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[Holy Order Sol]

Just because OoT came first, doesn't make it the best. Just the same for Final Fantasy 7. It was the first 3D FF game, and people regarded it as the best, when in actuality, there are other FF games that simply trump it.

People need to get over the nostalgia, and really look at things objectively for once.

That's a dickish thing to say. Nostalgia is a heavy part of why I like MM (not only now, but back then too, because of the contrast with OoT). Hell it's part of why I like games in general, I probably wouldn't even be playing games if it weren't for that, you're saying I should stop too?

Whether it's Zelda or FF or any other series, there's no objective way to rank them and declare one of the installments is the best. People happen to prefer one and that's that. I don't even bother with those lists myself, they're just self-inflicted torture and fodder for threads that have been cluttering the whole Internet for ages.

 

[WiiredShawn]

Sometimes people do conflate "best" with "first", for various cognitive reasons. But to borrow from Rosenblatt's idea of the 'poem as event,' we all create that experience in the moment of play based on the mental and emotional forces at work in us at that particular instance. Sometimes the experience resonates deeply, which often gives birth to nostalgia. But in reality, nothing can recreate that moment of transaction between you and the experience, thus preserving the sanctity of your feeling.

Any game, Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask or whatever it may be, is always "best" in the single, isolated moment of your life. Personally, I love Ocarina of Time and find it to be incredible in its own way, but Majora's Mask's ideas, and its execution on those ideas, just resonate with me more deeply. I think it will be interesting to see how future generations reappropriate their experiences.

 

[mdtauk]

Majora's Mask's true strength lies in its characters. The impending doom is not enough to make the game so good, it is the way the characters respond to "the inevitable" and the fact you either help them prepare for it, or watch helplessly as the lives of people are lost, or they become a shadow of their former selves.

It is that reason also, that Link's Awakening can hit that emotional mark. If it were just the fact that waking the Wind Fish will make the island vanish, you wouldn't think twice about it. But the fact the children are oblivious to the world beyond the present moment, the sense of confusion about why they exist at all, and of course Marin's dreams and hopes for the future.

Marin is the only one on the island who questions what is beyond. And she lets you know she has feelings for you, close to the moment you learn the truth about Koholint. That's when it strikes you, and you realise there is something deeper in the hearts, minds, and intents of the developers.

This is something Majora's Mask and Link's Awakening share, more than any other Zelda games, and I would not be sad to see some more of this depth return to the series.

 

[Dr.Hadji]

I liked the gameplay of Skyward Sword, the mechanics are some of the best in the series and it's more challanging which I appriciate. I also loved the art style. But it was also one of the least compelling experiences I've had in the series because it lacked a lot of soul that other entries had. I was never immersed and constantly aware of all the gameplay mechanics set up in the enviroment. When I entered an environment it could be analyzed like a room in Portal. I expect that of constructed dungeons, but not from a living world. It also didn't just let me explore. Or I wasn't intrigued enough by the enviroments to explore. It was all set up for me to follow a string of gameplay mechanics.

This is the thing I don't get. Most all of 3d Zelda's zones are like this. The Southern Swamp in MM for example needs you to
-Lily pad skip over poison water
-Keep up with a monkey through a forest maze
-Backtracking for Red potion
-Taking a boat ride across the swap
-Stealthing through a Deku court yard to speak to the king

Almost each of these major gameplay elements take place in their own rooms. All the rooms are fat hallways with one in and one out. Success in each of the elements serves as the key to the next area. And with most of the area landlocked by the poison water your actions are pretty directed though the were typical Zelda goodies hidden in its corners. The whole Deku Stealth segment is about as gamey as you get. I just don't see where the huge disconnect is.

 

[kayos90]

Majora's Mask and Wind Waker have some of the weakest dungeon design in the series (it's still good though). The reason they are loved by so many people is because, in addition to being mere games, they were strong experiences as well.

WHOA?! What? MM has weakest Dungeon Design? Sorry, I actually think it has THE best dungeon design out of all the 3D Zelda. All 4 temples are great, clever, and dastardly amazing.

 

[Anth0ny]

WHOA?! What? MM has weakest Dungeon Design? Sorry, I actually think it has THE best dungeon design out of all the 3D Zelda. All 4 temples are great, clever, and dastardly amazing.

I agree. The first dungeon was nothing special, but still good. Snowhead and Great Bay were great dungeons. Stone Tower Temple is the best dungeon in the series, hands down.

Not to mention the great "in between" locations (Deku Palace, Snowhead, Pirates Fortress, Well, Ikana Castle). I'd qualify some of those as mini dungeons, like the Ice Cavern in OOT before them.

 

[WiiredShawn]

This is the thing I don't get. Most all of 3d Zelda's zones are like this. The Southern Swamp in MM for example needs you to
-Lily pad skip over poison water
-Keep up with a monkey through a forest maze
-Backtracking for Red potion
-Taking a boat ride across the swap
-Stealthing through a Deku court yard to speak to the king

Almost each of these major gameplay elements take place in their own rooms. All the rooms are fat hallways with one in and one out. Success in each of the elements serves as the key to the next area. And with most of the area landlocked by the poison water your actions are pretty directed though the were typical Zelda goodies hidden in its corners. The whole Deku Stealth segment is about as gamey as you get. I just don't see where the huge disconnect is.

I think the disconnect is simply that Skyward Sword (and Twilight Princess, and Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks, I think) attributes relatively less meaning to any of your actions. The lock-and-key mechanism feels more transparent in those worlds, whereas Majora's Mask tries to create an organic presentation that facilitates layered meaning.

When performing actions in Majora's Mask, someone is always affected - you see and feel an aspect of a character or a situation that builds on the game's core themes (e.g., loss, death, fear, maturity, worship, etc.). Skyward Sword, at multiple junctures, skimps on such opportunities: in places with obvious potential for character or scenario development, the game simply skips off to the next locale, eager to cast the player into more entertaining, but somehow disconnected experiences.

Consequently, when Majora's Mask ends, the relatively simple plot has been overshadowed by layers of complexity, giving the impression of weight, of substance, of accomplishing more than merely fitting all the right keys into the right locks. When Skyward Sword ends (and this is at least my feeling after 60 hours), all that remains is the relatively simple plot, with a few flashes of character development that either do not integrate well with each other (main characters and side characters), do not utilize their full potential (

Spoiler

Hylia, Demise

), or do not really synergize with the gameplay (Fi).

That's my feeling on the matter, anyway.

And in line with the current discussion: I enjoyed all of the dungeons, but the music in the Water Temple has never grown on me. My fiancee, who also loves Majora's Mask, can barely stand it. It is kind of grating.

 

[Shion]

WHOA?! What? MM has weakest Dungeon Design? Sorry, I actually think it has THE best dungeon design out of all the 3D Zelda. All 4 temples are great, clever, and dastardly amazing.

The way I said it sounded a bit harsh but, yeah, I think that Majora's dungeons are somewhat weaker in comparison to those found in Ocarina, Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. Majora's dungeons are still great though, and Stone Tower is one of the best dungeons in the whole series.

Btw, I was very disappointed by both Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword and I regard Majora’s Mask as the pinnacle of the series

 

[Utako]

At this point, I finally put two and two together. Chateau Romani is the equivalent of alcohol in Termina. Cremia is letting Romani drink the Chateau Romani and sleep in her bed that night in order to put her at ease and numb the pain of being engulfed by the moon in mere hours.

... ahem. No shit.

Also, it isn't to "numb the pain," the undertones are that Romani's sister wants to 1) make her happy, and 2) pass her into adulthood before death (this appears to be some kind of traditional rite).

 

[WiiredShawn]

... ahem. No shit.

Also, it isn't to "numb the pain," the undertones are that Romani's sister wants to 1) make her happy, and 2) pass her into adulthood before death (this appears to be some kind of traditional rite).

Well, the "numb the pain" idea might not have been in the developer's intent, but it's still an interesting interpretation; after all, we're extrapolating on an ambiguous transaction. If Cremia thinks that they will die (and why shouldn't she?), then it is a nice bonus that alcohol can serve both as an initiation into adulthood, as well as keep Romani from experiencing that fear, or even awareness of death which must necessarily accompany adulthood. Cremia is no stranger to hard decisions.

Of course, this raises another interesting question: can we actually give adulthood like a gift? The great irony of that scene is that Romani doesn't actually grasp the reality of being an adult - like a child, she only sees and pines for the symbols that allow her to connect more closely to other adults like her sister. In giving Romani the "milk," she is giving her that symbol and letting her relish it, but also preventing (saving?) Romani from enduring the actual harshness of adult life. As Link, walking the fine line between childhood and adulthood, you are the sole witness to this cutting irony: that a woman would offer her sister the mask of adulthood knowing she will likely never live to realize its trappings.

 

[Dr.Hadji]

I think the disconnect is simply that Skyward Sword (and Twilight Princess, and Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks, I think) attributes relatively less meaning to any of your actions. The lock-and-key mechanism feels more transparent in those worlds, whereas Majora's Mask tries to create an organic presentation that facilitates layered meaning.

The rest of your post answers my question well. But I'm going to pick out this section so I can try to rescue my point before I got side tracked. When the locks and keys of your game are more straight forward, is less dynamic, interacts with fewer things, or is mechanically very similar but weaker to a landmark game that came out a few years prior that makes those lock and key mechanisms more transparent.

OOT turned the Lost Woods into a soft lock to block access into the Sacred Forest Meadow. You can go there right off the bat but if you didn't know the way already the complexity of the woods would deter most players. Your key is a simple change in the music (the change is subtle something most would only find if they knew the trick and tested it at the beginning of the game). That is a fantastic job of obfuscating the locks and keys. MM turns the setup into a one use location of follow the monkey. And what follows is the age old NPC "do this and then we'll talk" lock that is only less obvious as a lock when compared to Metroid colored doors. The difference between OOT's Lost Woods and MM's Woods of Mystery is a pretty stark one to me.

 

[Extra Sauce]

Remake coming to 3DS, believe!

I get angry when I hear Ocarina 3DS referred to as a remake. It's more of a port than a remake, even though it has characteristics from both.

The character models have been redone with a lot more polygons, the res has been upped all over the place including textures, but the environments are jarringly untouched. It's either a great port, or a half-assed remake IMO. Pick one, heh.

 

[Mistle]

I get angry when I hear Ocarina 3DS referred to as a remake. It's more of a port than a remake, even though it has characteristics from both.

The character models have been redone with a lot more polygons, the res has been upped all over the place including textures, but the environments are jarringly untouched. It's either a great port, or a half-ass remaked IMO. Pick one, heh.

I'd say it's a greatly enhanced port.

 

[Extra Sauce]

I'd say it's a greatly enhanced port.

I'll settle for that.

 

[gaming_noob]

This girl is fucking creepy.

What was the purpose of the saw? I beat the game several times but dont remember a saw...

 

[Red UFO]

What was the purpose of the saw? I beat the game several times but dont remember a saw...

You traded it for the broken biggoron's sword which you traded for the eyedrop prescription which you traded for the eyeball frog which you traded for the eyedrops which you traded for the claim check which you traded for the biggoron's sword.

 

[Shion]

Truth is that, if Majora's Mask is ever going to get a remake on the 3DS, I'd like to see something a lot bigger than a simple enhanced port. I want to see a true remake that takes full advantage of the 3DS capabilities.

I know it’s not going to happen, but a man can dream.

 

[gaming_noob]

You traded it for the broken biggoron's sword which you traded for the eyedrop prescription which you traded for the eyeball frog which you traded for the eyedrops which you traded for the claim check which you traded for the biggoron's sword.

Brings back a lot of memories. Skyward Sword was missing quests like in Oot and MM.

MM is definitely my fave.

 

[alf717]

I think some sort of Master Quest style add-on would be nice if it was given more work. The 3DS Master Quest looks like they just mirrored the game.

 

[Mistle]

I think some sort of Master Quest style add-on would be nice if it was given more work. The 3DS Master Quest looks like they just mirrored the game.

Have you played a dungeon yet?

 

[alf717]

Have you played a dungeon yet?

I don't even own it =( Just watched a youtube vid. I know the GC version was harder and the enemies were moved around. Has that changed at all? Is it even more difficult?

 

[Christine]

I don't even own it =( Just watched a youtube vid. I know the GC version was harder and the enemies were moved around. Has that changed at all? Is it even more difficult?

It's not just enemies moved around but barriers, switches, etc. The dungeons have the same geometry w/r/t rooms and doors, but the route to clear the dungeon and the puzzles you have to solve to do it are changed around considerably.

 

[alf717]

It's not just enemies moved around but barriers, switches, etc. The dungeons have the same geometry w/r/t rooms and doors, but the route to clear the dungeon and the puzzles you have to solve to do it are changed around considerably.

Oh wow! I think if I even can sell off my laptop I'll be getting a 3DS and OOT. That is really cool to hear that Nintendo made the dungeons even more difficult.

 

[kayos90]

The way I said it sounded a bit harsh but, yeah, I think that Majora's dungeons are somewhat weaker in comparison to those found in Ocarina, Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. Majora's dungeons are still great though, and Stone Tower is one of the best dungeons in the whole series.

Btw, I was very disappointed by both Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword and I regard Majora’s Mask as the pinnacle of the series

What?! SERIOUSLY?! MM dungeons are weaker than Twilight, SS, and OoT? Okay.... what the hell?

 

[Christine]

Oh wow! I think if I even can sell off my laptop I'll be getting a 3DS and OOT. That is really cool to hear Nintendo made the dungeons even more difficult.

They did it years ago, for Gamecube. It was part of the Wind Waker pre-order bonus, along with original Ocarina.

 

[Mistle]

Oh wow! I think if I even can sell off my laptop I'll be getting a 3DS and OOT. That is really cool to hear that Nintendo made the dungeons even more difficult.

It's pretty great. The dungeons are completely remixed, and much harder.

 

[Mumei]

I agree. The first dungeon was nothing special, but still good. Snowhead and Great Bay were great dungeons. Stone Tower Temple is the best dungeon in the series, hands down.

Not to mention the great "in between" locations (Deku Palace, Snowhead, Pirates Fortress, Well, Ikana Castle). I'd qualify some of those as mini dungeons, like the Ice Cavern in OOT before them.

As do I. Even the first temple was really good if taken by the standards of a typical first dungeon in most Zelda games that I've played.

And yeah, several of those could be counted as mini-dungeons; I certainly do. The whole segment in Ikana from the Graveyard to The Well to Ikana Castle to the Stone Tower to finally reaching Stone Tower Temple is easily the best "getting to the dungeon" sequence in any Zelda game I've played.

 

[Zekes!]

What?! SERIOUSLY?! MM dungeons are weaker than Twilight, SS, and OoT? Okay.... what the hell?

Majora's Mask has the shittiest dungeons out of the 3D games. The narrative portion of MM is fantastic and probably the best in the series, but I find playing it to be some what of a chore in various areas, which is what holds it back from being towards the top of my "favourite Zeldas" list.

 

[linko9]

I actually think the dungeons are pretty good, with the exception of Snowfall. I certainly think MM's dungeons are in general better than TP's, but they're quite a step down from OoT. I guess about equal with SS for me.

 

[Mumei]

I actually think the dungeons are pretty good, with the exception of Snowfall. I certainly think MM's dungeons are in general better than TP's, but they're quite a step down from OoT. I guess about equal with SS for me.

Can you explain that for me? You seem to mean that in a qualitative way and I have *never* understood that.

So what did you like better about them?

 

[kayos90]

Majora's Mask has the shittiest dungeons out of the 3D games. The narrative portion of MM is fantastic and probably the best in the series, but I find playing it to be some what of a chore in various areas, which is what holds it back from being towards the top of my "favourite Zeldas" list.

How does MM have the "shittiest dungeons out of the 3D games?" I don't understand. Many people praise MM for having the best level design out of all the 3D Zelda games. When people praise SS dungeon design, they reference a previous Zelda that had excellent dungeon design. Wanna know what that game is? Majora's Mask.

 

[Spieler Eins]

MM dungeons are still fine for me. It's way harder going back to OoT dungeons after TP. WW on the other hand truly has some of the worst 3D dungeons. The one in which you partner with that wooden guy is a pure annoyance.

 

[Zekes!]

How does MM have the "shittiest dungeons out of the 3D games?" I don't understand. Many people praise MM for having the best level design out of all the 3D Zelda games. When people praise SS dungeon design, they reference a previous Zelda that had excellent dungeon design. Wanna know what that game is? Majora's Mask.

What? Real talk, this thread is the first time I've seen people actively saying Majora's Mask has some of the "best" dungeons in the series. Every other time I've seen the game discussed it's usually agreed upon that the dungeons are the weakest part of the game. I've never seen anyone reference MM when talking about Skyward Sword's dungeon design.

 

[trinest]

MM dungeons are still fine for me. It's way harder going back to OoT dungeons after TP. WW on the other hand truly has some of the worst 3D dungeons. The one in which you partner with that wooden guy is a pure annoyance.

I only liked the first few in the game. :/

 

[kayos90]

What? Real talk, this thread is the first time I've seen people actively saying Majora's Mask has some of the "best" dungeons in the series. Every other time I've seen the game discussed it's usually agreed upon that the dungeons are the weakest part of the game. I've never seen anyone reference MM when talking about Skyward Sword's dungeon design.

Uhh.... go back to the SS thread pre-release. Read those posts cuz you obviously missed out.

 

[Mumei]

What? Real talk, this thread is the first time I've seen people actively saying Majora's Mask has some of the "best" dungeons in the series. Every other time I've seen the game discussed it's usually agreed upon that the dungeons are the weakest part of the game. I've never seen anyone reference MM when talking about Skyward Sword's dungeon design.

I usually see people saying that there are too few dungeons in Majora's Mask, which makes the dungeon aspect weaker than other Zeldas (which have more dungeons). But I think this is the only topic I've seen where people are expressing the opinion that the dungeons in and of themselves were lackluster.

No comment on SS, though; haven't played!

 

[kayos90]

I usually see people saying that there are too few dungeons in Majora's Mask, which makes the dungeon aspect weaker than other Zeldas (which have more dungeons). But I think this is the only topic I've seen where people are expressing the opinion that the dungeons in and of themselves were lackluster.

No comment on SS, though; haven't played!

Lanayru is devilishly good. That's about it though. The rest are above average. MM is way above average on EVERY temple.

 

[The Xtortionist]

Never cared much for Woodfall and Snowhead, but Great Bay, Stone Tower and Ikana Castle (it's a fucking dungeon to me) were all great. Not sure where they'd fit but 2 or 3 more dungeons on the level of the latter 3 would have been great.

I don't play MM for the dungeons though. It simply has arguably the best sense of world-building in any game.

 

[DieNgamers]

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCKKKKKKKKK!

I'm at the snow temple and I can't believe how much I screwed up!!!

1.) did the snow temple, collected all the fairies, beat the boss
2.) won the goron race, got the gold
3.) went to the blacksmith to upgrade my sword...oh no, 2nd day already, I won't be able to get the golden sword right now. What now? Travel back in time!!!

So I did but I forgot to bring the 15 fairies to the fountain!! ARGH! (That was screw-up no. 1)

Well, whatever..Just do it again, come on, you can do it...I said to myself. For now I didn't want to get all those fairies again so my plan was to ugrade the sword, finally! So I beat the boss again, blasted the rock blocking the race and won the race after 3 attempts. With the gold I won I went to the Blacksmith again.
Upgrade no.1: 100 rupees...Ooops, I forgot that! Back into town, 100 rupees from my bank account, back to blacksmith. I played the song that brings you straight to the next day (or night) so I didn't have to wait so long. Now it was finally time to use the golddust. Nect day the sword would be mine!!!
..So I went outside and attemted to play the "fast forward" song one more time. Only I didn't play that one but the Song of Time!!! I didn't realize it until I clicked "Save and go back through time? - yes" ...
....FUUUUUCK!!!! (Screw-up no. 2)

I love MM so much but I think I need a break now. -_-

 

[Boken]

I cant believe Nintendo made such a dark game.

 

[Übermatik]

I cant believe Nintendo made such a dark game.

Deceptively dark too - on the surface it's a game with lot's of bright and wonderful scenes, but you like a little closer and there are some really harrowing moments. Disturbed is the perfect word to describe this game - once you start making the links, you sometimes wish you hadn't.

 

[Urban Scholar]

Deceptively dark too - on the surface it's a game with lot's of bright and wonderful scenes, but you like a little closer and there are some really harrowing moments. Disturbed is the perfect word to describe this game - once you start making the links, you sometimes wish you hadn't.

The whole thing with the skull kid man, blow my mind. Not to mention the situation with that couple too, crazy.

 

[MNC]

Anju and Kafei = OTP 4ver. My favorite couple in a game.

I feel the exact same way., I always give MM the edge in the end. In fact SS, reminded me a lot of MM mainly for the interaction with the characters.

Anju and Kafei was the best sidequest ever.

 

[smuldegspaj]

my problem with majoras mask is the graphics.

really ugly and uneven. They wanted to do to much with that poor old hardware. oot holds up much better imho.

 

[Übermatik]

The whole thing with the skull kid man, blow my mind. Not to mention the situation with that couple too, crazy.

Yeah, Kafei and Anju was heart wrenching, man. Plus the whole Deku King's father episode, and the little girl with the Gibdo dad... The sword school master too, as mentioned in the OP.

It's all incredibly dark.

 

[Mistle]

I cant believe Nintendo made such a dark game.

It's such a huge outlier in their library. What I wouldn't give for them to try something as daring as this again.

 

[Mzo]

I cant believe Nintendo made such a dark game.

Mother 3.

 

[Übermatik]

my problem with majoras mask is the graphics.

really ugly and uneven. They wanted to do to much with that poor old hardware. oot holds up much better imho.

No, for me the graphics compliment the game perfectly. Now this is a very subjective thing, and it involves making positives out of faults, but the somewhate semi-dated and in places, broken and blurry graphics help make the experience. It adds a strange sense of confusion at times, and the fake 'cardboard' cut outs of trees on the horizon coupled with the low-poly characters and enemies gives the game a very odd feeling, like it's a trapped world trying to break free.

Am I making sense? It makes it even scarier... I find this a lot with old games, especially this guy:

Deadhand freaks me out so much, partly because, by todays' standards, he's crudely modelled and textured.

Freaky shit.

 

[FyreWulff]

Majora's main dungeons were shorter than Ocarina's, but it made up for it with tons more mini-dungeons along the way, and secret ones found via bomb-holes in the overworld.

All Ocarina really had for mini-dungeons was the Gerudo Fortress, the Ice Cavern, and The Well. Beyond that all the secrets were just simplistic rooms or puzzles.

 

[-KRS-]

No, for me the graphics compliment the game perfectly. Now this is a very subjective thing, and it involves making positives out of faults, but the somewhate semi-dated and in places, broken and blurry graphics help make the experience. It adds a strange sense of confusion at times, and the fake 'cardboard' cut outs of trees on the horizon coupled with the low-poly characters and enemies gives the game a very odd feeling, like it's a trapped world trying to break free.

Am I making sense? It makes it even scarier... I find this a lot with old games, especially this guy:

Deadhand freaks me out so much, partly because, by todays' standards, he's crudely modelled and textured.

Freaky shit.

That's also why for example Silent Hill 1 is so scary. It's because the environments and enemies are not that well defined, so your imagination can fill in the blanks and sometimes that's way scarier than well modeled enemies that don't leave anything to the imagination.