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[akira28]

yahoo news reprinting an Associated Press crib-noting of a week old article from the Wall Street Journal blaming the protesters and calling it news. Yep, seems legit.

I doubt the truthfulness of this claim. I am sure there are plenty of situations I could come up with where you'd put your faith in the police.

please. proceed.

 

[commedieu]

I doubt the truthfulness of this claim. I am sure there are plenty of situations I could come up with where you'd put your faith in the police.

Thats a fascinating baseless opinion you've got there, and it really is at the core of the issue I was discussing. Please formulate your list and PM me. You should be warned though, that I've been the victim of frequent police abuse and harassment, that includes *gasp* calling the police to only become the target of abuse. But I'm sure it wont hold up to the scrutiny of privilege. Or, what... if a dinosaur was attacking my mother.. .. or something? Looking forward to it.

 

[wildfire]

The threat of punishment when you fuck up doing your job shouldn't deter you from doing your job.

It happens though. Many will break where others would bend. If they can't perform their duties replace them with those who can or retrain them since the cost of doing the latter is potentially lower.

 

[Foffy]

Shootings are up in Baltimore, sadly.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/may/08/baltimore-shootings-after-lull-freddie-gray-protests

"Nine shootings were reported in a 24-hour period in Baltimore on Thursday, including at least two that were fatal.

The city has seen roughly three to four shootings a day over the past 10 days. In contrast, throughout the protests in West Baltimore following the death of 25-year-old Freddie Gray and the riots on 27 April, there were no casualties. From 28 April to 3 May, 18 shootings were reported in the city."

Wouldn't be happening if they treated people with respect in the first place.

If only that happened. Now we just have an environment totally disempowered even with the ascribed authority to keep it more peaceful and civilized backing out of said environment. Correct me if I'm wrong, but besides the fact that people there literally feel their lives may not matter due to the problems of said ascribed authority, they are disempowered with many resources one would consider gateways to a decent life like education and a non-poverty socioeconomic domain. Those played roles in crime, but also in how the authority would perceive the people there: as "less thans".

Who is really, honestly shocked to find out it's become more chaotic in that environment as this chain of disempowerment has expanded?

 

[Quixzlizx]

of all the problems we have with police, unions are at the bottom of the list.

The union mentality is why police officers won't rat out the criminals among them. I would say that it is probably a stronger motivator for the average officer than racism.

 

[Manmademan]

The union mentality is why police officers won't rat out the criminals among them. I would say that it is probably a stronger motivator for the average officer than racism.

I'd disagree. the job itself is very, very attractive to people with an authority complex. By the nature of the job itself you'll attract bullies and egomaniacs. Racists tend to fall into those categories by default, because they're shitty people.

Disclaimer: I work in the PA department of corrections, the job is similar, and there's a very high crossover between those who work in the military and local police applying here.

This isn't even speculation- no one over the level of "sergeant" belongs to the union. You think the "culture of silence" and bad behavior stops when they're out of the union? Think again.

 

[esms]

You hear what I'm saying, so thats a start. I didn't offer a bullet proof solution, but a suggestion to discuss.
A private force or something like the black panthers.

Any solution is better than waiting on police to fix the problem, or the american public to value black lives. Thats all I posted it for. The problem with the PD is really the entire justice system, if we are talking realistically, no thats not a better solution as we'd have to rely on fighting with a powerful union that wouldn't budge. Its a non solution that kicks the can down another 100 or so years. But, if it created a better force, with neighborhoods that didn't have to fear their PD, clearly I'd be up for it. But i find its more valuable to talk about what we can do about this, its not just a single issue here. There is a lot of broken that goes all the way up. I feel like I didn't make a HERP DERP PRIVATIZE comment. Nor would I.

I have 0 faith in police. And I'm aware that fixing the police means fixing the entire justice system. So, solutions are welcome. I mean, what else is there to do?

I was offering a hypothetical, not a concrete solution. Also, union busting isn't unheard of, though it would be particularly hard to do for police.

of all the problems we have with police, unions are at the bottom of the list.

They reinforce and, in some cases, facilitate the poor performance and corrupt practices of cops.

I'll give you an example.

A cop in my city punched a woman in the face during a Puerto Rican day parade. He alleged she threw beer at him. A video surfaced that showed that she did not. Immediately, the officer was fired by the commissioner and indicted. He got a trial and was acquitted. Through arbitration with the union, he got his job back. As far as I know, that officer is still on the force.

That is fucking crazy.

So, you're right, unions aren't the biggest problem, but I would say its a pretty damn big one.

 

[commedieu]

I was offering a hypothetical, not a concrete solution. Also, union busting isn't unheard of, though it would be particularly hard to do for police.



They reinforce and, in some cases, facilitate the poor performance and corrupt practices of cops.

I'll give you an example.

A cop in my city punched a woman in the face during a Puerto Rican day parade. He alleged she threw beer at him. A video surfaced that she did not. Immediately, the officer was fired by the commissioner and indicted. He got a trial and was acquitted. Through arbitration with the union, he got his job back. As far as I know, that officer is still on the force.

That is fucking crazy.

So, you're right, unions aren't the biggest problem, but I would say its a pretty damn big one.

Re: Union Busting;
I'd say damn near impossible. PD unions aren't going anywhere, thats why im struggling to find alternatives. America isn't going to fix its PD, because its not going to fix its Justice Department. Thats a dire picture man :\

 

[Quixzlizx]

I'd disagree. the job itself is very, very attractive to people with an authority complex. By the nature of the job itself you'll attract bullies and egomaniacs. Racists tend to fall into those categories by default, because they're shitty people.

Disclaimer: I work in the PA department of corrections, the job is similar, and there's a very high crossover between those who work in the military and local police applying here.

This isn't even speculation- no one over the level of "sergeant" belongs to the union. You think the "culture of silence" and bad behavior stops when they're out of the union? Think again.

No, I don't think they are suddenly deprogrammed as soon as they are promoted up.

 

[Manmademan]

I was offering a hypothetical, not a concrete solution. Also, union busting isn't unheard of, though it would be particularly hard to do for police.



They reinforce and, in some cases, facilitate the poor performance and corrupt practices of cops.

I'll give you an example.

A cop in my city punched a woman in the face during a Puerto Rican day parade. He alleged she threw beer at him. A video surfaced that showed that she did not. Immediately, the officer was fired by the commissioner and indicted. He got a trial and was acquitted. Through arbitration with the union, he got his job back. As far as I know, that officer is still on the force.

That is fucking crazy.

So, you're right, unions aren't the biggest problem, but I would say its a pretty damn big one.

I'm in the philly area, I know the incident, and I followed that one through the news. edit: and again: the union wasn't who aquitted him, was it?

But again- the union is not the cause of the problem here. Here's an article that illustrates a lot of what is:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/05/the_myth_of_the_hero_cop_police_unions_have_spread_a_dangerous_message_about.html

Slate has issues, but they're on point here. There is a culture of deference towards cops in courtrooms, the legislature, and the public that gives them the benefit of the doubt when they fuck up.

Unions didn't pass laws that protect cops (like the 72 hours to get your story straight before you can be questioned business) your legislature did. Unions don't sit on juries, your citizens do.

All the union does is fight for due process when things happen under the terms of their contract, and the contract takes a backseat to the law.

edit: and all of this assumes that "private cops" that aren't union don't exist. They do. HOA's employ them quite a bit to keep "undesirables" out. They don't behave any better than public officers do, and there's less accountability.

No, I don't think they are suddenly deprogrammed as soon as they are promoted up.

"deprogrammed?" you can hit lieutenant in two years. try another one.

 

[Quixzlizx]

I'm in the philly area, I know the incident, and I followed that one through the news.

But again- the union is not the cause of the problem here. Here's an article that illustrates a lot of what is:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/05/the_myth_of_the_hero_cop_police_unions_have_spread_a_dangerous_message_about.html

Slate has issues, but they're on point here. There is a culture of deference towards cops in courtrooms, the legislature, and the public that gives them the benefit of the doubt when they fuck up.

Unions didn't pass laws that protect cops (like the 72 hours to get your story straight before you can be questioned business) your legislature did. Unions don't sit on juries, your citizens do.

All the union does is fight for due process when things happen under the terms of their contract, and the contract takes a backseat to the law.



"deprogrammed?" you can hit lieutenant in two years. try another one.

You don't think that police unions lobbied for those laws? OK.

 

[esms]

Re: Union Busting;
I'd say damn near impossible. PD unions aren't going anywhere, thats why im struggling to find alternatives. America isn't going to fix its PD, because its not going to fix its Justice Department. Thats a dire picture man :

I agree on union busting. Merely floating ideas.

I know the DoJ needs reforms, but what specifically are you looking for?

 

[Gallbaro]

I think I hear what you're saying.

But, following your line of thinking, wouldn't police officers being government employees and not granted the ability to unionize be a better solution than privatizing?

Only solution, only way to break the blue wall.

 

[Manmademan]

You don't think that police unions lobbied for those laws? OK.

lobbied who? the legislature. who votes in the legislature? citizens do- in theory at least. And as far as I'm aware there are a grand total of ZERO significant voices speaking out against police, or police budgets- they'd get crucified, especially after 9/11.

Money makes things easier to get things done, but trying to put every single thing that's wrong at the foot of police unions is laughable. Union membership across the board has tanked to almost nonexistent levels in this country over the past several decades, with police being one of the only few completely immune to union busting. Why do you think that is?

 

[esms]

I'm in the philly area, I know the incident, and I followed that one through the news. edit: and again: the union wasn't who aquitted him, was it?

But again- the union is not the cause of the problem here. Here's an article that illustrates a lot of what is:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/05/the_myth_of_the_hero_cop_police_unions_have_spread_a_dangerous_message_about.html

Slate has issues, but they're on point here. There is a culture of deference towards cops in courtrooms, the legislature, and the public that gives them the benefit of the doubt when they fuck up.

Unions didn't pass laws that protect cops (like the 72 hours to get your story straight before you can be questioned business) your legislature did. Unions don't sit on juries, your citizens do.

All the union does is fight for due process when things happen under the terms of their contract, and the contract takes a backseat to the law.

edit: and all of this assumes that "private cops" that aren't union don't exist. They do. HOA's employ them quite a bit to keep "undesirables" out. They don't behave any better than public officers do, and there's less accountability.

How did I not recognize your username. My bad man.

In my post above, I was just pointing out the unions role in the debacle. I would argue, had he not had union backing, he wouldn't be a cop today, which would be fantastic.

I'm not dismissing the need for justice reform or to get our legislature to work for more accountability instead of less of it. I'm just saying that I find unions the weakest link in the corrupt chain.

And I'm not arguing for a private police force.

 

[Manmademan]

How did I not recognize your username. My bad man.

In my post above, I was just pointing out the unions role in the debacle. I would argue, had he not had union backing, he wouldn't be a cop today, which would be fantastic.

I'm not dismissing the need for justice reform or to get our legislature to work for more accountability instead of less of it. I'm just saying that I find unions the weakest link in the corrupt chain.

And I'm not arguing for a private police force.

understandable. I don't want to give the impression here that unions are completely innocent here- it's their job to protect the jobs of their members, even when said members are complete pieces of shit. I have to deal with unions every day, it's not fun. But it's clear that there are definite limits to what they can do- and they don't stop us from firing and prosecuting officers who clearly cross the line.

That particular cop ended up getting his job back because the jury dropped the ball- and that's not the first time that happened, you can look at Zimmerman, or you can look at the Rodney King verdict back in the 90s. Juries give cops a WIDE berth on a regular basis, for much the same reason that criticizing the military is damn near impossible in a public forum. They're all heroes! how dare you! Try it and you get dogpiled on.

If he's found innocent, then they have all the room in the world to get him his job back. Just the way it is.

As for the private police force- I know you weren't arguing for one (though SOMEONE in this thread was) but their existence tends to do a lot to disprove the "unions are the problem" argument- private cops who have no unions are just as bad if not worse-

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/07/19/nyregion/private-police-force-is-accused-of-abusing-power.html

The union isn't the cause of abusive and shitty behavior by cops. It protects their jobs when they screw up, but the union doesn't attract these people to these jobs, and the union doesn't make them abuse citizens. So what's the excuse here?

 

[Quixzlizx]

lobbied who? the legislature. who votes in the legislature? citizens do- in theory at least. And as far as I'm aware there are a grand total of ZERO significant voices speaking out against police, or police budgets- they'd get crucified, especially after 9/11.

Money makes things easier to get things done, but trying to put every single thing that's wrong at the foot of police unions is laughable. Union membership across the board has tanked to almost nonexistent levels in this country over the past several decades, with police being one of the only few completely immune to union busting. Why do you think that is?

So, what's your point? You can say the same thing about Wal-Mart/Comcast/Monsanto/etc.

And I never said that the problems with the justice system are entirely caused by police unions. I said that general union policy is to encourage members not to snitch on each other to management, and police unions are no different. And this helps allow the actual shitheads in the profession to act with impunity.

 

[Sölf]

Baltimore, eh? How fitting that I am currently watching The Wire.

As for the quoted thing, I have no idea what you can do. Would it really help to replace everyone on the police? Could that be seen as a fresh start? I somewhat doubt that.

 

[Manmademan]

So, what's your point? You can say the same thing about Wal-Mart/Comcast/Monsanto/etc.

And I never said that the problems with the justice system are entirely caused by police unions. I said that general union policy is to encourage members not to snitch on each other to management, and police unions are no different. And this helps allow the actual shitheads in the profession to act with impunity.

and I said the "culture of silence" is not a union thing. It exists in the military (where there are no unions! surprise! and guess where cops tend to recruit from? ) and it exists among non union personnel.

The "unions are to blame for stop snitching" is simply false, sorry.

 

[Quixzlizx]

and I said the "culture of silence" is not a union thing. It exists in the military (where there are no unions! surprise! and guess where cops tend to recruit from? ) and it exists among non union personnel.

The "unions are to blame for stop snitching" is simply false, sorry.

I don't know what to say to this other than that your logic is flawed.

 

[Manmademan]

I don't know what to say to this other than that your logic is flawed.

You think it's flawed, then prove it. So far you haven't done so.

What's your explanation for protectionism and the culture of silence in the military? There are no unions there, yet the same behavior is just as bad, if not worse.

It's the nature of the job, and the people who are attracted to that kind of employment. Get rid of unions tomorrow and you'll have the same issue.

 

[Delusibeta]

No, we need to go the route of complete reform and mandatory accountability written into the law.

So, nothing, then.

 

[Quixzlizx]

You think it's flawed, then prove it. So far you haven't done so.

What's your explanation for protectionism and the culture of silence in the military? There are no unions there, yet the same behavior is just as bad, if not worse.

It's the nature of the job, and the people who are attracted to that kind of employment. Get rid of unions tomorrow and you'll have the same issue.

If I say that chemical A causes cancer, and you respond with "chemical B causes cancer, so therefore chemical A can't possibly cause cancer," would that make any sense?

 

[Amir0x]

So, nothing, then.

Or something.

For commedieu, and now you.

 

[Manmademan]

So, nothing, then.

pretty much. Amirox is correct, but it will never happen. As long as police aren't accountable to anyone but themselves, nothing is going to change.

If I say that chemical A causes cancer, and you respond with "chemical B causes cancer, so therefore chemical A can't possibly cause cancer," would that make any sense?

Comparing the military and domestic police force as two completely unrelated things is so hilarious I'm not sure whether to take you seriously.

your domestic police force HEAVILY recruits from the military. where do you think these people go when they're done with service? Look at the rapid militarization of domestic police forces, and think about why this is happening.
The jobs are extremely similar, there's a preference for people who work in one field to work in the other ("bonus points" are given to veterans during the hiring phase), and the same attitudes are drilled into recruits. "you are at war. watch your partner's back, because no one else is going to watch yours."

but you still haven't answered the question. The "culture of silence" exists in the military, and it exists in non union personnel. I've seen it firsthand. Why is this the case when unions do not exist?

 

[Quixzlizx]

pretty much. Amirox is correct, but it will never happen. As long as police aren't accountable to anyone but themselves, nothing is going to change.



Comparing the military and domestic police force as two completely unrelated things is so hilarious I'm not sure whether to take you seriously.

your domestic police force HEAVILY recruits from the military. where do you think these people go when they're done with service? Look at the rapid militarization of domestic police forces, and think about why this is happening.
The jobs are extremely similar, there's a preference for people who work in one field to work in the other ("bonus points" are given to veterans during the hiring phase), and the same attitudes are drilled into recruits. "you are at war. watch your partner's back, because no one else is going to watch yours."

but you still haven't answered the question. The "culture of silence" exists in the military, and it exists in non union personnel. I've seen it firsthand. Why is this the case when unions do not exist?

If I say that chemical A causes cancer, and you respond with "chemical B causes cancer, so therefore chemical A can't possibly cause cancer," would that make any sense?

Edit: Just because one set outside of another set has an attribute doesn't mean that said attribute is mutually exclusive to the original set. I honestly don't know how to be any more reductionist about it.

 

[Manmademan]

If I say that chemical A causes cancer, and you respond with "chemical B causes cancer, so therefore chemical A can't possibly cause cancer," would that make any sense?

and again, two extremely similar jobs are not analogous to two nameless unrelated chemicals you pulled out of your ass.

 

[BlackBanditSho]

Thats a fascinating baseless opinion you've got there, and it really is at the core of the issue I was discussing. Please formulate your list and PM me. You should be warned though, that I've been the victim of frequent police abuse and harassment, that includes *gasp* calling the police to only become the target of abuse. But I'm sure it wont hold up to the scrutiny of privilege. Or, what... if a dinosaur was attacking my mother.. .. or something? Looking forward to it.

Careful. I was banned once for trying to take a debate to PM before it got unnecessarily dirty. Tread lightly. I also hear you.

 

[LeroyPantwether]

Careful. I was banned once for trying to take a debate to PM before it got unnecessarily dirty. Tread lightly. I also hear you.

Hmm , that is odd. I had no problem with the request for a PM. I was happy to oblige commedieu, and I greatly look forward to the discourse that follows.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

At this point, they should just hire private police. As they will be professional and accountable. I mean, as long as they don't just shoot black people on sight, it would be a step in the right direction. This force is a bunch of cowards.

Even the trouble caught up with the blackwater guys. Accountability is something not found in Americas PD.

Can thank police unions for that.

Oh and racism.

 

[Valhelm]

you haven't seen blamespace threads then.

What is so bad about it? I'm not just saying shit for the sake of it, but if police just shoot blacks on sight, how could private police or something like the black panthers, lead to more black people getting shot to death by police..?

A private police group would want to make as many arrests as possible to prove that they're doing their job. This, coupled with less trustworthy oversight and no desire to prevent crime in the long run, would lead to significantly more police violence and possibly more crime.

 

[TAJ]

So you generally like unions, but think they should all be treated as criminal enterprises?

Nothing to do with unions. Everything to do with "Well, then. I guess we just won't arrest anyone." being a Mafia-like protection scheme.

 

[PhoenixDark]

So you generally like unions, but think they should all be treated as criminal enterprises?

I'd have no problem busting most police unions in this country. Might as well throw teacher unions in there too. Fuck them both. Defending corruption that systematically fucks people from a young age.

And in general I support unions.

 

[Enron]

A private police group would want to make as many arrests as possible to prove that they're doing their job. This, coupled with less trustworthy oversight and no desire to prevent crime in the long run, would lead to significantly more police violence and possibly more crime.

Just look what happens when cities outsource parking enforcement to a 3rd party like Atlanta did a couple of years ago. Tickets skyrocketed, and so did invalid/false tickets.