That's not really the point though. If the concern is creating something memorable which is the focus of the article, then he certainly made his case.
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We need to kill gameplay says Ex-People Can Fly dev
- Thread starter BlackJace
- Start date
That's not really the point though. If the concern is creating something memorable which is the focus of the article, then he certainly made his case.
Riposte
Member
This is why people need to stop using the word gameplay. Dialogue choices is apart of playing and it (and the consequences which follow) are all made up mechanics.
Story needs to be the flavour and color over top the shape and feel which is gameplay.
I get the same emotional peak from reading a book, or watching a movie, hell reading the walking dead comic was more brutal to me emotionally than playing the game.
I do not play games because I want to feel emotional, it's good for some games...I just want to have fun
snoopeasystreet
Member
I think the word game implies a possible failure state. Events can result in unfavourable outcomes but if the only endings possible are ones baked into the narrative by the designer then it's not really a failure state. For example, I wouldn't call a choose your own adventure book a game despite some books allowing you to end the story early because of bad choices.
Then I'm just going to say that it's better for a game to be considered worthwhile by those who play it rather than simply memorable.
Similarly, we need to stop putting the story cart before the gameplay horse.
RealDeadOne
Member
I feel like interactive stories are being held back by being called games, because they have to put token gameplay like walking around with the analog stick and QTEs. IMO those are currently the worst parts of games like Heavy Rain and Walking Dead.
My statement was a little misguided. It's not that I don't think interactive stories aren't games at all in any sense, but rather that I feel that the "interactive story" genre is being tainted by traditional mechanics-driven games, and vice versa, as is the case with the "we need to kill gameplay" statement, and that both would benefit greatly by not being so closely associated with each other.
Riposte
Member
"Fun" is made up of emotions.
PowderedToast
Junior Member
yes, or any love-de-lic game
express yourself equally through mechanics as well as every other element
it's very simple, if you have a brain
A lot of the "greatest" movies ever use cheap tricks.
Er, sorry if the title is misleading, I honestly didn't intend for it to be.
I mean, he does, say this:
Adrian said:
The argument is that the moment you take away any and all gameplay interaction from a game, is it really right to call it a game? Even if the devs classify it as "a deeply emotional game"?
Once you have solid gameplay worked out too, you can pretty much add whatever story you want in between. You can also have gameplay inspired by story, inspiration and experience. But I don't understand why story and gameplay have to be so separated and scripted. Looking back Uncharted 2 is a manipulation of endorphins but its game design is pretty weak outside of the puzzles.
Blue_Barry
Member
At what point did these guys forget they were making games? Not fucking interactive B grade movies...
Yes, because standard, traditional gameplay implies there is also non traditional gameplay.
Risk Breaker
Member
Nier is one of the most emotional games this generation, with plenty of "gameplay" (which isn't the best ever either) and not that much cutscene time, so there you go.
After Bulletstorm though, I wasn't expecting much from the guys that were/are at PCF.
After Bulletstorm though, I wasn't expecting much from the guys that were/are at PCF.
No matter how hard I try I can't word this elegantly but here it goes..
the most memorable emotional responses from me is when the "fail state" is very hard to avoid. Finally seeing "Terminated" when fighting The Lost in The Last Remnant, surviving Hector's hard mode version of Cog of Destiny in FE Blazing sword, finally getting all 3 Stars on the last missions of the Spec ops mode of MW2 with my brother (I think "Snatch and Grab" comes to mind). Those are some of the most memorable moments for me.
the most memorable emotional responses from me is when the "fail state" is very hard to avoid. Finally seeing "Terminated" when fighting The Lost in The Last Remnant, surviving Hector's hard mode version of Cog of Destiny in FE Blazing sword, finally getting all 3 Stars on the last missions of the Spec ops mode of MW2 with my brother (I think "Snatch and Grab" comes to mind). Those are some of the most memorable moments for me.
Did I say he couldn't have opinions? He can. They can be as wrong/right/genius/idiotic as he wants them to be, too!
All I'm saying is: the ones he's staying here are something else. Whew.
Why would those things be mutually exclusive? If a game brings you nothing but positive memories and emotions can you call it worthwhile?
I think the disconnect here comes from mostly everyone interpreting the author's point as "lets make every game an adventure game".
PowderedToast
Junior Member
i was roused by how bayonetta channeled its nostalgic appreciation for old videogames
i was both mentally and visually stimulated by the lead character's post feminist design
--
this is why cage and co. are so, so far behind. art does not equal sad. art does not equal minimalism. art equals expression, stimulation, culture, attachment.
cage and other designers of his ilk will fumble in their paddle pool because there is no progress to be made in their line of thinking. it's ill-conceived, naive and just plain dumb - and i'm really tired of hearing about it
Right but he says that we need to remove gameplay if you want the player to have a deeper, emotional connection. I don't think he ever implied that we should get rid of it outright.
I mean, I don't agree with the dude either way, but people aren't reading the OP so all they're getting is that this guy wants to turn games into movies.
Edit: Apologies BlackJace, your thread title was actually spot on. I didn't know that it was essentially the same as what he had actually titled his article.
So non-traditional gameplay..is no gameplay at all?
Super Metroid says Shut the fuck up Adrian.
Schlachtor
Banned
GodDuckman: "Games with cinematic elements = games is not fun!"
Your bullshit doesn't smell any better than his (People can fly ex-dev) bullshit.
Riposte
Member
We should not forgive any media for being worse, despite their oh-so-noble intentions. What you are proposing here, is an escape of criticism (an escape from ranking, comparison). I made a brief comment on this recently:
Apparently this confused a few people, but I'm not sure how. We have games which do what Walking Dead do but are not shallow, skeletons of interactivity. Walking Dead's "exceptional" quality is that it has writers writing in a form they are comfortable with and doing a good job at it (at least to the point of it being noted). I'm reluctant to call this "exceptional" because it has actually been going on for decades with visual novels and pseudo-adventure games which predate Heavy Rain (it has more buzz though).
Huh, maybe it did. I didn't think so at first, because it had been implied there would be no sequel due to poor sales. I guess the real reason is "because we hate Duffy and don't like to see him have fun."
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
Might as well just make a movie then.
The platforming in Mario Galaxy is more worthy of being considered art than any of those shallow 'deep experiences' like Heavy Rain and Flower.
MarshMellow96
Member
So, less crit hits, more dick tits?
snoopeasystreet
Member
That's not really true. A good video game story should compliment it's gameplay in a way that makes sense and one doesn't contradict the other. It's a thing that most people don't really think about. To use uncharted as an example, the story of that game is about a roguish adventure exploring and finding treasure. The gameplay of uncharted is about an acrobatic serial man following a path killing tonnes of dudes until he finds a puzzle that he must figure out so he can get back on the path and kill more dudes.
Portal is a great example of narrative story and the gameplay story completely complimenting each other. If you were to strip away everything about the prescribed narrative portal, have a player play through it and then ask them what they think the story was, I bet it wouldn't be too far off from what it actually is. There's not many games where you can actually do that.
I feel like a lot of people over think their story in games and try to make it something comparable to other mediums out there. If a game has simple mechanics, the story should be simple and a lot of narrative devices such as plot twists only work if it can be supported mechanically.
Trent Strong
Banned
If you want deeply emotional moments then read a book or watch a movie or TV show. A game is supposed to be a game.
Glorious_Paradox
Member
Bullshit.
zerokoolpsx
Member
Wut?
I don't want to watch a movie.
I don't want to watch a movie.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I'm not so sure about entirely dismissing everything designers like that have done, but the bolded part is most important IMO.
Western-bred and influenced creators seem lost in the cultural memetic that Art Is Srs Bizness. And that serious business is solemn, sad. That introspection only comes from sitting alone in an uncomfortable chair in an empty room, gazing out the window into a battering rainstorm.
This is a knowing stereotype, but an image conjured up by western "interpretive dance" would be a pale, gaunt man in a leotard tip-toeing around a stage in silence, while Phillip Glass plays. Interpretive dance in many other cultures would in comparison be a cacophony of sound and color, often exuberant, even carnival-like. Intense, a display of emotion, energy, involvement, even danger.
So many designers express near contempt for video games for being too "fun". For being "shallow" and "saying nothing". Video games have a hell of a lot to say. A lot of people haven't been listening, because of a bias that everyone should be speaking one language.
It has been said before, but what many miss about the 'art' of games is that they are closer to performance art than anything else. The art only properly exists when the game is being played; the involvement of the player is what creates it. Evo Moment 37 is art. Watching someone perform an incredible speed run that stretches, and breaks, the limits of how a game is designed, is art. Witnessing Bayonetta being played to maximum potential is art. Even better, due to the accessibility of the medium, you don't have to be just an observer. It's easy for anyone to pick up a controller and take part and become a part of the art.
That said, there is a place for experiences like The Walking Dead. There's little to be gained by putting other forms of games down in order to elevate something like that experience.
It could be true that we're in need of an interactive fiction genre label. To draw upon the Star Trek holodeck analogy, in that fictional setting interactive programs were not called "games" but "holonovels" with the understanding that they were not passive. They were interactive and depended on "player" participation.
We don't have a holodeck yet, but perhaps a different kind of label is needed.
Femmeworth
Banned
One size does not fit all.
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
Yep, waaaaaay too many failed filmmakers working in a medium that really isn't suited for them.
Bullshit.
It's not like the feelings of fear, triumph, mystery, or discovery in Dark Souls were reflected by anything you did in-game! They were all non-interacti- Oh.
Yup, there's no gameplay in Painkiller or Bulletstorm. Just story and emotions.
Why bother with all that when you can just make things sad (sad is the only emotion) and be like movies, then it is an verified Art because art movies are sad and are movies which are art. Yeah?
Also, I'd like to take the opportunity in this thread to tell everyone to please stop using the word gameplay. It's bad.
Femmeworth
Banned
This post has bad postread.
That's about as narrow minded as the position in the OP.
Separating this shit is pointless. I've slayed kids in Battlefield like an artist painting a landscape of fear and desperation. I've moved Mario so fluidly that he glides like a bird. One of my favorite parts of videogames is that the player decides how artistic the experience will be, regardless of genre.
I've seen some fuckers that were artists at Tetris. That shit is magic.
I've seen some fuckers that were artists at Tetris. That shit is magic.
Chinpoko_Master
Member
This is probably the dumbest thing I've heard in a while.
At least it explains why most of the games that people champion as art have shit gameplay.
At least it explains why most of the games that people champion as art have shit gameplay.
Can I talk about "mechanics?" 'Cause the common, sarcastic comments about "moviewatch," "bookread," and "songlisten" ignore the fact that games have interactive elements that need to feel good and work well.
akidnamededdy
Banned
If you want to make movies, just come out and say it. Jesus.
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