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[Genuflections]

The problem is that this mentality of "proportional representation" is what allows the cycle to continue and ensure that white people remain dominant in society and that the playing ground remains uneven.

So your solution is to have all races equally portrayed in media regardless of actual racial demographics? This seems to imply that racial identity should now be the most important factor in hiring practices instead of skill or ability, unless you're also going to argue that minorities are disproportionally more skilled at media jobs than white people. And that race is the most important factor because it's the only way to break the cycle and make the playing ground "even." Just wanting to make sure I understand you correctly here...

 

[Shredderi]

The reasons in UC4 Nadine case are understandable but I think going forward, more publishers and devs should be more actively mindful of this and plan a little further ahead regarding designs.

 

[Diffense]

http://www.behindthevoiceactors.com/video-games/Xenoblade-Chronicles-X/Boz/

Those are the voice actors for Xenoblade X's Boze. Neither of them look much like Boze.
(EDIT: Actually Chris Jai kind of looks like Boze in that picture minus the darker complexion lol)

I think if the performance is appropriate for the character or good enough for the medium and context then it shouldn't matter. That said, from what I listened, I don't think Nadine Ross sounds like an indigenous ("black") South African like Mandela or Miriam Makeba for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wONkMpbl7N8

There could be story reasons for that though.

 

[A Link to the Past]

A shallow pool of talent is definitely an issue, but that has nothing to do with race.

It has everything to do with it if the only ones in it are white

So your solution is to have all races equally portrayed in media regardless of actual racial demographics? This seems to imply that racial identity should now be the most important factor in hiring practices instead of skill or ability, unless you're also going to argue that minorities are disproportionally more skilled at media jobs than white people. And that race is the most important factor because it's the only way to break the cycle and make the playing ground "even." Just wanting to make sure I understand you correctly here...

White people are disproportionately represented. If hiring practices are based on skill, then wouldn't that mean that white people are just better actors?

 

[Skii]

Laura Bailey is one of the best female voice actors in gaming/anime. If she auditions for a role, you hire her regardless of the character's colour/background. She will do justice to that character.

 

[WrenchNinja]

I've noticed this happens a lot with Asian characters too. It was pretty bad in Shadow Warrior.

Speaking of Asian characters, Laura Bailey's Chinese accent in binary domain was terrible

 

[plasmawave]

It's really weird that Naughty Dog keeps doing that. They insist that they're not intentional, but I don't really know of any game of similar size that does this and then claims they're not at least inspired by real people.

FFS not this shit again.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Guys, this whole thing iasn't about this particular case, its about the whole thing.

Nobody minds if a character of colour is occasionally played by a white actor, there are not much after all. However, there should be a larger push for minorities beind played by people of the same ethnicity. THIS is what this is about.

I don't see why it matters though. Making the industry easier for black voice actors doesn't need to mean the majority of black roles are played by blacks. If anything, I think this would be negative as it could end up pigeonholing black actors into only playing black characters (especially problematic if the industry continues making most main characters white, as it might mean relegating them to less important roles). It would also decrease competition for those roles which will inevitably lead to lower quality overall. If we work with the assumption that all races have an equal, average voice acting talent, than simply getting black people a proportional number of jobs should solve the issue, because a talented black person would be just as likely to play a white character as a white actor is to play a black one. (At least proportional to the population split. We'd still probably get more white's playing blacks, but that's because there are more white people in America period)

 

[Dick Justice]

Kratos is white??

i thought he was just an ashy black dude.

Kratos confirmed for Ashy Larry.

 

[Aaronrules380]

It has everything to do with it if the only ones in it are white

Not really, when tons of talented white actors aren't getting jobs because of them either

 

[ldcommando]

I assumed the thread would be about Mafia 3 protagonist.

 

[Slayven]

Just like Hollywood, Videogames as a immense diversity problem behind and in front of the "camera"

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

So your solution is to have all races equally portrayed in media irregardless of actual racial demographics? This seems to imply that racial identity should now be the most important factor in hiring practices instead of skill or ability, unless you're also going to argue that minorities are disproportionally more skilled at media jobs than white people. And that race is the most important factor because it's the only way to break the cycle and make the playing ground "even." Just wanting to make sure I understand you correctly here...

I mean I think that'd be a step up from what we have now. I don't see why aiming toward that and truly making a point to give opportunities to everyone, rather than appealing solely to "the majority" is a bad thing. That's what equality is.

In a perfect world we wouldn't have to worry or care because there would be no systematic and unconscious bias, and people would genuinely be making the unbiased decisions they think are best. We don't live in that world. I'd rather have something try and break the mould than try and uphold a vicious cycle that only keeps the big man held high at the expense of everyone else.

http://www.behindthevoiceactors.com/video-games/Xenoblade-Chronicles-X/Boz/

Those are the voice actors for Xenoblade X's Boze. Neither of them look much like Boze.
(EDIT: Actually Chris Jai kind of looks like Boze in that picture minus the darker complexion lol)

I think if the performance is appropriate for the character or good enough for the medium and context then it shouldn't matter. That said, from what I listened, I don't think Nadine Ross sounds like an indigenous ("black") South African like Mandela or Miriam Makeba for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wONkMpbl7N8

There could be story reasons for that though.

Both VAs for Boze are different cans of worms.

Japan is one of the most homogenous countries in the world from a racial point of view. That's a discussion all to itself.

For Chris Jai Alex, it should be noted that "punching up" (e.g. having non-white actor play white character) tends to be different than "punching down" (white actor in non-white part). Which is part of why I take issue with the "but Phil LaMarr voiced Vamp once" type comments. Because punching down is just a standard part of the cycle. Punching up is breaking the mould and actively challenging it.

Not to mention Boze looks relatively dark or at least racially ambiguous to me so it really doesn't matter so much.

Not really, when tons of talented white actors aren't getting jobs because of them either

The fact that they're white isn't why they're missing out on those jobs.

 

[Sakujou]

Do you believe black voice actors get the same opportunities white voice actors get for roles?

this is such an invisible problem, if it is any.

i dont think that black voice actors are getting screwed over.
if there is an opportunity, they will get their chance.

my major problem is seeing white bald dudes as the major protagonists.

we as consumers and the games as dudebro shooters have to change, before we can tackle other problems.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Not really, when tons of talented white actors aren't getting jobs because of them either

This doesn't make sense as a reply to what I said. Do all white people need to be doing better than all non-white people in the context of video game voice acting for there to be a race issue? Because if that's not what you're arguing, I have no idea what it is. For as much as any one white actor is struggling, you can find a non-white actor struggling too.

 

[Kei-]

No. Why would I be?



Did you miss this:

By that reasoning, shouldn't black South Africans be at the top of the casting list for Nadine? They've faced mistreatment and oppression more recently than black Americans, and have a tougher job getting voice acting roles in the industry as well. There is not only racial bias, but also geographic bias and nationality bias. It's a slippery slope to go down, we'll end up with a very limited pool of choices, and ignore what should be most important, talent.

Not being able to match your actor to the role 100% is not an excuse to match them 0%. There are tons of talented non-white voice actors, and I'll tell you, the reason why so many of the biggest VAs are white is not related to talent.

EDIT: But yeah, it's super, super frustrating watching people react to "equality of roles in voice acting" with incredulity when white people are over-represented and have been for as long as video games have been a thing.

What percentage of the role is the ethnicity of the character? Or for that matter the sex or nationality? Then what percentage of matching is suitable? Is it okay for black American actors to be cast as Africans because at least they're black?

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

So your solution is to have all races equally portrayed in media regardless of actual racial demographics? This seems to imply that racial identity should now be the most important factor in hiring practices instead of skill or ability, unless you're also going to argue that minorities are disproportionally more skilled at media jobs than white people. And that race is the most important factor because it's the only way to break the cycle and make the playing ground "even." Just wanting to make sure I understand you correctly here...

Yes, that's the only way the "cycle" will be changed. While it shouldn't be the most important it should still be important. Your thinking about the world in terms numbers instead of people.

Laura Bailey is one of the best female voice actors in gaming/anime. If she auditions for a role, you hire her regardless of the character's colour/background. She will do justice to that character.

I'm sure she will be fine but that's not the issue here.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

I don't see why it matters though. Making the industry easier for black voice actors doesn't need to mean the majority of black roles are played by blacks. If anything, I think this would be negative as it could end up pigeonholing black actors into only playing black characters (especially problematic if the industry continues making most main characters white, as it might mean relegating them to less important roles). It would also decrease competition for those roles which will inevitably lead to lower quality overall. If we work with the assumption that all races have an equal, average voice acting talent, than simply getting black people a proportional number of jobs should solve the issue, because a talented black person would be just as likely to play a white character as a white actor is to play a black one. (At least proportional to the population split. We'd still probably get more white's playing blacks, but that's because there are more white people in America period)

People who want Black actors to play Black characters is mainly for the authenticity of the performance. So people want two things, authenticity and more chances for POC VA's to have chances at VA work instead of just giving it to a group of people who tbh, aren't hard pressed to find a job.

 

[WordsintheWater]

It's basically the same to me.



I don't know where people are getting this. The article and myself want the few leading people of colour characters to be played by their respective race.

I dunno I feel like a certain race getting represented in a game in a good way on screen is more important then who is voicing that character, but I can see both viewpoints.

All in all I think the person who puts in the best audition should get the role when it comes to something like this though.

 

[A Link to the Past]

By that reasoning, shouldn't black South Africans be at the top of the casting list for Nadine? They've faced mistreatment and oppression more recently than black Americans, and have a tougher job getting voice acting roles in the industry as well. There is not only racial bias, but also geographic bias and nationality bias. It's a slippery slope to go down, we'll end up with a very limited pool of choices, and ignore what should be most important, talent.

Not being able to match your actor to the role 100% is not an excuse to match them 0%. There are tons of talented non-white voice actors, and I'll tell you, the reason why so many of the biggest VAs are white is not related to talent.

EDIT: But yeah, it's super, super frustrating watching people react to "equality of roles in voice acting" with incredulity when white people are over-represented and have been for as long as video games have been a thing.

 

[Aaronrules380]

This doesn't make sense as a reply to what I said. Do all white people need to be doing better than all non-white people in the context of video game voice acting for there to be a race issue? Because if that's not what you're arguing, I have no idea what it is. For as much as any one white actor is struggling, you can find a non-white actor struggling too.

My point was that I don't think this really affects voice acting quality. You can argue make a more equal and open field, but that has nothing to do with quality and you shouldn't try to shoehorn in quality issues if you can't provide evidence that those exist

 

[Genuflections]

White people are disproportionately represented. If hiring practices are based on skill, then wouldn't that mean that white people are just better actors?

I didn't say current hiring practices are based on skill. My belief is that, if they were, all races would likely be represented proportionally. However, NinjaCoachZ seems to disagree, saying that a belief in equal representation is why the cycle of discrimination continues.

 

[hawk2025]

Yes, that's the only way the "cycle" will be changed. While it shouldn't be the most important it should still be important. Your thinking about the world in terms numbers instead of people.

I'm sure she will be fine but that's not the issue here.

Well, it is the issue here. Your previous paragraph said exactly that.

You say someone is thinking of this in terms of numbers instead of people and immediately dismiss a person right smack in the center of the discussion.

 

[A Link to the Past]

My point was that I don't think this really affects voice acting quality. You can argue make a more equal and open field, but that has nothing to do with quality and you shouldn't try to shoehorn in quality issues if you can't provide evidence that those exist

By having proper representation of people with different voices, different experiences, you get a more varied, more interesting stable of quality acting, as well as getting perspective from the actors on what a character of that type would or would not say, or how they would say it, or whatever. There is not a guarantee that a black actress will just know how a black role that they are playing would feel or act, but it's nice to have better perspective and a better overall range.

 

[Aaronrules380]

People who want Black actors to play Black characters is mainly for the authenticity of the performance. So people want two things, authenticity and more chances for POC VA's to have chances at VA work instead of just giving it to a group of people who tbh, aren't hard pressed to find a job.

People keep saying authenticity, but would you be able to tell the race of a voice actor with no knowledge of the actor and only the voice? Because authenticity is worthless if it doesn't actually add to the quality of the performance IMO

And I think the problem is that in today's climate, that'd also mean a lot of talented black voice actors get pigeonholed into black roles, who are unfortunately usually smaller parts than many white characters in the same game. So while you might get more black people playing roles, they'd be stuck competing over minor roles

 

[Kinyou]

Guys, this whole thing iasn't about this particular case, its about the whole thing.

Nobody minds if a character of colour is occasionally played by a white actor, there are not much after all. However, there should be a larger push for minorities beind played by people of the same ethnicity. THIS is what this is about.

Are there numbers for how often this happens? There are a few examples in the article, but nothing really substantial

 

[Vibranium]

I may have not been a big fan of the game, but it was nice that Capcom actually cast a black actress and actor for Sheva and Josh in RE5. Pretty surprising coming from a company that loves to replace their VAs.

 

[fernoca]

The problem with voice acting is that it's usually done months if not years ahead. So many things can change including characters.

There's no way in many cases to have parity with voice acting and how a character looks outside of using the actors as reference too.

So a white actor can voice a character and if the artists find that voice to fit better on a character that is black or asian or of hispanic origin, they will change it.

In most cases it has nothing to do with skin color. Many call for voice actors don't mention "looking for white males/females" but usually their ability and talents to not only been able to do said work while standing, do different tones and accents but even willing to do motion capture among other things.

 

[Genuflections]

Yes, that's the only way the "cycle" will be changed. While it shouldn't be the most important it should still be important. Your thinking about the world in terms numbers instead of people.

Numbers are exactly how we should approach the issue, but I'll assume we agree to disagree here.

 

[Spaghetti]

This is such a complicated issue, as evidenced by Dave Fennoy and Phil LaMarr's quotes on the matter. Even as black voice actors who have strong opinions on the matter, they're still conflicted because it's such a huge grey area with wider reaching implications for the industry.

When asked whether black characters should always be voiced by black voice actors, both actors had mixed feelings. Fennoy said that on one hand, he would prefer black actors to play black characters “so black actors are able to work” and because "there is a history of whites in blackface doing degrading imitations of black people and in fact all too often we have continued the practice.” On the other hand, Fennoy said he knows white actors who can portray a black character authentically. “Lord knows I have played black, white, Latin, Asian, Eastern European, and hundreds of creatures with hundreds of accents both authentic and fabricated,” he added.

LaMarr also felt conflicted about his answer. “From an artistic perspective I would love it if race didn't have to be a factor, but from a "paying-my-rent" perspective, I'm glad it does,” he said. “If I have to compete for a Black male role with every Black male voice actor AND every white male voice actor, my chance of getting a job decreases immensely,” he said.

The essence of voice acting is performing for a character that isn't you in almost any respect, for the most part anyway. That needs to be preserved or you risk creating a house of cards where actors are gradually pigeon-holed and type-cast for voice roles based on their appearance. In an effort to get more minorities in minority roles you could accidentally foster the wrong kind of behaviour when it comes to casting.

But where's the root of the issue? Lack of colour-blind casting? Not enough diversity in the talent pool? Harder for minorities to get established in the industry? Probably all of these and many more. The issue isn't voice actors acting though.

I think the article is too reductive in its implications of casting minorities in minority roles being the magic bullet, and I'm not sure making Uncharted 4 the poster boy for the problems in the voice acting industry is helpful either. The acting/voice acting industry in LA and beyond probably needs overhaul from top to bottom with a total influx of new blood, but that's gradual and there's no one thing any casting director can do to speed up the process.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

I dunno I feel like a certain race getting represented in a game in a good way on screen is more important then who is voicing that character, but I can see both viewpoints.

All in all I think the person who puts in the best audition should get the role when it comes to something like this though.

I wish that was possible or true at all

Well, it is the issue here. Your previous paragraph said exactly that.

You say someone is thinking of this in terms of numbers instead of people and immediately dismiss a person right smack in the center of the discussion.

Her acting abitily was never the issue. The issue is another white voice actor playing a person of color.

 

[Aaronrules380]

By having proper representation of people with different voices, different experiences, you get a more varied, more interesting stable of quality acting, as well as getting perspective from the actors on what a character of that type would or would not say, or how they would say it, or whatever. There is not a guarantee that a black actress will just know how a black role that they are playing would feel or act, but it's nice to have better perspective and a better overall range.

And that's fair. But that can be more easily fixed by improved hiring processes that obscure the names and races of the participants to the people making hiring decisions. If we assume talent and skill are equal among every race, than we'll end up with fair representation without having to shoehorn black people into black roles or shit like that

 

[A Link to the Past]

And that's fair. But that can be more easily fixed by improved hiring processes that obscure the names and races of the participants to the people making hiring decisions. If we assume talent and skill are equal among every race, than we'll end up with fair representation without having to shoehorn black people into black roles or shit like that

It's not shoehorning to tell the industry to stop prioritizing white actors. If they struggle to hire a diverse cast of actors without there being a blind application, then maybe burger-flipping is a better job for them?

 

[Neiteio]

And that's fair. But that can be more easily fixed by improved hiring processes that obscure the names and races of the participants to the people making hiring decisions. If we assume talent and skill are equal among every race, than we'll end up with fair representation without having to shoehorn black people into black roles or shit like that

Yep, that's what I suggested earlier. Since no one can prove whether a person is consciously choosing to hire or not hire based on race, the only thing we can do is change the hiring process so it's truly blind, and see if that makes a difference.

For voice acting, this would involve blacking out the name of the actor or actress on their résumé, and having the casting director choose based purely on voice samples, with no sight of the actor or actress who performed them.

It'd be an interesting experiment.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

Very impressive statement by Bailey.
I'm glad the issue is being talked about though, it's well worth discussing in my book.

 

[Aaronrules380]

It's not shoehorning to tell the industry to stop prioritizing white actors. If they struggle to hire a diverse cast of actors without there being a blind application, then maybe burger-flipping is a better job for them?

Again, I think there are better ways to accomplish that with less risks involved for all parties. Just improving the hiring process so that the people who decide on what VAs to higher know nothing about them except for a VA sample (which would be pretty easy to set up) would eliminate any ability racial bias on the part of the interviewers. How can you prioritize White VAs in such a situation where you have no idea of a person's race until they're hired?

 

[A Link to the Past]

Again, I think there are better ways to accomplish that with less risks involved for all parties. Just improving the hiring process so that the people who decide on what VAs to higher know nothing about them except for a VA sample (which would be pretty easy to set up) would eliminate any ability racial bias on the part of the interviewers. How can you prioritize White VAs in such a situation where you have no idea of a person's race until they're hired?

The point is that it shouldn't have to come to that.

 

[Neiteio]

The point is that it shouldn't have to come to that.

A blind audition chooses someone based on talent, without the possibility of bias.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

People keep saying authenticity, but would you be able to tell the race of a voice actor with no knowledge of the actor and only the voice? Because authenticity is worthless if it doesn't actually add to the quality of the performance IMO

And I think the problem is that in today's climate, that'd also mean a lot of talented black voice actors get pigeonholed into black roles, who are unfortunately usually smaller parts than many white characters in the same game. So while you might get more black people playing roles, they'd be stuck competing over minor roles

Yes.....

And I think that at least being pigeon-held is less of a problem than not having roles at all dude. Baby steps. Not full on revolution.

 

[Cheerilee]

The microphone is blind. Cree Summer got her start 30 years ago playing a blonde-haired blue-eyed little girl (Penny Gadget), and in the videogame world she more recently played a blonde-haired blue-eyed little boy in Final Fantasy X.

Voice acting jobs should go to the person with the most appropriate voice, full stop. Any director who casts voices based on skin color deserves a kick in the ass (although it goes without saying that doing it because you're a racist is significantly worse than doing it because you're "anti-racist").


If black people want jobs where they can be invisible, by all means go try out for voice acting. But nobody sets out with voice acting as their goal, because voice acting usually sits beside TV commercials as the home of failed "real" actors.

Heck, Hollywood is disproportionately gay. Does it matter that all these gay people are playing straight people? Nope, because their sexuality has nothing to do with their role.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Perhaps "fame" might not be the right word, but a lot of the VO industry comes down to connections. People like Laura Bailey, Travis Willingham, and Troy Baker (and of course people like Nolan North and Robin Atkin Downes) have worked on so many games with so many directors and companies, and are versatile enough that I'm sure most people who are involved in that side of production are familiar with her and regard her as a reliable talent. It's easy for them to just ring her up and have her in for a gig of any sort, basically.

Obviously she's more well connected than most other voice actors. But I just don't think that ND really pays a lot of attention to that. Since this is a thread about giving black actors a chance to play black roles, three of the four major roles that were portrayed by black actors in TLoU + Left Behind were portrayed by actors that had never worked in games before. Merle Dandridge was the only one that had previously voicework, and that was obviously for Alyx. So, I think that speaks to my point about how they don't necessarily care about fame.

 

[Aaronrules380]

The point is that it shouldn't have to come to that.

Why is that such a big deal? I honestly think it's a lot less unfair, and removes the potential harm that saying all black roles should be filled by black people does (Because unless you also simultaneously fix the issue of black and other minority characters tending to be side characters and less important, it could also negatively affect a black actor's ability to get a main role in a game with a black side character). And honestly, blind auditions should be the norm because they put the emphasis on skill and quality over all extraneous factors.

 

[Zomba13]

Her acting abitily was never the issue. The issue is another white voice actor playing a person of color.

Really though, the issue is ND made a character black after already casting her with a white person. If Nadine was a white character then it wouldn't matter. When the casting happened Nadine had no skin colour she was just from South Africa. ND decided after the lines were recorded to make her black. This isn't a white person stealing a job from a black woman or the industry casting white people as black people, it's developers not properly planning out their characters and deciding on skin colour on a whim not thinking of the effects. So they either fire her and scrap all the lines she's done and re-record everything with a new actress or they keep her as the voice for this now black woman. Or they decide to turn Nadine white which will then get a different kind of outrage.

And yeah, VA is usually recorded well in advance of the game being complete and characters often go through some radical redesigns but I really think that things like ethnicity should be locked down when casting actors. If it's something you are fluid on, the character could be whatever ethnicity and it doesn't affect the story one way or the other, then just have them be whatever ethnicity the VA is.

 

[L Thammy]

It's not shoehorning to tell the industry to stop prioritizing white actors. If they struggle to hire a diverse cast of actors without there being a blind application, then maybe burger-flipping is a better job for them?

I don't see any negative to improving the hiring process where it can be approved. Maybe the blind application would be more expensive, but it should also have better results because it's only the voice that's being evaluated.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Yes.....

And I think that at least being pigeon-held is less of a problem than not having roles at all dude. Baby steps. Not full on revolution.

Can you prove it? If you can get a study that shows audiences as a whole can distinguish that stuff, it's one thing. I have a hard time trusting personal experience from anyone here because they likely know the voice actor's race beforehand, and it's easy to find issues when you're looking for them, even if they don't exist

 

[dlauv]

A lot of times I'll hear a black character in a game and think that they're voiced by a white man only to be proven wrong on imdb. I think it happened like 6 times last year.

Anyway, on topic, just don't be stupid. Like, racial issues are out in the open more than they have been in a long time. Many are "woke." From an artistic perspective, I agree with Phil LaMarr. But from a business and ethical standpoint, in tyool2016, don't do it! You get caught, and it turns into a fiasco. You're not going to change minds, and I'm not even sure it's good of you to try right now.

 

[GrayFoxPL]

I was kind of put off when Gray Fox didn't actually turn out to be black.

I didn't know he was black until I looked him up. Just thought: "what an awesome fucking voice!".

 

[Aaronrules380]

Yes.....

And I think that at least being pigeon-held is less of a problem than not having roles at all dude. Baby steps. Not full on revolution.

It also sets a precedent that makes it harder to change in the future. It might help some black voice actors short term (although there are already a few prolific black voice actors, and given the limited number of black roles, they'd probably go to them anyways), but long term it'd put them in a worse position than finding ways to improve the general hiring process imo

 

[prwxv3]

Yes.....

And I think that at least being pigeon-held is less of a problem than not having roles at all dude. Baby steps. Not full on revolution.

I would like proof for this. You can not generally tell the difference between a black voice and white voice.

 

[Genuflections]

Yep, that's what I suggested earlier. Since no one can prove whether a person is consciously choosing to hire or not hire based on race, the only thing we can do is change the hiring process so it's truly blind, and see if that makes a difference.

For voice acting, this would involve blacking out the name of the actor or actress on their résumé, and having the casting director choose based purely on voice samples, with no sight of the actor or actress who performed them.

It'd be an interesting experiment.

Blind auditions are one great step forward that can be made. It's worked for orchestras and apparently even software developers.