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A Story Not About Jeans
- Thread starter Malyse
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You need to take a break before a mod gives you a break.
Galactic Barret
Member
As a
dark-skinned male of average weight and height, I have never said this about games. I'm fine with guys like Franklin and CJ, Jason Brody and Max Payne. Maybe its apathy, but the color issue in games don't faze me at all. I didn't understand the RE5 controversy, either. I prefer arguing real world issues on race instead of videogames. I feel, deep down, the more we argue about things that make sense (black zombies in Africa), the less fun we'll have because everyone is walking on eggshells.
Now I do agree that LGBT need more representation covering both spectrums. That sect of gamers has been under represented for too long, mostly out of fear. The only problem is taking each milestone in stride; it used to be the Black guys dying first in horror movies, but eventually we survived til the end. Give it time, step by step, and eventually the fear will disapate and we'll have some semblance of equality. Maybe never fully equal, for race, gender or sexual orientation, but it will be close enough where we won't have to be ashamed about any of them.
Thats the dream, at least.
really
Now I do agree that LGBT need more representation covering both spectrums. That sect of gamers has been under represented for too long, mostly out of fear. The only problem is taking each milestone in stride; it used to be the Black guys dying first in horror movies, but eventually we survived til the end. Give it time, step by step, and eventually the fear will disapate and we'll have some semblance of equality. Maybe never fully equal, for race, gender or sexual orientation, but it will be close enough where we won't have to be ashamed about any of them.
Thats the dream, at least.
I'm not breaking the rules. I haven't done anything wrong. I've pointed something out thats simply true. To expand on that and explain my reasoning for it, I like the OP. I agree with the message. But it isn't coming from a genuine place, and other posters have noticed it too.
He's not literally writing shirts..
If this isn't making sense, it doesn't make it lies.
LaserBuddha
Member
Dream Drop you really need to chill the fuck out. I'm on your side as far as the original topic here, but your childish behavior here and childish comments in that OTC thread about this discussion are unravelling this discussion more than anything anyone else is saying. Your arrogance and verbal bullying and mocking are making you look bad to everyone. I mean how do you even repost someone else's words on a public forum to talk shit about them, and then tell them to mind their own business?
uncredited male
Member
The game industry loves to play if safe. And for the most part history backs this up as a smart business decision. When games tend to deviate from the norm they usually sell an order of magnitude less than the standard fare.
"You say to make these different games, and then you don't buy them," must have been thought by some game executive sometime
As a developer it must be hard to convince the people paying for something to invest in an unknown quantity so to speak. It also puts more expectations on games using nonstandard mechanics and archetypes when they do get greenlit.
When a military-action FPS bombs no one says that the problem was it was a military-action FPS.
I guess the best way to alter the current situation would be to show that games can embrace some of these things and enjoy relative financial success compared to their more traditional counterparts. However, based on history I am unsure how to do that. And I don't think anyone really has an concrete answer.
"You say to make these different games, and then you don't buy them," must have been thought by some game executive sometime
As a developer it must be hard to convince the people paying for something to invest in an unknown quantity so to speak. It also puts more expectations on games using nonstandard mechanics and archetypes when they do get greenlit.
When a military-action FPS bombs no one says that the problem was it was a military-action FPS.
I guess the best way to alter the current situation would be to show that games can embrace some of these things and enjoy relative financial success compared to their more traditional counterparts. However, based on history I am unsure how to do that. And I don't think anyone really has an concrete answer.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
You're allowed to come post in the thread instead of just looking
promise
promise
þen
How did you even do that?
I'm not trying to make this about me. I've never tried to make this about me. Making this about me and my personality is derailing as all fuck.
The jean maker has the hearing of a Kryptonian.
If you can not write a character that is different than you then you are a bad writer and should get help to improve or should not be writing. Just stop and think about how ludicrous that suggestion is. Stephen King was not a pubescent girl with psychic powers when he wrote Carrie. The vast majority of stories are authored by people who are not the characters within them.
I have a lot of jeans. Some fit me better than others, but none fit me exactly. The real problem is that I have so many jeans that I can't decide which ones to wear. I'll look through them all occasionally, but most of the time I'll just go for some comfy well worn sweatpants while all of my jeans sit in the drawer with the tags and stickers still on them.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
You've gotten to the root of the issue. The jeans backlog.
Yeah, I can see I have fans there. That vine is kinda funny though.
I don't really post in OT, I only come to Gaf for gaming stuff. I clicked on DreamDrop's name, because I actually liked the OP, I liked the analogy and it to me was an interesting way to look at the situation so I was looking for more. Was surprised by the results.
Feeling that a hobby and medium that you've come to love doesn't represent you and your experiences in a meaningful way is frustrating. On some levels, it's a frightening realization to come to. I wouldn't react to people giving examples of games that have bucked that trend as you've described it with a growing list of disqualifiers, as much as I would at least attempt to see it as an opportunity (if they're games I hadn't personally played). I do think insisting that "AAA" games and "mainstream" games necessarily must represent you is silly in the same ways I think people saying they "only enjoy" those kinds of games in a different context are being silly. Games really are games, and are meaningful on the same levels.
Indie games tend to be deeply personal. They represent opportunities for the exact sorts of "jeans" you seem to be looking for. I do think it's unfortunate to dismiss them. May I recommend looking into "A Closed World," a game project from a while back that attempted to integrate the queer experience into traditional game mechanics in a significant way.
I care about this topic, which is why I've tried similarly to make the efforts around us more visible, for the sake of those who care deeply about it.
Indie games tend to be deeply personal. They represent opportunities for the exact sorts of "jeans" you seem to be looking for. I do think it's unfortunate to dismiss them. May I recommend looking into "A Closed World," a game project from a while back that attempted to integrate the queer experience into traditional game mechanics in a significant way.
I care about this topic, which is why I've tried similarly to make the efforts around us more visible, for the sake of those who care deeply about it.
SnoopyClownGang
Neo Member
It's simple economics. Any rational company won't provide goods or services where the expected value is not greater than the opportunity cost. If you think their calculations are incorrect, then make the game yourself. If you don't know how to make a game, then pay someone else to. If you can't afford to do that, then crowdsource your game. If people are willing to fund your game, then companies will likely raise the calculations of expected value for creating similar games. If people aren't willing to pay to fund the game, then why would you expect a major publisher to absorb the costs of funding a game people don't want to pay for?
I like the part where this guy is calling spirity a coward while calling him out in a different fucking thread.
Yup. This thread is now all about me. Unsubscribed, do whatever you want.
This is exactly what I'm getting at with my other questions. I mean, who in the gaming industry has experience dealing with superpowers, aliens, zombies, demons, etc.?
Writers don't have to know about a minority's struggle, and they don't have to write about their struggles from a minority perspective. Minorities are still people. People are complex and multifaceted. A person's race/sexuality/disability/belief/etc. is not the entirety of their identity.
Neuromancer
Member
Sounds like someone who can easily find well-fitting jeans to buy would say.
Neuromancer
Member
A Thread Not About DreamDrop
Maybe he wasn't a good writer and that's why people were asking about shirts
Galactic Barret
Member
I disagree. Sometimes, you just can't fathom how hard it is to be someone else. Stephen King's Carrie had no personality, just a hunger to live a normal life (based off the movie, at least). The Shining, though? Some of his best work, because he could make a framework of his life and some of the difficulties he went through and transpose them to a character of similar gender/race. They say put a few monkeys in a room with a typewriter and they could write Shakespeare, but could they write Mandela's story? Or Pursuit of Happiness? I don't know, but those stories are made more powerful because the author lived it. You can have general knowledge of a particular subject, but completely lose its magic and mystery when you haven't lived it; those people get accused of "phoning it in". Its better to say nothing at all than to say anything about something you know little about personally only to incur the wrath of people who have dealt with it.
Yes, a (good/great) writer would do the research to find out more, live in similar conditions, etc. But would a heterosexual man write a more compelling book on LGBT issues than a person of that community? Does a caucasian male from Manhatten know how to write 'Hood Books' better than someone who has lived in the 'hood'? Anything is possible, but leaving it to someone better suited to it isn't wrong. Maybe a little cowardly, but not inherently wrong.
I understand the methaphor, but it's still wrong.
Ferruccio Lamborghini, the man who would found Lamborghini, was fond of the Ferraris, but considered them too noisy and rough to be proper road cars, likening them to repurposed track cars. When Lamborghini discovered that the clutch on his Ferrari was broken, and was actually the same clutch that he used on his tractors, Lamborghini went to Ferrari and asked for a better replacement. Ferrari responded, saying that he was just a tractor maker, and could not know anything about sports cars.Lamborghini decided to pursue an automobile manufacturing venture with the goal of bringing to life his vision of a perfect grand tourer.
If you want something that you can't find anywhere, something that is really different, you have to create it yourself. Not just ask (or force) people to change it. If for that Jeans company is not profitable, they are not going to make it.
Ferruccio Lamborghini, the man who would found Lamborghini, was fond of the Ferraris, but considered them too noisy and rough to be proper road cars, likening them to repurposed track cars. When Lamborghini discovered that the clutch on his Ferrari was broken, and was actually the same clutch that he used on his tractors, Lamborghini went to Ferrari and asked for a better replacement. Ferrari responded, saying that he was just a tractor maker, and could not know anything about sports cars.Lamborghini decided to pursue an automobile manufacturing venture with the goal of bringing to life his vision of a perfect grand tourer.
If you want something that you can't find anywhere, something that is really different, you have to create it yourself. Not just ask (or force) people to change it. If for that Jeans company is not profitable, they are not going to make it.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
Companies are not interested in "all" potential costumers, only in "profitable" costumers.
People who complains about that probably never had an own bussiness.
Why do you think Apple do not make 50us phones?
I was going to list all the other stories which King has written that are excellent and clearly not an injection of himself but, really, I can just respond with The Shining as well. That story works because you get all three principal characters' perspectives. The story isn't simply locked into Jack's head and follows him around as the only developed character and it is the unnerving horror of Wendy watching her husband go mad beyond her understanding and control which, I would argue, is the key point in The Shining's success.
Put simply, while King used his life as a framework, he still populated the story with people that weren't him. Bandit1's argument is that the storyteller makes stories about white male Caucasians because he is one and, being the sole perspective of experience, is all he knows. No (good) author does this. The equivalence would be that Wendy would have to be written as another white, drunken, male Caucasian who was also a failed writer because that is what King was.
There are lots of fantastic stories that are not based on an author's biographical experiences. Seriously, the assertion that writers only write themselves should be immediately laughable. Especially in novels where there are quite often more than one principal character that is fully developed and explored. Do we demand that fantasy writers shunt themselves through extra-dimensional portals so they can experience some high medieval time period with dragons and magic? Of course not, that's ludicrous. Almost as ludicrous as suggesting that the task of writing well-rounded female characters should only be done by women.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
I feel like the problem is that most of these folks are complaining that the jeans that ARE made aren't cut in their style. They're not asking for more jeans, they're asking that the existing jeans be made to fit them.
That makes people instantly defensive of the jeans they like.
"Why can't these jeans also have more zippers"
Why can't these jeans be prefaded"
etc
Edit: Actually I don't think I was fair there. I should have said the ones that get a lot of press are about that. And obviously no person ever deserves to be harrassed or threatened over prewashed jeans.
That makes people instantly defensive of the jeans they like.
"Why can't these jeans also have more zippers"
Why can't these jeans be prefaded"
etc
Edit: Actually I don't think I was fair there. I should have said the ones that get a lot of press are about that. And obviously no person ever deserves to be harrassed or threatened over prewashed jeans.
WrenchNinja
Member
The hoops people jump through to defend the status quo are truly amazing.
Tinfoilhatsron
Banned
Yes the 'story' is bad, but not because men can't relate to it, but I feel it's a terrible analogy. Not sure why authors dance around the subject, when in most cases the message isn't clear enough or the message is poorly reasearched.
It parallels Hollywood actor/casting discussion, which is also quite interesting.
Disaster Nebraska
Banned
The generalizations people make to avoid contributing to the discussion are truly lazy.
WrenchNinja
Member
Generalisation, riiiiiight.
Codeblew
Member
I don't understand what you mean. Could you expand on that please?
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I'll take this one
Since the majority of posters in the thread are trying to be witty with jeans stories or apathetic about diversity in games, you could generally say they don't have anything of value to contribute. They generally don't care about representation because they're generally already represented, and generally would rather not think about it
