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[The_Intruder]

Guys what do you think about this:

https://twitter.com/ShinenGames/status/402722224995434496

Shin'en Multimedia ‏@ShinenGames

@GoldMetalSonic Since FRN we use 4-8k textures. Means hyper real graphics but 16x storage. Happy this is no prob on WiiU eShop

 

[The_Lump]

Guys what do you think about this:

https://twitter.com/ShinenGames/status/402722224995434496

I think the term "hyper real graphics" will send this thread into an un-recoverable hype/backlash/troll death-spin and we'll all end up in tears.

Spoiler

Honestly, doesn't really reveal much new about WiiU I don't think, but good spot.

 

[tipoo]

Guys what do you think about this:

https://twitter.com/ShinenGames/status/402722224995434496

I don't think that's particularly different than other games. I think Rage used 8K textures iirc? And there were 8K texture mods for Skyrim. In a much smaller world than skyrim I'd imagine more games are using that already.

Here's a comparison of 2k to 4k to 8k. You'll notice, 2k to 4k is notable, then 4k to 8k it's hard to tell unless you don't blink

http://www.anandtech.com/Gallery/Album/1461#3

 

[HTupolev]

I don't think that's particularly different than other games. I think Rage used 8K textures iirc? And there were 8K texture mods for Skyrim. In a much smaller world than skyrim I'd imagine more games are using that already.

Rage has gigantic textures, but not in exactly the sense that we're talking about here. Rage can have a massive texture, where bits and pieces of it get streamed in as needed. It's a cool tech which allows for high-quality, diverse textures to be used over a large contiguous area... though its implementation also resulted in tons of nasty texture pop.

8K texture mods for Skyrim? On PCs with vram measured in gigabytes, sure, that's no problem.

People are excited because the WiiU is being claimed to manage these textures reasonably well, despite being lumped into the same horsepower ballpark as PS360. Those consoles usually don't sport terribly high-quality textures.

 

[pottuvoi]

Rage has gigantic textures, but not in exactly the sense that we're talking about here. Rage can have a massive texture, where bits and pieces of it get streamed in as needed. It's a cool tech which allows for high-quality, diverse textures to be used over a large contiguous area... though its implementation also resulted in tons of nasty texture pop.

Indeed, textures were up to 128000x128000, they are huge.

The 4k and 8k texture people use with Rage is the texture atlas size used to stream the texture into so GPU can access them and has nothing to do with actual size of the texture.

8K texture mods for Skyrim? On PCs with vram measured in gigabytes, sure, that's no problem.

Depends if some silly people use a 8k textures for an arrow.

 

[OryoN]

Most PS360 games used 512 x 512 and 1k x 1k textures for the vast majority of notable assets(even lower for assets of lesser importance). So we're talking 8 to 16 times larger/more detailed textures. IF they are being used in the same manner(as a 'common' res for important in-game assets), then that is incredibly impressive, even by PC standards.

IF that's the case, it would just underscore a statement Ancel made about the console's ability to handle huge textures:

I think the console is quite powerful. Surprisingly powerful. And there’ a lot of memory. You can really have huge textures, and it’s crazy because sometimes the graphic artist – we built our textures in very high-dentition. They could be used in a movie. Then we compress them, but sometimes they forget to do the compression and it still works! [Laughs] So yeah, it’s quite powerful.

http://nintendoeverything.com/rayma...y-powerful-legends-using-new-lighting-engine/

People kinda dismissed his comments based on the type of game Ancel was known to be working on at the time, for Wii U(2D Rayman). However, he was simply sharing his experience with the hardware(who knows what else they might had been working on?), and the bottom line was that the capabilities actually surprised him, in a good way!

Whatever is going on in this little machine - with it's ability to punch above its weight - it doesn't seem like it's totally obvious until devs spend a bit of time with the hardware. Some seemed genuinely surprised/impressed afterward. I'm excited to see future Wii U games.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

does Latte have some kind of custom logic that handles moving textures back and forth between the DDR3 and eDRAM?

maybe there's a level of automation going on that's making it easier to utilise the system's full potential, rather than having to manually juggle between the two?

we also know Nintendo uses some form of proprietary texture compression, so maybe this is also something the hardware does on its own?

 

[tipoo]

For some comparison, the PS4 die shot

Note differences in size of components are probably down to 28nm vs 45nm and layout optimizations.

 

[ozfunghi]

Can't say I agree. The "holding its own" in third party cross platform titles usually means being on par, a few being slightly better a few being slightly worse. Looking at these games and thinking the Wii U can at least match the PS360 seems fallacious to me, since those cross platform games aren't the technical peak of those two consoles. The U has not produced either third party games with notably better visuals than the PS360, nor first party games that exceed the peaks of the 7G consoles (ie, what on the Wii U shows the scope of God of War 3, or the impressive rendering of Halo 4, etc?).

I'm not saying this proves it's inferior, just that the evidence at this point, imo, is lacking that it's superior (other than having a bit more than twice the RAM for games)

Comparing 1st year WiiU titles vs 5-7th year PS360 titles... and you find they're in the same ballpark. Go back to first year PS360 titles and compare those to those same 5-7th year titles on those platforms. Knowing full well that WiiU multiplat games were made by small, often outsourced teams with no experience on the hardware, which was not even fully documented at the time and never as lead platform (except for lost exclusives). All while the games are running Vsync. One can only wonder how well X or Bayo2 or W101 would run on PS360 if they could ever be ported over by small teams on a budget.

It's funny how, again, in the topics of the next-gen twins, people are already savoring over what those consoles will be able to produce in 4 or 5 years, if they can "already" output games like KZ now. Yet whenever somebody makes that case for WiiU, it's disregarded or "the situation is different". WiiU maxed out day1 (and yet AC4 seems to look so much better than AC3 in screenshots at least).

 

[tipoo]

...

Again, I just said I personally find the evidence lacking. I made no claim of what it will produce in 5 years.

Although, to your other point, yes there is a difference. Shadowfall shows with zero doubt that the new consoles can do things the PS3 could not. The Wii U had over a year after that, and still nothing that I personally think could absolutely not be done on PS360, visually.

 

[Clockwork5]

Aguain, I just said I personally find the evidence lacking. I made no claim of what it will produce in 5 years.

Although, to your other point, yes there is a difference. Shadowfall shows with zero doubt that the new consoles can do things the PS3 could not. The Wii U had over a year after that, and still nothing that I personally think could absolutely not be done on PS360, visually.

Ps360 could not run SM3DW locked at 60fps. Those systems can't lock anything at 60/720.

 

[LordGouda]

This pop in kind of hurts my eyes.

Is this more based off the engine limitations or what? I think the Wii U, even Nintendo, can do something to have prevented this sort of pop in.

 

[Bony Manifesto]

This pop in kind of hurts my eyes.

Is this more based off the engine limitations or what? I think the Wii U, even Nintendo, can do something to have prevented this sort of pop in.

It's more limitations of reality. Even on the most powerful hardware, you can't draw everything, and you have to decide which objects to cull or replace with low-detail versions.

I will say I think Nintendo's failing with that scene in particular is that it's a worst-case scenario, and they've not made any attempt to try to minimise its appearance, which is something they're usually pretty good at. Like having Mario fly through cloud layers or having something going on in the foreground to attract the player's focus.

 

[tipoo]

Ps360 could not run SM3DW locked at 60fps. Those systems can't lock anything at 60/720.

Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance? Just to think of one off the top of my head. Silky smooth 60fps.

 

[krizzx]

Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance? Just to think of one off the top of my head. Silky smooth 60fps.

Not when I played it on my PS3.

Also, didn't the dev of Trine 2 explicitly state that the Director's Cut for the Wii U could not run on the PS3/360 without downgrades back at launch?

Comparing 1st year WiiU titles vs 5-7th year PS360 titles... and you find they're in the same ballpark. Go back to first year PS360 titles and compare those to those same 5-7th year titles on those platforms. Knowing full well that WiiU multiplat games were made by small, often outsourced teams with no experience on the hardware, which was not even fully documented at the time and never as lead platform (except for lost exclusives). All while the games are running Vsync. One can only wonder how well X or Bayo2 or W101 would run on PS360 if they could ever be ported over by small teams on a budget.

It's funny how, again, in the topics of the next-gen twins, people are already savoring over what those consoles will be able to produce in 4 or 5 years, if they can "already" output games like KZ now. Yet whenever somebody makes that case for WiiU, it's disregarded or "the situation is different". WiiU maxed out day1 (and yet AC4 seems to look so much better than AC3 in screenshots at least).

The differences in AC4 on the Wii U and the other consoles are indeed undeniable.

 

[Van Owen]

This pop in kind of hurts my eyes.

Is this more based off the engine limitations or what? I think the Wii U, even Nintendo, can do something to have prevented this sort of pop in.

Yeah, this game sounds like the best Wii U game yet, but I don't see why people are trumpeting it as a step above 360/PS3.

 

[tipoo]

Not when I played it on my PS3.

The 360 stuck closer to 60, but yes they did have dips during heavy battles with lots of explosions going off everywhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4599MBazNH8#t=80

I'd be interested in seeing one of those for the new Mario, but DF seems woefully uninterested in anything exclusive to the U.

But on the other hand, nothing you can do in 3D World seems to come close to how much carnage is going on during those framerate dips.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

This pop in kind of hurts my eyes.

Is this more based off the engine limitations or what? I think the Wii U, even Nintendo, can do something to have prevented this sort of pop in.

that's really weird, I mean they certainly could have replaced the trees with flat sprites at a distance or something...

 

[Effect]

This pop in kind of hurts my eyes.

Is this more based off the engine limitations or what? I think the Wii U, even Nintendo, can do something to have prevented this sort of pop in.

I love how the bushes are dancing in that.

 

[ozfunghi]

Again, I just said I personally find the evidence lacking. I made no claim of what it will produce in 5 years.

Although, to your other point, yes there is a difference. Shadowfall shows with zero doubt that the new consoles can do things the PS3 could not. The Wii U had over a year after that, and still nothing that I personally think could absolutely not be done on PS360, visually.

No because the core of your argument is not earnest. Two reasons: 1/ because WiiU has not been maxed out 2/ because it is not that much more powerful to overcome the first obstacle (unlike PS4). The point is that WiiU had not enough time and effort put in, to prove it can outperform the older consoles after they had been maxed out. The fact that PS4 can outperform them does merely prove PS4 is more powerful than WiiU, and more powerful than the old consoles. It does not prove anything about WiiU being more powerful than the old consoles or not. So no. It is not different.

Again, when Y1 games go toe to toe with Y5+ games from PS360, you know it will improve and outshine those in a few years. Is it "proof" as you say, no, but it's comon sense and logic. You can't prove something before it happened.

 

[tipoo]

You can't prove something before it happened.

And a third time, I'm not trying to. I merely said nothing that I've seen right now tells me anything about how much better it is. No more, no less, so stop trying to infer what I'm saying and put words in my mouth.

The shadowfall example I only brought up because you did. It shows me with zero doubt remaining that the PS4 can do a lot more than the PS3, and I said I'm waiting for that on the Wii U. That's it.

Back to Mario though, everyone seems to be oohing and aahing over the bright colors and lens flares, and the real time lighting is nice, but the game worlds are small and simple, there isn't much foliage or geometry to render, so looking at it running at 60fps and claiming that's a testament to the Wiis power doesn't do it for me.

 

[LordGouda]

It's more limitations of reality. Even on the most powerful hardware, you can't draw everything, and you have to decide which objects to cull or replace with low-detail versions.

It's weird considering that the cannon is fully rendered in the back, or it appears to be fully rendered, even with the foliage not even there.

that's really weird, I mean they certainly could have replaced the trees with flat sprites at a distance or something...

Or covered it with mist so when you go to it, the console or the engine can properly load them in as you go towards it.

I love how the bushes are dancing in that.

Yeah, it's cute.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Again, when Y1 games go toe to toe with Y5+ games from PS360, you know it will improve and outshine those in a few years.

There can be two reasons why first year games are going toe to toe with mid-range PS3/XB titles.

1. Wii U is significantly more powerful and matching the older systems is a trivial task. As the years pass, more knowledge of the system will yield enormous gains.

2. Wii U is similar enough to the older systems that knowledge gained from those previous machines allow one to quickly maximize its potential early and match or slightly exceed the older systems. As the years pass, more knowledge will only yield marginal gains.

I'm leaning towards option 2 for the following reasons.

a. The TDP indicates this is a very low power GPU and just does not have the room to expand much performance-wise.

b. The system has only double the RAM (1 GB) of the previous generation and it is generally considered very slow compared to XB1 and PS4.

What we are seeing now is a more modern, feature rich, very low power, efficient GPU generating graphics slightly better than the previous generation. It seems to be optimized to run last generation engines as efficiently as possible. Coupled with a doubling of RAM, games tailored to the system will indeed show an improvement from last gen. That is not in question. What is in question is just how big an improvement can we see over time?

Very little. I do not see the Wii U making huge gains in performance over time as you will see with the PS4. You will only see small gains. Which knowing fans of the system will be blown out of proportion and will be heralded as the second coming. Simple lighting effects will be touted as ray-tracing and whatnot.

Let us not kid ourselves, its terms of power this machine was designed to provide 7th gen performance and not much more.

 

[BlockheadBrown]

There can be two reasons why first year games are going toe to toe with mid-range PS3/XB titles.

1. Wii U is significantly more powerful and matching the older systems is a trivial task. As the years pass, more knowledge of the system will yield enormous gains.

2. Wii U is similar enough to the older systems that knowledge gained from those previous machines allow one to quickly maximize its potential early and match or slightly exceed the older systems. As the years pass, more knowledge will only yield marginal gains.

I'm leaning towards option 2 for the following reasons.

a. The TDP indicates this is a very low power GPU and just does not have the room to expand much performance-wise.

b. The system has only double the RAM (1 GB) of the previous generation and it is generally considered very slow compared to XB1 and PS4.

What we are seeing now is a more modern, feature rich, very low power, efficient GPU generating graphics slightly better than the previous generation. It seems to be optimized to run last generation engines as efficiently as possible. Coupled with a doubling of RAM, games tailored to the system will indeed show an improvement from last gen. That is not in question. What is in question is just how big an improvement can we see over time?

Very little. I do not see the Wii U making huge gains in performance over time as you will see with the PS4. You will only see small gains. Which knowing fans of the system will be blown out of proportion and will be heralded as the second coming. Simple lighting effects will be touted as ray-tracing and whatnot.

Let us not kid ourselves, its terms of power this machine was designed to provide 7th gen performance and not much more.

I don't take your opinions as fact. Also, this is the GPU thread, not the CPU thread.

 

[LeleSocho]

Very little. I do not see the Wii U making huge gains in performance over time as you will see with the PS4. You will only see small gains. Which knowing fans of the system will be blown out of proportion and will be heralded as the second coming. Simple lighting effects will be touted as ray-tracing and whatnot.

Let us not kid ourselves, its terms of power this machine was designed to provide 7th gen performance and not much more.

Kinda OT but god how i hate when this happens... if it was for me that alone would be ban-worthy.

 

[ozfunghi]

And a third time, I'm not trying to.

I know you're not trying to. I'm saying that's what you appeared to be asking from those who believe WiiU games will improve over time or who believe "it's more powerful than PS360". But that doesn't mean logic dictates at one point it will prove it. I'm not putting words into your mouth. I was merely stating you are basing your view on an -as of yet- unfair comparison (WiiU 1st year VS PS360 5th-7th year software). That's all.

There can be two reasons why first year games are going toe to toe with mid-range PS3/XB titles.

1. Wii U is significantly more powerful and matching the older systems is a trivial task. As the years pass, more knowledge of the system will yield enormous gains.

2. Wii U is similar enough to the older systems that knowledge gained from those previous machines allow one to quickly maximize its potential early and match or slightly exceed the older systems. As the years pass, more knowledge will only yield marginal gains.

I'm leaning towards option 2 for the following reasons.

a. The TDP indicates this is a very low power GPU and just does not have the room to expand much performance-wise.

b. The system has only double the RAM (1 GB) of the previous generation and it is generally considered very slow compared to XB1 and PS4.

What we are seeing now is a more modern, feature rich, very low power, efficient GPU generating graphics slightly better than the previous generation. It seems to be optimized to run last generation engines as efficiently as possible. Coupled with a doubling of RAM, games tailored to the system will indeed show an improvement from last gen. That is not in question. What is in question is just how big an improvement can we see over time?

Very little. I do not see the Wii U making huge gains in performance over time as you will see with the PS4. You will only see small gains. Which knowing fans of the system will be blown out of proportion and will be heralded as the second coming. Simple lighting effects will be touted as ray-tracing and whatnot.

Let us not kid ourselves, its terms of power this machine was designed to provide 7th gen performance and not much more.

What exactly makes you think PS4 could make bigger leaps than WiiU? Obviously, if anything, WiiU is more exotic and less documented. What makes you think it is similar to PS360 in design. These threads have proved just that, that it clearly isn't.

I believe WiiU will improve just as much as PS4, relatively. Ofcourse, if the PS4 improves "10%", that 10% will be "bigger" than the 10% the WiiU, because WiiU's performance is "smaller" to begin with. Other than that, every system goes through this. Just because devs have been making these level graphics for longer doesn't mean they understand the hardware better. By that logic, handheld graphics couldn't improve over the systems life.

You should see the leap from AC3 to AC4 on WiiU.

 

[fred]

Yeah, this game sounds like the best Wii U game yet, but I don't see why people are trumpeting it as a step above 360/PS3.

Not sure if serious...

...even if you ignore the 60fps framerate and v-synch, just take a look at how round everything is.

The Wonderful 101, Pikmin 3, Super Mario 3D World, Mario Kart 8, X, Bayonetta 2 and SSBU are all beyond the capabilities of the PS3 and 360 to reproduce without downgrading in some way.

 

[megabytecr]

The discussions about how Wii U games look in regards to PS360 is very very subjective and people claiming it is not more than PS360 will not be convinced, so this basically stays in circles... just my 2 cents

What amazes me is portraying SM3DW as this kind of simple game. Everything looks extremely round suggesting good geometry, and there are cases when there could be 4 characters from each player and lots of special effects going at the same time.

Yep nothing taxing going onscreen. Cannot wait to see this on my own TV.

And yet I have asked multiple times without answers. How does Wii U come up with taxing effects even on the PC like DOF and AO with only 160ALUs. I know that has been somewhat confirmed but I don´t understand. The AO in Zelda WW is beyond amazing, looking at that in motion, specially the boat is something to behold.

Very little. I do not see the Wii U making huge gains in performance over time as you will see with the PS4. You will only see small gains. Which knowing fans of the system will be blown out of proportion and will be heralded as the second coming. Simple lighting effects will be touted as ray-tracing and whatnot.

Let us not kid ourselves, its terms of power this machine was designed to provide 7th gen performance and not much more.

The PS4 games look amazing, specially KZ SF, but if there is one console out of the 3 that could be maxed out faster is PS4. Every dev has only praise for that system as it is very easy to develop for and has PC similarities. On the other hand Wii U and XB1 use a different architecture, a small but very fast bandwidth memory pool next to a larger but slower pool. I am pretty sure XB1 and Wii U will have further improvements over time than PS4. Now don´t get me wrong, PS4 is one hell of a device, and actually getting the most out of the hardware from the start is a good thing.

Please note I am talking about gains in relative terms, it is pretty obvious by now for all members that Wii U is well below PS4 and XB1.

 

[Log4Girlz]

What exactly makes you think PS4 could make bigger leaps than WiiU?

1. The PS4 has dramatically more RAM than the previous generation. It is a monster leap. Streaming tech will allow developers to take full advantage of it with time. We all saw what could be done on ancient hardware with the right streaming technology. Case in point: GTAV.

Wii U only has double the RAM of last generation.

2. Dramatically higher TDP and performance ceiling. HUMA, strong GPGPU compute give developers a huge amount of flexibility to use the GPU in creative ways. The GPU in general is vastly more complex and power hungry than the Wii Us. So let us not pretend its GPGPU capabilities will be in the same league somehow.

Obviously, if anything, WiiU is more exotic and less documented. What makes you think it is similar to PS360 in design. These threats have proved just that, that it clearly isn't.

Low TDP already a fraction of last-gen systems with very similar raw performance. Esoteric design or not, sorry, there is little juice to squeeze out of this fruit.

I believe WiiU will improve just as much as PS4, relatively.

The only huge strides I see in Wii U games coming is if anything is given any kind of decent budget. So far, everything, and I mean everything on the Wii U screams "CHEAP". No real big budgets, no GTAVs or Uncharteds or Last of Us scale games. Which is why none of the Wii U games approach their graphics quality. Sure, some games show the inkling of better performance, and perhaps we prefer the art of simpler games. But let us not confuse that with performance.

I prefer the graphics of Galaxy beyond anything I have for PC. That doesn't make it in the same league. So far, nothing released on Wii U approaches the best of the 7th gen games. Not that they cant, they just haven't been released. So that's where the big "gains" will come from...the time and money to take advantage of the system. And even then we're talking about reaching the best of the 7th gen.

I see that you somehow believe that a 20 watt GPU has some huge amount of room for improvement because games perform marginally better on it than 7th gen systems, and assume like with other systems in the past, should improve greatly with time, as opposed to it being close to maxed due to developer knowledge gleaned over the last 8 years on similar performing hardware. You believe that this GPU must be mysterious, esoteric, alien compared to the 7th gen and this will magically allow developers who are knowledgeable in sorcery to make enormous gains in performance in league with what we can expect from the PS4. AC4 is probably close to the maximum any third party is going to wring out of the system, whether they try to or not.

To this I must say, I will let you dream.

 

[fred]

You believe that this GPU must be mysterious, esoteric, alien compared to the 7th gen and this will magically allow developers who are knowledgeable in sorcery to make enormous gains in performance in league with what we can expect from the PS4.

Nobody believes any such thing. What we do know for certain is that there's something going on under the hood because what we've seen so far with the likes of The Wonderful 101, Pikmin 3, Super Mario 3D World, Mario Kart 8, X, Bayonetta 2 and SSBU shouldn't be possible with a bog standard 160 ALU GPU running at 20-odd Watts.

You can call it 'magic', 'special sauce' or whatever you want but this isn't a normal GPU. All you have to do is look at the die shot and see that the ALUs are 90% larger than they should be to realise that.

And if you seriously think that the Wii U is anywhere near maxed out then you're more than a little insane lol

 

[Log4Girlz]

And if you seriously think that the Wii U is anywhere near maxed out then you're more than a little insane lol

So you believe there is a huge amount of room on a 20 watt GPU (and I'm being generous), with 160 shaders to improve performance-wise? Right. I'm the insane one :/

 

[iamaustrian]

So you believe there is a huge amount of room on a 20 watt GPU (and I'm being generous), with 160 shaders to improve performance-wise? Right. I'm the insane one :/

I guess X, some shinen game or Zelda U will be the first time we will really see the potential of the console.
Especially X looks already way beyond anything PS360. if all the stuff from the trailers is really realtime, that is.
but then again: monolith soft did xenoblade which looked unbelievable (for a wii game) and did some amazing stuff.

 

[Xun]

This pop in kind of hurts my eyes.

Is this more based off the engine limitations or what? I think the Wii U, even Nintendo, can do something to have prevented this sort of pop in.

Strange, but I'm not too concerned.

In my opinion that is the most unimpressive level graphically from what I've seen, but that's down more to artistic vision than anything else.

 

[prag16]

So you believe there is a huge amount of room on a 20 watt GPU (and I'm being generous), with 160 shaders to improve performance-wise? Right. I'm the insane one :/

The idea that the Wii U is the first console in the history of consoles to be just about maxed out from the get go... that is a sane stance to take? That's what you're saying?

 

[ozfunghi]

1. The PS4 has dramatically more RAM than the previous generation. It is a monster leap. Streaming tech will allow developers to take full advantage of it with time. We all saw what could be done on ancient hardware with the right streaming technology. Case in point: GTAV.

Wii U only has double the RAM of last generation.

2. Dramatically higher TDP and performance ceiling. HUMA, strong GPGPU compute give developers a huge amount of flexibility to use the GPU in creative ways. The GPU in general is vastly more complex and power hungry than the Wii Us. So let us not pretend its GPGPU capabilities will be in the same league somehow.

Errr... your logic... does not compute.

The question isn't about how much more RAM or TDP WiiU has or lacks compared to PS360. We already see games that are at least ON PAR with PS360 games. The question is how much developers will improve working on WiiU on the next 5 years, just like they improved working on other consoles over their lifespans. Or do you think PS3 and 360 had dramatically more RAM available after 6 years than in their first year? (Yeah, i know a couple of MB's were shaved off the OS).

So you believe there is a huge amount of room on a 20 watt GPU (and I'm being generous), with 160 shaders to improve performance-wise? Right. I'm the insane one :/

I'm baffled. And yes, i think at this point it's safe to say you are the insane one

Again, every console in history, has seen dramatically better looking games near the end of it's lifespan compared to early on. Be it NES, Genesis, N64 or PS2. Those consoles didn't draw more power from the wall than a WiiU, i believe. Neither did they have 1 or 2 GB of RAM. Yet developers improved their games, because they got accustomed to the hardware. Again, compare AC3 to AC4 on WiiU. Still within the first year of the console, not even 12 months in between. What are you arguing? You've ALREADY been proven wrong.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Errr... your logic... does not compute.

The question isn't about how much more RAM or TDP WiiU has or lacks compared to PS360. We already see games that are at least ON PAR with PS360 games. The question is how much developers will improve working on WiiU on the next 5 years, just like they improved working on other consoles over their lifespans. Or do you think PS3 and 360 had dramatically more RAM available after 6 years than in their first year? (Yeah, i know a couple of MB's were shaved off the OS).

The Wii U will not be seeing vast graphical improvements in the next 5 years. The type of performance on offer is similar to the 7th gen and that was an extended generation. Devs learned a lot about how to get the most power out of that era's machines.

Games are at least on par because the Wii U is just an Xbox 360 plus. Its like being impressed that an Xbox 360 with double the RAM was released as a new system and its graphics matched the 360. No kidding it does. No kidding that you see some improvements in graphics, as it has double the RAM. Don't expect much in 5 years, that tech has already seen its best years. The Wii U is not some fresh new face, its already a retiree.

I'm baffled. And yes, i think at this point it's safe to say you are the insane one
.

Your opinion borders on delusional.

 

[ozfunghi]

The Wii U will not be seeing vast graphical improvements in the next 5 years. The type of performance on offer is similar to the 7th gen and that was an extended generation. Devs learned a lot about how to get the most power out of that era's machines.

Games are at least on par because the Wii U is just an Xbox 360 plus. Its like being impressed that an Xbox 360 with double the RAM was released as a new system and its graphics matched the 360. No kidding it does. No kidding that you see some improvements in graphics, as it has double the RAM. Don't expect much in 5 years, that tech has already seen its best years. The Wii U is not some fresh new face, its already a retiree.



Your opinion borders on delusional.

At this point, you are just randomly typing words it seems.

Any way, this discussion is over.

 

[Log4Girlz]

At this point, you are just randomly typing words it seems.

Any way, this discussion is over.

Ubisoft has mentioned that moving forward, the Assassin's Creed series will become more "next-generation" vs. this cross-generation title. Let's see how the Wii U version stacks up then. I'd imagine since you're expecting huge strides on the order of AC3=>AC4 to continue, and that AC4 is not coming close to maxing the Wii U out, then future titles should run juuuust fine. Just wait for those huge increases to resolution, geometric detail, physics that'll blow AC4 out of the water.

 

[freezamite]

So you believe there is a huge amount of room on a 20 watt GPU (and I'm being generous), with 160 shaders to improve performance-wise? Right. I'm the insane one :/

Since when the room to improve on a hardware architecture is determined by the TDP?
The WiiU has a really different architecture than PS3/360, as much as different to those as the one found on the PS4.
The room to improve is BIG. Not as big as on the PS4 in terms of asset production, but in terms of engines is as big as that one without any doubts.

 

[prag16]

The Wii U will not be seeing vast graphical improvements in the next 5 years. The type of performance on offer is similar to the 7th gen and that was an extended generation. Devs learned a lot about how to get the most power out of that era's machines.

While the Wii U is in the same "power range" as the 7th gen consoles, it certainly isn't a great match in terms of architecture, strengths, and weaknesses.

In some cases techniques perfected on PS360 will apply to Wii U, but not always. Just look at the divergence between PS3 and 360. And they're in many ways more similar to each other than Wii U is to either of them.

I don't expect a relative leap the size of say Perfect Dark Zero to Halo 4 from Wii U.

But to claim it's already maxed out. Yes, as of now, YOU are the delusional one. Sorry.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Since when the room to improve on a hardware architecture is determined by the TDP?
The WiiU has a really different architecture than PS3/360, as much as different to those as the one found on the PS4.
The room to improve is BIG. Not as big as on the PS4 in terms of asset production, but in terms of engines is as big as that one without any doubts.

The TDP is a rough indicator of the type of performance we are going to get. Low powered part = low performance generally speaking. Couple this with the shader count. It is around 160 shaders. It is roughly based on AMD technology with customizations. AMD tech running at around 20 watts is just not going to do much, 160 shaders is just not a lot of shaders. There is only so much you can do with this kind of performance. Many of the lessons learned in the 7th gen are applicable to Nintendo's hardware. This is why performance is roughly on par out of the gate and no, there will not be the kind of huge gains as seen with the last gen. The difference between Xbox360/PS3 launch titles and their final round of software was monstrous. You will not see anywhere near this performance difference between Wii U launch titles and what will be released towards the end of its life. It simply will not be there. At the end of the day its a 160 shader part that is already nearly maxed.

If you expect huge gains in geometry, scene detail, resolution etc between AC4 and say, AC5 on the Wii U, then you will be sadly disappointed.

While the Wii U is in the same "power range" as the 7th gen consoles, it certainly isn't a great match in terms of architecture, strengths, and weaknesses.

In some cases techniques perfected on PS360 will apply to Wii U, but not always. Just look at the divergence between PS3 and 360. And they're in many ways more similar to each other than Wii U is to either of them.

I don't expect a relative leap the size of say Perfect Dark Zero to Halo 4 from Wii U.

But to claim it's already maxed out. Yes, as of now, YOU are the delusional one. Sorry.

The difference between games that launched with the 7th gen, and say, Last of Us is monstrous. Absolutely huge. The Wii U will see nowhere near the improvement. It is nearly maxed out. You will not see AC5 run at 1080p on the Wii U. You will not see geometric grass everywhere swaying to the wind with individual droplets being rendered. Not even at 720 p.

Now Ozfungi, by all means, if AC4 already has this on the Wii U, then please correct me. Show me the Wii U version of AC4 with the swaying geometric plants.

 

[Jrs3000]

The TDP is a rough indicator of the type of performance we are going to get. Low powered part = low performance generally speaking. Couple this with the shader count. It is around 160 shaders. It is roughly based on AMD technology with customizations. AMD tech running at around 20 watts is just not going to do much, 160 shaders is just not a lot of shaders. There is only so much you can do with this kind of performance. Many of the lessons learned in the 7th gen are applicable to Nintendo's hardware. This is why performance is roughly on par out of the gate and no, there will not be the kind of huge gains as seen with the last gen. The difference between Xbox360/PS3 launch titles and their final round of software was monstrous. You will not see anywhere near this performance difference between Wii U launch titles and what will be released towards the end of its life. It simply will not be there. At the end of the day its a 160 shader part that is already nearly maxed.

If you expect huge gains in geometry, scene detail, resolution etc between AC4 and say, AC5 on the Wii U, then you will be sadly disappointed.



The difference between games that launched with the 7th gen, and say, Last of Us is monstrous. Absolutely huge. The Wii U will see nowhere near the improvement. It is nearly maxed out. You will not see AC5 run at 1080p on the Wii U. You will not see geometric grass everywhere swaying to the wind with individual droplets being rendered. Not even at 720 p.

Now Ozfungi, by all means, if AC4 already has this on the Wii U, then please correct me. Show me the Wii U version of AC4 with the swaying geometric plants.

Wowwww, Nostradamus has spoken. We will not see anything better than today games from the Wiiu since the system is nearly maxed out.....

Anyway. Please explain why ps360 was dropped from Project Cars.

 

[Nostremitus]

To say that an abstract architecture is maxed out within the first year, even though games are looking much better on it than launch.... is a bit of a falacy...

The Wii u isn't going to ever outperform PS4 or Xbone, but to say that it has no room for improvement is either complete ineptitude or some console warrior bullshit...

 

[Log4Girlz]

Wowwww, Nostradamus has spoken. We will not see anything better than today games from the Wiiu since the system is nearly maxed out.....

Anyway. Please explain why ps360 was dropped from Project Cars.

Older architecture. I can't wait for a good looking racing game. Hopefully its either 1080p, or if its 720p then 60 fps.

Speaking of resolutions and framerates Let me ask you, do you think Assassin's Creed 4 on Wii U could be redone (say by Ubi with more tim and dedication, or Retro, whoever you think is a big talented developer), all exactly as is...but run in 1080p? What about 1080p/60fps?

 

[megabytecr]

If you expect huge gains in geometry, scene detail, resolution etc between AC4 and say, AC5 on the Wii U, then you will be sadly disappointed.

Now Ozfungi, by all means, if AC4 already has this on the Wii U, then please correct me. Show me the Wii U version of AC4 with the swaying geometric plants.

You are very confident. There are so many variables we don't know.

1. How will the move from devs to PS4/XB1 affect Wii U development? For all we know PS360 might as well hurt Wii U ports.
2. How will the move to using mostly deferred techniques affect Wii U (Shinen will show there new game using a deferred engine)
3. AC4 and somewhat CoD have shown some high res assets, how will the Wii U handle better assets. We already have a comment by Shinen that they are using 4k-8k textures.
4. If Wii U keeps getting the lesser teams we might still have problems but even them will have more time with the Hardware.

I think that cross gen development has hurt the Wii U's power perception, as the power difference in the Wii U is not achieved through brute force but taking advantage of the memory/cache centric architecture. All in all I am happy we got the games but they ended as a double edge sword. Again and again in this thread it has been mentioned that Wii U is closer in architecture to PS4/XB1 than PS360.

If sales do not pick up we might end not knowing how everything might have worked for Multiplats, only by the first party offerings.

Older architecture. I can't wait for a good looking racing game. Hopefully its either 1080p, or if its 720p then 60 fps.

Speaking of resolutions and framerates Let me ask you, do you think Assassin's Creed 4 on Wii U could be redone (say by Ubi with more tim and dedication, or Retro, whoever you think is a big talented developer), all exactly as is...but run in 1080p? What about 1080p/60fps?

You are completely missing the point, when has resolution and framerate been the only measure of improvement? Wii U is built around 720p for the most part, so if you are expecting just bumps in resolution and framerate you have wrong expectations. Framerate I might expect by the amount of 720p60 first party efforts but resolution 1080p is out of reach for Wii U.

We can expect
- Higher textures
- DOF and better lighting
- Better shading techniques
- Performance enhancements

 

[fred]

Looks like everyone has saved me a lot of typing. Thanks.

Like I've already said before Log, it isn't a bog standard 160 ALU GPU running at 20-odd Watts. If it was those titles I listed earlier wouldn't be possible, the likes of Trine 2, Most Wanted and Project CARS wouldn't be possible. Even with twice the RAM available.

 

[ArchangelWest]

To speak metaphorically, if you throw a snowball very hard and graze someone on the side of their face it's going to hurt, but not be as damaging as it could be. That throw, with that snow ball, just could not be optimized perfectly according to the amount of energy put into it.

With that in mind, if you take another snowball, dip it in water, then throw it near dead center into someone's face with a little bit less force than the fluffy snowball that grazed, there's no comparison.

That is how 160 shaders (if that's even truly the number), and a less bulky CPU is enough on Wii U, how it is able to take junk code from the older systems and run them without much optimization or effort. It's how we have begun to see some great effects become standard at higher resolutions (for consoles of course), and why we will see the look of Wii U games improve well over time.

No one, even Nintendo has released a game yet where there is both full optimization, and the desire to push the console in mind. Unlike what we are seeing on PS4 which had one of their best teams working specifically on a graphics showcase game for release at launch.

The problem here is that people want to take that 'low' number, and speak to the lowest common denominator in general terms, without taking into account the fact that every Mhz and flop is different in terms of what a specific architecture specifically achieves with it. Especially when a machine has been purposely built with the idea of low wattage, high performance, 'Doing exactly what the paper says it can do', 'Punching above it's weight', etc.

Why not when the bottom line desire for such people is that they want as many people as possible to just skip Wii U and stick with PS360 until they want to upgrade to a PS4 or XBox One? That's what it always comes down to when people go that far out of their way to minimize something in the minds of people who like it on these boards. Console war B.S.

 

[freezamite]

Older architecture. I can't wait for a good looking racing game. Hopefully its either 1080p, or if its 720p then 60 fps.

Speaking of resolutions and framerates Let me ask you, do you think Assassin's Creed 4 on Wii U could be redone (say by Ubi with more tim and dedication, or Retro, whoever you think is a big talented developer), all exactly as is...but run in 1080p? What about 1080p/60fps?

And why are you constantly reducing graphics to framerate and resolution? In other words, could AC4 be rebuilt using geometry shaders, tessellation and a deferred rendering in order to improve the polygon count and the amount of real time lights?
Yes, that could be done on the WiiU and is not supported on current gen engines.

 

[Hermii]

The discussions about how Wii U games look in regards to PS360 is very very subjective and people claiming it is not more than PS360 will not be convinced, so this basically stays in circles... just my 2 cents

What amazes me is portraying SM3DW as this kind of simple game. Everything looks extremely round suggesting good geometry, and there are cases when there could be 4 characters from each player and lots of special effects going at the same time.

Yep nothing taxing going onscreen. Cannot wait to see this on my own TV.

And yet I have asked multiple times without answers. How does Wii U come up with taxing effects even on the PC like DOF and AO with only 160ALUs. I know that has been somewhat confirmed but I don´t understand. The AO in Zelda WW is beyond amazing, looking at that in motion, specially the boat is something to behold.



The PS4 games look amazing, specially KZ SF, but if there is one console out of the 3 that could be maxed out faster is PS4. Every dev has only praise for that system as it is very easy to develop for and has PC similarities. On the other hand Wii U and XB1 use a different architecture, a small but very fast bandwidth memory pool next to a larger but slower pool. I am pretty sure XB1 and Wii U will have further improvements over time than PS4. Now don´t get me wrong, PS4 is one hell of a device, and actually getting the most out of the hardware from the start is a good thing.

Please note I am talking about gains in relative terms, it is pretty obvious by now for all members that Wii U is well below PS4 and XB1.

Off topic but I am pretty sure the ps4 wil have pretty mindblowing performance gains over time. I dont think any of the launch titles even use GPGPU or paralell processing or whatnot.

 

[fred]

*Makes a mental note never to have a snowball fight with ArchangelWest*

O