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[MalboroRed]

The point of my post wasn't to defend S4 - I'm just stating that the reasons you think the game is/isn't successful are baseless. The series in the past describes everything you say a community can't be built around (average graphics, average campaign, steep learning curve), but it put up great numbers online and had quite a following that stuck with the game through a number of other big releases.

I don't think anyone is assuming there is an amazing CoD-like userbase for the game, but I don't think any of the players from the older games in the series will quit S4 because the graphics are average, the campaign was bad, or that they got their ass kicked online.

SOCOM wasn't successful on the PS2 because it was ugly and clunky, or that it had a steep learning curve, SOCOM's success on the PS2 had to do being the most robust MP experience at the time with very few alternatives on the PS2, things like friends list and party system were virtually unheard of on the PS2, this is definitely not the case on the PS3 where there are plenty of good MP games on the system, many of which are very easy to get into with a good number of maps and you can play them with friends, you can't build a game on average graphics, clunky controls and a steep learning curve nowadays and expect it to be successful anymore.

I'm not sure why anyone would want to deal with bullshit like disabling crosshair over objects, it doesn't make SOCOM special, same with forcing the player to look at a reloading icon, just have that built into the reload animation ffs, SOCOM needed to be brought up to date, the problem is that Zipper updated some things and not others, they can't just package SOCOM 1/2 with better graphics, it wouldn't work.

 

[Rubenov]

Speaking of all this reminded me I never played MAG... does it still have an active community? I would like to get into it, hopefully I won't get destroyed too bad.

 

[arnoldocastillo2003]

Just annoying when I have friends who were affected, and you are using static site text as your counter evidence as it isn't a big deal.

Ok i understand your point of view, and now that you are talking about it, do your friends know the reason why they were fired or do they know the rumors about the company and the layoffs, you should ask them and maybe post them in here, so that we can see their points of view too.

 

[MalboroRed]

Layoffs at studios working for/owned by Sony so far this year:
March - London Studio, Studio Liverpool, Evolution Studios(Restructure/layoffs)
March - SOE's Denver, Seattle and Tucson studios(Closed)
March - SOE San Diego, Austin(layoffs)
April - Cohort Studios (Closed)
May - Zipper (layoffs)

It's a massacre.

Development costs too much, stakes are too high and one bad game can sink a studio.

 

[Vilam]

Maybe the positions laid-off "tonight" were the usuals "people being laid-off after releasing a big game".

Nothing against you personally, but I'm so tired of hearing this in threads about company layoffs. Contract workers leaving at the end of a project aren't layoffs. Layoffs mean people are unexpectedly losing their jobs. A hell of a lot of legit jobs have been lost in this industry this gen and it sucks. Thinking it's just routine downsizing following a shipped product is disrespectful to those who lost their jobs.

 

[plufim]

http://www.zipperint.com/company.html

Zipper currently has nearly 150 employees located in downtown Redmond, and is still hiring.


just saw this on the website

To be fair, that'd be the last thing they'd update.

 

[hebrew hammer]

In fact they were so shit that Bungie hired their graphics lead. Really, enjoy living on your cloud of ignorance.

They are all smart people. Manangement was still blatantly poor.

 

[fernoca]

Nothing against you personally, but I'm so tired of hearing this in threads about company layoffs. Contract workers leaving at the end of a project aren't layoffs. Layoffs mean people are unexpectedly losing their jobs. A hell of a lot of legit jobs have been lost in this industry this gen and it sucks. Thinking its just routine downsizing following a shipped product is disrespectful to those who lost their jobs.

Keep in mind that available information at the moment of that post (around 4 hours ago) was quite limited and based on:

#1. Limited information from Twitter posts
#2. A link talking that one of the positions mentioned (Lead Designer), was not the result of the layoff but the person quitting the job last month.

As I also said:

So far it seems to be something "normal" rather then "Socom 4 bombed..start packing!!". But not too many details out..yet.​

So that reply was based on that, as there has been cases were people go around talking about they losing their jobs or being fired, hiding other things (like being under contracts, or unsatisfactory performance). Then some more information came in from Twitter, but still wasn't clear...as the person implied that she didn't worked in Socom 4 till later (though it was never clear when she joined the team). Then came more sources and more confirmations.

So sorry for making assumptions based on what limited information was originally out there, 4 hours ago.

Plus I can identify with them since I can't find a job "in the industry", or any job for that matter...so, is not like I'm oblivious to layoffs and how things work. Still like what I do, so no biggie..for now...maybe I'll start focusing on other areas too.

 

[sixteen-bit]

This gen ha been so hard on devs.

 

[rdrr gnr]

I thought Socom 4 was a terrible game regardless of the PSN issue, but it's never good to see people losing their jobs. I hope they all find success somewhere else.

 

[Noshino]

Zipper Interactive f'd up completely. They were poorly managed: missed release dates and released mediocre titles. I don't understand how you could say that management wasn't shit. People that do a poor job get axed. I don't understand less senior staff getting axed though.

wtf are you talking about? have you even played any of their games? hell, MAG's netcode alone puts them ahead of most studios.

 

[Busty]

Sorry to hear this news.

I wonder if Sony are downsizing Zipper from 'fully fledged 'studio' to 'the people that do MP for some first party games'.

I was gutted when Crytek effectively did this to Free Radical's talent for Crysis 2 but hopefully it's a case of someone closing a door so a window can be opened.

Hopefully.

 

[sajj316]

Seems Zipper is cutting staff to get leaner and meaner. As much as it sucks, this is part of the business. Could be a host of reasons from the "bottom line" to a change in creative direction.

 

[HocusPocus]

Time to scoop them up Microsoft and make another Crimson Skies.

 

[Nirolak]

Time to scoop them up Microsoft and make another Crimson Skies.

They're wholly owned by Sony.

Unless you mean the people who were laid off specifically.

 

[RPGamer92]

Another reason to be mad at the hackers, may they one day be caught and served justice

 

[Brimstone]

Time to scoop them up Microsoft and make another Crimson Skies.

This.


Or contract Bungie to do a Crimson Skies game since it seems many ex-Fasa and ex-Zipper people went to Bungie.

 

[funkystudent]

well that sucks but Socom 4 had pretty much everything against it.

Below average critical reception, PSN being down and releasing the same week as 2 bigger, better marketed and better reviewed games that also had large online components.

also doesn't help that the Modern combat online shooter space is pretty crowded.



Still maybe having some new people in the Lead positions will work out best for the studio in the long run.

 

[lionelhutz]

year of the ps3 confirmed

 

[V_Ben]

That sucks, best of luck to them

Edit: I honestly get the feeling that Sony really tried to make Zipper's games a success though. Socom and Mag both got decent marketing, but both didn't exactly set the world on fire. I don't know what will become of zipper now, perhaps they'll become a NGP focused studio...

 

[ghst]

wrong thread. ignore.

 

[ReBurn]

Another reason to be mad at the hackers, may they one day be caught and served justice

I was just wondering if it was cliché to blame Geohot.

 

[tuco11]

Who is to blame for features on the box not being in the game day 1? ie party system.

 

[Raoh]

It's a shame. Both mag and socom4 work great in my opinion. 256 player matches, great tactical game, no issues outside of upsetting the core socom community.

I'd say they needed better leadership not staff reduction, unless most of the staff is in the management roles.

 

[EagleEyes]

We know SOCOM 4 made more than 190k in sales last month...I'm sure this month was a deadzone thanks to PSN being down.

Doesn't seem like a total bomba to me, but I dunno. I think the gears were already in motion before the game's release.

Thats about what Too Human sold in its opening month. Hmmmm.....

 

[Massa]

Who is to blame for features on the box not being in the game day 1? ie party system.

Do you honestly think the 30+ people laid off were responsible for the party system or are you just trolling Socom 4 in a thread about people getting laid off?

 

[Jburton]

Socom 4 is an excellent online shooter, I don't buy Socom for SP!

Talented guys, hopefully they all walk right in to new jobs.

One of my favourite online shooters this gen.

 

[V_Ben]

I hope Das-J is alright

(He's the one that works for Zipper, right?)

 

[soultron]

SOCOM was my first real online MP experience outside of CS1.6 back in those days. I remember being in the SOCOM 2 beta where they mailed you the disc. Good times.

Sad to see so many leads go. Best of luck to them.

 

[obonicus]

Their earnings call is in a week. People are already expecting Sony to have been hit hard by the earthquake, and PSN being down probably didn't help matters at all, so maybe these layoffs are related? Trying to prove they're cutting costs and making their operations more lean for shareholders.

 

[V_Ben]

SOCOM was my first real online MP experience outside of CS1.6 back in those days. I remember being in the SOCOM 2 beta where they mailed you the disc. Good times.

Sad to see so many leads go. Best of luck to them.

It's sad to think that the studio that created one of the defining games of the PS2's online has been pretty torn up by this. Nobody is safe :/

Fake Edit: Yeah, this seems somewhat pre-emptive of their earnings call. I hope we don't see any more layoffs.

 

[TTP]

I hope Das-J is alright

(He's the one that works for Zipper, right?)

Yeah.

 

[Gamecocks625]

Sucks to hear that. I arrived to the SOCOM scene a bit late. I got SOCOM II after it had been out forever so I got kicked out of every game I entered since I had no idea what was going on (half the fun of SOCOM games...getting booted). I jumped right into SOCOM 3 and held my own...loved it (along with Combined Assault). Probably my most favorite online-shooter since the original Rainbow Six on the PC.

 

[M.D]

Their earnings call is in a week. People are already expecting Sony to have been hit hard by the earthquake, and PSN being down probably didn't help matters at all, so maybe these layoffs are related? Trying to prove they're cutting costs and making their operations more lean for shareholders.

I really doubt laying off 33 people from one of their studios have anything to do with Sony's earnings call or overall financial situation.

It probably just a case of both MAG and Socom 4 underperforming reviews and sales wise.
What interesting is it seems a lot of the leads in Zipper were let go as well.

 

[Angry Fork]

They should've made sure the game was ready for release before releasing it and maybe it would've sold more with basic features everyone has come to expect.

No lobbies, no party system, no nade arc, camera/field of view fucked up even though everyone in the beta shitted on it, noob tubes and OTS aiming from far away ridiculously unbalanced in classic mode, no classic game modes like extraction. I bet they wanted to save that stuff to milk for DLC, I guess we'll see how that turns out now that nobody is playing the game because it was missing so much shit.

Socom 2 at 50 bucks has like 3 times the features, maps, and polish that Socom 4 had at 60$. The only thing that brought Socom 2 down was the glitches and gameshark cheaters. Unacceptable that Socom 4 released in the state it was in imo, and i'd let go whoever decided that was the right way to go. It's a shame that others had to lose their jobs who had no say in these discussions like programmers or graphics guys, but you play with fire you get burned. They took a risk by releasing an unfinished, weightless game and expected everyone to be okay with patches months after release. And I won't even get into the single player which is a whole nother discussion. I guess it's Sony's fault for all the lack of features and budgetary stuff but i don't know.

I did like MAG a lot though. It tried a lot of new things and did them very well imo. The problems with it were only stuff like the guns feeling cheap or the lack of great sounds. But it was really solid and I do hope for a sequel.

 

[woolley]

It sucks that MizzSmartyPants got laid off. She was really great to the community and tried to help people whenever she could. She'll be a big loss to the MAG community.

 

[Biff]

Unacceptable that Socom 4 released in the state it was in imo, and i'd let go whoever decided that was the right way to go.

Unfortunately, I have to agree.

Imagine if Kaz Hirai sits down to play SOCOM 4 to try it and see how it came out...

"Mr. Luisi! I am excited to try SOCOM 4™, Sony PlayStation 3™'s Premiere Online Shooting Experience™ that we've been advertising as a lead PlayStation Move™ title!"

**loads into a game.. Character spawns crucified; can't move while some teammates spawn normally and run off into the distance"

".......Let's have a 'meeting'..."

 

[theBishop]

MAG is one of my favorite games this generation, but there's no denying that Zipper has been a little off this gen. Despite my love of MAG, I can totally understand why it didn't click with people. And what little I played of Socom4 was really awful. So that's even less of a surprise.

 

[Totobeni]

This is sad news, good luck for all the guys who got laid off.

anyway,When Naughty Dog can make a multiplayer shooter that million years better than everything from SCEA #1 shooter studio, then you know there is something wrong.

MAG and SOCOM 4 did nothing for SCEA and PS3, both left zero impact on gamers and the market , Socom 4 wasn't true to the old Socoms and MAG was all over the place, I think it's time for Zipper to take a time and think what they are doing wrong,take a rest, make something new with good single and multiplayer modes.

 

[Miggytronz]

I love SOCOM 4. My first time playing a SOCOM game too. Shame.

 

[MurkyZebra2417]

Meh... i loved MAG and I have SOCOM 4 lying around here, still need to play it.
I really like Zipper and I hope they still get the budget to make MAG2

 

[BattleMonkey]

SOCOM 4 has been great so far, it has some rough edges but nothing as bad as so many of the major issues all the big hit games have had that people just gloss over.

And MAG was brilliant game that just had zero hype behind it and was greatly overshadowed by Bad Company 2. Being exclusive probably didn't help it, but it was had lot of great ideas and gameplay that felt different from the rest of the cookie cutter shooters.

 

[Shorty11857]

Speaking of all this reminded me I never played MAG... does it still have an active community? I would like to get into it, hopefully I won't get destroyed too bad.

Community is still pretty active, I've only played it once since PSN came back but had no issues getting a game. There's a miltiqueue where you select all the game modes you'd like to play and it usually finds you a game within a couple of minutes, Suppression (TDM) is the most active but you can get a game in any of them

This sucks for Zipper though, MAG is a great game, haven't played SOCOM yet but lay offs always suck

 

[Cheech]

I put over 1000 hours into SOCOM 1's multiplayer.

I think Zipper's early success was more a factor of striking while the console online gaming market was just getting off the ground. I paid $100 at Best Buy for SOCOM 1 plus the PS2 network adapter, and it turned out to be the best money I spent on gaming for 2001/2002.

However, Zipper's games have been eclipsed many times over since then, and they simply have not kept up. Anything after SOCOM 2 was a serious miscalculation of both the then-current player base and gave them absolutely no growth strategy either.

That developer has no vision, a lack of talent in every area pertaining to the pursuit of game creation, and judging by their output should have been shuttered in 2005.

It is never a fantastic thing when people lose jobs, but this is clearly a case of a bunch of moving parts that just do not gel.

 

[TheSeks]

It absolutely sucks that some folks at Zipper lost their jobs, but between SOCOM 4 and MAG they're just not cranking out high quality products, you can blame poor sales on marketing but as far as the quality of the products goes they have to bear the bulk of the responsibility.

No. The issue is they made niche products. Either too hardcore (MAG)/clunky. Or just outright clunky (Socom's). PSN being down = niche product can't be used online by said niches hardcore = lost sales.

>>Socom "Vets" Bitch about Socom 4 when it's probably less clunky than Confrontation and other Socoms before it, but still clunky.<<

GrandpaSimpson360.gif

 

[mclaren777]

If SOCOM 4 had been more like the original game I almost surely would have bought it.

 

[plainr_]

Sad news for Zipper indeed. They are one of my favorite dev studios.

 

[apana]

It seems like Sony is going through rough times right now. This whole generation has not been so good to them.

 

[GQman2121]

They should've made sure the game was ready for release before releasing it and maybe it would've sold more with basic features everyone has come to expect.

No lobbies, no party system, no nade arc, camera/field of view fucked up even though everyone in the beta shitted on it, noob tubes and OTS aiming from far away ridiculously unbalanced in classic mode, no classic game modes like extraction. I bet they wanted to save that stuff to milk for DLC, I guess we'll see how that turns out now that nobody is playing the game because it was missing so much shit.

Socom 2 at 50 bucks has like 3 times the features, maps, and polish that Socom 4 had at 60$. The only thing that brought Socom 2 down was the glitches and gameshark cheaters. Unacceptable that Socom 4 released in the state it was in imo, and i'd let go whoever decided that was the right way to go. It's a shame that others had to lose their jobs who had no say in these discussions like programmers or graphics guys, but you play with fire you get burned. They took a risk by releasing an unfinished, weightless game and expected everyone to be okay with patches months after release. And I won't even get into the single player which is a whole nother discussion. I guess it's Sony's fault for all the lack of features and budgetary stuff but i don't know.

I did like MAG a lot though. It tried a lot of new things and did them very well imo. The problems with it were only stuff like the guns feeling cheap or the lack of great sounds. But it was really solid and I do hope for a sequel.

As someone who's played an unhealthy amount of Socom from 02-04, this is pretty much spot on. They choose to mimic, instead of refine and it looks like its going to cost them.

Sadly, its probably the best thing for the series.

 

[dak1dsk1]

They could sue Sony and regain their losses. PSN was down and hurt their sales badly.