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[Timedog]

I use a firewire digital analog converter into Dynaudio BM5a connected by XLR cables.

If you want audiophile you better not be using some shitty stock DA converters.

 

[KHarvey16]

Here's a nice article that details a lot of what's being discussed:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/the-truth-about-interconnects-and-cables

 

[pj]

That’s not true. There are always resistive, capacitive and inductive losses. And the sharp contours of the RCA pins will have electromagnetic fringe-losses. That’s just physics. That’s why you’ll notice on power lines, connectors are always molded smooth, smoother connectors reduce fringe losses. In this situation though, we are worried about degradation of the signal curve itself. Stranded copper conductors will be a worse conducting path for electrons than solid conductors at these current levels. I’m not quite sure what causes the harshness in audio, it might be a limiting effect on the high frequencies due to the conductor. But the harshness is there, specially pronounced with hi-fi amps and speakers. Guitar tones and voices will seem screetchy. The harshness was eliminated by my interconnects, that’s for sure. The situation was, w/o the power amp…the music was beautiful, warm, smooth. It’s a tube pre-amp and my speakers were completely broken-in (we’ll talk about break-in a bit later). And I am familiar with my music so I know what to look for.

If the cable was limiting the high frequencies, wouldn't it sound "warmer"?

After the addition of the power amp, through the cable I had lying around the house, the sound quality degraded. Well, that’s not supposed to happen! Power output went up obviously, 50watts vs. 250 watts, but the music was harsh, distant, the warmth was gone. So rather than buying over-priced “snake-oil” products, I just made my own conductors with good quality off-the-shelf parts. Of course I did tests with one channel hooked up via the old cable and the other channel hooked up via my cable. I didn’t have mono files which would have been the best source for comparison, but as you switch the channels…guess what, there is a clear difference between treble and how bass is handled.

I don't see how this discounts the placebo effect since you knew which was which. Also, increasing power doesn't necessarily mean it's going to sound better. I don't want your head to explode, but there's building sentiment in the audio community that all non-defective amplifiers sound the same. So unless you're using your speakers at levels that cause the amp to clip, there's zero point in upgrading your amplifier. The exception of course is tube amps which roll off the highs to sound "warm" on purpose. That may even explain why you perceived harshness when you changed out your amp.

I agree to an extent. I don’t think power cables will have much, if any, effect on audio quality. Interconnects can be thought of as internal wiring of an integrated amp, the less it interferes, the better. Speaker wires…I think small gauge regulars wires that you can buy in bulk at any store will be worse than well designed speaker cables.

What is a well designed speaker cable? Seems to me that it's some copper and some plugs

I think not just me, you’d be able to tell the differences between the cable I replaced, and the one I made. I don’t know much about monoprice cables though. However, like I said earlier, the differences only become pronounced with high quality gear. With regular single driver PC speakers, this will not be an issue. The speaker won’t have the fidelity to pronounce the missing components in the music.

I tried my monoprice speaker wire on my step dad's $7000 stereo and I couldn't hear any difference between my wires and his, which I'm sure he paid out the ass for.. My own stereo is $1500, soon to be $3k+ and I'm using the optical output on my MBP sending 96khz 24bit audio files (when available) to my receiver. It's not the best in the world, but if my $2 cables were causing harshness I think I'd be able to detect it.

As for break-in. My speakers had to be broken in for 150 to 200 hours at least. The mid-woofer is made of a very stiff material and out of the box, it doesn’t achieve the dynamics to output high quality sound. Most hi-fi speakers are this way. You notice the change as you keep playing them, this is not a placebo effect. Even the company guide lines tell you to break them in.

I was talking about cables. Speakers have moving parts so it's not impossible that they'd need break-in.

Are some people retarded for paying thousands of dollars on interconnects and power cables, and line conditioners and so forth? yes, i think they are. but there are some vital chains in your system that you need to make sure aren't limiting the rest of your components. its like setting up a quad-core pc with 64kbytes of cache or 128 MB ram. those become the limiting factors. interconnects are like that. a high quality intergrated amp wont have this problem, its a one box solution. but you need to keep in mind when chaning a high quality pre-amp and a high quality power-amp, that whatever interconnects you're using has to be have the least amount of effect.

Except any functioning wire has way more capacity than what's needed for audio applications, so the computer analogy would be more like a quad core pc with 2 gigs of cache. I don't know why you believe interconnects are very important while speaker wires are less so. They're carrying the same signal, except speaker wire is carrying it at much higher levels, so shouldn't you be more concerned with speaker wire?


I recommend checking out KHarvey16's link, or google the subject as there's been lots of debate on it.

 

[Timedog]

okay, i didn't read far enough to see that he'd already bought a system. But......

RCA connectors??? Why not go with a balanced solution if you're going to spend all that money?

 

[nitewulf]

“If the cable was limiting the high frequencies, wouldn't it sound "warmer"?”

It just sounds harsh. Not limited as in rolled off. It could be due to the skin effect, some high-freq components being limited. I dont know...

“Also, increasing power doesn't necessarily mean it's going to sound better. I don't want your head to explode, but there's building sentiment in the audio community that all non-defective amplifiers sound the same. So unless you're using your speakers at levels that cause the amp to clip, there's zero point in upgrading your amplifier. The exception of course is tube amps which roll off the highs to sound "warm" on purpose. That may even explain why you perceived harshness when you changed out your amp.”

My point was, while power was increased, the sound quality degraded audibly. It shouldn’t have happened with a supposed high quality amplifier.

If you believe all amps sound the same, then this discussion is over at this point. It has nothing to do with my head…

“What is a well designed speaker cable? Seems to me that it's some copper and some plugs”

Proper shielding, solid conductor, good insulation, solid solder points, good RCA plugs.

“I tried my monoprice speaker wire on my step dad's $7000 stereo and I couldn't hear any difference between my wires and his, which I'm sure he paid out the ass for.. "

Ok. But what exactly did you do? Whats the setup?

“My own stereo is $1500, soon to be $3k+ and I'm using the optical output on my MBP sending 96khz 24bit audio files (when available) to my receiver. It's not the best in the world, but if my $2 cables were causing harshness I think I'd be able to detect it.”

MBP = mother board port? Sound card port? The DAC in any PC sound card is pretty crap. There are internal RF interference, some up-convert to 48khz, then downconvert to 44.1khz and so forth. You need to bypass it via a USB/Firewire DAC and then check again. The audio signal coming out of that port is already degraded.

“I was talking about cables. Speakers have moving parts so it's not impossible that they'd need break-in.”

I’m a little iffy on cable break-in as well. The speaker I heard over a period of weeks on my own, so I can attest to that. But six months ago I’d have laughed anyone off who came to me with headphone/speaker break-in mumbo jumbo. Now, im not so sure. That’s why I’m keeping my mind open nowadays.

“I recommend checking out KHarvey16's link, or google the subject as there's been lots of debate on it.”

I did. The author doesn’t discount the use of well engineered interconnects. He doesn’t mention what his idea of the well designed ones are. He talks about good shielding and use of good conductors. He even mentions they should obviously sound better than crappy wires. If he is talking about stuff that costs in the range of $50 - $100 bucks…then he is in line with me.

The danger with taking any side is, you don’t know if he is completely truthful either. You have to be the judge, not let articles sway you one way or the other.

We went over the exact same stuff in the “Audiophile are crazy” thread a while back. If you actually believe all amps are the same, or all speakers are the same…then there is no point in farther discussion.

Timedog:

Not sure there are audible differences. balanced just means one more terminal for ground IIRC. My pre-amp doesn't have balanced outputs. Both XLR and RCA are analog connections.

 

[pj]

Ok. But what exactly did you do? Whats the setup?

I listened to some music with his cables, then I swapped them out and listened to the same music with my own. Thinking on it, my comparison is just as invalid as yours since I could have perceived no difference if that's what I was expecting.. It wasn't something I really planned out I just wanted a quick test to see if there were any apparent differences.

MBP = mother board port? Sound card port? The DAC in any PC sound card is pretty crap. There are internal RF interference, some up-convert to 48khz, then downconvert to 44.1khz and so forth. You need to bypass it via a USB/Firewire DAC and then check again. The audio signal coming out of that port is already degraded.

macbook pro.. The point of using optical is that it bypasses the internal DAC. In effect, my computer is producing the same exact output as any SACD player or other device that can output 96khz 24bit over a digital connection.

I did. The author doesn’t discount the use of well engineered interconnects. He doesn’t mention what his idea of the well designed ones are. He talks about good shielding and use of good conductors. He even mentions they should obviously sound better than crappy wires. If he is talking about stuff that costs in the range of $50 - $100 bucks…then he is in line with me.

The danger with taking any side is, you don’t know if he is completely truthful either. You have to be the judge, not let articles sway you one way or the other.

I assume you're talking about this quote:
"Interconnects might sound different, but only if they use odd construction techniques. Generally speaking, all properly (sensibly) designed and well made interconnects will sound the same - excluding noise pickup which is common with unshielded designs."

To me, sensible means this: http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...d=1021803&p_id=2864&seq=1&format=1#largeimage

What could possibly cost $50-100 in the construction of an rca cable?

The danger with taking your side is that if you're wrong, you've wasted a lot of money. If I'm wrong, I have a whole world of new products on which to blow my disposable income.

We went over the exact same stuff in the “Audiophile are crazy” thread a while back. If you actually believe all amps are the same, or all speakers are the same…then there is no point in farther discussion.

I read stereophile, the absolute sound and various home theater mags for years. I bought into a lot of the bullshit. My first suspicions that the audiophile industry was full of shit was seeing glowing, multi-page reviews for things like cable risers or many thousand dollar cd transports, or sprays for CDs that make them sound better. The final straw was when I saw a full page ad on the back of some magazine for an optical cable that had like 15 small optical cables instead of one solid one, to "increase resolution". I then started reading online about how power conditioners are bullshit, then power cables, then interconnects and speaker wire and most recently (last week actually) amplifiers.

That last one was hard to swallow because a big amp sitting under the TV would look cool as hell (you can't tell me that the looks of your amp didn't influence your decision to get it). I had fully intended on getting a nice 200wpc amp until I realized that it would only play 6dB louder than my current 50wpc setup, and at levels below maximum, they would be effectively the same since they both have ridiculously low THD. I still may get one just because I can, but I fully expect it to make no difference in the sound quality of my system.

psychoacoustics is a very real and powerful force. I don't doubt that if I believed these things sounded different, they actually would. Since this stuff is all so subjective, there's no real way to prove the case one way or the other. I base my opinions on a desire to not waste money, and the opinions of (supposed) engineers on various websites who present ostensibly sound arguments. While nothing close to proof, it's better than the flowery language of audiophiles who base their opinions solely on what they think they hear. The closest thing to actual proof is blind A/B tests which audiophiles seem strangely opposed to..

I'm not trying to shit on your parade. If your amp sounds better to you, that's great, but for the people reading this who are thinking about dropping a lot of money on a stereo, I want to present a counterpoint for them to at least consider.

 

[nitewulf]

i'm with you up to a point, but don't go whole-sale for it.

audiophile companies do over charge, but there are absolute differences between amplifiers. look for the thread i mentioned earlier and read what i and others wrote...i dont wanna re-iterate too much. there are reasons why emotiva/rotel amps are very powerful yet are fairly affordable as opposed to similarly powered plinius/musical fidelity/mcintosh gear. they are all very different devices. there are reasons why a 200wpc amp may cost 200 bucks, and yet another cost 5000 bucks.

if you think all amps are the same, then you might as well think speakers are the same...and then we start getting into delusional territory.

"If your amp sounds better to you, that's great, but for the people reading this who are thinking about dropping a lot of money on a stereo, I want to present a counterpoint for them to at least consider."

that's fine. everyone should buy what they can afford. we are living in hard times. this is entertainment and piece of mind stuff, not survivability.

 

[Raistlin]

if you think all amps are the same, then you might as well think speakers are the same...and then we start getting into delusional territory.

While I'm not going to say all amps are the same, that is a pretty ridiculous statement.

Unless some companies are doing things VERY wrong in the their amp designs (given similar specs), it should in no way equate to the difference between speaker designs, components, etc.

 

[pj]

i'm with you up to a point, but don't go whole-sale for it.

audiophile companies do over charge, but there are absolute differences between amplifiers. look for the thread i mentioned earlier and read what i and others wrote...i dont wanna re-iterate too much. there are reasons why emotiva/rotel amps are very powerful yet are fairly affordable as opposed to similarly powered plinius/musical fidelity/mcintosh gear. they are all very different devices. there are reasons why a 200wpc amp may cost 200 bucks, and yet another cost 5000 bucks.

if you think all amps are the same, then you might as well think speakers are the same...and then we start getting into delusional territory.

"If your amp sounds better to you, that's great, but for the people reading this who are thinking about dropping a lot of money on a stereo, I want to present a counterpoint for them to at least consider."

that's fine. everyone should buy what they can afford. we are living in hard times. this is entertainment and piece of mind stuff, not survivability.

I never said speakers don't sound different because frequency response graphs show quite clearly that they do. Regarding amps, you didn't really say anything other than "there are reasons." What are the reasons? A link or two would suffice.

Btw, "better quality components" is a reason they cost more, but doesnt necessarily improve sound quality.

 

[nitewulf]

I never said speakers don't sound different because frequency response graphs show quite clearly that they do. Regarding amps, you didn't really say anything other than "there are reasons." What are the reasons? A link or two would suffice.

Btw, "better quality components" is a reason they cost more, but doesnt necessarily improve sound quality.

nah, i cant get into it. i am an EE, but i still wont, even though the burden of proof is on me. too time consuming and ultimately i dont get paid for it. though frequncy response charts obviously do exist for amps, DACs and other devices. you dont think a better engineered transitor handles electrons differently than one with looser tolerances? its never that simple.

believe what you want, thats the most wonderful thing about being a free thinker.

 

[Raistlin]

How about citing some resources then?

 

[Miroku]

I never said speakers don't sound different because frequency response graphs show quite clearly that they do. Regarding amps, you didn't really say anything other than "there are reasons." What are the reasons? A link or two would suffice.

Btw, "better quality components" is a reason they cost more, but doesnt necessarily improve sound quality.

Are you just quizzing Nitewulf or are you genuinely curious?

Solid state amplification technology has changed little over the years but it is most definitely something where more money gets you better sound.

 

[nitewulf]

How about citing some resources then?

you can look up class A, B, A/B hybrid, C and D amplifier designs on google. none of em sound like one another. why should they?

do a simple test. use the headphone port of some of your household devices using the same pair of headphones and the same mp3 track, use your laptop, your PC, and your ipod. they should sound different. why? no - you're not just imagining things.

in theory amplifiers should ideally be linear devices, just multiplying an input signal into a larger output signal. but its not that simple. the devices themselves start adding higher order non-linearity. capacitors, inductors, transistors, the signal wires and so forth. and each component has its own characteristics...rise time, charge time, discharge time. even two same models of the same amp will be different, however miniscule, let alone two different amps from two different manufactures. like i said in the old thread...two 10 ohm resistors aren't the same, even though they both may theoretically have a 10 omh impedance.

its easier to argue for this than actually argue against it...in fact.

 

[KHarvey16]

I think the topic is complicated by the various enhancements and effects built into amplifiers, especially when they aren't explicitly detailed. I think an argument can be made that amplification is amplification, where any competently designed and built model will perform equally. But when comparing two real-world amplifiers, there is all kinds of tuning and shaping being done that can certainly make things sound different.

 

[Timedog]

Timedog:

Not sure there are audible differences. balanced just means one more terminal for ground IIRC. My pre-amp doesn't have balanced outputs. Both XLR and RCA are analog connections.

balanced has 2 conductors, one phase inverted. At the source the phase is inverted on the one connector back to normal, which effectively cancels out noise and inaccuracies picked up along the length of the cable, because the noise is picked up in the same phase across both conductors, so when one conductor has it's phase reversed the noise on from both conductors cancel each other out, leading to a greater signal to noise ratio than with unbalanced.

I think the topic is complicated by the various enhancements and effects built into amplifiers, especially when they aren't explicitly detailed. I think an argument can be made that amplification is amplification, where any competently designed and built model will perform equally. But when comparing two real-world amplifiers, there is all kinds of tuning and shaping being done that can certainly make things sound different.

Especially when you have something like a tube that is going to make things nonlinear.

do a simple test. use the headphone port of some of your household devices using the same pair of headphones and the same mp3 track, use your laptop, your PC, and your ipod. they should sound different. why? no - you're not just imagining things.

A big part of the sound difference would be due to A to D converters. Not a very good test.

I then started reading online about how power conditioners are bullshit

How are power conditioners bullshit? At my old residence my equipment would fuck up because of brownouts. I needed one.

 

[Timedog]

dp

 

[pj]

How are power conditioners bullshit? At my old residence my equipment would fuck up because of brownouts. I needed one.

I mean in the sense that they "purify" the signal and result in better sound quality. I'm talking about people who pay hundreds of dollars for power conditioners when they have a perfectly stable power supply

Also, I should have been more clear when I said all amps are the same. I mean that all well designed amps of the same type will sound the same, I know that a solid state amp won't sound the same as a tube amp.. Unless the SS amp is designed to sound like a tube amp or something. I assume you're right when you say amp designers engineer them to modify the sound. I don't know how often that's the case or how much they change the sound, but I believe all amps designed to be neutral will sound the same, regardless of cost. If someone ever did a blind a/b comparison between equally powerful emotiva and krell amps, I would be completely shocked if the participants could tell which is which.

I'm aware that "well designed" is an ambiguous term and I don't know where the line is between well designed and poorly designed, but I feel that diminishing returns starts hitting hard once you get to things like a/v receivers and low end separates.

do a simple test. use the headphone port of some of your household devices using the same pair of headphones and the same mp3 track, use your laptop, your PC, and your ipod. they should sound different. why? no - you're not just imagining things.

you know that wouldn't mean anything

 

[Squeak]

Testing A/V equipment is really a (black) art. Factors such as what you are used to (a HUGE factor even for experts), slight changes in loudness from different setups and equipment and and changes in dynamic range and frequency range (with same resolution), all makes (real) testing very time consuming and expensive.

 

[nitewulf]

guys .... u at least assume the DAC is somewhat consistent...

 

[Winged Creature]

a high quality intergrated amp wont have this problem, its a one box solution. but you need to keep in mind when chaning a high quality pre-amp and a high quality power-amp, that whatever interconnects you're using has to be have the least amount of effect.

So if the signal is needed to be preserved going from the pre-amp to the amp, wouldnt you say the same going from the source to the pre-amp, when analogue ouputs on the source are used. If the signal from the cd player or the turntable are being degraded it wouldnt matter if ur connection between your pre and power are pristine since your signal path is affected in a different part of the change. So wouldnt this rule out integrated amps from being immune?

 

[Winged Creature]

amps do sound very different indeed, I used to use a vintage pioneer integrated amp sounded fine, but when i upgraded to my cambridge audio amp the bass really opened up, this was evident to everyone that heard the amp, and most of these ppl were not audiophiles. Amps do sound different. You can have the best speaker in the world, but if you dont have a good amp it wont sound like its supposed too.

 

[nitewulf]

So if the signal is needed to be preserved going from the pre-amp to the amp, wouldnt you say the same going from the source to the pre-amp, when analogue ouputs on the source are used.

absolutely. i didn't say otherwise.

If the signal from the cd player or the turntable are being degraded it wouldnt matter if ur connection between your pre and power are pristine since your signal path is affected in a different part of the change. So wouldnt this rule out integrated amps from being immune?

yes, i am not taking a different stance...your source connection, AND source files (flac, cds) have to be pristine to begin with, i assumed that. i was just talking about integrated amp vs separates.

people are actually saying all amps are same! you know?? i mean, yeah...if you draw two amp block diagrams on a piece of paper, they are the same...i could see that...i am speechless...

 

[Raistlin]

you can look up class A, B, A/B hybrid, C and D amplifier designs on google. none of em sound like one another. why should they?

That's my point though, you aren't comparing apples to apples

 

[nitewulf]

you can never compare apples to apples in that regard, even two same class amps wont be the same. say you need 10 ohm resistance in a feedback path right? engineers for company A decide to put one resistor in the path (and by the way, they never have actual strict impedances, theres always a plus/minus tolerance)...and engineers for company B decide to achieve the impedance by putting two resistors in series (5 and 5), and yet, engineers for company C decide to put two resitors in parallel and achieve the 10 ohm impedance (r1*r2/(r1+r2)).

yes, from a black box perspective,

signal out = A*signal in, where A is the amplification factor...two amps could be deemed similar. but when you actually MAKE one...they will never be the same. and a lot of it has to do with design decisions and respective differences between actual components.

more than this, audio engineers will have to chime in, i personally am a power systems engineer.

if you wanna believe that all amps are equal and you are just paying for the branding, so you might as well buy the cheaper amp, then do so. thats not really something i am willing to discuss farther.

 

[Raistlin]

My point is that comparing similarly spec'd amps, even though they will be different, is not even close to comparing speakers. That's what you alluded to earlier, and that's what I'm arguing.


BTW - I love the conclusions you keep jumping to.

 

[nitewulf]

My point is that comparing similarly spec'd amps, even though they will be different, is not even close to comparing speakers.

from an engineer's perspective...there's no valid reasoning to say this.

for you guys its easier to believe that because you can tangibly see the differences in speakers...you see different sized drivers and and you think, of course they'll sound different! drivers are made of different materials...of course they will sound different! cabinets are different, ports are designed differently...of course they will sound different!

guess what...same differences exist in electronic components. its more abstract but the differences are there. signals dont pass the same way through different components. ultimate output capability might be same, and thats how amps are rated but signals dont pass in the same way...

 

[yanhero]

A decide to put one resistor in the path (and by the way, they never have actual strict impedances, theres always a plus/minus tolerance)...and engineers for company B decide to achieve the impedance by putting two resistors in series (5 and 5), and yet, engineers for company C decide to put two resitors in parallel and achieve the 10 ohm impedance (r1*r2/(r1+r2)).

:lol doesn't that actually further strengthen the point that there is no difference? Are you really saying you can hear the difference between one 10ohm resistor and two 5ohm resistor in series? Stop kidding yourself.

 

[nitewulf]

:lol doesn't that actually further strengthen the point that there is no difference?

?

 

[yanhero]

?

You are trying to say that two different implementation of the same class of amplifier will sound different. Yet the example you provided just goes to show that they are essentially the same.

 

[nitewulf]

not from the point of view of the actual current flowing through the branches. the impedance of the path is "similar" but the number of components will make a difference. not saying i can "hear" the difference rather showing an example. easier way to see it is of course taking apart two same rated same class amps and look at the actual circuits. different amps will have different circuit designs achieving the same ratings, yes. but the differences in the actual circuit design and components will make them sound different.

where is this all amps sound the same thought process coming from anyway...?

 

[yanhero]

Well I'm certainly not on the boat where all amps sound the same. However, I AM on the boat for not spending 5k on an amp.

 

[Raistlin]

from an engineer's perspective...there's no valid reasoning to say this.

for you guys its easier to believe that because you can tangibly see the differences in speakers...you see different sized drivers and and you think, of course they'll sound different! drivers are made of different materials...of course they will sound different! cabinets are different, ports are designed differently...of course they will sound different!

guess what...same differences exist in electronic components. its more abstract but the differences are there. signals dont pass the same way through different components. ultimate output capability might be same, and thats how amps are rated but signals dont pass in the same way...

I disagree, since speakers have electronic components as well (unless we are talking about a single-driver speaker) ... so it's a double-whammy. Regardless, the proof is in the pudding. Simple double-blind tests show it's much easier to find differences in speakers than amps.

BTW - I'm not entirely uneducated regarding EE.

 

[Raistlin]

not from the point of view of the actual current flowing through the branches. the impedance of the path is "similar" but the number of components will make a difference. not saying i can "hear" the difference rather showing an example. easier way to see it is of course taking apart two same rated same class amps and look at the actual circuits. different amps will have different circuit designs achieving the same ratings, yes. but the differences in the actual circuit design and components will make them sound different.

What 'ratings' are you referring to? Just power ratings? Well yes, certainly ... that doesn't mean much. If we are talking about a full set of ratings, ie. a full frequency histrogram showing they are basically the same ... then I find it hard to believe you could hear a difference.

where is this all amps sound the same thought process coming from anyway...?

I don't recall anyone saying anything that strict ... I certainly didn't.

However, you previously compared the difference between amps to the difference between speakers. That is hyperbolic from my experience.

 

[KHarvey16]

I don't think it's unreasonable at all to say the differences between quality amps are not comparable in magnitude to the differences between quality speakers. The acoustics associated with cabinet design, materials, etc are really on a different level. Speakers have moving parts.

 

[Raistlin]

Thank you.

 

[koam]

Speakers have moving parts.

huh?

 

[KHarvey16]

huh?

Speakers move, man. It's what they do.

 

[Raistlin]

omg :lol

 

[Witchfinder General]

What the fuck happened to this thread?

 

[Raistlin]

witchcraft, voodoo, and other esoteric shenanigans.

 

[nitewulf]

i didnt say anything regarding speakers not having a greater impact on sound by the way. it was that first guy who said "all amps are the same", and i vehemently disagreed. and onix defended that guy, coming in with asking me to compare amps. so what else was i supposed to assume?

what i said to that guy was, "next you'll say all speakers are the same as well.", did you read that part onix, or no? how did you figure my stance was speakers dont have as much impact?

please keep up with the thread, people.

its easier to tell the differences between speakers, that is probably true. i certainly would spend more portion of a budget on speakers than the other components. but to say amps dont make a difference is...well, delusional, imo.

 

[Raistlin]

i didnt say anything regarding speakers not having a greater impact on sound by the way. it was that first guy who said "all amps are the same", and i vehemently disagreed. and onix defended that guy, coming in with asking me to compare amps. so what else was i supposed to assume?

I'm not trying to be a dick here, but you may want to reread my post

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=15423383&postcount=208

I was not defending the idea that all amps are the same at all (in the post, I said all amps are NOT the same) ... I was debating your implication that the audible difference between amps is at the same magnitude as the audible difference in speakers.

what i said to that guy was, "next you'll say all speakers are the same as well.", did you read that part onix, or no? how did you figure my stance was speakers dont have as much impact?

I didn't take it as you saying speakers have less impact. I took it as you saying amps have as much impact, which is where I disagree (when talking about relatively similar specs).

please keep up with the thread, people.

I am

its easier to tell the differences between speakers, that is probably true. i certainly would spend more portion of a budget on speakers than the other components. but to say amps dont make a difference is...well, delusional, imo.

That's pretty much what I said ... we took your comment as stating the audible differences in amps is at the same magnitude as speakers ... that's why we are questioning it.

 

[nitewulf]

in that case we are in agreement, i do think speakers are the most important part, of course your input has to be of a high fidelity to begin with. your speaker isnt gonna produce magic out of 128kbps mp3s.

but i do think amps, even if they have the same power rating, and are of the same class will sound different from each other. and its not just a placebo-effect. some amps do sound very cool, detailed and so forth, others sound muddy, others sound warm, others neutral, others musical. they all have their characters like speakers do.

 

[pj]

*jumps back in*

in that case we are in agreement, i do think speakers are the most important part, of course your input has to be of a high fidelity to begin with. your speaker isnt gonna produce magic out of 128kbps mp3s.

but i do think amps, even if they have the same power rating, and are of the same class will sound different from each other. and its not just a placebo-effect. some amps do sound very cool, detailed and so forth, others sound muddy, others sound warm, others neutral, others musical. they all have their characters like speakers do.

Even if those differences do exist, couldn't they be explained as design choices? If so, why do amps cost so much? Does it really cost $3k+ to make an amp sound "neutral" or "warm"? What is going into these things that make them cost so much?

I understand there are quality levels in parts like capacitors and toroidal transformers and what not (I'm not taking a stance on whether they affect sound quality), but at what point are you just paying for a swankier looking and heavier metal box? I seriously doubt there are more than $100 of raw materials, not including the enclosure, in a $3000 amp, or a $10000 amp for that matter.

 

[Flek]

iam using those babys

fucking love everything about them. Hama Kardon Soundstrick II

 

[Raistlin]

*jumps back in*




Even if those differences do exist, couldn't they be explained as design choices? If so, why do amps cost so much? Does it really cost $3k+ to make an amp sound "neutral" or "warm"? What is going into these things that make them cost so much?

I understand there are quality levels in parts like capacitors and toroidal transformers and what not (I'm not taking a stance on whether they affect sound quality), but at what point are you just paying for a swankier looking and heavier metal box? I seriously doubt there are more than $100 of raw materials, not including the enclosure, in a $3000 amp, or a $10000 amp for that matter.

I would say you aren't just paying for a swankier box ... you're paying for the design knowhow, at least in the cases where it’s a good sounding amp

Like speakers, certain aspects of its sound are going to be subjective. It should be noted that for there to be differences in sound, that implies the amps are in fact not truly neutral. Dark, warm, cold, etc. descriptions are all indicative of some alteration to the sound. If you were to get extremely accurate data of the full frequency response (at various amplitudes and loads), similarly detailed phase data, distortion data, etc … it would become obvious there are in fact definable differences in the amplified waveform leading to these variations in character. The data may not explain all the differences, but certainly many of them.

So assuming you can’t find a truly neutral amp, it then comes down to personal preference for what characteristics you want (obviously what other stuff, especially your speakers’ character, you have in your chain is going to alter what you may or may not want in your amp). Basically, it’s a bit like shopping for speakers that have a ‘sound’ you like, though in general the effects aren’t as noticeable imo (at least for similar designs).


A common example of this is tube amps. Many people prefer the sound of them, their ‘warmth’, but that warmth doesn’t necessarily imply absolute accuracy. Many agree the sound is due in part to their non-linear clipping and even-order harmonics. I find it hard to believe that yields a truly neutral amplification signal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_sound

 

[nitewulf]

*jumps back in*




Even if those differences do exist, couldn't they be explained as design choices? If so, why do amps cost so much? Does it really cost $3k+ to make an amp sound "neutral" or "warm"? What is going into these things that make them cost so much?

I understand there are quality levels in parts like capacitors and toroidal transformers and what not (I'm not taking a stance on whether they affect sound quality), but at what point are you just paying for a swankier looking and heavier metal box? I seriously doubt there are more than $100 of raw materials, not including the enclosure, in a $3000 amp, or a $10000 amp for that matter.

I’ll tell you what I think.

You are paying a premium for the enclosure, that’s why integrated amps are a better value for money than seperates. The machined thick aluminum enclosures with heat sinks are very expensive.

The Mcintosh that I own has output transformers. And those transformers are very expensive to manufacture. Copper is expensive. These are hand wound. You’re paying for the copper and craftsmanship.

Aside from that at what point are you paying more for branding and craftsmanship vs. raw materials, that is a hard judgment for me to make. I can’t easily say that. For Shindo Tube amps, you are exclusively paying for parts (the tubes are all classic vintage, very expensive) and Shindo’s craftsmanship, he makes them all by hand. So you are paying for his design and the parts, which themselves are very expensive. For solid state amps, you are paying a lot for the case design, which is important for efficient heat dissipation, specially for Class A amps, which run very hot, plus you are paying for the amplifier circuit design itself and what innovation, if any, that engineering team brings to the table. Like someone mentioned earlier, basic amp design hasn’t changed a lot over the last few decades. But there are better ways to reduce RF interference, keeping the internal power circuitry isolated from the amplification circuitry and so forth, even the volume knob and how it operates, generic potentiometers, to very well designed potentiometers to very fancy micro-controller based switches (Classe CAP-2100 : http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_4/classe-cap-2100-integrated-amplifier-10-2005-part-1.html), output transformers, and high end components…and ultimately you are paying for all these things.

You can compare the mass market brands at Best Buy type stores and hi-fi brands at hi-fi stores. The setups will be different so it’s hard to make a judgment on what is actually causing the audible differences. You could talk to people in the hi-fi stores, some of them are very knowledgeable. And ultimately if you think the audiophile grade equipment do not warrant their prices then that’s a decision you have to make.

You own a mac book pro don’t you? so you tell me at what point you are paying for the branding and the box itself.

 

[pj]

I’ll tell you what I think.

You are paying a premium for the enclosure, that’s why integrated amps are a better value for money than seperates. The machined thick aluminum enclosures with heat sinks are very expensive.

The Mcintosh that I own has output transformers. And those transformers are very expensive to manufacture. Copper is expensive. These are hand wound. You’re paying for the copper and craftsmanship.

Aside from that at what point are you paying more for branding and craftsmanship vs. raw materials, that is a hard judgment for me to make. I can’t easily say that. For Shindo Tube amps, you are exclusively paying for parts (the tubes are all classic vintage, very expensive) and Shindo’s craftsmanship, he makes them all by hand. So you are paying for his design and the parts, which themselves are very expensive. For solid state amps, you are paying a lot for the case design, which is important for efficient heat dissipation, specially for Class A amps, which run very hot, plus you are paying for the amplifier circuit design itself and what innovation, if any, that engineering team brings to the table. Like someone mentioned earlier, basic amp design hasn’t changed a lot over the last few decades. But there are better ways to reduce RF interference, keeping the internal power circuitry isolated from the amplification circuitry and so forth, even the volume knob and how it operates, generic potentiometers, to very well designed potentiometers to very fancy micro-controller based switches (Classe CAP-2100 : http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_4/classe-cap-2100-integrated-amplifier-10-2005-part-1.html), output transformers, and high end components…and ultimately you are paying for all these things.

You can compare the mass market brands at Best Buy type stores and hi-fi brands at hi-fi stores. The setups will be different so it’s hard to make a judgment on what is actually causing the audible differences. You could talk to people in the hi-fi stores, some of them are very knowledgeable. And ultimately if you think the audiophile grade equipment do not warrant their prices then that’s a decision you have to make.

Most of that makes sense, and I don't disagree enough to keep this going, although I question the benefit of hand made electronics..

You own a mac book pro don’t you? so you tell me at what point you are paying for the branding and the box itself.

Yeah I know full well that I paid $2000 for an at best $1500 laptop. 90% of my reasoning was how it looks, but I don't think it's going to get me to gaf any faster than a dell laptop would.

Also, I just blew $1300 on these! (fronts + center)

They claim the finish makes the mids sound more full

 

[nitewulf]

They claim the finish makes the mids sound more full

they are beautiful. that kind of esoteric claim would irritate me as well. i have dynaudios and they dont make these kinds of silly claims, they are an engineering company all the way through. with the Mac, i paid a premium for american legacy, and it sounds absolutely beautiful as well.

i dont do things w/o thinking, and the interconnects did make quite a bit of difference, and i'd welcome anyone in for a demo of my system. im pretty proud of it at this point.

another thing i wanted to point out when you mentioned why you didn't get the 200wpc amp, is that, a higher power amp would increase the dynamics as well, not just loudness. if you have efficient speakers, that's not an issue. my dyns are very power hungry and rock music with fast drumming and jamming guitars sounded muddy at loud levels, the mac cleared that up. you are not always paying for loudness in this regard.

mind you, i bought speakers that were a class above my integrated amp, so i had to upgrade my amp. if i bought another set of efficient speakers...i wouldn't have had to. balancing a proper stereo is difficult and costly, but that's what passions and hobbies are about.

 

[Raistlin]

They claim the finish makes the mids sound more full

:lol

Seriously though, what brand are those?