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Blog: A Lawyer Revisits Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney

Corgi

Banned
http://tay.kotaku.com/a-lawyer-revisits-phoenix-wright-ace-attorney-1694116058/+andrasneltz

Requiring a trial verdict within three days of arrest is absolutely ridiculous. I feel like this is a violation of the kind of stuff we figured out a thousand years ago with the Magna Carta. Even the most ardent, hardened, fear-pandering "tough on crime" politician would never attempt to impose this kind of rule, no matter how overburdened the courts are. Actually, the "tough on crime" crowd would probably hate this rule too. How can you prepare a case overnight for trial the next day? Wouldn't you want to give the prosecutor a little bit more time to ensure he has what he needs to secure a conviction? I get that the objective behind the rule is to maximize courtroom efficiency, but in no universe would efficiency be so prioritized over the basic mechanisms in place to help make sure you have the right culprit.

Almost every other inaccuracy with real courtroom procedures flows from the three-day rule. Defendants apparently have no right to bail, probably because they'll know their fate within three short days anyway. The rules of evidence are nearly non-existent, with hearsay restrictions and chain of custody requirements nowhere to be seen. There are no pre-trial motions, like a motion to suppress evidence or a motion to dismiss. There is no formal discovery - the standard process by which attorneys get information about a case in preparation for trial. Instead, Ace Attorney's bumbling law enforcement gathers evidence haphazardly, attorneys are forced to visit crime scenes themselves to build their cases, witnesses are explicitly told not to talk to the defense, and basic forensic testing like autopsies and DNA analysis is frequently unfinished at the time of trial. Most of this stuff could actually get a prosecutor fired in the real world, but in Ace Attorney, no one bats an eye.

I hate to say it, but some of the pathos and gravitas might have been lost to me during my revisit playthrough. Sometimes in a sticky situation during a case, I shook my head and said to myself, "None of this crap would have happened if you all simply did Basic Standard Logical Legal Thing XYZ."

I know what you're thinking: "It's a game! That's just a part of the game's world!" And yes, that's true. All the stuff I listed above wouldn't make it into a lawyer game, because that stuff is boring. Legal fiction is dominated by the investigation phase because that's what is interesting, not a bunch of jargon-filled legal technicalities that only lawyers understand. A game where you sit through a three-hour deposition or spend an entire day doing legal research would be accurate, but it wouldn't be fun. Falsification of evidence, new and unforeseen details suddenly changing an entire case in the middle of trial, a witness confessing as the real murderer on the stand... that's the fun stuff. It's juicy and scandalous and makes for great stories. That's what people want out of a game like this.
Nice long read.
Always fun to talk with people in the profession of a game about said game. Had good talks with my med school friends about Trauma Center series :p

That ending is fantastic.

Phoenix is My Spirit Animal

Maybe it's pure coincidence. Like, maybe they just wrote him that way and it just happened to be 100% perfect. Maybe it's an unintentional side effect of the localization. I don't know. But I have maybe never related to a video game character more than I related to Phoenix during my replay of Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney.

Phoenix has absolutely no idea what he's doing. He's just graduated law school. He's completely broke. He's inexperienced. He's outmatched by the prosecution, who has all the information and power and resources. He needs his boss to back him up during trial. He bluffs and fumbles through each case, just barely winning by the skin of his teeth.

He's even got a so-called "useless" undergraduate major - Art - thus incorporating a negative stereotype of today's young lawyers that's actually hilariously true if you look closely enough. I'm guilty as charged myself. That's pretty topical of you, Capcom.

You see, doctors, another group of people with a lot of professional responsibility and educational demands like lawyers, have a period of employment called "residency" after they graduate medical school. It's basically an extension of your education. Doctors recognize that when you've just graduated, you're not actually ready to treat patients with no oversight. There's too much you need to know that you can only learn through experience. So, even though you have a degree and you're a doctor, there's another 3-6 years of low-paid work that's essentially an extension of your education. Once you're done with that, you're more prepared to be a fully-fledged doctor, working and helping clients independently.

Lawyers don't get that. There isn't a formalized method for us to pick a specialization and slowly build experience in the same the way new doctors get to with their residency programs. Once we graduate and pass the bar exam, nothing is technically stopping us from accepting complex high-profile cases that are normally handled by a millionaire who graduated from Harvard in the 1970's. There's no extended education for us. We're booted out the door and told to be free. Go, young lawyers. Try cases, sue people, have fun. Oh... you don't know what you're doing? Better go find a mentor to help teach you the ropes. (And Phoenix's case, he found a mentor with fantastic cleavage. Bonus.)

Phoenix is that guy who just got booted out the door to fend for himself. I love Phoenix. I mean, I loved him when I first played PWAA, but I love him even more now as a young lawyer myself. He screws things up, gets yelled at by the judge, and talked down to by the prosecutor... but he doesn't fall victim to cynicism, and he still makes it out on top. Even if its courtroom procedures are bunk, PWAA does an amazing job communicating what it's like to be a ramen-eating, exhausted, exasperated young lawyer. Phoenix's realism helps me stay grounded through the more unbelievable trial developments, bringing the story back to the point where I can get invested in what will happen to him and his client.

Worth reading the whole thing when ya have time. I needa replay the games again... got halfway through the 2nd game when the 3ds one came out and got distracted by other stuff.
 

Puflwiz

Banned
Phoenix Wright not realistic? Well I never!

I do appreciate though how he connected to Phoenix, its kinda sweet in a weird way.
I'll have to read the full thing later when I'm not at work.
 

Corgi

Banned
Phoenix Wright not realistic? Well I never!

I do appreciate though how he connected to Phoenix, its kinda sweet in a weird way.

It's surprising how few people know about that though, who watches CSPAN?

Also if you are a good boy and also one of the weird 'outliers' and never get called for jury duty.... you probably don't see much court room action outside of tv.
 
(And Phoenix's case, he found a mentor with fantastic cleavage. Bonus.)

Too bad she died after the first case. But she now inhabits the bodies of younger girls to seduce an old man who throws seeds at you. Long live Mia Fey.
 

Dio

Banned
I like how he bothered to look up the Japanese legal system and found out that a lot of his complaints regarding accuracy were actually covered by the fact that it was based on Japanese courts.
 

Brandon F

Well congratulations! You got yourself caught!
Most of that article is made up of similar thoughts I had the first time I touched the series years ago. The logic that governs the rules for trial is just outrageously absurd, (strict timeframe limits on prep, evidence, and lack of shared information, etc...) but it also makes the ensuing drama more charming and hilarious. Almost parody-like to the greatest extreme.
 
Probably helps that PW isn't based off of western judicial systems.

Isn't PW an allegory for Japan's broken justice system?
 
In the beginning of Ace Attorney they say that this takes place in the future where the law has changed. I'm a law student as well and I didn't get as incensed as this guy did about it. Yeah no shit it's unrealistic. There are a lot more movies/tv shows concerning the law that are almost just as unrealistic as Phoenix without the caveat. God help this guy if he plays the Layton crossover, he won't be able to reconcile it.

edit: Also as others have said, Japanese courts
 

Jomjom

Banned
Living that bumbling PW life right now. Luckily i do have a good mentor but he doesn't have a great rack.
 

Shengar

Member
Probably helps that PW isn't based off of western judicial systems.

Isn't PW an allegory for Japan's broken justice system?
Yep it is. Gyakuten Saiban supposed to be satirizing the judicial system in Japan where most guilty verdict got from confessio.
 

Pachimari

Member
Funny how I thought about buying the Trilogy yesterday. If I buy that and Dual Destinies is the only one I'll be missing the 4th installment? And is that one only out for DS?
 

Overside

Banned
Booooo!!!! Author took all the fun out of discussion by completely covering why things were done the way they were in the game!

Interesting read though, thanks.
 

Puflwiz

Banned
It's surprising how few people know about that though, who watches CSPAN?

Also if you are a good boy and also one of the weird 'outliers' and never get called for jury duty.... you probably don't see much court room action outside of tv.

How do people... not know?

tumblr_m0305eRyPY1rq14m7o1_500.jpg

tumblr_me92akWqIB1r36qulo1_500.png
 

Sakura

Member
trials become exercises of proving a person's innocence, instead of proving their guilt.
I ain't no lawyer-type, but isn't that how things work in Japan? I know in America it is innocent till proven guilty, but the game isn't really set in America. I thought I read somewhere the successful conviction rate in Japan is like crazy high, and people only get taken to court if they are sure they can get a conviction.
 

El Sloth

Banned
Good read, but I'm disappointed the author decided to omit things he'd like to say because of spoiler reasons. Come on. These games have been out for years already. So ridiculous.

Put a spoiler warning at the top and be done with it. Getting real tired of "spoiler culture".
 

Puflwiz

Banned
I ain't no lawyer-type, but isn't that how things work in Japan? I know in America it is innocent till proven guilty, but the game isn't really set in America. I thought I read somewhere the successful conviction rate in Japan is like crazy high, and people only get taken to court if they are sure they can get a conviction.

No the game is set in LA
 

Regulus Tera

Romanes Eunt Domus
I heard something years ago about how like over ninety percent of defendants are found guilty in Japanese courts, so Ace Attorneys's ridiculousness doesn't sound that unrealistic.


Edit: oh so he actually mentions this
 
I feel like a ton of people in this thread didn't go ahead and read the article. Literally half of it is dedicated to examining the Japanese court system and how many of the supposed inaccuracies are due to the differences between theirs and the West's. And describing the writer as "incensed" is pretty far away from the tone of the actual article. NeoGaf.gif I suppose

Also it's written by a women, and literally everyone here is saying "he". Just saying ;P

The ending is great. I'm glad that Phoenix is relate-able for someone like her. I'm looking forward to the future articles. And as an earlier poster said, I wish she wouldn't be so weary of spoilers.
 
As a trial attorney myself I still find the game relaxing and fun, even if it is not an accurate portrayal of even American law. Honestly if it was a more accurate portrayal I would avoid it because I get enough of that stuff already. Trust me, trial work is not as exciting as tv and movies like to portray.
 

Danny Dudekisser

I paid good money for this Dynex!
As someone who went to law school after getting into the Phoenix Wright series, I can confirm that actual law is very disappointing.
 

Mr-Joker

Banned
No the game is set in LA
comic331_zps0e179cf7.png

Honestly I find that to be one of the most stupidest choice that Capcon made, the game is clearly set in Japan and to claim otherwise is just insulting my intelligence.

It's exactly the same crap that 4Kids used to pull.
 

Dez_

Member
Interesting read. I know this was never supposed to be accurate or anything, but this is the first time I've actually heard of Japanese courts with high conviction rates. Pretty surprising to me. The more you know.
 

Peltz

Member
As a newly admitted lawyer, I have no desire to try Phoenix Wright. I can't imagine that such a game would provide me any sort of stimulation that compares to the real thing.
 

Griss

Member
Interesting article. The stuff on Japanese law was fascinating - that's a whole different world right there. I also agreed entirely on her take on PW himself - I love that guy.

As for my take - When I worked at a criminal law firm what really struck me was just how underprepared you often were - just like Mr. Nick himself. You have so many clients on free legal aid and most of the cases are so petty and small that often times you'd be lucky to put in an hour or two's research into each of them. You'd go through about 5/6 in a morning in court on a Thursday morning and again on a Friday, and these could be things you'd only just had land on your desk on Tuesday for clients you then interviewed on Wednesday. I mean, the cases themselves would only take 15 minutes to hear in court, if that. Small stuff. Sometimes you'd be handed a case by a colleague in court on the day of the trial and given a minor overview and told to work it, I kid you not. You might even have to ask the judge to put the case back in the list while you furiously read the file right there in court and then introduce yourself to the client right before they take the stand. It's a bit insane, to be honest, but the amount of cases dictates that it must be so.

The balancing factor is that criminal law is so simple that these petty cases often don't need even that amount of time to prepare (one or two hours, that is). And once you know the ins and outs of the vast majority of offences you're likely to see in a District or Circuit Court (drug offences, assault, etc) then it takes even less. The basic statutory provisions you rely on to get people off for each offence stay the same, the checks you do as to police procedure during arrest and detention stay the same, and the even info the client gives you in your interview at your office or under the courthouse tends to stay roughly the same, because people get in the same trouble again and again and again.

Then, on the other hand, a murder, rape or something similar (anything on indictment that could lead to 6+ months of jail, really) is a whole different ballgame and can potentially take years of work, where you sit down and research arcane points of law or comb through records handed over by telecoms companies in the most tedious manner for days in a row. Sad thing is that in the legal system I work in I would never be allowed to argue in front of a judge in a major case like this because our system essentially mandates specialist legal speakers to do that job for us once you reach the High Court. (Barristers.) That may change, but there's huge resistance to it among Barristers.

One thing that rung really true with Phoenix was the necessity of thinking on your feet in front of the judge while your heart is pounding. Public speaking is bad enough, but with someone's freedom on the line (no matter how temporarily) and in front of fellow lawyers from other firms (some of whom you may have been in law school with) and possibly your own boss you can't help but get that horrible tightness in your stomach as your argument gets derailed by a judge who just wants to focus on one little thing you don't see as crucial or a policeman who literally refuses to read out the evidence as it appears in their deposition or some other stupid bullshit.

One thing that Phoenix Wright doesn't get across is that the police typically HATE defence attorneys. We ruin their cases, drag them into court on a whim so they can wait for 6 hours to say 3 sentences when they could be doing proper work, allow people they are convinced are 'guilty' to go free... They're not fans. I doubt the Gumshoe / PW relationship would be that strong in real life, especially after Gumshoe gets humiliated on stand time and time again. (That part rings true, the part where they're still friends doesn't.)

And the biggest thing that grates with me about PW is how much investigation they do outside of court. This is not lawyers' work, and it tends to take up more and more time in each game. I get that it's fun, but it just bears no relation to the job description at all. He should be called 'Phoenix Wright - Detective, Solicitor, Barrister and Babysitter' because that's essentially what he is. Even worse is when PW knows the victim or is involved in the crime - this is the worst, because it's something that just never happens to a real lawyer and is a lazy way to spark an emotional connection with the fictional client. Meeting your client for the first time and piecing the facts together is the very basics of being a defence attorney, and this is lost when PW is put at the scene of the crime when it happens. Again, I guess most people wouldn't have a problem with this stuff.

Anyway, I didn't do the criminal law gig for very long, was heavily supervised, and have no intention of ever doing it again but it was a hell of an experience while it lasted. Far more interesting than drafting Rental Agency Agreements and Collateral Charges etc, but also more stressful and lower paying. Frankly the whole thing only made me enjoy PW and its wacky legal system more. It's a great series.

As a newly admitted lawyer, I have no desire to try Phoenix Wright. I can't imagine that such a game would provide me any sort of stimulation that compares to the real thing.

It's not supposed to do any such thing. It's meant to entertain you and make you laugh, and it does a great job.
 
Honestly I find that to be one of the most stupidest choice that Capcon made, the game is clearly set in Japan and to claim otherwise is just insulting my intelligence.

It's exactly the same crap that 4Kids used to pull.

The problem is that many of the trials and contradictions are dependant on the region the player is in such as time zones and car design.

It is a necessary sacrifice to ensure accessibility for the audience, not Americanizing it for the sake of Americanizing like 4Kids would.
 

Shengar

Member
Honestly I find that to be one of the most stupidest choice that Capcon made, the game is clearly set in Japan and to claim otherwise is just insulting my intelligence.

It's exactly the same crap that 4Kids used to pull.

Indeed? But the localization makes excellent job on making the pun and the jokes. They wouldn't be able to pull the same weight if the game still take place in Japan. What I did is to enjoy the story and the joke as it is, but always treat the character as Japanese.
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
As a newly admitted lawyer, I have no desire to try Phoenix Wright. I can't imagine that such a game would provide me any sort of stimulation that compares to the real thing.

That's your prerogative, but this logic would hold for the dramatization of any other jobs out there. Looking at your avatar, it'd be like an infantry soldier saying they have no desire to play Metal Slug because they find more stimulation in the real thing.

As someone who isn't a lawyer, there are very few things I care about concerning the liberties the Ace Attorney series takes with its approach to law. Grounding it more would possibly destroy most things I like about the series, and the same probably goes for most of its fans.
 

Peltz

Member
That's your prerogative, but this logic would hold for the dramatization of any other jobs out there. Looking at your avatar, it'd be like an infantry soldier saying they have no desire to play Metal Slug because they find more stimulation in the real thing.

As someone who isn't a lawyer, there are very few things I care about concerning the liberties the Ace Attorney series takes with its approach to law. Grounding it more would possibly destroy most things I like about the series, and the same probably goes for most of its fans.

That makes sense.
 

xzeldax3

Member
Interesting article. I always enjoy reading about people's experiences with games when they are familiar with the subject matter that they are based on.
 
Great article. Looking forward to reading more in the future. I'm gonna go buy the remakes on 3ds tonight. I've always wanted to play them and this seems like a good time to get in.
 

Corgi

Banned
Interesting article. The stuff on Japanese law was fascinating - that's a whole different world right there. I also agreed entirely on her take on PW himself - I love that guy.

As for my take - When I worked at a criminal law firm what really struck me was just how underprepared you often were - just like Mr. Nick himself. You have so many clients on free legal aid and most of the cases are so petty and small that often times you'd be lucky to put in an hour or two's research into each of them. You'd go through about 5/6 in a morning in court on a Thursday morning and again on a Friday, and these could be things you'd only just had land on your desk on Tuesday for clients you then interviewed on Wednesday. I mean, the cases themselves would only take 15 minutes to hear in court, if that. Small stuff. Sometimes you'd be handed a case by a colleague in court on the day of the trial and given a minor overview and told to work it, I kid you not. You might even have to ask the judge to put the case back in the list while you furiously read the file right there in court and then introduce yourself to the client right before they take the stand. It's a bit insane, to be honest, but the amount of cases dictates that it must be so.

The balancing factor is that criminal law is so simple that these petty cases often don't need even that amount of time to prepare (one or two hours, that is). And once you know the ins and outs of the vast majority of offences you're likely to see in a District or Circuit Court (drug offences, assault, etc) then it takes even less. The basic statutory provisions you rely on to get people off for each offence stay the same, the checks you do as to police procedure during arrest and detention stay the same, and the even info the client gives you in your interview at your office or under the courthouse tends to stay roughly the same, because people get in the same trouble again and again and again.

Then, on the other hand, a murder, rape or something similar (anything on indictment that could lead to 6+ months of jail, really) is a whole different ballgame and can potentially take years of work, where you sit down and research arcane points of law or comb through records handed over by telecoms companies in the most tedious manner for days in a row. Sad thing is that in the legal system I work in I would never be allowed to argue in front of a judge in a major case like this because our system essentially mandates specialist legal speakers to do that job for us once you reach the High Court. (Barristers.) That may change, but there's huge resistance to it among Barristers.

One thing that rung really true with Phoenix was the necessity of thinking on your feet in front of the judge while your heart is pounding. Public speaking is bad enough, but with someone's freedom on the line (no matter how temporarily) and in front of fellow lawyers from other firms (some of whom you may have been in law school with) and possibly your own boss you can't help but get that horrible tightness in your stomach as your argument gets derailed by a judge who just wants to focus on one little thing you don't see as crucial or a policeman who literally refuses to read out the evidence as it appears in their deposition or some other stupid bullshit.

One thing that Phoenix Wright doesn't get across is that the police typically HATE defence attorneys. We ruin their cases, drag them into court on a whim so they can wait for 6 hours to say 3 sentences when they could be doing proper work, allow people they are convinced are 'guilty' to go free... They're not fans. I doubt the Gumshoe / PW relationship would be that strong in real life, especially after Gumshoe gets humiliated on stand time and time again. (That part rings true, the part where they're still friends doesn't.)

And the biggest thing that grates with me about PW is how much investigation they do outside of court. This is not lawyers' work, and it tends to take up more and more time in each game. I get that it's fun, but it just bears no relation to the job description at all. He should be called 'Phoenix Wright - Detective, Solicitor, Barrister and Babysitter' because that's essentially what he is. Even worse is when PW knows the victim or is involved in the crime - this is the worst, because it's something that just never happens to a real lawyer and is a lazy way to spark an emotional connection with the fictional client. Meeting your client for the first time and piecing the facts together is the very basics of being a defence attorney, and this is lost when PW is put at the scene of the crime when it happens. Again, I guess most people wouldn't have a problem with this stuff.

Anyway, I didn't do the criminal law gig for very long, was heavily supervised, and have no intention of ever doing it again but it was a hell of an experience while it lasted. Far more interesting than drafting Rental Agency Agreements and Collateral Charges etc, but also more stressful and lower paying. Frankly the whole thing only made me enjoy PW and its wacky legal system more. It's a great series.

It's not supposed to do any such thing. It's meant to entertain you and make you laugh, and it does a great job.

great post!

if you think about it, if gumshoe wasn't such a big soft dummy, I doubt phoenix would have gotten away with most of the investigating stuff.
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
great post!

if you think about it, if gumshoe wasn't such a big soft dummy, I doubt phoenix would have gotten away with most of the investigating stuff.

Well, there's also Ema Skye, Tyrell Badd, and Bobby Fulbright to consider, who also let the defense attorneys pretty much run wild (the two last ones have their reasons for it, though).

A police detective who truly despises the presence of the defense attorneys would be an interesting dynamic.
 

Corgi

Banned
Well, there's also Ema Skye, Tyrell Badd, and Bobby Fulbright to consider, who also let the defense attorneys pretty much run wild (the two last ones have their reasons for it, though).

A police detective who truly despises the presence of the defense attorneys would be an interesting dynamic.

yeah, funny enough most of the time the conflict with the police is with Edgeworth!
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
My friend didnt like it

its not realistic

she said they tamper with evidence in the game lol

It happens, and it's also portrayed as a big deal.

This obsession with realism sure is something, especially when we're talking about a lawyer game. I'd be impressed if your friend actually had fun with playing a realistic attorney simulator. Personally, I think that sounds boring as hell.
 
I have a friend in law school that couldn't get into the series

I suppose it's fair, she's into trauma centre while I'm not
 
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