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[El_Tiguere]

I like the sentiment, but Bernie lost in the primaries. By a lot. Where were the droves of people then?

You mean the independents behind Bernie that were disenfranchised in the process? or the ones that didn't learn from the pro-Hillary media who Bernie was? or the ones that were shut out of the process through corrupt party shenanigans like in Nevada? many many many reasons as to why Clinton was coronated over Bernie, which I would gladly re-litigate.

Again, the passion and the popular policies are with the Bernie progressives. The takeover will be slower compared to the nutty Tea Parties on the right, but we don't have massive Ayn Rand GOP think tanks and funds pushing for economic and social equality/justice.

 

[Tain]

Telling coal miners and factory workers that they're going to get their jobs back from Mexico, China or automation is pure bullshit. If that's the populism that the Dems are going for, its not something I can wholly support.

nah they're just gonna turn them all into startup javascript coders now

 

[megalowho]

Talk is cheap, when the choice boils down to people vs. Corps 90% of the DNC is spineless at best.

And this is where the Bernie or Bust coalition has brought us. This poisonous, knee jerk reaction to the very mention of a Democratic platform will ensure none of it gets even close to law. Keep fighting the good fight against the corporatist Dem boogieman, that's the way progress works.

 

[kirblar]

.

Where? I don't see it.

https://www.democrats.org/party-platform#universal-health

Securing Universal Health Care

It's literally right there! (and has been in the party platform in various forms for eons!)

 

[GoldenEye 007]

You mean the independents behind Bernie that were disenfranchised in the process? or the ones that didn't learn from the pro-Hillary media who Bernie was? or the ones that were shut out of the process through corrupt party shenanigans like in Nevada? many many many reasons as to why Clinton was coronated over Bernie, which I would gladly re-litigate.

Again, the passion and the popular policies are with the Bernie progressives. The takeover will be slower compared to the nutty Tea Parties on the right, but we don't have massive Ayn Rand GOP think tanks and funds pushing for economic and social equality/justice.

These are a bunch of lies.

 

[Wet Bloodfart]

And this is where the Bernie or Bust coalition has brought us. This poisonous, knee jerk reaction to the very mention of a Democratic platform will ensure none of it gets even close to law. Keep fighting the good fight against the corporatist Dem boogieman, that's the way progress works.

+1

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

There are no better jobs coming. Automation is rendering human labor obsolete. They should be campaigning on a universal basic income.

 

[Aaronrules380]

You mean the independents behind Bernie that were disenfranchised in the process? or the ones that didn't learn from the pro-Hillary media who Bernie was? or the ones that were shut out of the process through corrupt party shenanigans like in Nevada? many many many reasons as to why Clinton was coronated over Bernie, which I would gladly re-litigate.

Again, the passion and the popular policies are with the Bernie progressives. The takeover will be slower compared to the nutty Tea Parties on the right, but we don't have massive Ayn Rand GOP think tanks and funds pushing for economic and social equality/justice.

Bernie totally won in states like Illinois with open primaries. Oh wait no he lost those as well, and most of his major wins were the heavily undemocratic caucusses

 

[Dude Abides]

This is an ok first try (aside from the awkward slogan) but there needs to be a unifying theme.

Also tax credits for retraining limp shit. Nobody is going to get excited about the prospect of a future employer getting a tax credit to retrain them.

Also I would urge people to resist the temptation to engage in El_Tiguere's attempt to relitigate the primary for the 2,305,394th time.

 

[JustenP88]

Also I would urge people to resist the temptation to engage in El_Tiguere's attempt to relitigate the primary for the 2,305,394th time.

Yes, please.

 

[El_Tiguere]

And this is where the Bernie or Bust coalition has brought us. This poisonous, knee jerk reaction to the very mention of a Democratic platform will ensure none of it gets even close to law. Keep fighting the good fight against the corporatist Dem boogieman, that's the way progress works.

Fighting against our actively compromised oligarchy that we call a "democratic republic" is the complete opposite of a "poisonous, knee jerk reaction". Not only is it what can restore our country to what the Founding Fathers intended, BUT this crisis has been building up to the current fever pitch level for over 40 years.

Corporatist congresspeople are the main problem, when 2 out of 3 policies coming out of government for the past 40 years have gone to benefit big corporate cartels.

 

[Widdle Puppy]

Good idea but I have a feeling dems will punch too soft

They need to fucking punch

Populist Medicaid for all message, strip the rich, grass roots movement.

 

[kirblar]

These are a bunch of lies.

I wouldn't hold much hope out in getting truth out of a poster on a video game forum who has only ever posted in Democrat-related threads in OT.

 

[robosllim]

We're also not going to be able to make everyone equal either. And a livable wage, while it's something we should strive for, is far harder than it sounds. For one thing a livable wage can vary dramatically based on where you want to live

Yeah, I'm definitely not going to argue for economic equality at this point, and I'm not sure that's something even worth striving for. But a truly well thought out living wage is something people need to start thinking about. I've always thought one of the issues with the Fight for $15 was the disparity in cost of living from place to place, so that's something that needs to be considered. Maybe it a reasonable amount in a suburb, but in rural areas it might be infeasible and in urban areas, especially in certain places out west, it's not nearly enough.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

I think reality has become:

- Slow progress OR - Rapid regression.

It's a hard pill for some people to swallow, but that's how it is.

I mean, that is how our government was designed at it's core. Maybe not the rapid regression part, but for sure the slow progress part. All of our systems are built to prioritize slow and steady over massive overnight change.

Not sure why more people don't understand that. That plus the country as a whole is quite conservative and think about themselves over the larger population. That makes for a for a strong resistance to rapid progress. And even a backlash of something perceived as too revolutionary managed to get approved.

 

[Widdle Puppy]

So you're saying we should just abandon education? Say it's good enough, there's no benefit to investing in it?

Eh, yes we should unless if it's retraining old workers. I'm talking about during the campaign.

 

[PeskyToaster]

The Dem platform has UHC in it!

Even Bernie thinks UBI is too far out there to get passed by the American elctorate and he won't touch it as a topic unless he's out of the country!

a) the young people still didn't show up relative to other groups
b) Corbyn sitll lost.

Dems would kill for a loss like that.

 

[kirblar]

I mean, that is how our government was designed at it's core. Maybe not the rapid regression part, but for sure the slow progress part. All of our systems are built to prioritize slow and steady over massive overnight change.

Not sure why more people don't understand that. That plus the country as a whole is quite conservative and think about themselves over the larger population. That makes for a for a strong resistance to rapid progress. And even a backlash of something perceived as too revolutionary managed to get approved.

The change in modern demographics has left the Senate/House much more conservative than the country at large because of how (white) rural areas are massively over-represented in government.

Dems would kill for a loss like that.

The Dems DID have a loss like that. In 2016. Where Clinton lost by under 100K votes while we gained seats in the House and Senate while taking neither over.

You don't see anyone arguing to re-run Clinton (except disingenuous lefties erecting a strawman)

 

[Aaronrules380]

Yeah, I'm definitely not going to argue for economic equality at this point, and I'm not sure that's something even worth striving for. But a truly well thought out living wage is something people need to start thinking about. I've always thought one of the issues with the Fight for $15 was the disparity in cost of living from place to place, so that's something that needs to be considered. Maybe it a reasonable amount in a suburb, but in rural areas it might be infeasible and in urban areas, especially in certain places out west, it's not nearly enough.

It's also complicated in that businesses will just move if you raise the wage too much higher than what other areas can offer, even if you need to for a living wage. If San Francisco or somewhere like that jacked up the living wage to $20 an hour, many businesses would relocate and the problem wouldn't necessarily be solved

 

[Aaronrules380]

Dems would kill for a loss like that.

Except you know as things stand dems have a great chance of pulling off a huge win in the mid terms

 

[Steel]

Dems would kill for a loss like that.

That is literally the type of loss they had in 2016. They gained seats in both the house and senate and lost the presidency even though they won the popular vote(Which Labour did not win).

 

[O Canada Our Home and Native Land]

This will never happen

I like the sentiment, but Bernie lost in the primaries. By a lot. Where were the droves of people then?

So you're saying because a politician lost, the issues they campaigned for they don't have support from the voting public. What does that say about the issues Hillary focused on or the democrats that lost seats in the House and Senate? There are several reasons why a candidate loses and it isn't always the cause they support.

 

[Wet Bloodfart]

Fighting against our actively compromised oligarchy that we call a "democratic republic" is the complete opposite of a "poisonous, knee jerk reaction". Not only is it what can restore our country to what the Founding Fathers intended, BUT this crisis has been building up to the current fever pitch level for over 40 years.

Corporatist congresspeople are the main problem, when 2 out of 3 policies coming out of government for the past 40 years have gone to benefit big corporate cartels.

What is your suggestion then? The only way we progress towards a more progressive society is to continue to make minor steps – you can hate the "oligarchy" as much as you want, but we have a party that aligns with progress, albeit minor. On the other side of the aisle, you have a party that wants nothing but to implement class warfare policies that actively hurt the majority of the country. There's nothing masking their actions. They're actively evil.

The best thing we can do is work with the party that represents progress and elect more populist politicians to work with said party. Elimination of the modern conservative mindset to actually develop policy should be the end goal, not petty infighting.

 

[Aaronrules380]

So you're saying because a politician lost, the issues they campaigned for they don't have support from the voting public. What does that say about the issues Hillary focused on or the democrats that lost seats in the House and Senate? There are several reasons why a candidate loses and it isn't always the cause they support.

Clinton lost because she lacked charisma. Are you saying Bernie had less charisma than Clinton? Lol

 

[megalowho]

Fighting against our actively compromised oligarchy that we call a "democratic republic" is the complete opposite of a "poisonous, knee jerk reaction". Not only is it what can restore our country to what the Founding Fathers intended, BUT this crisis has been building up to the current fever pitch level for over 40 years.

Corporatist congresspeople are the main problem, when 2 out of 3 policies coming out of government for the past 40 years have gone to benefit big corporate cartels.

Making a drive by post like that 1 minute after the thread went up is the definition of a poisonous, knee jerk reaction. You think they took the time to read the platform? No, the platform doesn't matter. Blind opposition and buzz words are what matter over debating policy.

The sourness from the election is still palpable and the desire for a left wing tea party is real. Dems ain't winning shit in 2018 or 2020 at this rate, the GOP/Russia disenfranchisement campaign has already done its job.

 

[Haly]

Unless they follow water_wendi on twitter and go after Amazon, is trust busting really going to play to 21st century America?

Christ.

 

[robosllim]

It's also complicated in that businesses will just move if you raise the wage too much higher than what other areas can offer, even if you need to for a living wage. If San Francisco or somewhere like that jacked up the living wage to $20 an hour, many businesses would relocate and the problem wouldn't necessarily be solved

https://www.careeronestop.org/Toolkit/Careers/careers-largest-employment.aspx
The top three most populous jobs are retail jobs, cashiers, and food prep. The sorts of businesses that employ those people don't usually pack up and move just to pay lower wages or lower property taxes or whatever else might be location-based. They may have to increase their prices slightly, but it's been shown that an X% increase in wages results in much less than an X% increase in prices, so that's not all that big of an issue.

 

[Aaronrules380]

https://www.careeronestop.org/Toolkit/Careers/careers-largest-employment.aspx
The top three most populous jobs are retail jobs, cashiers, and food prep. The sorts of businesses that employ those people don't usually pack up and move just to pay lower wages or lower property taxes or whatever else might be location-based. They may have to increase their prices slightly, but it's been shown that an X% increase in wages results in much less than an X% increase in prices, so that's not all that big of an issue.

I feel like those are also jobs at increasing risk of disappearing due to automation among other things. Retail is already dieing out for example

 

[wandering]

You have all the creative industry in your pocket -- get a better tagline, Christ.

 

[aeolist]

Unless they follow water_wendi on twitter and go after Amazon, is trust busting really going to play to 21st century America?

Christ.

their examples are dumb as fuck too

The "Better Deal" unveiled by Schumer and House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) was described in several documents that can be found in an Axios story. The plan for "cracking down on corporate monopolies" lists five industries that Democrats say are in particular need of change, specifically airlines, cable and telecom, the beer industry, food, and eyeglasses.

the telecom one is especially laughable because breaking up ISPs will accomplish literally nothing because they'll all still be local monopolies. they need to be either forced to resell line access to competitors at heavily regulated wholesale rates or outright nationalized .

 

[Autumn Wind]

When Trump pushes "MAGA" I don't get an authentic vibe from him. Compare that to Sherrod Brown of Ohio who said this at the DNC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zhXtvpoBhI

 

[Laiza]

There are no better jobs coming. Automation is rendering human labor obsolete. They should be campaigning on a universal basic income.

This.

Trying to get workers a better deal and bring some power back into that side of the scale is all well and good... but it's an extremely temporary measure that becomes meaningless once automation raises the unemployment level just because it's cheaper to hire machines than people.

But I know how this works. People won't bother treating it as a legitimate issue until the problems are already happening in front of us instead of trying to act proactively to prevent the worst of the social ills that can occur. People will literally have to be evicted and starving on the streets before we take this shit seriously. It's fucking dumb.

 

[RMI]

There are no better jobs coming. Automation is rendering human labor obsolete. They should be campaigning on a universal basic income.

as much as I think UBI is a necessity for the future if we can't get single payer healthcare and free higher education in this country there is surely no way that we are going to get UBI. Start with lower hanging fruit.

At this point I only have two things on my wish list and I know we're not getting them:

1) vastly decreased military spending
2) strong commitment to combating climate change in a real way

 

[megalowho]

This.

Trying to get workers a better deal and bring some power back into that side of the scale is all well and good... but it's an extremely temporary measure that becomes meaningless once automation raises the unemployment level just because it's cheaper to hire machines than people.

But I know how this works. People won't bother treating it as a legitimate issue until the problems are already happening in front of us instead of trying to act proactively to prevent the worst of the social ills that can occur. People will literally have to be evicted and starving on the streets before we take this shit seriously. It's fucking dumb.

The current unemployment rate in the US is 4.3%. UBI is not happening in 2018, and hinging your support on a party wide platform on convincing the american public our taxes need to go up for public welfare is electoral suicide. Let's figure out raising taxes for health care first.

 

[kirblar]

The current unemployment rate in the US is 4.3%. UBI is not happening in 2018, and hinging your support on a party wide platform on convincing the american public our taxes need to go up for public welfare is electoral suicide. Let's figure out raising taxes for health care first.

The low unemployment rate disguises a consistent decline in the male labor force participation rate that's been going on since the '80s. (that's also massively worse in rural areas than it is in urban ones)

 

[ApharmdX]

Predominantly gay male Hillary supporters?

Sorry, I didn't poll every Hillary supporter last year during primary season to check their orientation as they crowded into threads with incessant "yas"s. Pretty sure it was just a phrase that crossed over into pop culture as a meme by 2016.

Finally people catching onto the fact that it's a fucking dogwhistle.

 

[megalowho]

The low unemployment rate disguises a consistent decline in the male labor force participation rate that's been going on since the '80s.

Great, the GOP argument for why Obama's economic stimulus policies were actually failing despite the uptick in our economy and decrease in unemployment over the last 4 years. The reason we needed the GOP in office again to truly fix the issue. You may have a point but you know that's what you're parroting, right?

 

[El_Tiguere]

What is your suggestion then? The only way we progress towards a more progressive society is to continue to make minor steps – you can hate the "oligarchy" as much as you want, but we have a party that aligns with progress, albeit minor.

In a time when half of the country only has about $400 in their accounts, and the price of everything is going up (and on the precipice of another financial crisis)... sorry but NO! the promise of minor progress (maybe) is a losing proposition. You can start with BOLD ideas, and BOLD promises, which will inspire people into action NOW (in 2018). Promise gradual incremental progress (even if in reality this is what will happen in congress), and you have tepid enthusiasm from Americans who are objectively tired of all the bullshit in DC (record low approval ratings across the board).

Elimination of the modern conservative mindset to actually develop policy should be the end goal, not petty infighting.

You can't wait to "eliminate" the conservative mindset. You fight it actively with your own version of a great America. Slow incremental practical steps that appease corporations and donors first and foremost is why Democrats have been losing ground since 2008.

 

[Laiza]

The low unemployment rate disguises a consistent decline in the male labor force participation rate that's been going on since the '80s. (that's also massively worse in rural areas than it is in urban ones)

Let's add a graph to that:

Lots of guys drop out of the labor force entirely to pursue other things, hence not counting in the unemployment numbers (which only counts people actively seeking work). But that doesn't indicate that the problem doesn't exist.

Great, the GOP argument for why Obama's economic stimulus policies were actually failing despite the uptick in our economy and decrease in unemployment over the last 4 years. The reason we needed the GOP in office again to truly fix the issue. You may have a point but you know that's what you're parroting, right?

This is a laughable position to take. So because the GOP acknowledged an issue, we shouldn't do the same? Even if our methods are completely different from theirs and are actually designed to address the problems that could occur at their roots?

Not sure what you expect from us here. Sweep the problem under the rug, hope nobody notices while we pursue lower-hanging fruit that just barely slows down the inevitable decay? Heh. Okay.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

The low unemployment rate disguises a consistent decline in the male labor force participation rate that's been going on since the '80s. (that's also massively worse in rural areas than it is in urban ones)

Is there any evidence this is actually due to automation and not just demographic shifts as Boomers retire/more youth enter tertiary education?

 

[kirblar]

Great, the GOP argument for why Obama's economic stimulus policies were actually failing despite the uptick in our economy and decrease in unemployment over the last 4 years. The reason we needed the GOP in office again to truly fix the issue. You may have a point but you know that's what you're parroting, right?

There is a legitimate issue there.Them using it for a bullshit talking point doesn't change that. I am not parroting "ITS THE EVIL IMMIGRANTS/MINORITIES/GLOBALISTS/ELITES" fault bullshit they're spewing out.

The country as a whole is doing great. But these rural areas are literally dying off as industries leave, kids leave, and you're left w/ a bunch of older people chained to houses they can't sell.

 

[Shauni]

I shouldn't be too surprised at all the vile about this, but I think it's a solid message. Easy to quickly say (obviously the Better Deal part is what will be emphasized other the sub-line), recalls FDR's New Deal, and is a simple to digest message. Now that just to commit to it and really go out to sell it.

 

[KingK]

Seems like a move in the right direction on the economic front. I really like the focus on concentrated corporate power/trust busting. Question is how sincere this is. I can't say I'm a fan of Schumer at all, but hopefully they try to follow through. Now add in some strong stances on campaign finance and voting rights, immigration reform, civil rights and police reform, and we'll have a stew going.

On a side note, really glad they removed the "better skills" part of the slogan. That was hilariously tone deaf and moronic. I agree with everything Aeolist has said on the matter in this thread.

 

[kirblar]

Is there any evidence this is actually due to automation and not just demographic shifts as Boomers retire/more youth enter tertiary education?

Yes. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/soci...the-declining-labor-force-participation-rate/

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2016/06/21/where-are-the-nonworking-prime-age-men/

We currently have massive amounts of variance in outcomes that are dividing along stark geographical and educational lines. Helping people get better educated and be better able to move out of these declining areas needs to be something that we're doing. Part of the problem we face, though, is that what these people need is not what they want. They want the past back instead of having to adapt to the future.

 

[Kelsdesu]

It will when populism runs up against the slow grinding gears of US government and reality

People basically want to be lied to go out and vote though.

Absolutely. I dont even think they need to actually do anything. Just lie. It has proven to work.

 

[dantevsninjas]

Millennials didn't come out in droves against Trump, because they had an empty corrupt shell of a person to vote for as the alternative.

No, Millenials didn't come out in droves against Trump because young people generally don't vote. By and large, the majority of young people who could vote can't be bothered.

 

[Principate]

The Dem platform has UHC in it!

Even Bernie thinks UBI is too far out there to get passed by the American elctorate and he won't touch it as a topic unless he's out of the country!

a) the young people still didn't show up relative to other groups
b) Corbyn sitll lost.

Still gained a massive vote shatr put the current government in an awful position and started from a worse position than democrats ever dreamed to be.

 

[megalowho]

There is a legitimate issue there.Them using it for a bullshit talking point doesn't change that. I am not parroting "ITS THE EVIL IMMIGRANTS/MINORITIES/GLOBALISTS/ELITES" fault bullshit they're spewing out.

The country as a whole is doing great. But these rural areas are literally dying off as industries leave, kids leave, and you're left w/ a bunch of older people chained to houses they can't sell.

So to tie it back to my original response, are these pockets of depressed communities enough of an impetus for a nationwide UBI, and the economic burden that would impose on the public? Enough of a reason to snark at the current platform for not advocating fantasy policies we can't afford? It's a theoretical argument, not a practical one in 2018.

This is a laughable position to take. So because the GOP acknowledged an issue, we shouldn't do the same? Even if our methods are completely different from theirs and are actually designed to address the problems that could occur at their roots?

Not sure what you expect from us here. Sweep the problem under the rug, hope nobody notices while we pursue lower-hanging fruit that just barely slows down the inevitable decay? Heh. Okay.

That you think UBI is an issue that candidates can get elected on and Congress will appropriate in 2018 is laughable. That lower-hanging fruit you dismiss is the fight for Universal Health Care, an intensely important issue that will affect millions of lives positively. And the last time we went to war for it, it cost the Dems all their political power and congressional majorities. Please come back from your theoretical fantasies and join us in the political reality we currently reside in.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

We currently have massive amounts of variance in outcomes that are dividing along stark geographical and educational lines. Helping people get better educated and be better able to move out of these declining areas needs to be something that we're doing. Part of the problem we face, though, is that what these people need is not what they want. They want the past back instead of having to adapt to the future.

Thanks for the links, these are very interesting. I do broadly agree with this.

 

[gutter_trash]

use simple words, simple slogans, simple terms, simple catch phrases

avoid nuance