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After reading this, only retards will liken Umbrella Chronicles to Gun Survivor
- Thread starter cvxfreak
- Start date
azrael p.o.s.
Member
Cross-posting my thoughts from elsewhere... WHAT ABOUT THE AI?
Some criteria comes to mind when I think about zombies. No, not criteria that I derive from a combination of previous Resident Evil games. After all, Umbrella Chronicles is a "brand new all original title". Arguably Capcom's first shot at an original and in-depth Wii experience, it seems now is as great a time as any to take a fresh look at the old, undead friends we've been conditioned to kill indiscriminately.
Nooo! Rails & Kevin Federline Zombies:
There are two types of games generally considered to be "on rails." Killer-7, Suda 51's attempt at making a nightmare into a hella surreal video game, demonstrated what many GameCube veterans may think about when "on rails" comes to mind. Although killers in the game could only walk along straight paths, the exploration and puzzle-solving elements of Killer-7 required game mechanics where characters could make 180 degree turns in addition to taking branched paths. For those who have not played the game, the sensation is comparable to being trapped in a see-through corridor about the width of your body, watching the bad guys run at you from a safe distance.
Now, I do not intend to take anything from Killer-7. In fact, it has hyped me up on Suda's ability to direct to the point where his titles are console-sellers for me. However, I'll be one of the first to point out that many considered combat in Killer-7 to often times be stale and maybe boring. The flipside to having greater freedom of movement in the on rail schema was the ability to maintain a safe distance from enemies. The second type of on rails plays like a classic arcade lightgun game; being pushed forward involuntarily forward and for the most part - only focusing on aiming. StarFox 64 if you're a Nintendo fan that's been living under a rock.
Umbrella Chronicles seems to be much closer to this type of on rails style, with only limited ability to go through branched paths and virtually no ability to backtrack or "run backwards" voluntarily. Think tight corridor, but with bigger see-through panes (freedom of vision via nunchuku relative to c-stick) than Killer-7's and no backtracking.
What does all this mean for Umbrella Chronicle AI? The Killer-7 on rails style seemingly allowed for greater replay value of any particular room or scenario. The artificial intelligence had one path to get to your killer, but the forward movement of enemies was adjusted based on the movements of the players. Smiles may begin running at you or acting in certain ways at predetermined distances, but those exact distances never remained. For example, the first time you may encounter a pair of Smiles in a room, you may be further in before realizing that they've spotted you. The second time, you can choose to sit at the doorway and take them from a distance, instead.
The major problem this poses for UC, in my mind, is its capacity for the artificial intelligence to be anything other than completely predetermined. With the game itself pushing the players progress rather than voluntary movement on a linear path, it seems that every time you engage in an encounter, the zombies will be at the same place, at the same time, in same number, attacking you in similar fashion every play-through. The heavy emphasis on choreographed scenes only seems to validate my worry. This is not to say that Umbrella Chronicles is headed towards gaming purgatory. Instead, I think it's important for us to understand under what sort of restrictions Capcom may be working with, based on their approach to UC. Of course, Capcom may choose to program alternate zombie spawns for different difficulties or save games, but anything I could say on the topic would be pure speculation.
Environmental Interaction, Physics:
Having watched through gameplay trailers from Capcom's GDC, I was incredibly disappointed by how zombies seemed to respond to gunfire. Yes, zombies fell, they had their heads blown off, and some of them even decided to come back to life. But where were the limbs?
Maybe it's just me but in 2007 I expect significantly improved body physics. When I shoot a zombie in the knee-caps with a shotgun, don't I have the right to expect it's legs to be blown off? Shouldn't it start crawling at me? If an independent development team was able to pull this off over two years ago, why can't a relatively large Capcom team?
I'm not sure if this is even really a design limitation. More dynamic bodies doesn't need to translate into smarter artificial intelligence. Rather, all we want is a realistic combat experience. I hope that I'm wrong here and Capcom decided to put in some extra effort on the zombies but so far, it looks like my dreams are dead in the water. When shot, zombies just seem to stop for a second and maybe move their upper bodies back slightly (even when shot in the lower body?).
And what about overall zombie interaction? I'm incredibly curious as to what Capcom has decided to do with zombies. One of the most stunning elements of next-generation games like Bioshock and Darkness (360) is the sheer amount of effort the developers seemed to put into enemies' personality. Depending where they are in the environment and what objects are around them, baddies will respond in drastically different ways. I really wonder how far Capcom will push for something similar.
At a minimum, it'd be nice to have the ability to influence the environment yourself. The destructible furniture that appears in what footage we've seen of Umbrella Chronicles seems like a great start. It's great that we can have some sort of in-depth interaction with the environment... but will the zombies? Can they grab broken chair legs that you leave for them and use them as a weapon? I guess this is more of a question for those who've had the opportunity to get their hands on UC, but do the zombies seem to be aware of each other to any extent?
Anyhow, I hope I didn't go off on too many tangents or venture too far into the realm of speculation. Despite what hesitations I may have about Capcom's approach to Umbrella Chronicles, I think the game looks absolutely fantastic. The day I can experience a horde of zombies charging into my Wii-mote directed shotgun shells is one that I'm looking forward to with much anticipation and high expectations.
Some criteria comes to mind when I think about zombies. No, not criteria that I derive from a combination of previous Resident Evil games. After all, Umbrella Chronicles is a "brand new all original title". Arguably Capcom's first shot at an original and in-depth Wii experience, it seems now is as great a time as any to take a fresh look at the old, undead friends we've been conditioned to kill indiscriminately.
Nooo! Rails & Kevin Federline Zombies:
There are two types of games generally considered to be "on rails." Killer-7, Suda 51's attempt at making a nightmare into a hella surreal video game, demonstrated what many GameCube veterans may think about when "on rails" comes to mind. Although killers in the game could only walk along straight paths, the exploration and puzzle-solving elements of Killer-7 required game mechanics where characters could make 180 degree turns in addition to taking branched paths. For those who have not played the game, the sensation is comparable to being trapped in a see-through corridor about the width of your body, watching the bad guys run at you from a safe distance.
Now, I do not intend to take anything from Killer-7. In fact, it has hyped me up on Suda's ability to direct to the point where his titles are console-sellers for me. However, I'll be one of the first to point out that many considered combat in Killer-7 to often times be stale and maybe boring. The flipside to having greater freedom of movement in the on rail schema was the ability to maintain a safe distance from enemies. The second type of on rails plays like a classic arcade lightgun game; being pushed forward involuntarily forward and for the most part - only focusing on aiming. StarFox 64 if you're a Nintendo fan that's been living under a rock.
Umbrella Chronicles seems to be much closer to this type of on rails style, with only limited ability to go through branched paths and virtually no ability to backtrack or "run backwards" voluntarily. Think tight corridor, but with bigger see-through panes (freedom of vision via nunchuku relative to c-stick) than Killer-7's and no backtracking.
What does all this mean for Umbrella Chronicle AI? The Killer-7 on rails style seemingly allowed for greater replay value of any particular room or scenario. The artificial intelligence had one path to get to your killer, but the forward movement of enemies was adjusted based on the movements of the players. Smiles may begin running at you or acting in certain ways at predetermined distances, but those exact distances never remained. For example, the first time you may encounter a pair of Smiles in a room, you may be further in before realizing that they've spotted you. The second time, you can choose to sit at the doorway and take them from a distance, instead.
The major problem this poses for UC, in my mind, is its capacity for the artificial intelligence to be anything other than completely predetermined. With the game itself pushing the players progress rather than voluntary movement on a linear path, it seems that every time you engage in an encounter, the zombies will be at the same place, at the same time, in same number, attacking you in similar fashion every play-through. The heavy emphasis on choreographed scenes only seems to validate my worry. This is not to say that Umbrella Chronicles is headed towards gaming purgatory. Instead, I think it's important for us to understand under what sort of restrictions Capcom may be working with, based on their approach to UC. Of course, Capcom may choose to program alternate zombie spawns for different difficulties or save games, but anything I could say on the topic would be pure speculation.
Environmental Interaction, Physics:
Having watched through gameplay trailers from Capcom's GDC, I was incredibly disappointed by how zombies seemed to respond to gunfire. Yes, zombies fell, they had their heads blown off, and some of them even decided to come back to life. But where were the limbs?
Maybe it's just me but in 2007 I expect significantly improved body physics. When I shoot a zombie in the knee-caps with a shotgun, don't I have the right to expect it's legs to be blown off? Shouldn't it start crawling at me? If an independent development team was able to pull this off over two years ago, why can't a relatively large Capcom team?
I'm not sure if this is even really a design limitation. More dynamic bodies doesn't need to translate into smarter artificial intelligence. Rather, all we want is a realistic combat experience. I hope that I'm wrong here and Capcom decided to put in some extra effort on the zombies but so far, it looks like my dreams are dead in the water. When shot, zombies just seem to stop for a second and maybe move their upper bodies back slightly (even when shot in the lower body?).
And what about overall zombie interaction? I'm incredibly curious as to what Capcom has decided to do with zombies. One of the most stunning elements of next-generation games like Bioshock and Darkness (360) is the sheer amount of effort the developers seemed to put into enemies' personality. Depending where they are in the environment and what objects are around them, baddies will respond in drastically different ways. I really wonder how far Capcom will push for something similar.
At a minimum, it'd be nice to have the ability to influence the environment yourself. The destructible furniture that appears in what footage we've seen of Umbrella Chronicles seems like a great start. It's great that we can have some sort of in-depth interaction with the environment... but will the zombies? Can they grab broken chair legs that you leave for them and use them as a weapon? I guess this is more of a question for those who've had the opportunity to get their hands on UC, but do the zombies seem to be aware of each other to any extent?
Anyhow, I hope I didn't go off on too many tangents or venture too far into the realm of speculation. Despite what hesitations I may have about Capcom's approach to Umbrella Chronicles, I think the game looks absolutely fantastic. The day I can experience a horde of zombies charging into my Wii-mote directed shotgun shells is one that I'm looking forward to with much anticipation and high expectations.
cvxfreak said:Now this is what we call real criticism.
I agree with the possibility of many of the points you bring up.
But the game's actually due closer to the end of the year, rather than summertime.
IGN says Summertime. =x
From their RE: UC article.
jarrod said:
Wow, I didn't realize Cavia had been behind Gun Survivor 4. I remember seeing Tatsuya Minami's name on the credits, and he was also behind Biohazard Zero. I had also heard previously that GS4 was a Production Studio 3 game. Oops. :lol
Kintaro said:
I think they confused UC with RE4 Wii, which has a summertime date.
MiamiWesker
Member
cvx I love you... in a non-gay way... not that there is anything wrong with that.
Andonuts said:
after 6 games in 3rd person, RE:UC's 1st person view will strike any RE fan as an outrageous provocation.
I don't mind new games like this, I am o.k with RE:UC.
I am sure everyone calling this game shit and crap don't really mean it, they just wished they were getting something else something.
It's final fantasy crystal chronicles all over again, FF fans wanted some kind of FFX experience on gamecube, imagine their disappointment when they first played FF:CC for 30 minutes.. ( even though FF:CC was wonderful )
Tose also was behind The Nightmare Before Christmas and UG&G :jarrod said:
http://www.mobygames.com/game/psp/ultimate-ghosts-n-goblins/credits
http://www.mobygames.com/game/ps2/tim-burtons-the-nightmare-before-christmas-oogies-revenge/credits
BTW, it seems that Production Studios don't exist anymore =P
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
cvxfreak said:
We can still use them to talk about where the teams are from largely, anyway are you sure everyone that did the PS2 version of NbC was from TOSE using the DMC engine? (IIRC their involvement was more in the GBA version) I'm kinda doubting UGnG was outsourced.vala said:
Yes, i'm 100% positive about Tose being the developer on both games
I don't think so... let's take for example Gyakuten Saiban 4:
Shu Takumi, director - Studio 4
Kazuya Nuri, character designer - Studio 3
Minae Matsukawa, producer - Studio 5
Toshihiko Horiyama, composer - Studio 2
As you can see, is impossible to know which "team" is making the game , even if you know the name of the producer or director :/
I don't think so... let's take for example Gyakuten Saiban 4:
Shu Takumi, director - Studio 4
Kazuya Nuri, character designer - Studio 3
Minae Matsukawa, producer - Studio 5
Toshihiko Horiyama, composer - Studio 2
As you can see, is impossible to know which "team" is making the game , even if you know the name of the producer or director :/
I guess I shouldn't be surprised Capcom outsourced their only original PSP game, and I can't really judge TOSE based on name-only anymore.
How in the world do you and jarrod find all this out?
That's only going to make things harder in the future then. :\vala said:
How in the world do you and jarrod find all this out?
To -dismiss- the game as 'another gun survivor'....yeah, that's dumb. But to compare the two? Perfectly valid. UC is a light-gun based RE title, and the GS games vary quite a bit from one to the next (as you point out yourself).
In any case, I'm personally damned excited to play more UC. If they add a bunch of optional bits, paths, timing-base stuff and secrets to give it depth and replay, could be really awesome. (think Pokemon Snap, but with Zombies
)
In any case, I'm personally damned excited to play more UC. If they add a bunch of optional bits, paths, timing-base stuff and secrets to give it depth and replay, could be really awesome. (think Pokemon Snap, but with Zombies
)IfAllElseFailsUseFire
Member
Andonuts said:
would time crisis 4 run on wii? was it based on the same engine as time crisis 3?
and why not a HOTD 3 port? moving the nunchuk would be like reloading the shotgun
I really doubt the game will take 15 hours to finish if they don't mix up the constant gunfights with some slower segments. You're essentially blazing through the environments in a speed run-like fashion - imagine the huge amount of assets Capcom would have to create for it to last 15 hours.
I would just like to counter the great CVXs post, who is indeed a great person. I honestly think UC is a disgrace and will suck. I am hoping to eat crow when the game is released, but as it stands I have no hope for this game.
The whole first person on rails has totally destroyed my anticipation. Why Capcom why!
Now I'm off to troll other threads, most likley Lair for the massive downgrade, or any random Xbox 360 game to complete my all encompassing hate.
The whole first person on rails has totally destroyed my anticipation. Why Capcom why!
Now I'm off to troll other threads, most likley Lair for the massive downgrade, or any random Xbox 360 game to complete my all encompassing hate.
Ack, my mistake! I meant Nextech (now NEX Entertainment)... they also made Cobra: The Arcade.Defensor said:
Holishit! TOSE was (at least somewhat) behind UGNG?! Shocking!vala said:
Also, I think there's just more crossover in the production studios now that Inafune's taken over.... different producers will cross over and work with new teams on projects (like Lost Planet, which had key staff from the Onimusha games leading a mainly Studio 4 team... ditto for RE5 apparently). Studios 3 & 5 seem to have been gutted entirely though, and staff distributed among the other studios and Clover (before they were gutted also), likely due to low sales of their games.
I still maintain though that Inafune sabotaged Studio 3 purposely once he rose to power. He just can't let MMX6-8 go. :lol
ironichaos
Member
Capcom said the game is only 25 percent complete.
CamHostage
Member
Um...
One, it still seems a heck of a lot like Gun Survivor to me. RE, shooter-on-rails... Gun Survivor.
Two, it soulds like you LIKED Gun Survivor (well, at least the later ones, and I actually agree that the series started off awful but was written off unfairly because of that first game), so why do you have such a problem with people comparing it to Gun Survivor? I don't have confidence that this game will be the gotta-play story+gameplay ultimate RE experience that Capcom is selling it to be (I have a feeling that all of the story details they're promising will only serve to confuse and hint) but I still think it'll be fun and probably worth a play.
One, it still seems a heck of a lot like Gun Survivor to me. RE, shooter-on-rails... Gun Survivor.
Two, it soulds like you LIKED Gun Survivor (well, at least the later ones, and I actually agree that the series started off awful but was written off unfairly because of that first game), so why do you have such a problem with people comparing it to Gun Survivor? I don't have confidence that this game will be the gotta-play story+gameplay ultimate RE experience that Capcom is selling it to be (I have a feeling that all of the story details they're promising will only serve to confuse and hint) but I still think it'll be fun and probably worth a play.
dirtmonkey37
flinging feces ---->
Okay:
NFL Blitz and NFL 2K1 are completely different games.
I'm not trying to be a smart @$$, but the games are similar --very similar, in fact. Not that I've played Umbrella Chronicals, but from what I know of both games, what I've seen of both games (the Survivor games vs. UC), and what little I've played of the survivor series, these games are similar.
They're similar enough to be compared. Just like the aforementioned titles are both football games that share many mechanics with one another, this is the same deal.
Just my opinion. Don't kill me.
NFL Blitz and NFL 2K1 are completely different games.
I'm not trying to be a smart @$$, but the games are similar --very similar, in fact. Not that I've played Umbrella Chronicals, but from what I know of both games, what I've seen of both games (the Survivor games vs. UC), and what little I've played of the survivor series, these games are similar.
They're similar enough to be compared. Just like the aforementioned titles are both football games that share many mechanics with one another, this is the same deal.
Just my opinion. Don't kill me.
ThErApIsT said:This on-rails idea me no likey.
I enjoyed dead aim actually, because it was more than just a light gun game...
UC seems like a step back in that respect.
Im still going to play it because im a resident evil whore though
Everybody who thinks UC will suck because its on rails should rent rayman and play the on-rails shooter mini games. You can even cheat and d/l the rayman save file from gamefaqs that has all the shooter games unlocked.
Its a bit on the easy side, but its really fun and the controls are spot on.
underfooter
Banned
Adding co-op is essential. It is the difference between a 7.5 REUC and a 9.0 REUC. If they have co-op, I'll get this on day one. This game needs co-op.
consoul
Member
Residence of the Evil?Defensor said:
Nice post CVX.
In fairness, headshots were pretty important in Dead Aim, but I take your point that precision aiming wasn't a priority in the GS series.
Was Namco's arcade version of GS2 on-rails, or was movement user-driven just like the home version?
consoul
Member
They do actually. See the area at the far end of the dining room in the Gamers' Day video. Numerous bullet holes appear on the pillar in the background...though most subsequently vanish. It looks like the game engine is only rendering the last few bullet hole textures at any given moment.Kintaro said:
underfooter
Banned
Zenith said:
That can't be true. 25% finished and set for summer release?