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[MWS Natural]

Oh, definitely. It has an entire section dedicated to it:

In erecting this high standard, the Court knew full well that the standard could not be met absent an admission that a prosecutor or judge acted because of racial bias. The majority opinion openly acknowledged that long-standing rules generally bar litigants from obtaining discovery from the prosecution regarding charging patterns and motives, and that similar rules forbid introduction of evidence of evidence of jury deliberations even when a juror has chosen to make deliberations public. The very evidence that the Court demanded in McCleskey - evidence of deliberate bias in his individual case - would almost always be unavailable and/or inadmissible due to procedural rules that shield jurors and prosecutors from scrutiny. This dilemma was of little concern to the Court. It closed the courthouse doors to claims of racial bias in sentencing.

There is good reason to believe that, despite appearances, the McClesky decision was not really about the death penalty at all; rather, the Court's opinion was driven by a desire to immunize the entire criminal justice system from claims of racial bias. The best evidence in support of this vew can be found at the end of the majority opinion where the Court states that discretion plays a necessary role in the implementation of the criminal justice system, and that discrimination is an inevitable byproduct of discretion. Racial discrimination, the Court seemed to suggest, was something that simply must be tolerated in the criminal justice system, provided no one admits to racial bias.​

It was patently absurd. There was also the case mentioned in the OP where they could not use statistics, Armstrong v United States, in which the Supreme Court ruled that despite 1991 out of 2000 crack cases being sent to federal court in a three year period were black - and none were white - refused to allow Armstrong's lawyers access to data that would allow them to demonstrate racial bias in the way cases were sent either to federal or state court. The Court said because he hadn't shown any white defendants who should have been sent to federal court, but were instead sent to state court, Armstrong's lawyers had no argument for discovery for the records of the prosecutor's office. In other words, as the blogger in the OP said, "the Court demands that the defendants prove the very thing they are requesting data to help them prove."

And this is the quote from the majority decision you were probably thinking of:

Taken to its logical conclusion, throws into serious question the principles that underlie our criminal justice system [...] If we accepted McCleskey's claim that racial bias has impermissibly tainted the capital sentencing decision, we could soon be faced with similar claims as to other types of penalty.​

It was pretty surprising reading how the Court over the last fifty years had so thoroughly gutted the Fourth Amendment by interpretations that remove most of its practical power to protect citizens from search and seizure, and even moreso how the Court has gone about immunizing the entire criminal justice system from claims of racial bias.

Spoiler

Just buy it already, ev. Both!

Fuck this is depressing, why I don't even want to read books like this. I try to avoid the "Rosewood" feeling as much as possible.

 

[water_wendi]

The entire system is seemingly beyond repair.

 

[faceless007]

Demand proof of racism.

Make it impossible to present proof of racism.

Yeah, no agenda there.

 

[Cyan]

Don't worry, dudes. The American criminal justice system totally has a black friend.

 

[empty vessel]

Spoiler

Just buy it already, ev. Both!

I will! (Hadn't heard of the second book before, so thanks for the reference.)

Don't worry, dudes. The American criminal justice system totally has a black friend.

How would it know since it doesn't even see race!

 

[samus i am]

I'm not surprised in the slightest, but it is even worse than I thought. Thanks for posting this, I will subscribe and read this thread later.

 

[Eidan]

Glad this got bumped. Important subject that deserves more attention.

 

[MWS Natural]

Glad this got bumped. Important subject that deserves more attention.

I love how threads like these are ignored while negative threads about black people never go below 10 pages.

 

[Mumei]

Its really depressing because the only solution* really seems to be white america realizing that the system is discriminating and deciding to fix it

It seems incapable of even admitting that this stuff is racist and feel that everything is post racial if they don't think of Black people as automatically inferior, that and the fact there still is overt racism which is disguised as stereotypes (angry black man, illegal job stealing latinos).

*Until we're a minority-majority country.

Never knew about this case. Again its just really depressing.

I really think thinking like this is really what racism hides behind in America. I'm not saying black people suck so I'm not racist. You actually have to state "I hate black/latino/asian people" to be racist which is BS.

You feel so helpless in situation like this. I can only hope to educate those around me.

I would not want to discourage anyone from reading it because I am making it sound depressing. While the book is very frank in its assessment of how we got here, and I only scratched the surface of the myriad ways in which the existing and ostensibly nonracial systems of rewards incentivize actors to act in racially biased ways, and the ways in which the Supreme Court has over the years acted to maximize rather than minimize the extent to which that occurs and to immunize the entire criminal justice system from claims of racial bias because of those things, that is not the entirety of the book.

The last two chapters in particular talk about the reasons why the civil rights organizations which grew out of the civil rights movement in the first half of the twentieth-century have failed to adapt to and more effectively rebut this latest incarnation of racial caste in the United States. She also explains why organizations which over the decades became "top-heavy with lawyers" and why this model is not useful for a social problem which has protected from legal challenge by decades of Supreme Court decisions. However, she does identify practical policy aims that need to be lobbied for, and I found myself more optimistic that at least someone was identifying the separate strands of the Gordian Knot, even though knowing where we are now did depress me immensely.

I love how threads like these are ignored while negative threads about black people never go below 10 pages.

I won't lie; given the apparent interest in subjects like black people and criminality, racism, and injustice on this forum, I had expected slightly more interest in this topic when I made it.

C'est la vie, however.

 

[Yoritomo]

I'd go so far as to say that knowledge of the institutionalized nature of racism in the criminal justice system should be required knowledge. Lacking that knowledge can lead to implicit racism. This should be discussed constantly until something changes.

 

[Dead Man]

Well that makes for some seriously depressing reading.

The US really needs to get over its war on drugs, and reform the public defense available in the courts.

 

[FyreWulff]

Well that makes for some seriously depressing reading.

The US really needs to get over its war on drugs, and reform the public defense available in the courts.

Unfortunately every time we even barely touch the system in hopes of starting to fix it, people just start screaming "OMG GOING SOFT ON CRIME" and the politicians reverse the course.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

My low opinion of our system has fallen lower.

Thanks Mumei.

 

[Gattsu25]

I've added both books to my Amazon wishlist and will be buying them over the weekend.

 

[Partial Gamification]

The entire system is seemingly beyond repair.

I think that is a defeatist perspective. Say the the System is beyond repair, what then? Is one to expect a more equitable and fairer justice to just materialize out of a societal vacuum?

The System can be repaired but there is no perfect solution nor quick-fix. On the individual level, I can't see parents being prevented from spreading hate to their children. On the institutional level, the greatest challenge is to end for-profit imprisonment (considering this as the primary flaw in the Criminal Justice System), and this is a huge mountain to climb. The disenfranchisement of civic-participation can slowly be overcome with lasting empowerment efforts; education, community networking, and neighborhood outreaches.

White privilege can only survive through a self-imposed legitimacy. This notion that it is; completely artificial, unjust, and corrupt threatens the world-view of the privileged that use this ideal as a pillar to prop-up biased measures of success/power. This too can change once that majority of this Country understands that people are people, no matter where it is in the World; and, places are what we make of them. The System can change but it is a slow process, relative to a single lifetime. When the "prison-State" is forced out of the periphery of Society and thrust into the limelight, anyone with a drop of empathy and basic cognitive functions will recognize how wrong such practices are.

Discussions like the ones in this thread are part of the slow process of sharing ideas and trying to spark a workable solution in the minds of individuals out there. Hope is not lost, look back at history and see the incremental changes that have been made. Get involved and experience the challenges first-hand.

 

[Dead Man]

Unfortunately every time we even barely touch the system in hopes of starting to fix it, people just start screaming "OMG GOING SOFT ON CRIME" and the politicians reverse the course.

You know, I don't think I've ever seen a voter whine about a politician being soft on crime, all I seem to see are politicians accusing each other. I hate the emphasis on the need to be seen to be doing something rather than the need to get results and have those results measured, that is politics.

 

[Yoritomo]

Admittedly when reading Michelle Alexander's book I kept thinking, "She's being unfairly harsh." Then I looked up her citations and started following the statistics. She was using the softest gloves possible.

 

[Mumei]

I think that is a defeatist perspective. Say the the System is beyond repair, what then? Is one to expect a more equitable and fairer justice to just materialize out of a societal vacuum?

The System can be repaired but there is no perfect solution nor quick-fix. On the individual level, I can't see parents being prevented from spreading hate to their children. On the institutional level, the greatest challenge is to end for-profit imprisonment (considering this as the primary flaw in the Criminal Justice System), and this is a huge mountain to climb. The disenfranchisement of civic-participation can slowly be overcome with lasting empowerment efforts; education, community networking, and neighborhood outreaches.

White privilege can only survive through a self-imposed legitimacy. This notion that it is; completely artificial, unjust, and corrupt threatens the world-view of the privileged that use this ideal as a pillar to prop-up biased measures of success/power. This too can change once that majority of this Country understands that people are people, no matter where it is in the World; and, places are what we make of them. The System can change but it is a slow process, relative to a single lifetime. When the "prison-State" is forced out of the periphery of Society and thrust into the limelight, anyone with a drop of empathy and basic cognitive functions will recognize how wrong such practices are.

Discussions like the ones in this thread are part of the slow process of sharing ideas and trying to spark a workable solution in the minds of individuals out there. Hope is not lost, look back at history and see the incremental changes that have been made. Get involved and experience the challenges first-hand.

This is an amazing post.

 

[arglebargle]

I won't lie; given the apparent interest in subjects like black people and criminality, racism, and injustice on this forum, I had expected slightly more interest in this topic when I made it.

C'est la vie, however.

just wanted to chime in on this. i dont know much about this topic, which is why i havent posted more. to be honest i only saw this was bumped because i was subscribed from posting about jury nullification a while back. i do however feel like i am getting an education here though, so even if the total number of posts is fairly low, it may be reaching more people than you realize.

anyway, even if its just you and EV (and a few others, dont want to minimize their contributions) talking to each other, ill keep reading.

 

[empty vessel]

Oh, Mumei. Since you've put a couple books on my queue, I'll return the favor. C. Vann Woodward's Origins of the New South, 1877-1913 and The Strange Career of Jim Crow. The former is quite dry, especially in the beginning. It's been a while since I've read it, but I distinctly remember falling asleep a lot trying to get through the beginning, but the struggle (for me) was well worth it in the end. Woodward is the preeminent American historian of the American South.

 

[Mumei]

arglebargle, I appreciate the post.

Oh, Mumei. Since you've put a couple books on my queue, I'll return the favor. C. Vann Woodward's Origins of the New South, 1877-1913 and The Strange Career of Jim Crow. The former is quite dry, especially in the beginning. It's been a while since I've read it, but I distinctly remember falling asleep a lot trying to get through the beginning, but the struggle (for me) was well worth it in the end. Woodward is the preeminent American historian of the American South.

Thanks for the recommendations. Would you suggest reading one first?

 

[empty vessel]

Thanks for the recommendations. Would you suggest reading one first?

That depends on how much you like history for history's sake. Origins of the New South will give you a very good and broad understanding of the South more generally. The Strange Career of Jim Crow is a much narrower focus and an easier read. Both are solid, though.

 

[Bloodbeard]

As criminal justice is one of my college majors, there are numerous matters I would like to address in need of fixing with the validity of our court systems, but I will keep such personal beliefs to myself.

You looking for a pat on the back for going to college or something?

 

[nib95]

No it is not. This is very much factual, I'm not just talking out of my ass

This fantastic thread by Mumei talks about it
the American justice system disproportionately stops and gives harsher punishments for the same crimes to black people more than other races.

Damn, tempted to necro bump that awesome thread. Seems even more relevant today.

 

[nib95]

Mumei, maybe add in those other findings from that recent graph regarding conviction rates between races?

 

[ScottSullivan]

I never perceived it as the criminal justice system itself being the problem. Just that crime has a poverty bias, and unfortunately, with the priorities we've set in this country,and our history, poverty has a minority bias.

 

[StuKen]

I never perceived it as the criminal justice system itself being the problem. Just that crime has a poverty bias, and unfortunately, with the priorities we've set in this country,and our history, poverty has a minority bias.

If that was the case shouldn't the poverty bias show a proportional racial break down in line with the ratio whites to blacks in the pool of those classified as in poverty?

Protip: There are more poor whites than blacks.

 

[Yoritomo]

I never perceived it as the criminal justice system itself being the problem. Just that crime has a poverty bias, and unfortunately, with the priorities we've set in this country,and our history, poverty has a minority bias.

If the rates of poverty were correlated then you'd be right but it's also unquestionably about race. It's a self fulfilling cycle of disenfranchisement against the most vulnerable people in our society.

I'm a frugal person. I have a 13 year old car with 200k miles, yet have a significant amount in retirement and savings. Our budget is regimented so we can plan for our future and the future of our children. If I wanted to test drive a new porsche, a car which I can afford but choose not to, how many of the salesman would rush me when I pull up in my beater with a value of $4000? Well at least before they've run my credit score and see my income/debt ratio.

Imagine that apprehension from others in every aspect of your life. Apprehension so strong it's turned to fear, people not only doubt your income but your ability to be in society. That prejudice is expanded out to the justice system itself. How you walk, look, talk, act, laugh, enjoy entertainment is over analyzed. I could be ashamed of my car just because of how others might view me. Imagine fighting that in yourself. Now imagine someone judging your children with the same prejudiced eye.