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Bicycle age

J

jakonovski

Member
Today was -15C, clear and snowy, perfect cycling weather really. I do need better insulated shoes tho, my current ones get cold after an hour on metal flat pedals.

Clicky on image for large.

lQvf2wA.jpg
Click to expand...
 
P

Psychotext

Member
If you're on flats then your best bet is going with hiking boots. Sadly there's no-one that makes proper flat MTB shoes for winter use.
 
T

teepo

Member
last night was my first session of the sweetspot training plan and i was completely bonked after just the first interval in the 8min ftp test

now i know there can be a radical difference between your indoor and outdoor ftp but i can perform equally as well on zwift than i can outdoors. i've even set new records in both my 8 and 20 minute averages in using zwift this past december. i probably could've produced even better marks had i gone into those rides with the specific goal of setting new records

though i do find it mentally daunting to use trainerroad which could help explain why i couldn't produce during the 2nd interval and now i'm debating as to whether i should reduce my ftp by 10% per their recommendation or just use the previous ftp record i set in december, on a indoor trainer nonetheless
 
H

HTupolev

Member
Wait, how deep was the 8-min ftp test into the session? It sort of reads like you bonked almost immediately after the start of the exercise, which doesn't seem physically plausible.
 
P

Psychotext

Member
That looks like a psychological failure. I'd calculate your FTP off the first interval and go from there. Unless you went into it fasted (I really doubt this) or had done glycogen depleting exercises earlier in the day... there's no way you bonked on the second interval.

Also, keep your power under control. There's really no reason to be all over the place like you were in the first interval... you could achieve a good amount more if you kept it steady (and handled your breathing properly).

Edit - What are you using for power btw?
 
T

teepo

Member
Psychotext said:
That looks like a psychological failure. I'd calculate your FTP off the first interval and go from there. Unless you went into it fasted (I really doubt this) or had done glycogen depleting exercises earlier in the day... there's no way you bonked on the second interval.

Also, keep your power under control. There's really no reason to be all over the place like you were in the first interval... you could achieve a good amount more if you kept it steady (and handled your breathing properly).

Edit - What are you using for power btw?
Click to expand...

admittedly, i was off the entire day and just didn't "feel it" at any point. if i were to just go off the first interval, it would only be 5 watts better than my best so i'll probably just either scale back a bit or continue using my prior record and see where it goes from there. i'm not too anal about where i set my ftp, especially since the "sweetspot" occurs between 83-97% of one's ftp. i'll still be hitting the spot if i were to run at a slightly lower ftp but i could be bottoming out if i were to run at a slightly higher one.

and save for the first minute where i was adjusting my gears and intensity, my power looks fairly normal? it's worth noting that my power is smooth outside of the two intervals because trainerroad was utilizing the erg mode on my kickr and changes it to slope during the test portions

the graph is showing the power from my kickr but i also have a quarq riken crankarm power meter that i ran concurrently for accuracy. if you think my power was all over the place with my kickr...
 
P

Psychotext

Member
This is normal (not mine, for what it's worth)... what you have is pretty jaggy.

gsDEaXg.png


What's your power smoothing on? I run mine at 3 seconds for pretty much everything other than crazy hard sprint intervals, when I run it at 1 or 2.
 
T

TarpitCarnivore

Member
teepo said:
admittedly, i was off the entire day and just didn't "feel it" at any point. if i were to just go off the first interval, it would only be 5 watts better than my best so i'll probably just either scale back a bit or continue using my prior record and see where it goes from there. i'm not too anal about where i set my ftp, especially since the "sweetspot" occurs between 83-97% of one's ftp. i'll still be hitting the spot if i were to run at a slightly lower ftp but i could be bottoming out if i were to run at a slightly higher one.

and save for the first minute where i was adjusting my gears and intensity, my power looks fairly normal? it's worth noting that my power is smooth outside of the two intervals because trainerroad was utilizing the erg mode on my kickr and changes it to slope during the test portions

the graph is showing the power from my kickr but i also have a quarq riken crankarm power meter that i ran concurrently for accuracy. if you think my power was all over the place with my kickr...
Click to expand...

I thought the Kickr uses slope mode? Which should help account for what you had happen
 
B

broony

Member
Speaking of FTP gains, is it worth targeting a number or is it a personal thing that you can't predict? I started using zwift's training modes at the end of November. Just tested again last week and I was 15 watts higher.

Is it realistic to keep improving at that rate for a while or should I expect it to quickly taper off to whatever my natural limit is?
 
T

TarpitCarnivore

Member
broony said:
Speaking of FTP gains, is it worth targeting a number or is it a personal thing that you can't predict? I started using zwift's training modes at the end of November. Just tested again last week and I was 15 watts higher.

Is it realistic to keep improving at that rate for a while or should I expect it to quickly taper off to whatever my natural limit is?
Click to expand...

Are you using a power meter?

From what I read when those kinds of jumps happen it just means a possible variable changed: you were less fatigued, better understood testing, etc So in other words, it's not uncommon to see jumps. If you keep seeing jumps of 15, 20, 30 or whatever then something else is going on.

However at the end of all of this it's just a number and it's all about consistency.
 
T

teepo

Member
TarpitCarnivore said:
I thought the Kickr uses slope mode? Which should help account for what you had happen
Click to expand...

it automatically changes to slope mode during the testing portions, otherwise it'll be using erg which mechanically smooths.

Psychotext said:
This is normal (not mine, for what it's worth)... what you have is pretty jaggy.

gsDEaXg.png


What's your power smoothing on? I run mine at 3 seconds for pretty much everything other than crazy hard sprint intervals, when I run it at 1 or 2.
Click to expand...

i was under the impression that power smoothing only effects the onscreen data, not the raw data? at least that's how it works on my garmin head unit. my power smoothing is set to zero on trainerroad.

and aren't you using virtual power? the farther away the power meter is from the crank arms, the smoother the results will look. virtual power is extrapolating power based on the flywheel of the trainer, so its results will look smoother regardless of any setting. and since it's not directly reading power, it simply can't be as sensitive as a dedicated power meter so it doesn't take into account the wild fluctuations you see in my graph. not a single person can produce power as smooth as you do (or the person in the chart whom i assume is using virtual power)

for refrence, skim down to the last portion of this article. it explains why despite the two graphs appearing different, the results are the same. and also this graph is useful in illustrating how virtual power smooths data in comparison to raw power data
 
T

teepo

Member
TarpitCarnivore said:
Are you using a power meter?

From what I read when those kinds of jumps happen it just means a possible variable changed: you were less fatigued, better understood testing, etc So in other words, it's not uncommon to see jumps. If you keep seeing jumps of 15, 20, 30 or whatever then something else is going on.

However at the end of all of this it's just a number and it's all about consistency.
Click to expand...

if i remember correctly, broony is fairly new to training so those jumps are to be expected. not only is he ripe for big gains within his first year of training, but he most likely isn't going to properly do an ftp test until his 2nd or 3rd attempt and even then, there is always room for improvements.

i went from a ftp/kg of 2.8 to 3.75 in a span of 8 months and i only properly trained during the 12 weeks i was doing sweetspot training.

one thing i remember reading that became painfully true is that the closer your ftp/kg gets to 4.0, the more marginal your gains become regardless of how hard you train.
 
T

TarpitCarnivore

Member
teepo said:
i went from a ftp/kg of 2.8 to 3.75 in a span of 8 months and i only properly trained during the 12 weeks i was doing sweetspot training.

one thing i remember reading that became painfully true is that the closer your ftp/kg gets to 4.0, the more marginal your gains become regardless of how hard you train.
Click to expand...

Which is why I said it's about consistency above all else. If your power read out is going from 150 to 250 to 300 to 175 while keeping the same pace that's bad. If it's steady at 180 then it's good. You just need a consistent, steady number to work with.

My 180w output is not the same as your 180w output.

Not trying to argue with you, just elaborating my thought more.
 
P

Psychotext

Member
teepo said:
i was under the impression that power smoothing only effects the onscreen data, not the raw data? at least that's how it works on my garmin head unit. my power smoothing is set to zero on trainerroad.
Click to expand...

We're talking about the onscreen data, and yes, it does smooth the input from power meters (and smart trainers, in slope mode, obviously).

Edit - Oh, and I have a crank arm based power meter, but it's a secondary input as it's shit.
 
M

Mascot

Member
You lot might as well be speaking Klingon for all the sense you are making. Whatever happened to riding bicycles outside, you know, for fun..?
 
J

jakonovski

Member
10C?! You guys live in a tropical paradise or something. It's -20C tomorrow, although there'll be a big melt after that and a week of 0ish.

My beard freezes when I bike in this cold.
 
M

Mascot

Member
jakonovski said:
10C?! You guys live in a tropical paradise or something. It's -20C tomorrow, although there'll be a big melt after that and a week of 0ish.

My beard freezes when I bike in this cold.
Click to expand...
It's been a weird winter here. Regular 10°C - 15°C variations between consecutive days.
 
P

Psychotext

Member
Coldest I've cycled in would be minus 6. Really not sure I could handle much less than that, mostly because I'd need to massively step back my power output to deal with being wrapped up in so much.
 
T

teepo

Member
Psychotext said:
We're talking about the onscreen data, and yes, it does smooth the input from power meters (and smart trainers, in slope mode, obviously).

Edit - Oh, and I have a crank arm based power meter, but it's a secondary input as it's shit.
Click to expand...

so wait, you use virtual power as your primary!? the only explanation i can come up with is that you suffer more when running the virtual power setup to compensate for the offset in power because that sounds like something only you'd do. either that or you got a botched kickstarter powermeter
 
B

broony

Member
teepo said:
if i remember correctly, broony is fairly new to training so those jumps are to be expected. not only is he ripe for big gains within his first year of training, but he most likely isn't going to properly do an ftp test until his 2nd or 3rd attempt and even then, there is always room for improvements.

i went from a ftp/kg of 2.8 to 3.75 in a span of 8 months and i only properly trained during the 12 weeks i was doing sweetspot training.

one thing i remember reading that became painfully true is that the closer your ftp/kg gets to 4.0, the more marginal your gains become regardless of how hard you train.
Click to expand...

Yeah I think actually training rather than just going on random rides is helping at the minute. I'm using a tacx vortex smart trainer and zwift. Before I use the trainer I peddle for about 3-5 minutes to warm up the tyre then use the calibration tool to make sure it's adjusted right.

My ftp went from 240 to 255 and since it's changed zwift's workouts have changed accordingly. I've just been doing the 2 x 15 mins ftp intervals and one called the gorby which for me is 5 mins at 275 with 5 mins rest repeated 5 times. These two workouts are really hard, but I can just get to the end while maintaining the target ftp and cadence.

I definitely feel like I'm improving.
 
P

Psychotext

Member
teepo said:
so wait, you use virtual power as your primary!? the only explanation i can come up with is that you suffer more when running the virtual power setup to compensate for the offset in power because that sounds like something only you'd do. either that or you got a botched kickstarter powermeter
Click to expand...

Yes, higher power output workouts do tend to be harder this way.

...and the reason I haven't switched is because I feel consistency is more important right now. I've trained with the same setup (one tyre swap aside) for two years now and I really don't need to be messing with variables whilst training for the biggest event of my life.
 
N

Norfair

Member
So I got a power meter for my previously dumb trainer. I think I've now used it more since hooking that up then I have in the previous three years of ownership.

I tried zwift the other day and couldn't really figure it out. I ended up just turning it off and using the program that came with the meter. It might have had something to do with the fact that the app has the most amazingly small text and buttons I've ever seen on a phone app.
 
T

TarpitCarnivore

Member
Psycho, I think you've mentioned you use TrainerRoad year round. Do you continuously follow a plan or do you pick & choose your workouts? I think I want to try and use it at least once a week through our warmer months b/c the structured workouts help a ton and I don't want to just Zone 2 it.
 
B

broony

Member
Norfair said:
I tried zwift the other day and couldn't really figure it out. I ended up just turning it off and using the program that came with the meter. It might have had something to do with the fact that the app has the most amazingly small text and buttons I've ever seen on a phone app.
Click to expand...

Zwift is a great app but the UI and UX is pretty poor. I am squinting to read a lot of the info and the menus are not intuitive. One thing I hate is that when you end a ride, it just closes the app completely, rather than letting you continue, or faff around in the menus looking at stuff. I also hate the music on start up with no setting to turn it off.
 
P

Psychotext

Member
TarpitCarnivore said:
Psycho, I think you've mentioned you use TrainerRoad year round. Do you continuously follow a plan or do you pick & choose your workouts? I think I want to try and use it at least once a week through our warmer months b/c the structured workouts help a ton and I don't want to just Zone 2 it.
Click to expand...

I follow the plans. Last year I did Traditional Base -> Sustained Power Build -> Cross Country Marathon. This year, because Traditional Base is a complete and utter waste of time for someone that cycles as much as me I'll be doing Sweet Spot Base -> Sustained Power Build -> Cross Country Marathon.

I'm not sure they have anything that would be much use for once a week. The plans with the least time investment are all still three days a week. You could obviously substitute the other two days with outdoor work, but if you wanted decent progression then you'd need to be keeping an eye on your suffer score (training load) so that you can ensure you're upping it by appropriate amounts / taking breaks as required.

You'd probably be best off just using it to focus on your weaknesses. Can't sprint for shit? Do sprint intervals. Can't sustain power? Do threshold work. Can't climb? Raise your front wheel and do VO2 max work or "over unders".

ShapeGSX said:
First time venturing into off-topic and I found my people!
Click to expand...

Hola! Is the Flux the new quiet one that they brought out?

It's funny, given the amount of trainer time I do, I really should get a smart trainer. But precisely nothing about ERG mode appeals to me.
 
T

TarpitCarnivore

Member
Psychotext said:
You'd probably be best off just using it to focus on your weaknesses. Can't sprint for shit? Do sprint intervals. Can't sustain power? Do threshold work. Can't climb? Raise your front wheel and do VO2 max work or "over unders".



Hola! Is the Flux the new quiet one that they brought out?
.
Click to expand...

This was more my main goal of sticking with a structured workout. My legs blow the hell up on climbs so my VO2/Threshold isn't that good. SO I was just going to pick out VO2/Threhold workouts and let them destroy me instead of doing a normal outdoor ride.


Yeah the FLux is their newest
 
S

ShapeGSX

Member
Yeah, my Flux was in the 2nd batch that Clever Training got. They had a 20% off sale that even applied to pre-orders before black friday. $714 was a killer price for a direct drive trainer. And my health insurance company refunds up to $400 for the purchase of exercise equipment. :D

Some people have had some issues with theirs, but mine has been ok so far.
 
M

Mascot

Member
Well, the gammy back and crock foot both feel good enough for the first ride in aaaaaages today, but I've woken up with up a killer sore throat thanks to 'brave' colleagues returning to work after Christmas riddled with flu bugs and viruses.

FUCK this time of year. Roll on, Spring.
 
B

broony

Member
Full of cold. Is it ok to keep training or can that make you worse?

First week of a 12 week plan and I feel like I'm slacking by not riding.
 
T

TarpitCarnivore

Member
broony said:
Full of cold. Is it ok to keep training or can that make you worse?

First week of a 12 week plan and I feel like I'm slacking by not riding.
Click to expand...

This is purely preference. If you have any kind of chest or head cold I would not do anything extraneous. You're only going to make yourself feel worse and possibly ride like complete trash.

This may come across douchey but you're not a pro, missing some rides in week is not going to be the end of the world. Just rest, no need to kill yourself just because you opted to do a training plan.
 
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