console makers make money from licensing (except maybe in this case I guess lol)
 
Allan Holdsworth

Allan Holdsworth

Member
Piggus said:
Mmmmm *hugs my state's 0% sales tax*

Unfortunately it's not just Brazil. A lot of South American countries apparently love to fuck over their own people with insane import taxes. You guys need to stop putting up with that shite.
Click to expand...

But how are politicians, their families and friends going to survive? Think of those poor people.
 
Z

zomgbbqftw

Banned
SwiftDeath said:
But with the same logic why would Sony choose this product to jack up so damn much?

Why wouldn't they do it with everything else too?

I cannot imagine Sony Brasil and the parent company want to sell it at that price as console makers make money from licensing (except maybe in this case I guess lol)
Click to expand...

Because volume in Brazil is going to be very low until around 2015, Sony may not want to inflict losses on the parent in Japan/America when neither PS4 or Xbox One are going to do gangbusters until the price is significantly lower. I guess by then the PS3 assembly lines will morph into PS4 assembly lines as well, which will get them around the importation fees.
 
P

Platy

Member
n64coder said:
What is the WiiU price in Brazil? I wonder how the markup compares to the ps4/xbone
Click to expand...

Chakan said:
If you think you're paying too much, try buying it here.

Basic Set = R$ 2.199,00 or 10 monthly payments of R$ 219,90. That's about US$ 1.048,00 or 10x US$ 104,80.

eQwiw.jpg


6sN3S.jpg
Click to expand...

And the console is not oficialy released here

=P


Again for the new page :

Platy said:
Basicaly a dude who is not a lawyer or tax expert suddenly says "In this simulation, I take out this number out" and suddenly the game is cheaper =P

Both KotakuBr and ArenaIG said they consulted experts and except for a few bigger margins (lets say it was the pssimistic tax they made) it is everything pretty plausible.

The problem now is NOT why the PS4 costs 4k ... is why the XB1 don't
Click to expand...
 
G

Gauis

Banned
zomgbbqftw said:
Because volume in Brazil is going to be very low until around 2015, Sony may not want to inflict losses on the parent in Japan/America when neither PS4 or Xbox One are going to do gangbusters until the price is significantly lower. I guess by then the PS3 assembly lines will morph into PS4 assembly lines as well, which will get them around the importation fees.
Click to expand...

I also think that's the reason, and from a business point of view they are right to do so. Probably not having an official launch here would probably have gone better for them PR wise.
 
S

SwiftDeath

Member
zomgbbqftw said:
Because volume in Brazil is going to be very low until around 2015, Sony may not want to inflict losses on the parent in Japan/America when neither PS4 or Xbox One are going to do gangbusters until the price is significantly lower. I guess by then the PS3 assembly lines will morph into PS4 assembly lines as well, which will get them around the importation fees.
Click to expand...

Well it's absolutely abhorrent if it is Sony taking a crazy margin

How much did the PS3 launch at?
 
ethomaz

ethomaz

Banned
zomgbbqftw said:
Because volume in Brazil is going to be very low until around 2015, Sony may not want to inflict losses on the parent in Japan/America when neither PS4 or Xbox One are going to do gangbusters until the price is significantly lower. I guess by then the PS3 assembly lines will morph into PS4 assembly lines as well, which will get them around the importation fees.
Click to expand...
PS4 at R$2000 will sell great here and I'm not talking about low volumes.
 
G

Gbraga

Member
zomgbbqftw said:
Sony are saying that importation fees are applied to the final distributor price which is the transfer price + distributor margin, the latter is set to a 20% minimum. It seems unlikely that they would do this voluntarily or that they would lie in financial documents.

The answer is that MS have set a low transfer price and are losing some money up front to get a headstart in Brazil which they may deem of important strategic value while Sony have set the transfer price at a break even level.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, and judging by people's reactions about the PS4 price, it seems like they did a good move if that's the case.
 
SpecialAgentZ

SpecialAgentZ

Member
Platy said:
And the console is not oficialy released here

=P


Again for the new page :
Click to expand...

That's not true. That price was during the launch hype when sellers took advantage of the situation, and the console isn't officially here yet.

Now the Wii U can be bought for R$ 950 or less here. Mine was R$ 1050 2 months after launch.


One example of stores selling the Wii U

http://www.boadica.com.br/produtos/p104306

Interesting is:

The 3DS XL can be found for US$ 199 and officially costs R$ 1100 here in Brazil.

(US$ 199 price tag taken from http://www.bestbuy.com/site/nintendo-3ds-xl-red-black/5720611.p ).
(R$ 1100 price tag taken from http://www.americanas.com.br/produto/111661127/console-nintendo-3ds-xl-azul-preto )

It can be bought for R$ 600 ~ 699 in the grey market.

Why the PS4 is the only gaming machine that have a price that doesn't make any sense?
Will people say that only Sony pay taxes and MS and Nintendo doesn't?
 
M

mantidor

Member
So Sony adds margins as "taxes" now, lol. The price is indefensible simply because we have already other devices, more expensive, and with a lower price.

n64coder said:
What is the WiiU price in Brazil? I wonder how the markup compares to the ps4/xbone
Click to expand...

Never officially launched, but I've seen at least one in the wild hovering $1500 R, around $680 dollars. This was a mall, so it's probably cheaper in "grayer" markets.
 
H

Hakai

Member
Platy said:
And the console is not oficialy released here

=P


Again for the new page :
Click to expand...

The Wii U Basci set doesn't cost that much here, even on lauch time it was cheaper than that, this was one out of 100.

The only thing I don't get is why they put the taxes upon the $399 value, isn't that the value of the console with the profits margin of the north american retailers already? Shouldn't it be the cost price?
 
Z

zomgbbqftw

Banned
SwiftDeath said:
Well it's absolutely abhorrent if it is Sony taking a crazy margin

How much did the PS3 launch at?
Click to expand...

But they aren't taking a crazy margin. They are selling for $390 plus the mandatory 20% distributor fee which they reimburse.

$390 sounds like a plausible transfer price, again this is Sony playing by the rules set by the government, to the letter of the law. That other companies use variable transfer pricing to lessen the burden for Brazilian people is nice, but Sony have chosen, for the PS4 at least, not to inflict losses on the parent and declare a profit in Brazil like they and other companies do for other products.
 
F

flkraven

Member
So, did Microsoft money hat the Brazilian government? In all seriousness though, are both manufacturers paying this ridiculous tax rate?
 
S

Supaidaman

Member
Anybody (journalists or whatever) tried to contact Microsoft to ask how they reached the R$2100 price tag? I'm not an economist but there's something weird happening here.

Also, if taxes are so huge and Sony doesn't really want to sell the console here at the R$4K price tag... maybe releasing the console only in 2014 would be a better idea?
 
DirtyLarry

DirtyLarry

Member
Is it feasible of members here in the US or elsewhere to pick up the PS4 for Brazilians somehow and send it to them? Or would they not make it through customs or something similar?

I know I am only a JR, so people may not trust me, but I truly believe this is an absolute travesty, and I am sure I am not alone in this belief, so anything to help out my fellow man when possible, I am all for. I figure even if shipping is something insane like $100, that STILL saves people around $1200 (at least).
 
I

Ishida

Banned
Wow.. And I thought we were paying ridiculously inflated prices here in Mexico (PS4 will be $577 dollars here).

My deepest condolences to our Brazilian bros.
 
S

Subaru

Member
DirtyLarry said:
Is it feasible of members here in the US or elsewhere to pick up the PS4 for Brazilians somehow and send it to them? Or would they not make it through customs or something similar?

I know I am only a JR, so people may not trust me, but I truly believe this is an absolute travesty, and I am sure I am not alone in this belief, so anything to help out my fellow man when possible, I am all for. I figure even if shipping is something insane like $100, that STILL saves people around $1200 (at least).
Click to expand...

Relax, we are used to import consoles. This price it's not a thing that will change our lives, but since the market has grown a lot and the Xbox 360 and PS3 are actually somewhat affordable here (considering there is warranty and stuff), ppl thought that this time would be something, you know, more realistic.

The sad part is that we want to help the market grow, I want to buy here, but I'm not stupid.

I know a guy that travels to Miami to buy consoles and games and he will be selling AT LAUNCH for R$ 1600,00. It's still expensive, but he got to pay his travel ticket.

I'm going to Europe in May, so I will buy in the last city that I will visit (Berlin). Everybody else will wait a little bit and buy in the grey market.
 
ethomaz

ethomaz

Banned
DirtyLarry said:
Is it feasible of members here in the US or elsewhere to pick up the PS4 for Brazilians somehow and send it to them? Or would they not make it through customs or something similar?
Click to expand...
That's how a lot of gamers buy well games.

There are chance to be catch by customs but the taxes you pay still make the console cheaper than the official (even for Xbone)... I bought five times last year and just one was caught by customs... so it is easy and cheaper.

The only issue is the warranty... you need to pay to sent to US to use the warranty and pay to get it back.
 
G

Gbraga

Member
DirtyLarry said:
Is it feasible of members here in the US or elsewhere to pick up the PS4 for Brazilians somehow and send it to them? Or would they not make it through customs or something similar?

I know I am only a JR, so people may not trust me, but I truly believe this is an absolute travesty, and I am sure I am not alone in this belief, so anything to help out my fellow man when possible, I am all for. I figure even if shipping is something insane like $100, that STILL saves people around $1200 (at least).
Click to expand...

The taxes for imports are insanely high, but it's still way cheaper than the official PS4. If you get it from Amazon it'll cost you around $800, taxes and shipping included.

Subaru said:
Relax, we are used to import consoles. This price it's not a thing that will change our lives, but since the market has grown a lot and the Xbox 360 and PS3 are actually somewhat affordable here (considering there is warranty and stuff), ppl thought that this time would be something, you know, more realistic.

The sad part is that we want to help the market grow, I want to buy here, but I'm not stupid.

I know a guy that travels to Miami to buy consoles and games and he will be selling AT LAUNCH for R$ 1600,00. It's still expensive, but he got to pay his travel ticket.

I'm going to Europe in May, so I will buy in the last city that I will visit (Berlin). Everybody else will wait a little bit and buy in the grey market.
Click to expand...

Yeah, we can find our way, the biggest issue would be the price bump for games, but I guess next gen offering everything digitally will help with that.
 
G

General Choomin

Banned
This just means that PC is a better choice to make. Steam is gonna be huge next gen in Brazil!

Also, how much do HDTVs cost in Brazil and what is the rate of households who own HDTVs?
 
S

SwiftDeath

Member
Zeroth said:
Unoficially? Back when it was $599 in the US, it was about $4.000 here.

When Sony launched it officially, the price was around $700, IIRC.
Click to expand...

So do you think there's a good chance it'll be sold for much less than currently being said?

zomgbbqftw said:
But they aren't taking a crazy margin. They are selling for $390 plus the mandatory 20% distributor fee which they reimburse.

$390 sounds like a plausible transfer price, again this is Sony playing by the rules set by the government, to the letter of the law. That other companies use variable transfer pricing to lessen the burden for Brazilian people is nice, but Sony have chosen, for the PS4 at least, not to inflict losses on the parent and declare a profit in Brazil like they and other companies do for other products.
Click to expand...

All right I'm fairly confused now so Sony isn't making a crazy margin just stating they will make a profit and that turns up the taxes or something?
 
A

allansm

Member
The retail and distributor profit margins total R$857, that's about $400 dollars in profit! The profit alone is enough to buy a PS4.

Edit.: Another thing: in this calculation Sony is considered a price of $400 for a imported console, but that's the retail price in the US, the real price is actually lower that that.
 
R

reptilescorpio

Member
zomgbbqftw said:
Sony are saying that importation fees are applied to the final distributor price which is the transfer price + distributor margin, the latter is set to a 20% minimum. It seems unlikely that they would do this voluntarily or that they would lie in financial documents.

The answer is that MS have set a low transfer price and are losing some money up front to get a headstart in Brazil which they may deem of important strategic value while Sony have set the transfer price at a break even level.
Click to expand...

zomgbbqftw said:
Because volume in Brazil is going to be very low until around 2015, Sony may not want to inflict losses on the parent in Japan/America when neither PS4 or Xbox One are going to do gangbusters until the price is significantly lower. I guess by then the PS3 assembly lines will morph into PS4 assembly lines as well, which will get them around the importation fees.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, makes a lot more sense to me now. I agree with the logic that Sony will look to build the PS4 userbase later on once costs come down due to the condition of the market as well.
 
A

AranhaHunter

Banned
zomgbbqftw said:
Sony are basically playing by the rules as set by the government in Brazil, if people there want shit to change then vote for different politicians.
Click to expand...

LOL

Sorry, but to fix Brazil we would have to go back in time and have it be rediscovered and repopulated. The issue is not as simple as voting for different politicians.
 
C

Chakan

Member
PS3 was launched in Brazil in 2010 for R$ 1.999. The console price back then was US$ 299. The console was also fully imported. Today, its manufactured locally.

Sony is actually trying to explain that the PS4, which costs US$ 399, only US$ 100 more than the PS3 from 2010, is R$ 2.000 more expensive, making it cost R$ 3.999.

How exactly US$ 100 becomes R$ 2000?
 
H

Hugo!

Neo Member
AranhaHunter said:
LOL

Sorry, but to fix Brazil we would have to go back in time and have it be rediscovered and repopulated. The issue is not as simple as voting for different politicians.
Click to expand...
A new tax code would solve this and many other problems. The only problem is political force.
 
A

allansm

Member
Hugo! said:
A new tax code would solve this and many other problems. The only problem is political force.
Click to expand...

There are federal and state taxes. Even if the federal government wants to change the taxes, the state governors must agree and change the taxes of their states too, otherwise everything stays the same. Although the federal government is fine and can reduce taxes without going into the debt, many states are so deep in debt that they cannot afford to charge less taxes without restructuring the debt. It's not something simple, political force alone is not enough.
 
A

Ateron

Member
the-mask-accountant-o.gif


That's a shitload of taxes! I don't know if this is true, but someone once told me it was due to the fact that gaming is compared to gambling in brasil, but I could be totally wrong on this. It boggles my mind..63% tax?

It takes a lot of passion and devotion to gaming to put up with that.

If I'm wrong about that,my apologies Brasil-GAF. Don't kill me please. Portuguese here!
 
A

allansm

Member
Ateron said:
the-mask-accountant-o.gif


That's a shitload of taxes! I don't know if this is true, but someone once told me it was due to the fact that gaming is compared to gambling in brasil, but I could be totally wrong on this. It boggles my mind..63% tax?

It takes a lot of passion and devotion to gaming to put up with that.

If I'm wrong about that,my apologies Brasil-GAF. Don't kill me please. Portuguese here!
Click to expand...

I'm not sure about the 63%... It seems that Sony is doing incorrect calculations to justify the price and so the taxes are artificially inflated. Check this post:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=86916073&postcount=736

Also, like I wrote above, $400 are profit from both Sony and the retailer. That's a lot.
 
Z

zomgbbqftw

Banned
SwiftDeath said:
All right I'm fairly confused now so Sony isn't making a crazy margin just stating they will make a profit and that turns up the taxes or something?
Click to expand...

Well not even a profit, the $390 transfer price looks to me like a break even price. I'll explain everything in the list, give me a minute:

In USD:

Transfer price - $390 - This is the price Sony BR pays SCEI for finished units

Landing price - $468 - This is the cost of the unit once it is into an Sony BR warehouse
Distributor Margin - $117 - This is a mandatory BR government margin applied to all imported goods
Net sales - $585 - The amount Sony receive from each PS4 sale

ICMS - $222.43 - an importation tax applied to the $585 figure
PIS - $14.68 - a consumer tax applied to the $585 figure (Sony BR will claim this back)
COFINS - $67.62 - a consumer tax applied to the $585 figure (Sony BR will claim this back)
Gross - $889.73 - total cost to import one unit
IPI - $444.87 - a tax applied on gambling goods on the import price of $889.73
ICMS-ST/ - $223.12 - a tax on the $889.73 import price

Gross+ST - $1557.72 - final price of one PS4 unit to Sony BR

Dealer net cost - $1475.42 - Gross+ST less the consumer taxes PIS+COFINS
Retailer margin - $281.03 - 16% retail margin applied to the above figure
PIS - $31.94 - consumer tax applied to the sale price of $1756.46 (Dealer cost+retail margin)
COFINS - $147.10 - consumer tax applied to the sale price of $1756.46 (Dealer cost+retail margin)

Final retail price - $1935.49 - the four figures from above added up

Max suggested price - $1818.18 - MSRP
Adjustment - $117.31 - Sony discounting their margin to hit a strategic price point.

allansm said:
The retail and distributor profit margins total R$857, that's about $400 dollars in profit! The profit alone is enough to buy a PS4.
Click to expand...

The distributor profit is refunded. The retailer profit does not go to Sony.

reptilescorpio said:
Thanks for that, makes a lot more sense to me now. I agree with the logic that Sony will look to build the PS4 userbase later on once costs come down due to the condition of the market as well.
Click to expand...

I think the key for them will be retooling the PS3 assembly lines for PS4 assembly at some point in 2014/15.

AranhaHunter said:
LOL

Sorry, but to fix Brazil we would have to go back in time and have it be rediscovered and repopulated. The issue is not as simple as voting for different politicians.
Click to expand...

D:
 
U

Unai

Member
General Choomin said:
This just means that PC is a better choice to make. Steam is gonna be huge next gen in Brazil!

Also, how much do HDTVs cost in Brazil and what is the rate of households who own HDTVs?
Click to expand...

Steam is already pretty big in Brasil.

I don`t have hard data on HDTVs, but anecdotally speaking, I don`t have any friend who doesn`t own a HDTV. They cost from $400.00 to $3000.00, or so.
 
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