Probably some sort of client side predictions to make movements smoother to mitigate some latency effects.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Blizzard sues Overwatch "cheat" maker for copyright infringement
- Thread starter Spring Drive
- Start date
Probably some sort of client side predictions to make movements smoother to mitigate some latency effects.
I guess the client getting other players positions is needed for Widowmakers ulti.
Don't know why the client would need the non visible players health status...
MarineMountie
Member
If Blizzard could somehow win this, it would help deter from future cheating, I would hope.
I don't think "Copyright Infringement" is the way to go, though. I mean, these cheaters are intentionally fucking up your product. There has to be something better to go after them for than copyright infringement.
Anyway, fuck'em. Go Blizzard.
I don't think "Copyright Infringement" is the way to go, though. I mean, these cheaters are intentionally fucking up your product. There has to be something better to go after them for than copyright infringement.
Anyway, fuck'em. Go Blizzard.
I just checked what her ultimate does. Its like a wallhack for your team?
Don't agree with your assessment. Let's summarize (simplified) what needs to happen and what not.
- Server tells client: ultimate is not on cooldown and not currently activated.
- Client has no knowledge of the location of non detected/visible opponent players.
- Player (client) activates ultimate: Server marks every opponent red for N seconds for every allied player.
- Ultimate is done; Server tells client ultimate is on cooldown and removes the marks on the opponent players for everyone in the Players team.
Copyright is exactly what protects them from people modifying their code and distributing those modifications to other people.
They send all the player data constantly because their servers can't handle doing complicated line of sight checks (much more so than DOTA) and view prediction. There are no other legitimate reasons I can think of.
If we had the ability to host our own servers then it would not be a problem in that regard because we're not hosting the entire worlds population on it so it's not expensive.
If we had the ability to host our own servers then it would not be a problem in that regard because we're not hosting the entire worlds population on it so it's not expensive.
KarneeKarnay
Member
True, but that isn't the company's fault. They aren't putting a gun to your head and telling you to cheat. No one who uses these cheats blames the company they got them from and even if they do, no one forced them to buy.
There are things Blizzard can do and if anyone has the money to setup a system to deal with cheaters, Blizzard can. They shouldn't be coming down on the company, they should work on the real cause.
They made it easy to cheat in.. This is not a controversial stand point. Since the beginning of time, no matter how simple and easy the game is, some people will always cheat. If you want that to stop happening, you setup the system to make it difficult to cheat in, like every other sport.
Hell CS:GO has that observe system and there's even been talk that LoL might implement some sort of match replay to catch cheaters.
valkillmore
Member
Cannot stand cheaters and I hope more companies take as agressive a stand against them as Blizzards has w Overwatch.
Most mods don't actively damage the gameplay experience for other players and delude the value of the game itself. If Blizzard can demonstrate this I think they'll win and I highly doubt this claim can be demonstrated on any other legitimate mod.
Sadly nothing will really come out of this because the cheating company is in Germany (thanks a lot for ruining online games Germany). The reason glider got shut down was because glider was US based. The fact that they already tried to go after this same company quite a few times in Germany and failed so far gives me no hope that they'll ever shut them down. Also blizzard can't drain them financially because they keep getting ordered to pay the companies legal fees.
All blizzard can do is make sure that they are quick with bans.
All blizzard can do is make sure that they are quick with bans.
Spring Drive
Banned
Yes
TheHellsLord
Member
There isn't really a perfect solution for this whole mess. Some stuff can be prevented by changing the way the server and client handle stuff - sure - but at quite a cost in terms in responsiveness (client side prediction is pretty much necessary to make such games feel fluid and requires at least player positions to be transmitted which allows wallhacks). When it comes to stuff like hit detection that should be left to the server for obvious reasons and usually is.
You can then try to check the host system if anything is there that could assist players in some way. The question is: how far do you take it? Check which processes are running? Do checksums on system libraries? Scan the whole disk? (where does this turn into a privacy concern?).
You can try to detect and prevent tampering with game binaries and running processes to circumvent modification. Therefore stuff like Denuvo is not only preventing modding, removal of DRM but to a certain degree also the usage of certain kinds of cheating software. Again this is not a popular measure.
Similarily it is currently not possible to inject stuff into the sandboxed model that the Universal Windows Platform (Windows Store) uses. This has been discussed at length on NeoGAF. Again: not a popular measure but one that could takle the issue to some degree as the OS is in a far better position to enforce these things then a game itself.
Suing the people providing cheating software (hardware?). Copyright law is basically the only thing they can use - as it's the only thing protecting software in the end. And at least they can make a case that way - although in the view of many (seemingly including several german courts) not a very convincing one.
You can then try to check the host system if anything is there that could assist players in some way. The question is: how far do you take it? Check which processes are running? Do checksums on system libraries? Scan the whole disk? (where does this turn into a privacy concern?).
You can try to detect and prevent tampering with game binaries and running processes to circumvent modification. Therefore stuff like Denuvo is not only preventing modding, removal of DRM but to a certain degree also the usage of certain kinds of cheating software. Again this is not a popular measure.
Similarily it is currently not possible to inject stuff into the sandboxed model that the Universal Windows Platform (Windows Store) uses. This has been discussed at length on NeoGAF. Again: not a popular measure but one that could takle the issue to some degree as the OS is in a far better position to enforce these things then a game itself.
Suing the people providing cheating software (hardware?). Copyright law is basically the only thing they can use - as it's the only thing protecting software in the end. And at least they can make a case that way - although in the view of many (seemingly including several german courts) not a very convincing one.
adversarial
Member
Damn, they lost the case with the HoS bot? Interesting, I wonder why they would take legal action if they aren't going to win / do not have jurisdiction?
Spring Drive
Banned
The answer is to stream the whole video
Felix Lighter
Member
Hmmmmm... I want them to be able to crush these kinds of cheat devs but this copyright infringement legal method has the very real potential to have a chilling effect on legitimate, non-cheating mods in other games. I want to see the cheaters purged and I want to see these businesses eradicated as much as anyone but this method has kind of scary consequences beyond cheating.
You're right, there's probably no need to do it on the client side. I also thought of Hanzos "pulse" which affects just a certain area to detect enemy players. I guess in the end they get every player position just to reduce the server load on those two scenarios and let the client do the visibilty computation.
The legal argument Blizzard is making here is shady as hell and I hope they lose. The only way this works out is if the cheater was distributing parts of Overwatch's code (which I highly doubt) or if they're just banking on the cheaters not wanting to take it to court (which basically amounts to legal bullying).
Whether a mod hurts other players or not has no bearing it whether it's copyright infringment,
Whether a mod hurts other players or not has no bearing it whether it's copyright infringment,
Yeah, but no one cares - a mod can make a game better and still be copyright infringement. I think that as much as I hate online cheaters, I don't like the way Blizzard is handling this.
Nope, have played over 600 games and haven't ran into a single cheater (that I've noticed).
Dota2 hacks exist and the reason your client needs to know where everyone is at all times is because the server doesn't know what you're going to do, so everything needs to be running in the client so say if you turn a corner and there's an enemy their you're client will already have the enemy rendered there, you don't need to wait for your client to tell the server your position and for the server to respond back to your client telling it there's an enemy there. It's especially important for a game like Overwatch where characters can teleport or move around the map quickly.
Gentleman Jack
Member
I invite people confused by the copyright infingement claim to examine the history of Blizzard suing Glider into non-existence. It's just the first step in trying to destroy their business.
I know of Dota 2 "hacks" that cancel the attack for PA so every attack is a critical, or auto detonate for Techies and Mana/Cooldown bars for enemy heroes. This is all stuff the client knows when he sees the opponent, which makes sense.
I do not know of any "map hacks".
---
I understand that first person games are harder to do. You have a not fixed distance a player can see and not visible opponents can/will generate sounds (footsteps/weapons).
This still doesn't explain why the client needs to be aware of health (and positions across the map).
If players are in close proximity to each other, things get more complicated, I agree.
Weltall Zero
Member
I was going to post that I was ambivalent about this, but then I saw all the slippery slope arguments like "modding will be next" and realized how utterly silly it is. This case is pretty clear cut, primarily because 1) they are selling the cheat, and 2) it's easily provable that it worsens the play experience for other players. Unless anyone here is a lawyer and can break down things for us, I see no reason to think Blizzard winning would give more ground to cases against mods in general (which make little sense to sue to begin with).
2.5) They are suing on basis of copyright infringement, which is just wrong.
4) They lost two times already against the same company.
5) ???
6) Profit!
They are probably trying to defeat them with legal bills.
Chainsawkitten
Member
Those 2 things certainly make an ethical difference, but I'm not convinced there's any legal difference (in terms of copyright infringement, perhaps other laws).
finalflame
Member
Good. Hope Blizzard either wins or drowns them in legal bills. These scum need to be wiped off the face of the planet.
(UE4 MP dev here. Indie, but yeah.)
It completely does (For wallhacks and enemy health visualization)
Character position is server-broadcasted, and so is character health.
Client movement prediction is not a problem, just an offset in the visualization check.
An issue could be present if the dedicated server is not actually loading all visualization-blocking geometry, and just collisional shapes.
Aimbots are much harder, admittedly, and perhaps they're using wallhacks as honeypots, but it's possible (if hard) to prevent wallhacking in most cases.
Phantom bones and dynamic bone renaming could prevent the driver-level hack, but nothing is stopping OCR or other advanced methods.
Enemy healthbars \ cooldowns, there's just no excuse. Non-owning clients shouldn't have that information, period.
In most cases these aimbots, wallhacks, and more are not simply pulling the data from the client, which itself has the location of every player. The most common case is it is pulling the data from the graphics renderer, which renders the entire map and all the player models at all times. When you round a corner your graphics card does not stop rendering enemies on the other side of the wall.
Beyond that the client itself has to know the locations of all the players. When Pharah shoots a blind rocket into the hallway you are in your client has to know that she was over there, know that she fired her rocket, and display it coming in to gib you.
All that said you can encrypt parts of the data, which Blizzard has done, but hack makers will eventually try to crack it, forcing Blizzard to update it, then they will try to crack it again. It is a neverending cycle and so many other developers have NOT put in effort and resources equal to what these hack makers are doing. So many PC games, even high profile ones, have shipped with much of its game content unencrypted and accessible, either by professional hack makers, or even by cheatengine and other programs. Max Payne 3 and The Division are two examples of high profile, triple A releases on PC that were embarrassingly naive about their encryption.
styl3s
Member
I have well over 200 hours between closed beta, open beta and retail and have yet to come across a hacker.
Unless the hacker was really, really, really bad.
- Frustum culling
- Why does the client needs to know that? The server can tell that the client.
The common macros for Widow (not working anymore?), Genji, Soldier, and many more have been around since at least open beta and they are well documented and widely used. Some of these macros aren't even violating the TOS.
Not defending the usage of game-breaking macros but that is something Blizzard has to fix on their side if they really don't want people to use them they have to alter the abilities (like Widowmakers zoom delay). So far they act against some minor, ridiculously expensive "cheat provider", ignoring the inherent problems with their own game. People are using these macros and exhausting the limits of the game's lag compensation with shady packet manipulating tools while Blizzard states "they are favoring the shooter and the netcode is fine". At this rate it quickly turns into playing the system instead of playing the game. Denying a few hundred suckers their wallhacks or aimbots is not going to fix the game.
Movalpolos
Banned
Cheating is an overblown issue on PC though right?
Whats wrong with just banning them?
As others have said, if Blizzard wins, it will only be bad for PC gamers in the future.
Whats wrong with just banning them?
As others have said, if Blizzard wins, it will only be bad for PC gamers in the future.
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
Lol, that's not how it works in Germany. They can simply ignore the US trial, it's of no consequence. And if they sue here lawyers won't decide who wins. They don't even need a lawyer. Also they are a GmbH, which means they only have to pay for 25.000 in an absolute worst case scenario. Anything above that and they will simply shut down the company and start a new one.
#sorrynotsorry
Member
This is incorrect. If Blizzard wins they can take that judgment to Germany. Then they can collect on it even if the claim wouldn't stand in German law. There are treaties for this.
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
Because packets are lost all the time. Unless you like seeing other players appear and disappear randomly.
Felix Lighter
Member
Yeah, I have yet to feel I was up against a cheater. Blizzard is just taking cheating extremely seriously out of the gate, which is great, this particular tactic, not great. Perm bans on first offense, all for that though. Just need to be confident that false positives are extremely rare and a reasonable appeal process for any false positives that slip through the cracks.
Is this why I was getting slaughter last night? I know I suck but I couldn't win any of my matches for close to 30mins straight, and that's with me leaving the matches after it ended, so that I could get matched with some other different players.
Then again, must have just been me doing terrible
Then again, must have just been me doing terrible
Crimsonclaw111
Member
Who is the edgelord who wrote those Es backwards.
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
Actually no. German laws state that they could take a win in the US and enforce it if under German law the correct court was used (is not, German law dictates that business done online is subject to where the servers are located) and if that is the case there can not be a previous German court that ruled differently in a similar case. Which they did, EULA's are not enforceable (because they are not made available before the purchase). So there is nothing that will come out of this.
How can a hack be copyright violation? There's no TOS if you don't have the game and no TOS to agree to.
It's a TOS violation to use the hack in the game, but it does not extends to a individual who's never agreed to one in the first place.
I can see them removing the character off the hack though.
It's a TOS violation to use the hack in the game, but it does not extends to a individual who's never agreed to one in the first place.
I can see them removing the character off the hack though.
That's really not a problem.
The server moves the character all the time, updating velocity and position, and the client continues to move along the velocity until a new position\velocity comes from the server.