Absolutely the same concept with doubt.
I wonder what would hapen if criticisms arised about this issue in the romance industry.
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RPS ambushes Blizzard director for objectification of women in Heroes of the Storm
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Absolutely the same concept with doubt.
I wonder what would hapen if criticisms arised about this issue in the romance industry.
I've seen this so many times and it's just tired.
No one's trying to take away all your boobies away, they're just asking for a modicum of moderation and sensibility.
This "Artists should have absolute creative freedom and if you dare to say ANYTHNG to the contrary you'll destroy everything that makes them artists in the first place" thing is just pointless hyperbole. Please stop.
Well there are romance novels for men... Not all, just most fall under the category people in here keep bringing up. There are some written with men in mind though.
most women and most men are very very silly
She (I assume the author is female) is talking about the kind of "lol, women, amirite gaiz?" mentality you see being thrown around when men get together and the conversation turns toward women (See: OT).
It's not that these guys think that "women are silly" in general, but it's more the casual joking around and triviliazing the things women do as "inane" or "pointless", and then reinforcing this midset by sharing it with other men and agreeing with it when it's brought up.
The author is intentionally pointing out these subtle kinds of discrimination that's so benign people hardly think it's discrimination at all, when it, in fact, is.
Chicks literally do the same thing.
And it's unfair in that direction as well.
I mean do you enjoy it when your girlfriend makes fun of you for playing so much video games? Or why you're spending so much time on GAF arguing with nerds?
EDIT: Well, that's not the right example, because there's a tacit agreement between couples and friends/family that allows them more room to nitpick each others' habits than between strangers. If your SO is okay with it, you can crack a few jokes at their expense, but you probably shouldn't assume every stranger is okay with it.
But that's not the point at all. Of course they can create what they want, the question is WHY do so many video game artists only create simple cheap sexualised female characters?
Was Blizzard's response posted? http://www.heroesofthestorm.com/en-us/news/11751531/on-character-design
I don't care and if this is what we're defining sexism as, then sexism has no definition.
No, but then I tell my friends, "my silly gf hates when I play video games" and she tells her friends, "all he does is play video games"
Our interactions with the opposite sex is something that same sex people can relate too. They're usually just a simple way to talk about frustrating things that we go through. Its not some huge conspiracy to kepp others down, we're just shooting the shit. It would be like if we talked about silly bosses, or teachers. Its something that people can relate too
Our interactions with the opposite sex is something that same sex people can relate too. They're usually just a simple way to talk about frustrating things that we go through. Its not some huge conspiracy to kepp others down, we're just shooting the shit. It would be like if we talked about silly bosses, or teachers. Its something that people can relate too
Also, my gf loves video games about as much as me, I would never date someone who was that vain about my hobbies
TaroYamada
Member
I think what he's saying is these terms "problematic", "issue" used so often by feminists... They're subjective, people who are using them tend to state them as fact; that the subjects are objectively flawed in this specific manner and that's just not the case.
I don't find anything problematic with the depiction of females in DotA 2, DoA, or most games in general, I don't have an issue with those depictions in the least and actually enjoy them for the most part. I acknowledge some people may have an issue with those things but I just don't care, in the same way I don't care about Jack Thompson complaining about video game violence.
shanshan310
Member
Oh no! Not da feminists!!
Freeman
Banned
I wonder what would happen to woman if not for RPS and some gaffers, poor gals they are so defenseless, they need real man to protect them from those who only wan't to exploit their beauty...
If the biggest problem woman had today, was to be their portrayal or lack of representation on video games we would live in a much better world, unfortunately there are countries where woman are actually treated as inferior citizens and actively discriminated and abused.
Also, men are objectified in many things that are targeted at woman, I don't know why this get blow out of proportion in games.
If the biggest problem woman had today, was to be their portrayal or lack of representation on video games we would live in a much better world, unfortunately there are countries where woman are actually treated as inferior citizens and actively discriminated and abused.
Also, men are objectified in many things that are targeted at woman, I don't know why this get blow out of proportion in games.
I can tell from your avatar that you're an expert on these matters
If you don't care then why argue about it?
And while this is also an issue that needs to be addressed, it's not the topic being discussed here and distracts from being able to discuss the topic at hand.
jim-jam bongs
Member
I totally agree that this is an issue which needs to be considered more carefully, but I think RPS may want to pick their battles better.
To answer the question implied by paragraph 2, please refer to paragraph 1.
To answer the question implied by paragraph 2, please refer to paragraph 1.
okay
In order of appearance:
"lol white knights"
"there are bigger problems and everyone knows we can only talk or think about one problem at a time"
"it happens to me too and I'm not crying about it"
TaroYamada
Member
I don't care about the complaints, I care about the effect the complaints could have on the series and games I enjoy. Much like I would voice my approval for video game violence to a certain degree despite not caring for Jack Thompson's, or other anti-video game violence advocates', critiques.
Thanks for your quality contribution to this thread.
shanshan310
Member
I don't think white knighting is actually what is happening here, and suggesting that the only reason these issues are being brought to light is because some men want to use that to get into women's pants is missing the point.
Because games aren't targeted at men. There is nothing remotely masculine about mobas in particular, and actually I've found that many of my female friends play mobas. The moba community at my university is about 50/50 men/women. Additionally, the objectification of men in things like erotic novels and fireman calendars or whatever is not reflective of the power structures of society.
There is still discrimination happening in the first world. Women are objectified and over sexualised in almost all forms of media and in society in general. Lack of representation, or only sexualised representation in video games is one aspect of this. You might say that there are bigger things to worry about, but from the number of articles, blogs etc discussing it can you see that it is important to a large number of people?
guys TaroYamada isn't offended, so there's pretty much no reason to discuss this issue further
TaroYamada
Member
I'm sorry, you're either strawmanning or your reading comprehension needs to be brought into question. I'm all for the topic being discussed in a cordial manner, nowhere did I even infer the discussion should be shut down.
Freeman
Banned
That is low man, its clear my third paragraph was referring to the first one not the second.
If you are quoting me, do it properly.
what?
CrazedProfessional
Member
Fantasy stereotypes are probably going to be some of the hardest stereotypes to kill. I mean, it makes some of you sigh and shake your head sure but man, stuff like sexy elves and archers have been around for ages.
I can totally understand why RPS would ask that question but Video Games journalists go about these questions all wrong, they're asking the wrong people and they're coming off as annoying back-seat drivers rather than thought-provoking acquaintances.
I can totally understand why RPS would ask that question but Video Games journalists go about these questions all wrong, they're asking the wrong people and they're coming off as annoying back-seat drivers rather than thought-provoking acquaintances.
Freeman
Banned
Maybe I misunderstood what you said, sorry.
When you use discrimination in this context you devoid the word from its true meaning.
Its not discrimination to not be represented in video games or to be represented in a way that doesn't please you, I'm from Brazil, you won't ever see me complaining that there isn't enough latinos represented in games or how we are portrayed (usually they go way off target, half the time they will have us speaking Spanish or some strange variation of Portuguese, but its understandable).
Maybe I shouldn't have brought up the white knight angle, I'll admit. It just bothers me that usually the ones complaining are males.
We have many games that actually do a great job of portraying female characters, instead of confronting people that don't share your vision, perhaps it would be better to promote the games you think do a good job at it.
One thing I also don't get is why Japan usually gets a free pass(well, Kojima didn't and no one actually saw his game yet, but still) , they have the most absurd sexualised representations of woman (not to mention little girls).
TaroYamada
Member
Japan doesn't, the Dragon's Crown debacle was highly unfortunate. You should find that thread if you think Japan gets a free pass.
CrazedProfessional
Member
Most don't seem to care, my assumption is that this sort of thing needs a bottom-up approach, not a top-down.
Does this apply to all media? Should I start bringing up examples of how black actors and east asian actors are pigeonholed into certain archetypes?
It is not discrimination to not be represented here or there. It is discrimination, however, if one such demographic or other aren't even considered, or when they are, turned into caricatures.
Women are like 10% of NeoGAF and other popular gaming forums/communities.
Can do both, it's not either/or.
Dragon's Crown Debacle: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=545124
The pointless argument over nothing in the FFXV cast reveal (around midway through the thread): http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=63879256
Dead Or Alive: Like, everything
Austriacus
Member
Actually i think asking the artist himself about his motivations would be more productive.
The Karasumori
Banned
Another sensationalists journalist looking for drama where there doesn't need to be.
I can answer that:
Samwise started his career drawing stuff inspired by D&D and other tabletop games, as well as the 80s fantasy aesthetic embodied in Conan the Barbarian. Thus, his art style was already founded on top of other mediums where female objectification is common. In his bio, he lists his inspiration as Frazetta, Larry Elmore, and Ernie Chan, all artists who took the same approach to drawing women. He strongly influenced the art direction of Blizzard's three major properties early on in their life to the point where his particular art style is synonymous (except to Warhammer diehards) with Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo to a lesser extent. He is now one of the Art Directors at Blizzard.
Why does he draw the way he does? He's always drawn it that way ever since he got into this business.
Dougstyles
Banned
If women make up 50% of the MOBA market, then why is this even an issue? They're clearly getting what they want out of the product. Perhaps because they can feel empowered by these characters, even if they are sexualized? Perhaps the sexuality itself can be a source of empowerment?
KyanMehwulfe
Member
Especially when it's based on a western concern and he chooses a highly international game.
The character example used for this game is absolutely ridiculous (in how tame and modest it is) compared to the female characters in most Chinese and Korean games. This is likely the most important market segment for any MOBA, so it's especially misplaced to use this type of international game for what is (fair or not) a more western concern.
It's a fair concern that they have ever right to express as a consumer. But it's effectiveness as an attempt at activism is mute.
shanshan310
Member
The characters aren't designed for women to relate to, they are designed to be sexy to men. There is nothing inherently wrong with having sexy characters but it can be frustrating if that's all there is to choose from and the game is basically screaming "HEY LOOK TITS, WE EXIST TO APPEAL TO MEN". Sexuality can be empowering, but in this case it is still objectification. Playing with some characters I do get a weird sense of both feelings. And if the characters are merely there for men to perve on, ultimately it's not empowering at all - it's quite the opposite. I think DOTA creates a nice balance, you have a range of women characters and not all of them have sex appeal.
lol, I wouldn't call that sexualised.
If you don't have an issue, then nobody can use the word issue? Nice one. :/
staticneuron
Member
That's not what was stated. It is pointed out that they are subjective. Or in another term, relative. The issue is that most try to paint a few peoples issue's as if it is something that needs to affect all.
Hence the constant need to assign meaning to everything in terms of absolutes. That is the first glaring sign of where discussions about this topic is headed. Anyone that points this out is either obtuse or trolling if we just don't see it in the same light. It gets tiring after a while.
The single thought that hey this (Alien/elf/witch) from this (insert fictional land here) is seriously affecting my ability to enjoy this game because I feel that it represents (insert personal issue here) doesn't seem off to people, is what bugs me the most about similar threads. This kinda reminds me of the Tiny Tina issue in Borderlands 2.
I understand if the setting was realistic, or the portrayal was supposed to be in a place that really existed past present or future, but there has to be a certain level of artistic freedom you should allow content creators before trying to assign a message to their creations.
Or, people may be unable to accept when people say something is problematic or an issue, the unspoken part is 'to the people negatively impacted'. Nothing is absolute. Expecting people to put qualifiers after incredibly basic words is utterly stupid.
The single thought that this character from this game is impacting some persons ability to play that unamed game is what bothers you?
Also, the bolded is kind of funny. The only people who deal in absolutes are the Sith and all that.
Anyway, keep on fighting those horrible absolutists, I guess.
There's quite a few girls in this thread already.
Sexuality can be, but it won't be in the same way for every woman. Hence why it's nice to have options. When a huge majority of the representations of your gender in a video game are not something you find empowering but the opposite, it's pretty depressing, yeah. More depressing to have people tell you you can't complain about it (or tell you to go back to playing with barbies as one lovely gaffer put it).
Nose Master
Member
She's right, every female character should be wearing a burka and have the curves of a 2x4.
Who's saying this?
spindoctor
Member
I would personally put Blizzard pretty far back in the line of developers who should be asked this question first. But either way, I would not want RPS to have anything to do with it. This is an important discussion that needs to happen in the games industry and the last thing you need is a site like RPS going on their shitty clickbaiting articles of madness. I mean read that interview... you can put down the flippant wording of questions to their unique 'style' of writing but at the end he stopped asking questions and straight up browbeating the guy. Commentary is for editorials and interviews are for questions. Don't know why that distinction has escaped RPS. I bet they're feeling really proud of their 'victory' because the Blizzard guy ended up apologizing. I don't think he needed to but I guess it's better PR to put out potential fires before RPS made it their new crusade de jour.
TaroYamada
Member
I'm not saying they need to put quantifiers, that's obviously a bit ridiculous. I'm saying that it occasionally seems that some supporters of this movement can act as though those terms and their issues with the content are factual. That can be demonstrated in the very argument that developers are somehow morally obligated to change their portrayal of x character, in this case Roller Derby Nova, when no such moral obligation objectively exists.
It's rather common amongst the feminist gamers that I've interacted with and can be found in this very thread. The reaction to my original statement, which you acknowledge yourself to be true (that these issues are subjective, with "to the people negatively impacted"), are demonstrative that some supporters do appear to believe that their issues with the content are factual rather than their personal experience with the content.
This was already replied to and I cannot tell whether you're being genuine or strawmanning my argument like Gryz did. If you're looking for a reply read staticneuron's, I find it satisfactory.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Yeah, you're exactly right. You know what? Why don't we extend this further? Game creators should have more freedom, so let's never ever criticize them for anything. Bad soundtrack? Let it be bad. Broken gameplay? Developers should have freedom to sell you garbage.
Dabookerman
Member
Only?
Firstly, a character being sexualised is a matter of opinion. Roller derby Nova isn't sexualised. She looks like a roller derby girl, which I believe is becoming a more popular sport these days.
The characters who -are- sexualised get far more attention for their design than those who aren't.
Characters both male and female can suffer from incredibly lazy design. Males suffer from this is much as females. Where's that everyone looks like Nathan Drake pic?