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[Manbig]

lololol these people. Thats why you can't talk about competitive anything with somebody who doesn't have the competitive mindset.

Vergil is scrubby. Random scrubs can get wins EASILY depending on game mechanics (xfactor) and character imbalance (vergil). There is no such thing as "smart" vergil play.

That ryu player is a scrub. You could lose to a scrub, thats fine. Scrub-busting is a skill that is needed in a tournament setting. There are players where you have to play completely stupid because they have no sense of risk/reward assessment. These are the same scrubs that complain about hadouken spamming and combo spamming. That ryu player probably doesn't even know why he won, he just mashed buttons and hoped for the best. Simple as that. There is no logic behind the shit he was doing.

Nope. I don't shake hands with anybody unless I am impress by their play. Even if I lose, if I think they are only slightly better than me or rely on gimmicks then fuck out of here. Shaking hands are only reserved for people that I respect and I don't respect shitty random play.

That Ryu player is not a scrub. The mentality behind a lot of your statements here are quite scrublike though.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C0F_aVAnFU

How could I forget this, this is basically the whole topic in one video.

Oh come on, not shaking hands after a match is a massive dick move. Of course no one can force a player to do it, but the salty player deserves to be called out on it / ridiculed afterwards by the fans.

Eh. As long as you acknowledge them at some point and are not outright disrespectful. I usually shake hands with my opponents before matches but whatever. I'm not offended at someone not bothering to shake hands with me either.

 

[CountAntonius]

Yes, and it's incredible to watch. You should check it out sometime.

You add goofy hats and all of a sudden people forget about how deep and team oriented this game is. TF2 is a lot of fun to watch at higg levels. Roaming soldiers are madmen.

 

[Ragingnight]

Sure there was. He was rushing the other guy down. Debate the soundness of his logic all you want, but that's surely what he was thinking. And hey -- it worked.

Kind of reminds me of Revolutionary War tactics. The British are all like, "Hey noobs, line up in the open so we can shoot you" and the Americans are all like "lol let's run around in the bushes."

lol? what a shitty analogy. He didn't rush anybody down. He was just mashing buttons. He didn't know why things work. In the American Rev. example, the Americans understood clearly what they were doing and why it worked. This guy had no idea why whiff jump RH into DP worked. The whiff jump RH was a mistake, not done on purpose.

 

[Neiteio]

Eh. As long as you acknowledge them at some point and are not outright disrespectful. I usually shake hands with my opponents before matches but whatever. I'm not offended at someone not bothering to shake hands with me either.

Hanlon's Razor -- "never mistake for malice that which can be explained by ignorance." Just because someone doesn't shake your hand doesn't mean they harbor ill will. They might just not be empathetic enough to perceive how their inaction comes off to others.

 

[EsotericManiac]

it makes way more sense to shake hands before the match rather than after.

 

[GenericJoe]

Those commentators are dicks. Way to shut people out of your community.

Yeah, that unfortunately was how I saw it, as an outsider to the whole fighting game scene. Even though the player was just some random dude, doing random stuff, the commentators laughing and mocking him the entire match was really unprofessional. I'd never want to be part of the fighting game community if elitist bullshit like that is par for the course. Fuck that noise.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Ironfist at least had fundamentals. Gandhi had lp xx lp dp and jump rh sweep.

 

[traveler]

Highly metagamed tcgs are susceptible to this as well. Decks are built to be consistent and face a metagame of other consistent decks. An absolutely cruddy deck with some janky combo can come out of nowhere and get some free wins at big tourneys because other decks just aren't built with the expectation of having to play against such terrible decks. They rarely win whole tourneys, though, since, being cruddy decks, they don't have the consistency to beat everyone, just the ability to get the odd surprise wins.

 

[Lost Fragment]

His claim that the mechanical skill ceiling is higher in RTS games than fighting games is one that could easily be argued, but he repeatedly falsely correlates game exposure/marketing/winnings with the skill on display in whichever game. The two have very little to do with one another.

Poker is more approachable in terms of mechanics than any of these games, and look at the mainstream appeal and prize winnings for that "sport."

Yeah, while it's pretty silly to say that this means the overall skill ceiling is higher, I think it's indisputable that the mechanical skill ceiling is higher in other games. Late 20s is considered pretty over the hill in RTS/MOBAs, right? Whereas in fighting games, you still have people like Daigo and Gamerbee and Infiltration who are competing at the very top level in their 30s.

Granted, it's also worth considering that since those other games have a lot more people playing and a lot more money on the line, the top players in those games might have to perform at a comparatively higher level to be at the top of the top. I'm not certain that the old school players in fighting games would be performing as well if the environment was like it was in "bigger" competitive games, though this isn't to say that fighting games wouldn't have that skill ceiling potential if that environment existed for them.

Especially Tekken. That fucking game holy shit.

 

[FairXchange]

The logic is flawed. If you're good at a game, don't classify someone that doesn't fall within that play style as a 'scrub'. Improve your damn game so that no one can beat you, whether they adopt the 'mechanics' and 'style' you consider legitimate or not.

 

[Neiteio]

lol? what a shitty analogy. He didn't rush anybody down. He was just mashing buttons. He didn't know why things work. In the American Rev. example, the Americans understood clearly what they were doing and why it worked. This guy had no idea why whiff jump RH into DP worked. The whiff jump RH was a mistake, not done on purpose.

Sloppy execution isn't the point; it's the logic this individual was following. It didn't conform to the tried-and-true mindsets of other tournament players -- lining up in the fields -- and so the pro player crumpled when he failed to adapt to something he didn't expect.

 

[Neiteio]

Yeah, that unfortunately was how I saw it, as an outsider to the whole fighting game scene. Even though the player was just some random dude, doing random stuff, the commentators laughing and mocking him the entire match was really unprofessional. I'd never want to be part of the fighting game community if elitist bullshit like that is par for the course. Fuck that noise.

While the commentary was terribly insubstantial, my impression wasn't that they were laughing at the "noob" so much as they were rendered speechless by how such out-of-left-field maneuvers were shutting down a by-the-book player.

 

[theprodigy]

His claim that the mechanical skill ceiling is higher in RTS games than fighting games is one that could easily be argued, but he repeatedly falsely correlates game exposure/marketing/winnings with the skill on display in whichever game. The two have very little to do with one another.

Poker is more approachable in terms of mechanics than any of these games, and look at the mainstream appeal and prize winnings for that "sport."

I bet he can't even qualify what he means by "higher mechanical skill ceiling" anyway

What's a street fighter's apm? I bet a dotaman presses more buttons in 10 seconds than any fighting game player does in a whole set!

Melee Fox can reach 300+ APM, Melee most skillful fighting game confirmed
(joking aside, it actually is up there though)

 

[kyoakuma]

what? how? He lost. That is the norm. LOL?



FUCK OUT OF HERE. You don't have to do jack shit and it shouldn't be held against you for not doing it.

Bull shit. Had he done that to me i would have talked so much trash to him as he walked away.

 

[Neiteio]

EDIT: Water under a bridge

 

[FinKL]

I thought the commentators were supposed to be unbiased? One of them was constantly trying to give the Rufus players tips (Bait the DP, He's not gonna throw you) even commenting on the Ryu player "he could of ultra'd that but of course he doesn't know about that",

Good for Gandhi, btw,

Reminds me of the famed Ironfist video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C0F_aVAnFU
Can't believe its been 4 years already...

 

[Neiteio]

I thought the commentators were supposed to be unbiased? One of them was constantly trying to give the Rufus players tips (Bait the DP, He's not gonna throw you) even taunting on the Ryu player "he could of ultra'd that but of course he doesn't know about that",

They're fans commentating. This isn't ESPN. Lower your standards!

 

[Gardex]

lololol these people. Thats why you can't talk about competitive anything with somebody who doesn't have the competitive mindset.

Vergil is scrubby. Random scrubs can get wins EASILY depending on game mechanics (xfactor) and character imbalance (vergil). There is no such thing as "smart" vergil play.

That ryu player is a scrub. You could lose to a scrub, thats fine. Scrub-busting is a skill that is needed in a tournament setting. There are players where you have to play completely stupid because they have no sense of risk/reward assessment. These are the same scrubs that complain about hadouken spamming and combo spamming. That ryu player probably doesn't even know why he won, he just mashed buttons and hoped for the best. Simple as that. There is no logic behind the shit he was doing.

Nope. I don't shake hands with anybody unless I am impress by their play. Even if I lose, if I think they are only slightly better than me or rely on gimmicks then fuck out of here. Shaking hands are only reserved for people that I respect and I don't respect shitty random play.

Did you aim for irony with this post?

 

[GenericJoe]

*checks*
yup junior

I'd never want to be part of the fighting game community if elitist bullshit like that is par for the course.

.

 

[Vice]

Where is the theory crafting in fighting games? The variables in a game like dota 2 are immense and so are the results that can come from theory crafting. Does the game have the creative freedom that allows a great player to do something not even intended by the designers? Can you create a new move from combinations of existing moves? I'm not trying to put down fighting games here, they are very difficult at the top level and deserve their place in real honest competitive gaming unlike very low skill ceiling games like Halo or COD. But they do not compare to the skill ceilings of games like Starcraft 2, Dota 2, Quake, and CS. Fighting games take environment and any theory crafting and almost all creativity out of the picture.

You can create new techniques based on the engine in many fighting games. For example, in Marvel vs Capcom 3 there have been a few techniques that have affected the metagame: TAC infinite, the Kabuta Escape and option select dashing. None of them were intended by the developers but they all change the way the game is played drastically if players know how to do them consistently.

In SFIV the newest technique is"Proximity Option Select" where if an opponent inputs an attack your character will perform a special move that punishes it. If they don't attack then nothing comes out and the user of the Proximity Option select is as safe as can be. It makes the whiffing of moves to control space riskier. While it isn't a new way to attack it changes the way the game is played in a significant way

 

[theprodigy]

.

LOLOLOL a completely unrelated NeoGAF thing is now exclusively part of the FGC

 

[RS4-]

Does Ghandi play like this normally? Personally, even in matches where the difference is game point in the finals or finishing top 5 or 20, I don't care. I'll troll the fuck out of the other player just to piss them off and feel like shit.

Just like the Jyobin vid; if I want to play like that, I will. I've got no problems switching styles on the fly, holding db all day, over head x 5, full screen throws.

Curious to hear what Ghandi has to say about all this.

 

[Ragingnight]

Bull shit. Had he done that to me i would have talked so much trash to him as he walked away.

And you would be the idiot that looks like a salty winner. You got the win already. Why do you need a handshake to go along with it?

Did you aim for irony with this post?

What did I say that was ironic? Scrub does not mean a player that can't win.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

It's common for players to learn how to beat opponents when the game is played "correctly" (as in, using tactics that are generally considered the most effective for that character/matchup), and in the process forget how to play against a beginner player. The next step in getting better is learning to detect when your opponent is playing outside the norm and how to adjust your playstyle to counter that. Until you master this, you're going to have some embarassing losses against players who are far less knowledgeable about the game than you are.

That's what makes this video hilarious for many. Lots of us have been in Huw's situation.

 

[Manbig]

And you would be the idiot that looks like a salty winner. You got the win already. Why do you need a handshake to go along with it?



What did I say that was ironic? Scrub does not mean a player that can't win.

Why do people have to play by your "rules" to not be called a scrub?

 

[FallingEdge]

ITT people who talk about the FGC who know nothing about the FGC

 

[kyoakuma]

And you would be the idiot that looks like a salty winner. You got the win already. Why do you need a handshake to go along with it?



What did I say that was ironic? Scrub does not mean a player that can't win.

least he could have done after talking all that trash. again, had it been me, after he talked that trash, i would have been as equal a dick to him. pretty simple.

 

[BronsonLee]

LOLOLOL a completely unrelated NeoGAF thing is now exclusively part of the FGC

What the hell are you doing

 

[Ragingnight]

least he could have done after talking all that trash. again, had it been me, after he talked that trash, i would have been as equal a dick to him. pretty simple.

what trash did he say? He fucking left after the lost immediately. LOL? And that guy has not once talked bad on him on gaf (the rufus is a gaffer).

Why do people have to play by your "rules" to not be called a scrub?

What rules? The rules of knowing why you did something? Logical reasoning? He's not a scrub because he doesn't play like other ryus. Thats not a problem. He's a scrub because he's doing things without any logic or reason behind it and just mashing buttons.

 

[Neiteio]

Playing real-world sports, I don't recall skillful players labeling less skillful players as "scrubs. The whole distinction just reeks of insecurity and overwrought egos in the fighting game community. Along with saltiness and the need to even debate handshaking, it just spells a lack of sportsmanship that jeopardizes the scene's ability to be taken seriously outside of itself.

Just shut up and win.

(Not directed at anyone in particular)

 

[GenericJoe]

LOLOLOL a completely unrelated NeoGAF thing is now exclusively part of the FGC

You really don't see the irony in dismissing my opinion about elitism in the fighting game community because I'm a junior on NeoGAF? Really?

 

[kyoakuma]

what trash did he say? He fucking left after the lost immediately. LOL? And that guy has not once talked bad on him on gaf (the rufus is a gaffer).

What rules? The rules of knowing why you did something? Logical reasoning? He's not a scrub because he doesn't play like other ryus. Thats not a problem. He's a scrub because he's doing things without any logic or reason behind it and just mashing buttons.

obviously you must have watched the video on mute. I dont care if he's mashing buttons or comboing the crap outta the guy, its his style. He beat out a supposed "pro", not just that, but handed him his ass. Wins > style any day.

 

[gryz]

back in the day random kids playing as eddy gordo and mashing buttons were my most feared arcade opponent

 

[Neiteio]

You really don't see the irony in dismissing my opinion about elitism in the fighting game community because I'm a junior on NeoGAF? Really?

Prodigy can come off incredibly elitist (and "elitist," it should be noted, is an attitude, and does not equal "actual skill"). That being said, I like him at the end of the day. Just wish he'd cool his jets and not pick on people.

(Rare instance of me commenting on another poster's behavior, something I generally avoid.)

 

[theprodigy]

It's common for players to learn how to beat opponents when the game is played "correctly" (as in, using tactics that are generally considered the most effective for that character/matchup), and in the process forget how to play against a beginner player. The next step in getting better is learning to detect when your opponent is playing outside the norm and how to adjust your playstyle to counter that. Until you master this, you're going to have some embarassing losses against players who are far less knowledgeable about the game than you are.

That's what makes this video hilarious for many. Lots of us have been in Huw's situation.

pretty much

 

[alstein]

This thread reminds me of hardcore poker players i run into at tournaments and stuff here. They get pissed off because people aren't playing the way they should and it always blows my mind that people have this notion that there is a correct way to play poker or even video games. You play it the way you want to play it. Clearly someone is doing something right if they beat someone who is an expert at a game

Sometimes in a tourney I'll intentionally play stupid in short spurts because I know once I set an expectation of being decent at least, playing like a scrub will work for a bit. This strat actually won me a match against a former EVO champ once. (he was making fun of some locals, so I was playing super-mad, I was out of energy the next match due to all the anger)

 

[Manbig]

what trash did he say? He fucking left after the lost immediately. LOL? And that guy has not once talked bad on him on gaf (the rufus is a gaffer).

What rules? The rules of knowing why you did something? Logical reasoning? He's not a scrub because he doesn't play like other ryus. Thats not a problem. He's a scrub because he's doing things without any logic or reason behind it and just mashing buttons.

The point is that he is NOT a scrub for that reason. You, like many others, are using that term completely wrong and come off as incredibly obnoxious because of it.

You wanna know what a scrub sounds like?

lololol these people. Thats why you can't talk about competitive anything with somebody who doesn't have the competitive mindset.

Vergil is scrubby. Random scrubs can get wins EASILY depending on game mechanics (xfactor) and character imbalance (vergil). There is no such thing as "smart" vergil play.

That ryu player is a scrub. You could lose to a scrub, thats fine. Scrub-busting is a skill that is needed in a tournament setting. There are players where you have to play completely stupid because they have no sense of risk/reward assessment. These are the same scrubs that complain about hadouken spamming and combo spamming. That ryu player probably doesn't even know why he won, he just mashed buttons and hoped for the best. Simple as that. There is no logic behind the shit he was doing.

Nope. I don't shake hands with anybody unless I am impress by their play. Even if I lose, if I think they are only slightly better than me or rely on gimmicks then fuck out of here. Shaking hands are only reserved for people that I respect and I don't respect shitty random play.

 

[xaosslug]

so, did Gandhi win the next guy, or end up losing?

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Playing real-world sports, I don't recall skillful players labeling less skillful players as "scrubs. The whole distinction just reeks of insecurity and overwrought egos in the fighting game community. Along with saltiness and the need to even debate handshaking, it just spells a lack of sportsmanship that jeopardizes the scene's ability to be taken seriously outside of itself.

Just shut up and win.

(Not directed at anyone in particular)

That particular aspect is precisely what drew me to the scene in the first place though. I liked the idea that there were no excuses, that no one gave a fuck who you were and that it was all about the game.

But then I see players way better than I am resort to excuses I would never expect from them. :-|

 

[Ragingnight]

obviously you must have watched the video on mute. I dont care if he's mashing buttons or comboing the crap outta the guy, its his style. He beat out a supposed "pro", not just that, but handed him his ass. Wins > style any day.

Are you a fucking idiot? Even if he did talk shit you wouldn't be able to hear it. There is no mics near the players. And its clear he just stood up, unplug his stick and walked away.

Also FSP isn't a pro. Hes just above average. Where is this idea of him being "pro" coming from?

Yes Wins > Style. That doesn't mean he didn't play scrubby.

The point is that he is NOT a scrub for that reason. You, like many others, are using that term completely wrong and come off as incredibly obnoxious because of it.

You wanna know what a scrub sounds like?

How cute. Pretend to be an internet tough guy more. Maybe if you understood the game you would know why XF3 Vergil is considered scrubby.

 

[Shouta]

Negative on that use of the word "scrub". Simply being bad at the game doesn't make anyone a scrub and it's quite obnoxious to see it thrown around like that seeing as it was invented as a derogatory term for a specific kind of bad player.

Why do people have to play by your "rules" to not be called a scrub?

As I said in my previous post. It isn't a matter of just being "low-skill" it's doing stuff without rhyme or reason as Raginight also pointed out. It has nothing to do with "rules" at all.

obviously you must have watched the video on mute. I dont care if he's mashing buttons or comboing the crap outta the guy, its his style. He beat out a supposed "pro", not just that, but handed him his ass. Wins > style any day.

FSP isn't a pro. He doesn't get paid to do play FGs.

Edit:

The point is that he is NOT a scrub for that reason. You, like many others, are using that term completely wrong and come off as incredibly obnoxious because of it.

You wanna know what a scrub sounds like?

Oh. You're talking about the difference in 'Scrub attitude" and "Scrub play." Different things to me.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Ragingnight sounds like the biggest scrub here, to be perfectly honest

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Nah, come on man. He was not good at all. He was throwing out sweeps, uppercuts, EX Tatsu's, ultras, and fireballs almost completely at random. Point-blank range sweeps, for crying out loud! FSP was just mindfucked and failed to punish Ghandi's beginner mistakes.

Ghandi won. That means he played better than FSP. That doesn't mean he's good, however.

I point-blank range sweep like a champ! Been doing it since 1994! lol.

 

[The Albatross]

is this limited to just serious, competative games? Madden has its competitions but it's obviously not as serious as DOTA, fighting games, and so on, but back when I used to play a lot of online Madden, I'd have epic games against people who all knew the finer points of the sport, knew how to exploit defenses and figuring out tendencies... Felt like a great chess match.

ANd then you'd randomly play an online game against a random guy who doesn't know anything about football or the finer points of Madden, and you'd have no idea how to stop their cheese-based offense.

 

[Kimosabae]

Playing real-world sports, I don't recall skillful players labeling less skillful players as "scrubs. The whole distinction just reeks of insecurity and overwrought egos in the fighting game community. Along with saltiness and the need to even debate handshaking, it just spells a lack of sportsmanship that jeopardizes the scene's ability to be taken seriously outside of itself.

Just shut up and win.

(Not directed at anyone in particular)

lol

Try playing a sport within an inner-city environment - then get back to me.

FGC minority representation is indicative of the same bootstraps, no-holds-barred, anything goes, inner-city youth culture that you would find on a blacktop in Harlem NY (for i.e.). Part of that culture migrated to arcades in the 90s and now comprises an important (and dying) part of the modern FGC. It's still growing up. Give it time.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

my contribution
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IjFsbQOK-0

 

[Manbig]

As I said in my previous post. It isn't a matter of just being "low-skill" it's doing stuff without rhyme or reason as Raginight also pointed out. It has nothing to do with "rules" at all.



FSP isn't a pro. He doesn't get paid to do play FGs.

No it is not simply doing things without rhyme or reason. The important aspect for that term is that they blame the game rather than their own incompetence. That is why it is a derogatory term. At some point, a bunch of people came and warped the meaning behind the word and just throw it around to label a variety of people. That is the kind of thing that makes other people label the "FGC" as elitist.

 

[Arozay]

LOL, that match. Reminds me of when I play the odd match against some of my friends who play SF once a year.

Or new meta.

 

[isucamper1]

This is just like that episode of Cheers where Sam plays Robin in chess but Carla and Norm are feeding Sam moves through an earpiece but at the end of the game they get disconnected and Sam makes a totally random move and it throws Robin off and Sam wins.