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[Aarglefarg]

Prime Minister Says The Laws Of Mathematics Are Trumped By Australian Law

[ZDNet's Asha] Mclean: Won't the laws of mathematics trump the laws of Australia? And then aren't you also forcing people onto de-centralised systems as a result.

Turnbull: Well the laws of Australia prevail in Australia I can assure you of that. The laws of mathematics are very commendable, but the only law that applies in Australia is the law of Australia.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/markdistefano/turnbull-war-on-maths

 

[Fredescu]

Ludlam eh.

 

[jambo]

Man what a loss =[

 

[Mr. Tone]

What a goddamn shame.

 

[Aarglefarg]

Quite a big surprise to see this pop up on my TV. If he loses his NZ citizenship then he can just run again, right?

There's been a lot of these ineligibility findings in the past year!

 

[Spinifex]

I feel like this kind of shit always hits the good people and never the bad. Isn't Tony Abbott a dual national too? Didn't seem to mean shit.

 

[Aarglefarg]

I feel like this kind of shit always hits the good people and never the bad. Isn't Tony Abbott a dual national too? Didn't seem to mean shit.

Barry Cassidy just said two minutes ago that there were rumours but Abbott eventually denied them.

I would have thought it would be easily checked but apparently not.

 

[Jintor]

Holy shit

 

[luchadork]

well that fucking suuucks

 

[Zushin]

Damn Ludlum going and Turnbull trying to force back doors into encryption is a big 1 2 for fucking over digital rights today :/

 

[Elaugaufein]

Quite a big surprise to see this pop up on my TV. If he loses his NZ citizenship then he can just run again, right?

There's been a lot of these ineligibility findings in the past year!

Since it's a Senate position he could rectify the problem and be appointed as his own replacement technically assuming it was done fast enough. Its actually happened before with a Labor politician who was in the military at the time IIRC.

And yeah this is a big blow for digital rights and a basic understanding of digital technology in general. Ludlam was close to unique in being willing to publicly take positions contra to screaming about NatSec and Safety.

Its probably not great for the Greens generally either really, seeing Ludlam at PAX was the thing that finally motivated me to actually formally join.

ETA - On Senate position: Actually I don't know if this is a casual vacancy or an inellgibility which would be a recount. I think it's technically a casual vacancy since he hasn't been declared inellgibile (?) but a challenge to that would cause him to be declared ineligible. This is a weird one.

 

[jambo]

I feel like this kind of shit always hits the good people and never the bad. Isn't Tony Abbott a dual national too? Didn't seem to mean shit.

 

[Shandy]

Shit, Ludlam was one of the few things a West Australian could be proud of.

Life is cruel and unfair.

 

[hirokazu]

Missed opportunity to troll everyone by changing the font used to Calibri.

 

[wonzo]

hope ludlam renounces his nz citizenship and runs in a marginal wa seat. the 22 yo disability campaigner most likely to replace him will be an invaluable senator

abbott owning the broekn boomers with this is the only silver lining of tonight

 

[Elaugaufein]

hope ludlam renounces his nz citizenship and runs in a marginal wa seat. the 22 yo disability campaigner most likely to replace him will be an invaluable senator



abbott owning the broekn boomers with this is the only silver lining of tonight

Are there any marginal (so Lower House) Greens seats in WA ? It looks like historically there's been 1 but it was won by Labor at the next election and it looks like the initial election was due to the Liberals not running a candidate and their supporters splitting for the Greens at a rate improbable today.

He'd have to move to Melbourne or Sydney to have much of a shot Federally. There's like one Federal seat in Queensland which might be theoretically sorta winnable in the future with a recognisable name and a concerted campaign but I don't think it'd happen at the next election, unless the Greens manage to win 2 Brisbane based state seats at the next Qld election which is unlikely (its vaguely possible but I'd be betting on 0 or maybe 1 if I was feeling optimistic)

The other thing would be moving to Tas and running against Wilkie but I suspect there's enough bad blood there already and the Greens are unlikely to win that anyway (Wilkie was actually a Greens candidate before a falling out, so his policies and positions are pretty similar*).

* And he's even pretty similar to Ludlam on privacy and digital rights issues so not much look in there.

 

[wonzo]

Are there any marginal (so Lower House) Greens seats in WA ? It looks like historically there's been 1 but it was won by Labor at the next election and it looks like that was due to the Liberals not running a candidate and their supporters splitting for the Greens at a rate improbable today.

yeah looking at wa and it does seem like slim pickings. no real point going after wilkie but i think he could do some real damage if he ran in a greens targeted nsw seat, could actually win one as he's charismatic and a very good campaigner unlike the last couple they've ran in the inner city. otherwise theres always victoria but im not sure the candidates from last time round would be willing to give up an almost sure thing

 

[bobnowhere]

Kiwi secret agent eh?

Extraordinarily stupid mistake from Ludlum and The Greens.

Fremantle would be the seat to target, very left wing council, wouldn't take much to push the ALP into 2nd and with a star candidate... Though it's probably a long term project, multiple elections, and I don't think Ludlum would want to wait.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Kiwi secret agent eh?

Extraordinarily stupid mistake from Ludlum and The Greens.

Fremantle would be the seat to target, very left wing council, wouldn't take much to push the ALP into 2nd and with a star candidate... Though it's probably a long term project, multiple elections, and I don't think Ludlum would want to wait.

Yeah, looks like it'd be at least 2 Election cycles, probably significantly more.

 

[Dryk]

 

[HowZatOZ]

Kept buried in the ground?

 

[danm999]

Looks like Dutton is getting his super department, oxymoronic as Dutton and intelligence are to each other.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...rity-department-20170717-gxcpgl.html#comments

Constantly failing upwards this one.

 

[Quasar]

Looks like Dutton is getting his super department, oxymoronic as Dutton and intelligence are to each other.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...rity-department-20170717-gxcpgl.html#comments

Constantly failing upwards this one.

Darth Dutton continues building his police state.

 

[Elaugaufein]

I still don't think he's falling upwards, he's got to know where bodies are buried. You could easily replace him with someone as authoritarian and anti-foreigner but competent and yet he's survived 2 PMs and numerous reshuffles without a demotion.

 

[bobnowhere]

I still don't think he's falling upwards, he's got to know where bodies are buried. You could easily replace him with someone as authoritarian and anti-foreigner but competent and yet he's survived 2 PMs and numerous reshuffles without a demotion.

He has a group of supporters, the righter wing part of the LNP and various aggrieved coalition man-babies that want to return us to the 1950s Australia wide. Why they think he is the answer to the question beats me. The coalition doesn't have the formal factions of the ALP, informal maybe, but the higher ups only get somewhere by attracting acolytes and Dutton has a loyal cadre.

Turnbull's press conference today with SAS in masks in the background today was pretty grotty.

Also:

 

[Quasar]

Darth Dutton prevails.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-18/malcolm-turnbull-announces-new-federal-super-ministry/8719424

 

[Omikron]

Larissa Waters now also gone over citizenship.

 

[bobnowhere]

What on earth?

Looks like ex-democrat leader Andrew Bartlett will come in as a Green.

 

[Spinifex]

I'm resigning from GAF. I have just realized I failed to renounce my IGN Vestibule citizenship from 2001.

 

[danm999]

Jesus christ the Greens are useless.

 

[Quasar]

What on earth?

Looks like ex-democrat leader Andrew Bartlett will come in as a Green.

Speaking of recent events have got me wondering about the final days of the democrats again.

 

[Dryk]

I was meh over this news until I realised I was thinking of Lee Rhiannon and not Larissa Waters

 

[bobnowhere]

I bet there is an awful lot of pollies making absolutely sure of their citizen arrangements are correct right about now!

There was a guy on The Drum last Friday who mentioned that section 44 still has some open questions regarding dual-citizenship and if the allegiance is owed to another member of the Commonwealth Realm, The UK, NZ, Can, Jamaica etc... and whether that is truly a "foreign power." Another deportation case, Patterson, suggests the UK is alien but not a foreign power.

Sue vs. Hill did rule out an ONP member in the 90s due to her UK citizenship and it doesn't look like either green will challenge but it is just another example of where the constitution should be tightened up but never will be as it's all too hard.

 

[wonzo]

lol at QLD & WA self owning after the NSW broohaha was sorta kinda dealt with. gg richard

e: its dumb that dual citizens cant run for federal representation but this is also something super easy to check beforehand

ee: lmao https://twitter.com/MarkDiStef/status/887163047730569219

 

[bomma_man]

I bet there is an awful lot of pollies making absolutely sure of their citizen arrangements are correct right about now!

There was a guy on The Drum last Friday who mentioned that section 44 still has some open questions regarding dual-citizenship and if the allegiance is owed to another member of the Commonwealth Realm, The UK, NZ, Can, Jamaica etc... and whether that is truly a "foreign power." Another deportation case, Patterson, suggests the UK is alien but not a foreign power.

Sue vs. Hill did rule out an ONP member in the 90s due to her UK citizenship and it doesn't look like either green will challenge but it is just another example of where the constitution should be tightened up but never will be as it's all too hard.

Iirc there was an immigration case that ruled that line of argument out. You would need a VERY originalist court to get that over the line.

 

[bobnowhere]

Apparently they story goes, an unnamed lawyer doesn't like Derryn Hinch and doubted that he had renounced his NZ birth citizenship so the lawyer sent the names of all Kiwi born politicians, so as to avoid the pretense that he was solely after Hinch, to the New Zealand High Commission and it was Ludlum that came back positive.

 

[Dead Man]

Apparently they story goes, an unnamed lawyer doesn't like Derryn Hinch and doubted that he had renounced his NZ birth citizenship so the lawyer sent the names of all Kiwi born politicians, so as to avoid the pretense that he was solely after Hinch, to the New Zealand High Commission and it was Ludlum that came back positive.

What a cunt.

 

[Quasar]

What a cunt.

I did wonder what set this all off. Though I would have thought given all the chatter about Tony people would have checked to make sure all their houses were in order as it were.

 

[bomma_man]

"How has this never occurred to anyone before?"

The relevant High Court Decision was in 1992 (Skyes v Cleary) and at least the Labor Party but I would assume the Libs too very rigorously check all candidates prior to their official nomination. Not just whether they were born overseas, but sometimes if a parent is a citizen of another country, their children can be considered citizens too even if they were born in Australia and have lived here their whole life.

It's crazy that the Greens don't, but equally the relevant part of Skyes is:

"53. What amounts to the taking of reasonable steps to renounce foreign nationality must depend upon the circumstances of the particular case. What is reasonable will turn on the situation of the individual, the requirements of the foreign law and the extent of the connection between the individual and the foreign State of which he or she is alleged to be a subject or citizen. And it is relevant to bear in mind that a person who has participated in an Australian naturalization ceremony in which he or she has expressly renounced his or her foreign allegiance may well believe that, by becoming an Australian citizen, he or she has effectively renounced any foreign nationality."

Which I would think leaves enough room that especially Larissa Walters should test her status in court, rather than resigning.

Though the most farcical part of it is that she can renounce her citizenship of Canada, her replacement can resign the day they are sworn in, and the Greens can pick her as a casual vacancy replacement.

Sorry for the tl;dr

Posted by a friend of a friend lawyer on Facebook, so grain of salt (re interpretation).

 

[Aarglefarg]

Richard Di Natale's email:

Dear Aarglefarg

It’s been a really tough couple of weeks for all of us who love and support the Greens.

I know many of us are reeling at Larissa's news off the back of Scott's and no doubt feeling pretty frustrated with us right now. Believe me, I share your frustration. That’s why today I spoke with our national Party Convenors and we agreed to take action.

Today we have committed to thoroughly review our processes so that we continue be the strong voices you have entrusted to fight for all the issues you care about.

Both Larissa and Scott have been phenomenal representatives of their states and our great party. As warriors for the environment, social justice, digital and gender rights, their departures are deeply saddening. I have lost two of my dearest friends and we have all lost two incredibly talented, hard working Members. I know both my former deputies feel they have unfinished business. I’m sure we will see them fighting for progressive change again in the near future.

This afternoon I talked to the media about the two outstanding people we’ve farewelled and how, in the wake of their resignations, we’re going to undertake a root-and-branch review to make sure we come out of this bigger, stronger and better.

[...]
When I first joined the party more than 15 years ago, we had one Federal MP and were lucky to poll a few percent. A lot has changed since then: we’ve grown a lot and have tens of thousands of people shedding blood, sweat and tears to help the party achieve its vision. And I’m so proud that we now see many more Greens elected at every level of government, with more than 1 million Australians giving us their no.1 vote at each federal election.

But this fantastic growth means people expect much more of us, and the last few weeks show that we must improve our processes and strengthen our governance.

[...]
I will not walk away from major challenges like this, and neither will the party. I am convinced we will come out of this stronger, and I’m excited to continue fighting for our movement alongside my colleagues and with your enormous support.

Again, I’m sorry we’ve let you down this past fortnight. Thanks for everything you do to support the Greens.


Richard

 

[Dryk]

I need to check and see if I'm an Italian citizen by blood at some point. Especially if I want to work in defence where it helps to know for sure.

 

[bobnowhere]

Posted by a friend of a friend lawyer on Facebook, so grain of salt (re interpretation).

I saw an interview with Sam Dastyari and he had to go to ridiculous lengths to drop his Iranian citizenship. His parents were declared as dissidents so the Iranian government had no interest in even working with him on it. Cost him tens of thousands to clear himself.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Ugh. This has not been a good 7 days.

I saw an interview with Sam Dastyari and he had to go to ridiculous lengths to drop his Iranian citizenship. His parents were declared as dissidents so the Iranian government had no interest in even working with him on it. Cost him tens of thousands to clear himself.

That was probably unnecessary. All you need is proof of reasonable effort,so him saying uncitizen me and them saying no is sufficient. Makes sense to make it Crystal if you can afford it though.

 

[hirokazu]

What a cunt.

I don't care which party a member belongs to, I think there should be repercussions for candidates and MPs going forward when they misreport something that affects their eligibity for parliament.

As civilians, there can be can all manner of repercussions when we misreport something, there ought to be strong repercussions when a candidate doesn't take due care in reporting their eligibility given that:

- It's really freaking easy for you to self-check this criteria with the relevant consulates and high commissions
- It's really freaking difficult for the AEC to confirm this information is correct for all candidates

As someone whose political views often line up with The Greens', I think this is something that had to happen and I thank that person for bringing the issue to light.

 

[Elaugaufein]

I don't care which party a member belongs to, I think there should be repercussions for candidates and MPs going forward when they misreport something that affects their eligibity for parliament.

As civilians, there can be can all manner of repercussions when we misreport something, there ought to be strong repercussions when a candidate doesn't take due care in reporting their eligibility given that:

- It's really freaking easy for you to self-check this criteria with the relevant consulates and high commissions
- It's really freaking difficult for the AEC to confirm this information is correct for all candidates

As someone whose political views often line up with The Greens', I think this is something that had to happen and I thank that person for bringing the issue to light.

If you deliberately and knowingly misreported you'd be guilty of fraud. And since it'd be fraud on the Commonwealth it would end badly for you. There's also fines for sitting in either House under such circumstances.

The Citizenship clause is a mess because modern citizenship rules are a) completely different than when it was written , and the Court opted not to account for that and b) are also a mess, unless you know someone between you and the country you have ancestry from died without holding citizenship and no one in between took it up, you may fall afoul of the clause depending on the country. Whereas some others are by country of birth. And dual citizenship has no international standards because why would it ? Its not like thats important.

I agree the man didn't do anything wrong, clearly Ludlam didn't think so either since he protected him as a whistleblower.

 

[bobnowhere]

Now Andrew Bartlett might be ruled ineligible under section 44 as he was employed by the ANU at the time and the ANU receives government funding. Might just be Sky muckraking.

At least the Greens had 12 on their ticket, one of them must be eligible!

 

[Elaugaufein]

Now Andrew Bartlett might be ruled ineligible under section 44 as he was employed by the ANU at the time and the ANU receives government funding. Might just be Sky muckraking.

At least the Greens had 12 on their ticket, one of them must be eligible!

I don't think your employer receiving government funding would be sufficient generally speaking*. The precedent I've seen includes having a direct interest in a business dealing with the government or being directly employed by the government (eg a public school teacher or member of the army (though the later one has since been specifically removed IIRC because it caught a major party member and was stupid)). But there's very little guidance here since rulings are so uncommon , and it depends on how strictly the current Court reads it, since these things are so rare there's not even much of a precedent for how strictly to interpret stuff.

(I don't believe the ANU is a public university in the sense that public schools are government ownerd ? I don't think any such thing currently exists generally speaking, )

*Largely because you can count the number of large businesses who don't get direct or indirect (through taxbreaks etc) governement in Australia on one hand with fingers left over most likely.

 

[hirokazu]

If you deliberately and knowingly misreported you'd be guilty of fraud. And since it'd be fraud on the Commonwealth it would end badly for you. There's also fines for sitting in either House under such circumstances.

The Citizenship clause is a mess because modern citizenship rules are a) completely different than when it was written , and the Court opted not to account for that and b) are also a mess, unless you know someone between you and the country you have ancestry from died without holding citizenship and no one in between took it up, you may fall afoul of the clause depending on the country. Whereas some others are by country of birth. And dual citizenship has no international standards because why would it ? Its not like thats important.

I agree the man didn't do anything wrong, clearly Ludlam didn't think so either since he protected him as a whistleblower.

The Libs and Labor manage to screen all their candidates following the previous court rulings, so it can't be that that hard for all parties to do so. That's why I say we can forgive these two Greens senators but there should be penalties in future to keep pollies on their toes and not be lazy fucks about it.

 

[Elaugaufein]

The Libs and Labor manage to screen all their candidates following the previous court rulings, so it can't be that that hard for all parties to do so. That's why I say we can forgive these two Greens senators but there should be penalties in future to keep pollies on their toes and not be lazy fucks about it.

Actually Labor is currently challenging a Lib in the House under the pecuniary interest clause, so not so much there. Court rulings on this section are so rare that it seems like everyone is doing their diligence until suddenly they aren't.

I'm also strongly against penalties for good faith mistakes because it even further advantages the major parties who can afford to have lawyers on retainer and afford the costs of failure to comply too. Very few independents could.

 

[Candescence]

Oh, great, now we've got people arguing with a straight face that compulsory voting is the cause of the "political deadlock". All these arguments reek of "why can't we be more like the US" and "we can't disenfranchise voters".

Maybe, just maybe, the Coalition is just bad at negotiating their policies and/or their policies are just bad, the two major parties have been languishing on neoliberal policies for so long that the electorate are annoyed, and and in spite of all that Gillard still got a ton of stuff done despite having minority government? Fucking hell.


Also, apparently Shorten is planning to announce a hard push against economic inequality as part of Labor's policies to take to the election. Hopefully it's not all bluster, but considering his shadow treasurer is something of a right-wing twat, well...