-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
RPS ambushes Blizzard director for objectification of women in Heroes of the Storm
- Thread starter usea
- Start date
jakonovski
Member
It's kind of the flipside of this coin, women need to be sexy and wear skintight pants, while male protagonists need to be white, short haired 30somethings.
The thing is though, not only do males get to be very different characters in games (the goofy one, the funny one, the smart one, the flirty one, ....), but they also come in a variety of shapes and forms more often than not. Especially considering fantasy creatures. But females are often just the "sexy hot chick", with the personality of a treestump. At least I gotta admit Kerrigan was an awesome girl in Starcraft (until they ruined her character with SC2, so now she is also just the damsel in distress...)
And yeah while RPS was targeting Blizzard here, I think if you just look at the games especially in the MOBA genre and take into account all the Korean and Japanese ones, they feature exactly this phenomenon. And then come the "bunny costume" DLCs....
Dabookerman
Member
Yeah exactly. It's incredibly lazy at worst.
I'm curious to know whether Jinx design get any outrage? I personally find her to be a very cool design..
The sexy hot chick/badasschick/cute chick etc is simply down to the fact guys design most of these and they design what they prefer to see? In the end, no one enjoys designing things they don't like/want to see.
Kerrigan, yeah I agree, but again, I'd put that down to poor writing/laziness. It was all down to making her playable in the next game in any case.
Anyhoo, I've noticed character designs tend to get the most outrage in games these days, when that isn't the biggest issue at all. The most important issue is getting more females in the industry, designers/artists etc. for one thing it would probably appease what many people have issues with in the first place.
shanshan310
Member
That's true, it would be nice to see more diversity all around. Although I don't know if MOBA men suffer from those kind of stereotype problems (at least in LoL and Dota). It's also important to note that both of those designs are made to appeal to the game's male audience.
Shake Appeal
Member
Many people have been saying that RPS accomplished nothing with this... and yet those same people and those like them have taken the time to post in this long thread (and others around the Internet), giving up their defensive, hostile thought and energy to at least engage with the issue and recognize it as one.
Meanwhile, Blizzard publicly apologized and suggested they will rethink how they do things and take into account everyone's feedback.
Yeah, this achieved 'nothing'.
Meanwhile, Blizzard publicly apologized and suggested they will rethink how they do things and take into account everyone's feedback.
Yeah, this achieved 'nothing'.
That is just PR. They will change absolutely nothing about their games.
I think the point is that that the sexy woman in a revealing costume and the Indy rip-off are both designed that way to appeal to men. I want to look at her and imagine I was him. Plus there are a lot of middle aged white guys designing aaa games and I guess it's not surprise that they write about protagonists who are middle aged white guys but with the ripped physique they always wanted.
Kadayi
Banned
The latin root has fuck all to do with it Vs the legal definition my friend: -.
Scenario: -
Guy has consensual sex with girlfriend, then she reveals that she is leaving him and he beats her up = not rape, but assault.
Girlfriend tells guy she is leaving him and he beats her up and forces her to have sex with him = rape with assault.
Simply saying 'there was sex and there was violence = rape' does not work without taking account of the sequence of events. Regardless of how one may view the reprehensibility of the violence actions. So yeah 'sequence is everything'
Please, the only thing it really achieved beyond generating some Tammy needs new shoes in time for Christmas 'outrage' clicks will be RPS getting themselves blackballed from further Blizzard events.
I don't get what your point is, because developers already have the freedom to do all those things.
Dabookerman
Member
That is probably what it comes down to. Get a variety of people designing characters and you'll get far different results.
It's pretty much the same comment Browder already gave in the interview.
jakonovski
Member
White male audience at that, I can't help but feel that the sexist undercurrent is accompanied by a racial one as well.
Wiktor
Member
Considering how huge MOBAs are in Asia I would say you're dead wrong.
jakonovski
Member
I'm not talking specifically MOBAs here.
Though I think the value of raising awareness is that creators might stop and ask themselves if they need to default to these types of representation. Other media show that good creators can think beyond their own experiences to create compelling protagonists that are very different to themselves.
shanshan310
Member
Oh definitely, it'd be nice to have a much wider slice of the population to play as in gaming. Even when they do try to add variety it often just ends up falling into silly stereotypes. I'd say it's a big problem across all forms of media.
yes, they should. Because you have freedom not to buy it.
Dabookerman
Member
I think it's already happening.
Other media have the luxury of having a much wider audience and being around for much longer. Popular big budget films run into similar issues in regards to characterisation and portrayals of women.
Because the games industry is still a young industry, and started off as a male dominated industry, actual change will be a very gradual process. More women are playing games, and of those women, more of them will be interested in joining the industry. Furthermore, games like The Last of Us and the newest Tomb Raider show that having "good" representation of females is becoming more viable and appealing. The fact is, characters aren't created to simply get a thumbs up from "feminists".
The issue I always have is the way character designs are approached by people who want to criticise them. No artist is against criticism. And they will take into account what people say. However, when that criticism becomes borderline hostile, that doesn't help anyone. It just causes internet arguments and hatred across all camps. I think using a lot of that frustration at how characters are portrayed and using it to create something positive is a much more proactive way of going about this whole situation.
I've seen so few people talk about what would make good female character design. It's all mostly been, "This character is awful/sexist/ridiculous etc".
http://www.heroesofthestorm.com/en-us/news/11751531/on-character-design
Dustin Browder 2016?
Dustin Browder 2016?
Sorry for the bump, but it's all a bit much, isn't it?
Wiktor
Member
Well..games are more international medium than movies though, so there's bound to be a lot less racial diversity in them outside of white/asian characters and there's nothing really bad about it. It's hard to expect somebody to make a black main character and do him well if the only black people he sees regularny are on tvs screen. This will change as more African and middle easter devs get off the ground, but for now it's pretty natural state.
HitokiriNate85
Member
This is the most reasonable response here, I think. There's nothing out of line or ridiculous about the question, but the context matters. PR motions that time is running low and then he decides to fire off some questions on a hot-button issue. That's journalism, sure, but it's doing it in a way that doesn't leave room for a real dialogue to take place. It's journalism that's looking for a fumbled quote and hits. I'm glad someone is asking those questions, but in this instance it's not being done in a constructive way. The interviewer knew time was low when he brought it up, and any reasonable consideration is going to tell you that isn't going to get you anywhere.
Do what antitrop suggests. That's reasonable. That can open up a discussion with artists about design, expectations and the value of sex and objectification in games. When you engage with someone about a sensitive subject you should approach it from a way that doesn't encourage defense mechanisms to kick in, but instead from a way that encourages further discussion.
Modestly dressed Nova dlc incoming
But seriously, I do wonder how you'd change someone like Nova into a female power fantasy, or for that matter, what a female power fantasy would look like
A Link to the Past
Banned
It's very clear that you don't see my point, because unless I've missed something, developers get a ton of fucking flak for making shitty games. I've never said that developers should not be allowed to make whatever game they want. But they don't have the right to not be criticized for any reason. If Blizzard wants to design their women in a sexual manner, then they also want people to target them for this.
TaroYamada
Member
They want to be targeted by feminists? What? So anytime somebody, or in this case an organization, partakes in something that could be construed as offensive in some circles they secretly desire that the offended parties will come after them?
The only thing is that Blizzard didn't do that. They made them look like badass, midevil characters. Even if you don't know a reason why a woman would want to expose a midriff, there's another point: why should any woman HAVE to give their reasons. Want a reason? She felt like it! Or maybe it was a trendy thing in that world or that setting or whatever for women to desire those types of outfits.
It's not as if Blizzard made any of the ladies in their games to have weak, submissive personalities that are not out of the characters they were designed to have (there are weak, submissive personalities in both genders). You know by watching what they do that they are strong and independent, so why should we doubt that they would wear those clothes as a sign of independence? Are we being just as sexist to tell them to cover up? If Blizz did also make these women weak out of their context while donning those threads, then I might see the point, but they are not. I don't think it detracts from the characters, but rather adds to the particular mid-evil like setting that Blizz likes to place the games in and adds that sense of coolness that they said they wanted in the games. It gives the sense of "hey, this is what I want to wear, and I dare you to tell me to put more clothes on".
Plus, regardless of what you may think of the morality, I'm not sure where in any of this we've lost that RPS did a disservice here. We get that they ambushed Blizzard here. There's no denying that because we know what an ambush is (a person trying to get an unscheduled interview by just running up to you and conducting one without even asking if they have any time or not, regardless of where they could be). Hell, those are very disrespectful to begin with because what if the person was with their families. But then the interviewer goes in there, wording the questions as if he's already got the agenda, and three times asked the exact same question a different way, and all the times, Bowden gave the same answer. And they called it "avoiding" them when he finally had enough of the bullying. It's yellow journalism at it's finest, and RPS has no shame in doing it if you read their editorial that only doubles down on the point that they already had disproven.
And why did they do this? They do know they would get hits, but WHY did they know that they WOULD? It's because it's the "thing" right now to complain about misogyny in games. Not to say that it doesn't exist or that nothing should be done when it pops up in games (to avoid getting the logic-breaking label "concern troll" thrown at me), but someone brought up the Tropes vs. Women series before me in this thread (thank you to whoever did that so I don't get accused of interjecting that into this, by the way), but I've noticed that a lot more people suddenly care about this because of that series. You might think that would be a good thing, but from what I've seen, and it's evidenced by this RPS crap, that those bandwagon hoppers don't really care about that issue, and just see it as because the series is popular, that they can coat tail the issue to score a mass amount of hit pieces by claiming misogyny where it doesn't actually exist, because we know enough people will bite on it without even doing their own research. It's like the people that blindly supported the War in Iraq on the basis that it had "something to do with 9/11" when Saddam hated al Quedia as much as we did!
If you really are motivated on those basis to do something or to question morals, then by all means. I don't question those people. But when you contradict yourself and you do what RPS clearly did, then you should be questioned as to what you're true motive is, because it sure as hell isn't to install a better representation of females in games.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I'm sorry, is Blizzard this one magic company that never has to answer for anything that they may do wrong?
Oh right, video game companies get a free pass if their games are fun. Blizzard is in the spotlight. Your argument right now is that Blizzard should benefit from this and never, ever have to experience the negatives.
A Link to the Past
Banned
What justifies the idea that this article in particular is one of the bad ones? When is the discussion of sexism or misogyny valid, and when is it invalid?
I don't know. Maybe that they kept pushing him like a waterboarded detainee to give them the answer they wanted to hear when they didn't like the (what I thought was fair) answer that he gave them!
And when is it valid or invalid? You remember the Simpson's episode when Marge complained about Itchy and Scratchy's violent nature and everyone sided with her, but when those people bitched about Michelangelo's David being displayed, Marge backed off of it because of her appreciation for true art? At the moment, Grayson, and those in this thread that are complaining about WoW female lore characters, are in that group complaining about David!
A Link to the Past
Banned
So what you're saying is that the people you disagree with are worth the same to you as cartoon characters (and as such have less value than you inherently).
>WoW female lore characters = Michaelangelo's David. Wow, the MRA's on here.
That's it? Seriously?
Well what about the other one?
I would admire RPS's guts for asking those questions if they were complaining about something that was actually over-sexualized. But whining about this? Really?
Did I ever say that everyone who disagreed with it were that? I said that we were overreaching currently, in my opinion. That's my own opinion, but I was using an example that I recall. Yes, it's fiction, but it also illustrates the point I was making: that I think it was too overreaching.
What does MRA have to do with ANYTHING?
shanshan310
Member
Okay, I'm lost. You think there isn't a lot of racial diversity outside the US?
The point was never "to get a thumbs up from feminists" and that you think it is suggests you don't really understand the argument. We aren't arguing for the sake of it, or because we're craaazzzy women. I'm arguing, at least, because I would like to sometimes be able to play characters that look like me and aren't cringeworthy boner-bait. I don't feel like I'm trying to be hostile, but it can definitely get frustrating when people don't understand.
MRA has to do with those 5 paragraphs of Blizzard sympathy you came up with earlier.
EchoedTruth
Banned
Good post
I'll just assume that you didn't really read any of that "Blizz sympathy" that came from someone who, you know, PLAYED all the Blizz games! Because I'm pretty sure MRAs never came up at ALL in my post!
A Link to the Past
Banned
You used a character from a cartoon show who wanted something banned from view as an analogue for the points that people make, of which not everyone wants a ban (in fact I'd venture to say that most people wouldn't support it).
There is nothing overreaching about expressing our dislikes to the appropriate people to express them toward. Unless you hold that we don't have the right to voice our criticisms.
The_Endgamer
Member
Sexualisation is not a problem but pretending like you're oblivious to it is pretty bad PR speak.
I mean that's like marketing the Kickass movies toward 5 year olds and saying you're not aware of the violence!
I mean that's like marketing the Kickass movies toward 5 year olds and saying you're not aware of the violence!
Keith Olbermann referenced a television show during his Special Comment on 9.11.2006 (he referenced The Twilight Zone's "Monsters Are Due On Maple Street"...go watch it on YouTube) to describe the Bush Administration's attitude towards detractors of their policies at the time. TV shows can be used as a basis for social commentary, and Simpsons has done that on other occasions, too.
And you're focused on the example I used, which I think is really telling (which is probably why you're trying to discredit the example; you know I have a point with that), and not on the point I was making with it, which is that I think that I think complaining about midriffs is somewhat overreaching in my mind.
I didn't say no one had the right to think that. The thing is that you didn't think anyone would disagree with it and use a rather valid example to describe the disagreement.
A Link to the Past
Banned
The disagreements have nothing to do with the merits of the argument and have everything to do with "HOW DARE!". Your "valid example" is of something no one has proposed.
You're getting the wrong idea of what I was trying to illustrate, then. Not that anyone wants anything banned, which you seem to be fixated on. It's on how some people do get carried away with their beliefs and think something is a problem when it really isn't. You think something like Jaina showing midriff could be an issue and detracts from her character. I think it doesn't and that it would be overreaching to think that it might, though we might both agree that something that is very extreme might be worth complaining about.
Oh, and about what the people in the Simpson's example complained about that Marge disagreed with them about: someone in real life DID have a problem with David being in a game: http://kotaku.com/fyi-butts-are-off-limits-in-nintendo-games-but-penise-489492010
Is there something else you want to claim I did in that post? Because I think I explained it three times now!
It's not about how much sexualized it is, I think RPS just asked because the first custom costume they show is of course for the female character making her more "cute/sexy" than before. But yeah, other games have it far worse. I'd say that's a typical case of pars pro toto though.
shanshan310
Member
If you think one character showing her midriff is what people are complaining about I can definitely understand why you think they are overreacting. Lack of variety and creating women characters that are designed only to be sexy isn't a blizzard only problem and no one is trying to pick on blizzard. It's across the board, and it has nothing to do with any kind of "beliefs". It seems to me like you merely want to dismiss the problem as irrelevant because you either can't see it, don't understand it, or aren't bothered personally by it. By all means, if you don't think it's worthy of discussion feel free to step out, but it's a real problem for many people. You calling them over-reacting Marge Simpsons doesn't make it any less so.
Blizzard did what all companies do, they apologize and then go back to doing whatever they were going to do in the first place. And these exact same threads have been popping up constantly for over a decade (or more), no one will even remember this issue in a month.
Right, because anyone who disagrees with you is an MRA.
You could you be any more fucking lazy and generic?
Wiktor
Member
There are few countries with as big racial diversity as US. There's UK and maybe France too. But there's generally a lot bigger diversity in nationalities in game industry than movie one. With movies the only country that makes blockbusters is USA, nobody else matters. Not so much in games. So it's just not realistic to expect similiar racial diversity in games as in movies, especially since african and middle eastern countries are far behind Europe and Asia in game development.
A Link to the Past
Banned
...Did you seriously overlook the fact that the Kotaku article was made in response to the censorship of Tharja's butt? The author felt that the aforementioned censorship was ridiculous and made an equally ridiculous complaint. Unless you think "a girl's butt in a bikini" is inappropriate for teenagers.
A Link to the Past
Banned
There are actually a lot of women that I see complain about it. But hey, go again and dismiss their existence because your argument lives and dies by whether or not they're real.