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57% of indie game developers made under $500 - Gamasutra Salary Survey 2014 Report
- Thread starter AlphaTwo00
- Start date
Yeah, this is how the indie selection for PS4 has felt, for the most part.
Crimsonclaw111
Member
You have zero right to judge someone. People have families and responsibilities. What the hell man.
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
For indies, with 57% of both solo and part of teams making less than $500, and 2% making over $200,000, the $11,000 average number is super-volatile. You would need to look at standard deviation and do a lot more analysis to come up with something meaningful out of that average. The fact that it has halved in one year alone speaks to that.
The distinction between a solo dev and a team gets kind of fuzzy when telecommuting squads of volunteers across the globe come into play. The indie numbers are just hard to summarize, but everyone is down except of course for executive and investors not reflected in these numbers either (presumably).
The distinction between a solo dev and a team gets kind of fuzzy when telecommuting squads of volunteers across the globe come into play. The indie numbers are just hard to summarize, but everyone is down except of course for executive and investors not reflected in these numbers either (presumably).
How do you come to that conclusion? If you can't pay for rent because you aren't earning enough money you have to get a different job. It's as simple as that.
AlphaTwo00
Member
I've known my fair share of friends who were in both big studios and indie. The dropout rate is high, and quite a few were definitely a money thing. Sure, they love the work, but they value their skill and their time more. Trust me, many of them still love it (and I can say I'm in the same boat), but there was honestly no reasonable way to make ends meet in the city if they stick to it, so that's why they leave.
Having the passion to make games is one thing, but passion doesn't put food on the table.
Edit: I feel like I should update OP regarding how the sampling size is. Seems like EVERYONE is missing the fact that the Survey conducted requires the income reported by the dev to be between 10K-200K, whereas the $500 figure is about the revenue income generated with the game.
aspiegamer
Member
So we're nearing the territory of indie "developers" who toss up random or blatant clone apps and hope some people are stupid enough to buy them? There are a lot of people who deserve a whole lot better than that of course.
Could the true results be even worse overall, though? From the pdf--
We also excluded cases in which the compensation was given as less than $10,000 USD
That implies there could be a whole lot of tilt/variation and/or jobs that ultimately ended up being part-time work (or total busts) that were simply filtered out despite being a primary or only source of income for people.
Could the true results be even worse overall, though? From the pdf--
We also excluded cases in which the compensation was given as less than $10,000 USD
That implies there could be a whole lot of tilt/variation and/or jobs that ultimately ended up being part-time work (or total busts) that were simply filtered out despite being a primary or only source of income for people.
There's no actual way to poll anything like this but this is my gut feeling as well.
Are those from the main arcade section or from the ghetto section of the 360? The 360 opening up part of the console for hobbyists to make games isn't exactly what I was referring to.
Are you able to compile a similar list of shitty games on PS3, XBO, Vita, Wii-U, or PS4?
AlphaTwo00
Member
Yes, precisely.
Let me play a bit of devil's advocate: I'd like to see what percentage of those that earned above 200K were good.
We all know what sort of revenue Flappy Birds brought in for a while, and by that same measure, 2048 and Piano Tiles are well within that range as well. And we all know how most of this board feels about these games. But if you strictly look at revenue as a metrics, these games must be awesome!
That's fairyland talk. People live in a real world with real problems and obstacles to overcome. Who are we to judge the level of passion/dedication of others to their profession/livelihood with zero knowledge of all the circumstances that lead to their career decisions?
Crimsonclaw111
Member
I don't own a PS3 or PS4 or Vita, but I'm sure there's some shit up on the store as well.
There's always some good with the bad, just pointing out that there isn't just good on console indie markets.
What's always been strange to me is the perception that the small game developer should be able to make a living off of making games. Most musicians don't make a living touring and playing music. Even plenty of the "big" name genre bands that lots of people here listen to still have day jobs most of the time. Yes, a boom game can pay for itself, but as we see here, the vast majority don't, and that's fine. If anything, Kickstarter has just made this perception worse.
There are songs on "best of" albums that I don't really care for either. The point was that it's an overall better quality listing of games due to the hurdles to get your game on console leaves most of the little hobbyists game developers out.
CosmicQueso
Member
Cringe worthy.
Love don't pay the rent. Who are you to judge someone's passion and commitment?
WorriedCitizen
Member
I see this as a positive. The earlier the indie bubble bursts the better for actualy talented people who make good games. Ther's just way too much trash on app stores, steam etc. due to this gold rush, making it harder and harder for good games to get noticed in this ocean of shit.
I hope the bubble continues to grow. Discoverability problems won't change with what you call a burst of the indie bubble but availability will improve if it keeps growing. And independent developers will never disappear, they always existed. Their notability and importance is much more visible now, but that is incidental to the current industry environment.
AlphaTwo00
Member
I see the bubble bursting, but I don't know if what you considered "talented people who make good games" will still be around. As pointed out before in another article about indie bubble, there were 104 indie titles, in one PAX. If you consider this set of games as curated "good games", I wonder if anyone would like to follow up on how these games are, how these people are doing, and whether they are still sticking to making indie happen for them. My gut feeling is that if 50% of them are still around and still churning out games, you should consider that a success.
My personal experience with indie groups is that most don't have a long shelf-life. Once the reality of income hits, many end up reeling back, relatively quickly.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
The problem is that a lot of the "actually talented people" are having trouble making a living too.
Wyndstryker
Member
top 1% obviously.
RicoTheMad
Banned
As an indie with a full time job:
I think times are getting harder for indies. Expectations are sky high and the money people want to pay for them is getting smaller and smaller. Having a full time job and doing indie dev in my spare time, having a wife and a dog (no kids yet) is really hard. Your relationships suffer, your social life suffers, because your spare time is no longer spare time, its another job.
So think about this: Some people, like me, will continue making games because they love to do it. But it will take years and years (I'm going on 3 now) to release their games because everyone is part time. The investment of money, let alone time, put into these games is definitely not even close to breaking even.
Personally, I'll be happy to make my own money back and maybe get a bit of cash to put on the next project so I don't need to go into my savings anymore. But that said, "getting my money back" doesn't account for 99% of what I'm giving up, which is: Years of my life spent on a project, time I could be spending with my wife, friends and relaxing. Years I could be working on the side as a contractor and making a TON of cash.
So will lots of indies continue to pop up if the market caves in? I don't think so. Look at the modding scene a few years ago. It's picking up now a lot, but why? Because games like TF2 and DOTA 2 are letting people earn money from it. If they stopped earning money, what then? It gets significantly smaller, and the quality of MOST mods/games becomes lower, because fewer people are willing to make the time/money investments for such little returns.
Game valuation for indie/PC games is getting pretty nuts. It concerns me that people are willing to pay 8 dollars for a cup of coffee that takes 2 minutes and little skill to make, vs a game that takes multiple people YEARS to make and a multitude of technical skills that are not easy to acquire.
Mind you I'm talking about quality games, not shovel ware flappy bird crap.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
I'm not sure the indie bubble will ever "burst", exactly. It's like any other industry--the lower the barriers to entry (eg. the rise of Unity has "democratized" development by making it radically easier and cheaper), the more competition, and the lower the average profit per entrant. Eventually many devs will be driven away. This will mean less competition and more profits for the remaining devs. More devs may then enter the market, seeing the increasing profits to be made, and the cycle will repeat.
There are obviously lots of wrinkles and complications to that, but that seems like the basic pattern going on here. Unfortunately, I don't see the situation changing for indie devs...the vast majority are going to make peanuts. If the market drastically expands--which I can see happening--it won't matter once more devs enter the market.
There are obviously lots of wrinkles and complications to that, but that seems like the basic pattern going on here. Unfortunately, I don't see the situation changing for indie devs...the vast majority are going to make peanuts. If the market drastically expands--which I can see happening--it won't matter once more devs enter the market.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
I definitely sympathize, but the issue is that people have such a huge amount to play nowadays that there's not much value in adding yet another game to their backlogs. Like, you can get plenty of big, well-received, lengthy, recent-ish AAA games for super-cheap. Once you have dozens of unplayed, probably-great games on your Steam account, why buy stuff at any price other than dirt cheap? If it's something really unusual that you need to play immediately, sure, buy it. If it's $5 or less, sure, buy it. Otherwise, why not wait?
2% made >200k?? That seems high, considering how saturated the mobile market is with mediocre indie games. Is it time for me to invest $100k in 50 devs with hopes that 1 of them will bring me 200k?
What makes an indie dev an indie dev? Not being given venture capital? i.e. all money put into development is out of the pocket of the devs? I want to see investment vs. ROI data. What % of indie devs that invest <10k have ROI > 10k? etc
What makes an indie dev an indie dev? Not being given venture capital? i.e. all money put into development is out of the pocket of the devs? I want to see investment vs. ROI data. What % of indie devs that invest <10k have ROI > 10k? etc
Canis lupus
Member
How does this surprise anyone? There are thousands of indie games on app stores and steam that don't reach the top charts and remain invisible to the mainstream audience, most of them are trash/clones of popular games. If anything it surprises me the percentage is 57. They aren't of the level of say FTL, Hotline Miami etc, most look like newground flash games. You see some of them given away with obscure bundles.
eot
Banned
Stupid, knee-jerk response.
Go into one of Toma's indie game threads and look at the games.
RicoTheMad
Banned
I'm not saying I don't understand it, I totally do, I'm a gamer too, despite how little time I have to play nowadays.
I think the problem is that people are shifting from the feeling of "oh cool, I can get THIS great game for 5 bucks! What a steal!" to "Hey this game just released and its 15 dollars. What a ripoff, I bought X AAA game that's 2 years old for the same price last week and this is nowhere near as good"
People come to expect to get the same quality for equal or less than other games. The thing people seem to forget is that these same AAA games that are now 5 dollars were 60 dollars on release and already made their money, and are now picking up the scraps they can before fading away.
The problem this presents to indies is that these AAA games going for such low prices increase gamer expectations in respect to value for their money (this indie has worse graphics and costs the same) and while as a consumer this is a reasonable behavior, the end result will be developers quitting and not bothering trying to match the quality.
It's a big race to the bottom and what bugs me is that *we already know where it leads*. This exact same thing happened to the mobile market, started out with more expensive, paid games/apps. Race to the bottom and fast forward a few years and we end up with a market full of shovel ware crap and a couple of paid games a year that can command only 2 or 3 dollars per sale.
I think money talks. If as consumers we want to pay less, then developers, not just indies, will say "ok, but now you get this thing instead of this other thing instead".
I'm personally not ok with that. I'd rather pay a reasonable price for a good game, than a dollar for App Store garbage. This is why I don't play any mobile games :-/
Honestly, most people don't spend $4-$8 on a cup of coffee that frequently either, and those that do probably don't spend a penny on gaming. The market is flooded, especially on PC, and not even a "crash" will change that, because the games that already exist aren't suddenly going away. Look at the past two Humble Bundles this month, both full of "AAA" major titles that sold millions of copies at full price, now being sold for a fraction of the original price. Every game released now has to compete with that and isn't going to win.
They also have to compete with their own price history as well. Look at a game like Binding of Isaac: Rebirth. Original launched at $5. My girlfriend and I between us have over 300 hours in the original. If the remake launched at $60, would it be worth it on that scale? Of course. Would I buy it? Not a chance, I paid $5 for the original, I'm not paying $60 for a remake. Honestly the $20 that the remake will cost will be a tough sell for lots of people on the same principle.
It's no different than the music industry, things are just shifting. When I was a teen in the 90s I bought hundreds of CDs, but now I haven't bought any albums in years. With Pandora, Spotify, YouTube, and the like, why should I? Instead, I go to two or three concerts a year, something I never did as a teen. The money spent is similar, it just goes to a few groups instead of a bunch. In that same era, I bought 3-4 games a year at $60-$80 each, now I buy hundreds a year for less than a dollar each. (Of course in between I spent hundreds of dollars a year on World of Warcraft and not a dime on any other games, but that's a different issue entirely...)
Edit (just saw your second post) - I think the big difference with mobile games is there was no point that established an "everything should be free" phase in console or PC gaming. Yes, we have f2p games, but they don't dominate the market. The first time someone tried to sell me an android phone, they said "it's just like the iPhone but the apps are free." That destroyed the app market more than anything. Google still makes tons of money on apps as a result, developers just don't. Yes, there is a certain race to the bottom in indie/PC gaming, but the big successes are still big enough to provide drive and motivation for high quality. There isn't that long of a list of really awesome games that are failures. It's just the mid-range niche markets struggle more now. Yes, that's unfortunate, but that's more a result of the game industry chasing the movie industry model than it is from the flood of indies.
Thanks for sharing your insights. I've felt very similarly upon the issue of game valuation and how many just do not seem to realize how much it costs to make a game, and then have a problem spending anything over $10 (yet they'll spend tons on stuff like coffee and beer, but go figure), with some even going as far to start spouting "greedy devs" otherwise. Devs are not making a lot of money, and as noted, in places like San Francisco, you won't get very far on that income comparative to other industries.
Like every other art medium there will be tons of people making games and only a few will be successful doing so. Some might make a decent living out of it while others will use it as an hobby.
It's no different from music, painting or cinema. And this is a good thing. It's good to have tons of people making games and it's awesome that everyone can find something different to play if they search well enough.
I would love to make a living making games but, even if I can't achieve that, it's great that I can simply keep working on my projects and that I can publish them and hopefully find some people to play them.
It's no different from music, painting or cinema. And this is a good thing. It's good to have tons of people making games and it's awesome that everyone can find something different to play if they search well enough.
I would love to make a living making games but, even if I can't achieve that, it's great that I can simply keep working on my projects and that I can publish them and hopefully find some people to play them.
Duxxy3
Member
The iOS/Android market is completely flooded with awful awful games. The PC market isn't far behind. The indies that we are getting on consoles seem to have more quality control, but even then there have been some turds let through.
I feel sorry for those indie developers that love what they are doing, but just are not making it. Not everything is commercially viable.
I feel sorry for those indie developers that love what they are doing, but just are not making it. Not everything is commercially viable.
First of all, 1000 thanks for taking the time to give us your personal insight.
About the price expectations and availability. I agree with you 100%. Aggressive bundling, seasonal sales and store specific sales are creating a race to the bottom in terms of price expectation to the large majority of these games target audience. But I think (hope) that this increased availability also created a healthy following of "early adopters" consumers that will follow specific developers, genres, or teams paying full price and *could* compensate the fast crash of price after release. I don't think that will be sustainable for everyone. It's impossible. Some will exit the industry or move to a hobbyist status. But as you said. independent developers, modders, shareware creators will always exist, there will always be an audience for them. And I honestly think that video games still have space to grow in terms of audience expansion.
As a side note: Loved your site and though survival horror is not my usual genre of choice (I'm a chicken) I'll try The Unknown. hehe
Duxxy3
Member
That is the reality of the market though. $15 indie games have to compete against older, larger, games for the same dollar.
If I have the option of Shovel Knight or Black Flag... I'm taking Black Flag. That sucks for indie developers, but that is the free market at work.
Thanks for sharing -- I think this is a pretty reasonable assessment.
I am personally in a position where I have a decent job, yet am considering trying to do indie development full time for a year just to say I tried a dream once. By pretty much any RATIONAL assessment, it's an outright insane plan, and I would be gambling that I could even find a good software job once I fail at games. One of the only good parts is that I don't have a wife or kids, so if I fail, I only ruin my own life. =P
Stuff like this article only reinforces my concern. One note I am confused about though -- if they reported 10k but "made" less than $500, how does that work? Is the $500 the only profit and the rest went to expenses, or is this talking about something else?
RicoTheMad
Banned
Hey folks, no problem glad to share what insights I can. I'm living on the safe side of the indie spectrum, mostly because I know just how tough the industry is and I didn't want to give up my family's livelihood and peace of mind in pursuit of doing something I love full time :-/ The sad realities of life I suppose.
I think the main thing that will come out of then bubble bursting is less long term project games. As it stands right now, if you look at the average development time of a mobile game vs a desktop indie game, it's a huge disparity. Mobile games are sometimes made in days or weeks. I personally know a guy who makes 2 or 3 games per month. My personal thoughts on the quality of these games aside, they still get released and put on the market.
We all know the mobile market pays peanuts to most mobile developers who aren't King. Yet for some reason, people are still flooding the market hoping to be the exception to the rule. It's just that now, instead of buying the big Lotto ticket for 20 dollars, they buy the scratch off. IE: Instead of making a game for 2 years, make a game in a week and see if it sticks. this is literally the path people are taking, I'm not even joking.
So honestly while I would love to say that the bubble bursting for PC means less crappy indies, I think what we'll see is the few non-established indies fight a bloody battle for the scraps left and drive things to the bottom. I mean, I see no reason not to look straight at mobile and think this is the future we're headed to. Look at Unturned, free to play with "premium" purchase. The similarities are just too hard to miss.
Also, did you all notice how Steam has been flooded with mobile ports lately? The mobile devs have noticed Steam users pay a premium for their games, vs App Store users. I'm noticing quite a migration to desktop and Steam so if you thought the market was flooded now, wait a year and see where we land. Not pretty, I predict :-(
I agree, there's not much I or most people can do individually. I personally try to support indie projects I enjoy rather than wait for a sale (IE Purchased Divinity full price once I saw they were making the kinds of games/design I *want* to come back), but as a consumer, I fully agree that you should always try to get the best bang for your buck. Why not? It would be crazy not to.
I just hope that more people out there see things how I view them and maybe we'll be ok. Sometimes the bang for buck calculation isn't always about money. Sometimes it's worth paying the little extra money so I know that the devs making the games I love continue making them, rather than me buying Divinity: OS from Larian for example, and then having that be the very last game they make before they go bankrupt.
I think as gamers, we all need to consider these ideas. Steam is no longer a gate keeper. Much like the App Store, more games = more money for them. They get a cut no matter how crappy the game is, at the end of the day.
I think the main thing that will come out of then bubble bursting is less long term project games. As it stands right now, if you look at the average development time of a mobile game vs a desktop indie game, it's a huge disparity. Mobile games are sometimes made in days or weeks. I personally know a guy who makes 2 or 3 games per month. My personal thoughts on the quality of these games aside, they still get released and put on the market.
We all know the mobile market pays peanuts to most mobile developers who aren't King. Yet for some reason, people are still flooding the market hoping to be the exception to the rule. It's just that now, instead of buying the big Lotto ticket for 20 dollars, they buy the scratch off. IE: Instead of making a game for 2 years, make a game in a week and see if it sticks. this is literally the path people are taking, I'm not even joking.
So honestly while I would love to say that the bubble bursting for PC means less crappy indies, I think what we'll see is the few non-established indies fight a bloody battle for the scraps left and drive things to the bottom. I mean, I see no reason not to look straight at mobile and think this is the future we're headed to. Look at Unturned, free to play with "premium" purchase. The similarities are just too hard to miss.
Also, did you all notice how Steam has been flooded with mobile ports lately? The mobile devs have noticed Steam users pay a premium for their games, vs App Store users. I'm noticing quite a migration to desktop and Steam so if you thought the market was flooded now, wait a year and see where we land. Not pretty, I predict :-(
I agree, there's not much I or most people can do individually. I personally try to support indie projects I enjoy rather than wait for a sale (IE Purchased Divinity full price once I saw they were making the kinds of games/design I *want* to come back), but as a consumer, I fully agree that you should always try to get the best bang for your buck. Why not? It would be crazy not to.
I just hope that more people out there see things how I view them and maybe we'll be ok. Sometimes the bang for buck calculation isn't always about money. Sometimes it's worth paying the little extra money so I know that the devs making the games I love continue making them, rather than me buying Divinity: OS from Larian for example, and then having that be the very last game they make before they go bankrupt.
I think as gamers, we all need to consider these ideas. Steam is no longer a gate keeper. Much like the App Store, more games = more money for them. They get a cut no matter how crappy the game is, at the end of the day.
Are you 12?
Do your parents pay all your bills?
I too started out working towards graphic design and game art....ended up in Engineering doing inspection.
I love games and art design 1000000x more than engineering. The industry was a lot smaller when I came out of school and even the Indie scene was basically nothing then. The choices where I lived were awful if I wanted a job.
That's 11 years in the past now though.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Seems like that to me as well. I don't mind missing out on a bazillion indies when the better ones wind up on consoles.
JesseEwiak
Member
If I remember correctly, most video game jobs pay less than comparable jobs of the same type in other areas of the computing industry because of the, "hey, you're making video games instead of database software" factor.
In other words, somebody could go to say, IBM and make 125k, but at Ubisoft, the same job would only pay 90k because you're making Assassin's Creed, a game you love.
JetSetRadio
Banned
That's not too bad.
The fuck? @_@
Unless you have no obligations, sure, stick with a job that barely pays. I have parents to take care of, a sister to support, rent to pay, and a shitload of other things that everyone else worries about as well.
The fact is artists are severely underpaid, and they're expendable. It's not just happening at small studios too, just look at the recent debacle with Pixar and Ed Catmull. Look at what's happening at Crytek, or what happened to Rhythm and Hues.
You could make 2x the money doing previs work for Architecture and Oil & Gas companies and have much better job security.
I'm glad I moved on to a different career path. I still get to express my creativity and create, and I make mad paper on top of that.