Why did you even make this thread if all you're going to do is act like an asshole to anybody who doesn't agree with your viewpoint?
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A Story Not About Jeans
- Thread starter Malyse
- Start date
Why did you even make this thread if all you're going to do is act like an asshole to anybody who doesn't agree with your viewpoint?
You're being too sensitive. Taking the comments you've given in this thread, that you would not support that stance is absolutely not a surprise. Or are you of the opinion that we don't disagree on some basic points?
AKA stop crying and be happy with what you got.
akidnamededdy
Banned
Stuff like this doesn't help you. It's a valid point. People don't buy it so businesses don't make it. Put your money where your mouth is. Capitalism. Etc.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Unfortunately, I think he's right, at least partially. I don't think the answer is to "stop crying and just be happy with what you got," though.
"Vote with your wallet" is certainly a cliche of a thing to say, but I think it applies. There are developers out there doing interesting things and featuring more diverse protagonists. Their games may not have the same production values as stuff in the triple A space, but I think it would be far more effective to ensure that these folks are successful than it would be to simply yell at big publishers to do things that they currently think is not in their best financial interests.
Make a list of AAA games with minority leads that get the promotion and marketing that white leads do. Show me AAA games with character creation options that don't lead with a white dude a la Dragon Age and Mass Effect.
You can make something a hit. Assassins Creed and Watch_Dogs prove that. I sincerely do not believe they are doing more than an artifice of actual effort.
But that's just what I think.
Again, this is the high end AAA massive budget space. Can't vote for something not on the ballot.
Slappers Only
Junior Member
But all my jeans were designed by people who've been designing jeans for a long time. I want jeans from people who've never designed jeans. I foresee that jeans will be better this way.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
What do you propose the individual developers do? Ignore the demands of publishers who control the money? They can fight some things, but they can't win every battle.
The only way to do your own thing is to go independent, but that's a huge risk to ones livelihood that not everyone is willing to take. There are some, though, and those people should be supported if they are making good games or trying things that deserve support.
Disaster Nebraska
Banned
No, not at all. Let's take the standpoint of "there aren't enough females represented in videogames and I am simply asking for better representation".
Took me a whopping 5m to think back to all of the female protag games I've played over the last few years. I'm even ignoring games like Diablo III, Skyrim, Fallout, and other such games where the protag can simply pick from a number of races. Also omitting stuff like Cooking Mama, Barbie Whatever, Princess _____ and other such "clearly sexist" material.
Transistor
Portal 1 and 2
Velocity 2x
Rogue Legacy
Alice (American McGee series)
Giana Sisters
Trine 1 and 2
Gravity Rush
FF13 and beyond
Atelier series
Beyond Two Souls
Alien: Isolation
SkullGirls
AssCreed Liberation
Heavenly Sword
Don't Starve
Muramasa
Child of Light
RE Revelations
Mirror's Edge
Remember Me
The Banner Saga
Tomb Raider
Borderlands
Some of those sold decently. Most sold pretty poorly. All of them feature a woman either as a central character or the only main character. From a marketing and development and business standpoint, I would look at that and say "hmmm, I'm about to allocate 35m dollars to this next project with 25% devoted to marketing alone and I need such-and-such a return on this game. Should I paste a woman on the front cover?"
And there's also the nagging problem of "should I support this game because it has a <insert underrepresented group> in it, or should I support it because it's a good game?" Setting aside the cold, hard fact that having a female protag can diminish sales, is that really the message we want to send to devs? Surely, the quality of the game itself takes precedence over any perceived "equal representation" for a true gamer, doesn't it?
That's a big part of my gripe. I want good games. There are tons of things to complain about, and please don't think for a second that I'm implying people who want more diverse representation should shut up. Keep asking, but keep buying, because devs have been listening to you, obviously. But in a world of broken games hitting retail, endless DLC, removed features, bribed exclusivity, parity, and so forth, having a <insert underrepresented group> in the next Battlefield title really isn't at the top of my personal hit list. But hey, I'm a priviledged white male, so what do I know?
akidnamededdy
Banned
Don't look at me man, that's how it is. As lazy as "make your own fucking jeans" or whatever the hell the OP's point was, you really do have to be the change you want to see in the world sometimes.
Petitions and shit are great and warm and fuzzy but the only thing entertainment companies, like all companies, give a shit about is the bottom line.
Green Biker Dude
Banned
i don't wear pants so i can't relate to this story
I'm not sure if it's correct to limit this analogy to any specific sector of the gaming community. When anonymity is introduced as it is online, lots of people behave in a derogatory and insulting way toward anyone. IMO this is a reflection of declining moral standards in society at large.
Even here on GAF this is also a thing. The number of times I've seen users being derided and degraded for being a 'Junior' boggles my mind. Should be a bannable offence in my opinion. It's all about putting others down to make yourself feel big (which actually proves how small you are). Happens to everyone.
Even here on GAF this is also a thing. The number of times I've seen users being derided and degraded for being a 'Junior' boggles my mind. Should be a bannable offence in my opinion. It's all about putting others down to make yourself feel big (which actually proves how small you are). Happens to everyone.
LaserBuddha
Member
Umm...
No. Stop.
Look, there are only so many games out there, especially games with a big budget that happen to have a style of gameplay that I prefer. Final Fantasy XIV is one-of-a-kind, no matter how you spin it, and if it were worse about its representation of women than it is now I wouldn't have any alternatives BECAUSE THEY DON'T EXIST.
So of course I would instead give them feedback telling them to please keep up the good work so I can continue being a customer as opposed to so many other games I also happen to like but completely turn me off because they treat women like figurines. Please tell me this makes sense, because if not, I may have to dig deep for this one.
poorlonelycomputer
Member
Um. The message board example is EXACTLY the example the article used. I also generally just don't see the point in pointing out that backlash is from a "tiny minority." If most of the discourse is taking place online and it's dominated by hateful rhetoric and less hateful but still unhelpful dismissals, does it really matter how many people are behind that discourse? It's affecting the tone of the whole community, tiny minority or not.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Just to make sure I understand what you're saying, you recognize that there are not infinite resources to make lots of games for all audiences, and with this in mind, you would prefer it if more games catered to your tastes rather than some other group's (or, at the very least, included options that cater to your tastes). Right?
A. A number of those games aren't female lead; they just have playable females.
B. Those games represent a fraction of the games released in that period. Hell, if those were all released in the same year, it might barely be passable.
C. Hardly any of them got AAA budget or marketing.
Again, you can make something a hit. Again, they aint even trying.
Oh and most of if not all of the games that did get extensive marketing on your list sold well.
Edit:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation
Yeah, this got me. lol
There once was a man who made jeans. He made the jeans by hand, as he had done all his life. He put his heart and soul into his work. Sometimes customers came into his store wanting to buy shirts. He politely told them that he did not make shirts, because he did not have experience with them and he felt he could not make them to the quality his customers expected. This offended the people who wanted to buy shirts, so they decided to sue the jean maker, and protest and boycott him. The jean maker soon went out of business, and lost all he owned. Now he walks the cold streets as the leaves fall about him, and fears the long winter to come. He puts his hands in the pockets of his jeans to keep them warm, and there is a faint flicker of a smile because he made those jeans with his own hands. But somewhere in the distance he hears someone whisper "shirt hater" and the smile fades away, and the jean maker walks into the thickening fog, and the figure loses itself in the gloom.
I would prefer that they work to include everybody.
Believe it or not, FFXIV is actually a fairly decent effort at this - with a handful of notable exceptions (which unfortunately drag them down a bit, but they're still at least exceptions) most of the clothing and armor in the game is completely equivalent on both sexes. Furthermore, it gives you options to make particularly butch women or effeminate men, as well as making characters of a wide variety of racial persuasions. It's one of the most inclusive games on the market, and oddly enough it's by a Japanese developer, and oddly enough it is currently the second-most successful subscription-based MMORPG on the market. How's that for a success story, eh?
Now, mind you, games with set protagonists do not have this option, because obviously they don't have character creation and don't have a wide variety of outfits modeled out for the player character etc. My concern is largely for game that do allow for this, as it defeats the purpose of character creation and customization if you completely sex up the females to their detriment while the males are perfectly normal. FFXIV proves, to at least some extent, that equality works.
Oh yeah, and there's GW2, though... I don't really like talking about that game *cough*. It, too, is quite successful and does better than a lot of games on the market (though it, too, is also not quite perfect in this regard).
On the subject of set protagonists, I'm more lenient. I think it is at least worth considering whether or not a character actually benefits from being a straight white male, and I have my doubts that any popular AAA game would suddenly see a dip in sales just because they starred a minority instead of the same-old, same-old. Unfortunately, their risk-averseness means we largely don't see these experiments on actual high-budget games, so I can't say this with any certainty.
Tertullian
Member
Despite the thread title, I totally thought this was about jeans until I was, like, three fourths of the way through. I am not perceptive.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I totally agree that in games that offer customization, equivalency between genders is a good thing. Sexing up a piece of armor just for female characters is cringe-worthy. My personal pet peeve is boob shapes on plate armor. Has to be one of the dumbest ideas ever.
Not the same at all.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
I don't get it. Designer clothing is very specific and exclusionary with their sizing and it has been like that forever.
For instance, I could never buy SLP because I'm 6'4'' 220 pounds. I could probably fit into some of the pieces but it probably wouldn't be a comfortable fit. I think using fashion was the wrong choice.
For instance, I could never buy SLP because I'm 6'4'' 220 pounds. I could probably fit into some of the pieces but it probably wouldn't be a comfortable fit. I think using fashion was the wrong choice.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Buy them online.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
I'm aware. I'm just trying to understand why someone would use something that is just as bad and been around even longer.
It just doesn't make sense.
"You and your social justice friends just want to censor the jeans Im buying." Had a good chuckle at this line.
If this guy knew there was interest, wouldn't he just try to learn to make shirts? Or get somebody who could? Or do something other than shrug his shoulders?
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Yes, I got that feeling.
Neuromancer
Member
To be fair, that size of jeans is probably really hard to animate.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
It was a terrible analogy just like the analogy in the OP, but no. Why would the hypothetical jeans craftsman have any obligation or desire to do anything but keep making jeans if that were his passion in life?
900/30?
Disaster Nebraska
Banned
Wrong. Most of them are female-lead. Some of them feature multiple characters - none of them the "main" character - and women are included in that roster.
Nice try though.
The list is a fraction of the female-led games released in that period, too. What's your point? I told you that I'd omitted games like Diablo and Fallout and any other games where the main character can just pick a race / gender.
That still doesn't counter my point that the majority of those games didn't sell too well. Why would devs increase the percentage of female-led games if even the small niche of female-led games isn't selling? At this point you are closing your eyes and shouting "Lol how2business!!!"
A lot of them got a AAA budget. Most of those still flopped or failed to make back the money the publishers wanted (e.g Tomb Raider Reboot)
What constitutes as "trying"? Can you answer that? I think I've demonstrated that devs already are pushing diversity and delivering games with non-white-male protagonists and characters.
Please be specific. In what way is this not "trying" and what does "trying" look like to you?
Some did. Some didn't. Are you contradicting yourself? There's no AAA games in the list but the games that got extensive marketing did well? Mmmkay.
Nice wiki link. Only problem is that I'm not trying to shut down discussion or "disprove" your argument by stating that I - personally - find more importance in other areas. The business aspect, which you have so far failed to disprove or address, is far more pertinent so I'd focus your efforts on that one.
You're not helping your argument with posts like this.
Benzychenz
Member
To start with, I'm not defending the way things are or saying I agree with it, I'm just giving my thoughts on why it is this way.
Okay, so, jeans and games are two very different things that can't be compared together like this. Why? One is simply business, one is a creative art form.
With jeans it's easy to say, oh 50% of the audience is male, 50% is female, and out of those 30% are plus size, so the jeans on the shelf should match those figures, because well, they should match those figures to get the most sales.
But with games it's not simply business. Yes, there is a business side, but that business side hires people to do the grunt work, and hires directors to create their visions. What you should be looking to see if the figures match up is 'what amount of games star white/male/whatever protagonists' and 'what amount of game directors are white/male/whatever'.
The solution isn't to force a straight white male director comfortable writing straight white male characters to create a female to appeal to a different audience, it is to have more women/people of colour/whatever wanting to work in directing roles in this industry, and that is something that will take time.
You already see it in places, the staff on Animal Crossing is something like a 50% split between males and females and the result was a game with wide appeal, that is what needs to happen in the industry as a whole.
Okay, so, jeans and games are two very different things that can't be compared together like this. Why? One is simply business, one is a creative art form.
With jeans it's easy to say, oh 50% of the audience is male, 50% is female, and out of those 30% are plus size, so the jeans on the shelf should match those figures, because well, they should match those figures to get the most sales.
But with games it's not simply business. Yes, there is a business side, but that business side hires people to do the grunt work, and hires directors to create their visions. What you should be looking to see if the figures match up is 'what amount of games star white/male/whatever protagonists' and 'what amount of game directors are white/male/whatever'.
The solution isn't to force a straight white male director comfortable writing straight white male characters to create a female to appeal to a different audience, it is to have more women/people of colour/whatever wanting to work in directing roles in this industry, and that is something that will take time.
You already see it in places, the staff on Animal Crossing is something like a 50% split between males and females and the result was a game with wide appeal, that is what needs to happen in the industry as a whole.
See my reply three dozen posts ago. Not that it remotes has anything to do with you
Didn't realize I was breaking the rules officer. I'm not making fun of them at all, so how about you mind your own business? Particularly considering that you clearly don't understand that that's far from uncommon in that thread?
As someone who's been making "jeans" for nearly 20 years, my response to you is this:
I got the point, just like that guy in Thunderball. Chose to make a different allegory for another point. Technically OP's jean allegory was only about overweight people. The jean company didn't discriminate on race or sexual preference. Although there is some suggestion of sexism as the jean company appears to only make men's jeans. As for the vile internet hate speech, I didn't want to go into that too much, it's a nasty business.
His passion was craftsmansip. The jean maker is a storyteller. He is (assumed to be) a white man. Jeans are caucasian male protagonists. He makes white male protagonists because he is one, and he knows what it's like. Just because he doesn't make shirts doesn't mean he hates them, he wears one himself. He consumes that product, the shirt, the minority protagonist story. But because he is not a shirt, he has not written them. Doesn't mean he would have never made shirts, but at the time he is not confident that he could make them well, that is, do justice to a minority character. He doesn't understand their struggles as well as he does his own, but as evidenced by the end of the allegory, he is learning...
MorisUkunRasik
Member
You're not interested in discussion, best take a shit in front of everyone.
But your post jeans don't fit him!
He could very well stick to his passion, but he's not obligated to do that just because he's been doing it for a while, either. There's nothing stopping him from trying something different. He knows people would be interested in it, and he may discover a new passion.
But basically, as has already been said, the analogy is terrible.
No, I won't mind my own business. When you make a post on a forum you throw it over to everyone. You present your words for everyone to see and comment on. I am seeing your words and commenting on them. Put me on ignore if you don't want to see what I have to say, or report me to a mod.
And I do it all right in front of peoples faces, where they can see. I don't run around a corner and point fingers and whisper.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
...What? He's not a fucking pair of jeans either. If he's not confident in his own ability, he wouldn't put in any effort to get better, maybe get someone with experience? And why does he have to... "write" about a "shirt's" "struggles"? There's a lot of good stuff going on with shirts that he could try writing about, right?
(Seriously thoug, what even is this analogy)
I don't think it's a very good analogy (the one in the OP I mean), and I don't think it's likely to sway anyone who doesn't already agree that video games have a problem with representation.
Of course, I do agree that there is a problem, and would like nothing more than to have more variety in video game protagonists (and supporting characters as well).
Of course, I do agree that there is a problem, and would like nothing more than to have more variety in video game protagonists (and supporting characters as well).