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[kmag]

Wheee lunchtime

Oh of course there are other issues, and I still stand by my point that uncontrolled immigration puts too much strain on public services, and that is also a factor for me in voting for brexit.

I heard and somewhat understand the counter argument that I should focus these particular frustrations on the politicians, Who are not reinvesting the money immigrants pay into our economy back into these services. But I think the issue is more the speed at which demand is increasing, and controlled immigration would allow for controlled growth. So I'm not anti immigration, just want them to cap it to a reasonable level, especially with all the mass movement of folks happening at the moment

Anyhow, my concern is still about democracy and accountability.

Nobody ever asks what I'd want the EU to do, to change my mind. But I'd happily change my stance if the EU were properly audited, only created international laws regarding trade, and ruled out ever creating a new joint military.

They are fucking properly audited. It's a fucking tabloid myth that they aren't. There's a percentage of error (3.8% at last count) in the accounts mainly due to the fact a large proportion of the money is handed to the member governments to spend

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36276175

Honest to fuck.

And most of the things you dislike about the EU are pretty integral to the good things about it. A Single Market wouldn't work without some central body setting rules, and the most democratic way of doing that is a parliament and executive. If capital, services and goods can freely move, then labour must be able to also do so to counteract capital flight (and to allow delivery of services), it's not some hippy happy clappy dogma, there's pretty defined economy rationale behind it.

btw the 'EU' military is by and large a joint procurement exercise, not that you'd know that from reading the UK press. The UK was largely prissy about it because BAE's tat doesn't sell well and would have been pretty much cut out.

 

[keep]

I did, for years, but they did fuck all about any of these problems. If we had half decent MEPs who actually reflected how 50÷ of us felt, we probably wouldn't be in this mess.

You have a problem with British politicians doing fuck all for you, not with the EU as an institution. I suggest you leave Britain.

 

[Plum]

I did, for years, but they did fuck all about any of these problems. If we had half decent MEPs who actually reflected how 50÷ of us felt, we probably wouldn't be in this mess.

You voted for MEPs who tell you that they're not going to anything and then complain that the MEPs you voted for aren't doing anything.

So, in response to the MEPs you voted for doing exactly what you voted them in to do you go after the EU in its entirety so we can't do anything at all and are forced to play by their rules.

Seriously, where is the logic here?

 

[PJV3]

Wheee lunchtime

Oh of course there are other issues, and I still stand by my point that uncontrolled immigration puts too much strain on public services, and that is also a factor for me in voting for brexit.

I heard and somewhat understand the counter argument that I should focus these particular frustrations on the politicians, Who are not reinvesting the money immigrants pay into our economy back into these services. But I think the issue is more the speed at which demand is increasing, and controlled immigration would allow for controlled growth. So I'm not anti immigration, just want them to cap it to a reasonable level, especially with all the mass movement of folks happening at the moment

Anyhow, my concern is still about democracy and accountability.

Nobody ever asks what I'd want the EU to do, to change my mind. But I'd happily change my stance if the EU were properly audited, only created international laws regarding trade, and ruled out ever creating a new joint military.

It seems odd to thirst for sovereignty and then box yourself in with a ban on law making across borders.

I think the idea of a vari-speed European area is much more sensible and we would probably have got something along those lines within a few years if we had stuck it out.

I'm left leaning so I put more worth in the stuff other than trade like the environment and transport.

 

[Mr. Sam]

As RoyalFool's posts neatly demonstrate, the history books are likely to look back and see the biggest casualty of five years of Conservative-imposed austerity as Britain's membership of the European Union. Because it was politically expedient, immigrants - who demonstrably contribute more to the economy than they remove - blamed for stagnant wages, struggling public services, and an economy lurching back to its feet excruciatingly slowly. Now we deal with the consequences (i.e. probably a much more acute case of those three things).

 

[KarneeKarnay]

I have been told this repeatedly (even by my mother-in-law!) and it invariably pisses me off even more. What constitutes a 'good one'?? One that 'doesn't steal'? What's 'stealing'? What would happen if a BRITISH CAR ran over me tomorrow and left me incapacitated for my whole life and dependant on BRITISH BENEFITS? Would I become a 'bad one'? It's so insulting and narrow minded.

My wife goes through this at least once a month. She looks European, but her accent is pretty much spot on English.

She'll be chatting with people at work, they'll bring up Brexit and then be completely shocked by her being Portuguese. Then they bring out this brilliant line of her being one of the good ones and I want to smack them.

The one that makes the least sense to me. My brother in law married my wife sister. He voted leave.

HIS WIFE IS PORTUGUESE. WHAT IN THE FUCK

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

My wife goes through this at least once a month. She looks European, but her accent is pretty much spot on English.

She'll be chatting with people at work, they'll bring up Brexit and then be completely shocked by her being Portuguese. Then they bring out this brilliant line of her being one of the good ones and I want to smack them.

The one that makes the least sense to me. My brother in law married my wife sister. He voted leave.

HIS WIFE IS PORTUGUESE. WHAT IN THE FUCK

I have a friend who is an immigrant and voted leave.

Tried talking about it with her and she was all "I don't want to talk about politics"

She's got her visa/residency permit/whatever so she doesn't give a fuck, it still makes no sense to me.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

Wheee lunchtime

Oh of course there are other issues, and I still stand by my point that uncontrolled immigration puts too much strain on public services, and that is also a factor for me in voting for brexit.

I heard and somewhat understand the counter argument that I should focus these particular frustrations on the politicians, Who are not reinvesting the money immigrants pay into our economy back into these services. But I think the issue is more the speed at which demand is increasing, and controlled immigration would allow for controlled growth. So I'm not anti immigration, just want them to cap it to a reasonable level, especially with all the mass movement of folks happening at the moment

Anyhow, my concern is still about democracy and accountability.

Nobody ever asks what I'd want the EU to do, to change my mind. But I'd happily change my stance if the EU were properly audited, only created international laws regarding trade, and ruled out ever creating a new joint military.

You're sure it's nothing to do with wanting to ban Islam because it's not compatible with western society or wanting to limit the movement or muslims in the world because the "mass movement of folks" could bring a lot of Islam into the UK?

I mean just look at this shit:

We MUST control our borders!!!!

Its already so far out of hand that we end up with a Muslim mayor of London? Because if you look at the demographics in London schools, technically Islam is taking over. It's no wonder the London Mayor is now Muslim. If were brutally honest, there literally isnt any other reason that a muslim person could be mayor of London. The numbers don't lie.

And to make it worse, you never even see or hear the silent majority of muslims ever come out and condemn terrorist attacks done in their name.

When was the last time anyone saw muslims queuing up to donate blood after a terrorist attack or fly flags atop their mosques so we can all be sure theyre not silently in favour? It's pretty scary that the silent majority of muslims in the UK just don't do anything when these attacks happen.

I think you'll agree these are quite valid reasons. Surely much more fleshed out, understandable and much more weighted in conviction than simple statements about sovereignty and such that you barely seem to be able to discuss or defend at any length?



Just incase anyone doesn't realise, these are all views RoyalFool has previously espoused and amalgamated into one post.

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

Brexit - an absolute dereliction of duty by MPs to do their job.

 

[theaface]

From the CEO of Goldman Sachs, during the Brexit summit where May is calling on the EU to be "ambitious"...

Just left Frankfurt. Great meetings, great weather, really enjoyed it. Good, because I'll be spending a lot more time there. #Brexit

 

[PJV3]

From the CEO of Goldman Sachs, during the Brexit summit where May is calling on the EU to be "ambitious"...

Should I be laughing as the boat goes down with me on it?

 

[KingSnake]

From the CEO of Goldman Sachs, during the Brexit summit where May is calling on the EU to be "ambitious"...

Good banter.

 

[Uzzy]

From the CEO of Goldman Sachs, during the Brexit summit where May is calling on the EU to be "ambitious"...

Reading some of the replies is a good way to lose braincells. Apparently the EU is a failing neoliberal marxist state and the UK is the lifeboat! Who knew.

I expect we'll see a lot more movement very soon, especially if we hit December and there still isn't movement to the second phase of talks. Giving nurses an actual real terms pay raise, though, that's the real threat to the British economy.

 

[Morat]

Just an aside, but there are people in the Catalonia thread saying Brexit is fine and that Catalonia shouldn't be worried about the possibility of leaving Europe. As a Brit who spent his formative years in the Balearics, I'm not sure whether to laugh or scream.

 

[keep]

Just an aside, but there are people in the Catalonia thread saying Brexit is fine and that Catalonia shouldn't be worried about the possibility of leaving Europe. As a Brit who spent his formative years in the Balearics, I'm not sure whether to laugh or scream.

I saw that too. Absolute bonkers. Indepes are as swayed as Brexiteers. Who needs experts when we have feelings!

 

[jelly]

From the CEO of Goldman Sachs, during the Brexit summit where May is calling on the EU to be "ambitious"...

Is that contingency plan is now the plan...

I remember another quote from last month from another CEO, something like, we made our views very very strongly to the government.

Still find it odd the government would ignore their bread and butter industry.

 

[mehrmantrout]

In a way I want everyone to leave and the country to burn

 

[KDR_11k]

I like how a second referendum would be "re-running it until we vote the right way" but May called for an early election precisely to get a result she wants.

 

[NekoFever]

Reading some of the replies is a good way to lose braincells. Apparently the EU is a failing neoliberal marxist state and the UK is the lifeboat! Who knew.

It's like all those jokes about Obama being an atheist Muslim. Except not a joke.

 

[CrunchyB]

Just an aside, but there are people in the Catalonia thread saying Brexit is fine and that Catalonia shouldn't be worried about the possibility of leaving Europe. As a Brit who spent his formative years in the Balearics, I'm not sure whether to laugh or scream.

They at least have legitimate grievances with the Spanish government, unlike the UK which has a sweet deal with the EU.

But other than that Catalan independence is just as stupid as Brexit. Both are run by dangerously inept politicians.

 

[Maledict]

Is that contingency plan is now the plan...

I remember another quote from last month from another CEO, something like, we made our views very very strongly to the government.

Still find it odd the government would ignore their bread and butter industry.

Because as much as they like their money, they don’t bring votes. And votes are what brings power. Money is only useful to buy / persuade voters, and that already failed once in the original referendum.

 

[pswii60]

Corbyn is going to cement his leader in waiting position today

Corbyn - the guy who couldn't even win an election against Maybot?

It's like losing in a race against Johnny Vegas, but then convincing yourself (and those around you) that you still came first just because you were only a few meters behind him at the finish line.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Corbyn - the guy who couldn't even win an election against Maybot?

It's like losing in a race against Johnny Vegas, but then convincing yourself (and those around you) that you still came first just because you were only a few meters behind him at the finish line.

This is revisionist history. May is considered as weak as she is because she performed so poorly at that election, not the other way around.

That is if you think May is weak because she could barely beat Corbyn, and you think Corbyn is weak because he can't beat May, you have thought precisely nothing. The election was on her terms and called by her. I'm not saying that British politics is blessed with front bench talent, but Corbyn did pretty well at that election.

 

[pswii60]

This is revisionist history. May is considered as weak as she is because she performed so poorly at that election, not the other way around.

Yes, she performed so poorly at that election, because she performed so poorly at that campaign. Where were you? This isn't revisionist history, she was terrible and we were all discussing just how terrible she was at that time. "Maybot" isn't a term that was invented after the election, you know.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Yes, she performed so poorly at that election, because she performed so poorly at that campaign. Where were you? This isn't revisionist history, she was terrible and we were all discussing just how terrible she was at that time. "Maybot" isn't a term that was invested after the election, you know.

I understand that, May campaigned dreadfully. My point is that the campaign was called on her terms and the Tories were massive favourites to pick up a lot of seats at that point. It's revisionist history to have it as running against Johnny Vegas unless Johnny Vegas is a massive favourite when he decides to race you.

 

[pswii60]

I understand that, May campaigned dreadfully. My point is that the campaign was called on her terms and the Tories were massive favourites to pick up a lot of seats at that point. It's revisionist history to have it as running against Johnny Vegas unless Johnny Vegas is a massive favourite when he decides to race you.

Well Johnny Vegas might be the favourite if it's only him and myself running. But it's still Johnny Vegas, that's my point.

In the end, Theresa May was utterly abysmal in her campaign (not revisionist history), regardless of whether she was favourite or not and regardless of whether she called the election or not - neither of those factors change the reality. Corbyn still failed to win against her.

We'll have to agree to disagree

Spoiler

as if that ever worked on the Internet

.

I'm just still really upset that we have to choose between the weakest leader of many years (including Brown) taking us on a Brexit quest she doesn't even herself believe in, and a deluded leader of the opposition who thinks everything can be solved by taxing and borrowing more and throwing money at things. I just wish that we'd see a new party come in to the picture to provide a real alternative - it's overdue.

 

[Veon]

Wait, do people actually believe that the immigration is the cause of public services being stretched?

 

[The Friendly Monster]

We'll have to agree to disagree

Spoiler

as if that ever worked on the Internet

.

I'm just still really upset that we have to choose between the weakest leader of many years (including Brown) taking us on a Brexit quest she doesn't even herself believe in, and a deluded leader of the opposition who thinks everything can be solved by taxing and borrowing more and throwing money at things. I just wish that we'd see a new party come in to the picture to provide a real alternative - it's overdue.

Well I actually agree with you on the whole. Corbyn is no solution to the political mess in the UK. I do think it's fair to call him the leader in waiting though, as unpleasant as that may be.

 

[PJV3]

Well I actually agree with you on the whole. Corbyn is no solution to the political mess in the UK. I do think it's fair to call him the leader in waiting though, as unpleasant as that may be.

Definitely, Corbyn can now openly say he will buy nukes and stick them in storage and win the election, it's a crazy world out there.

I'm not very sure I want him to with what he could be about to inherit, serves the Tories right for wanting it all.

 

[jelly]

Wait, do people actually believe that the immigration is the cause of public services being stretched?

Yes, Britain is a tiny island and can't take any more foreigners. It's totally not poor investment, austerity and incompetence by the UK government. People find it easier to blame others and for some bizarre reason not the government. We are going to wake up one day as the 51st state with private healthcare, terrible working conditions but at least we have jam, that is when the fruit picks itself.

 

[jelly]

Well I actually agree with you on the whole. Corbyn is no solution to the political mess in the UK. I do think it's fair to call him the leader in waiting though, as unpleasant as that may be.

Depends if the Tories take their full five years and don't get someone people like during that. Corbyn is in no way guaranteed unless the Tories want to dump Brexit fallout on him while they pick up the pieces years later.

 

[Sarcastic Poster]

Reading some of the replies is a good way to lose braincells. Apparently the EU is a failing neoliberal marxist state and the UK is the lifeboat! Who knew.

I expect we'll see a lot more movement very soon, especially if we hit December and there still isn't movement to the second phase of talks. Giving nurses an actual real terms pay raise, though, that's the real threat to the British economy.

The EU is definitely neoliberal.

 

[PdotMichael]

Just an aside, but there are people in the Catalonia thread saying Brexit is fine and that Catalonia shouldn't be worried about the possibility of leaving Europe. As a Brit who spent his formative years in the Balearics, I'm not sure whether to laugh or scream.

Too many people there who drank the kool aid.

 

[Principate]

Depends if the Tories take their full five years and don't get someone people like during that. Corbyn is in no way guaranteed unless the Tories want to dump Brexit fallout on him while they pick up the pieces years later.

Well Tory policy's are back-firing and their chickens are coming come to roost so i think we can avoid that future unless Corbyn screws up his inevitable stint as PM. Best case scenario in 10 years the uk will be complaining that benefits thieves are getting paid too much again as well as too high immigration and we'll go through this sorta stuff again.

 

[tuxfool]

Reading some of the replies is a good way to lose braincells. Apparently the EU is a failing neoliberal marxist state and the UK is the lifeboat! Who knew.

I expect we'll see a lot more movement very soon, especially if we hit December and there still isn't movement to the second phase of talks. Giving nurses an actual real terms pay raise, though, that's the real threat to the British economy.

"neoliberal marxist state".

I'm trying to formulate what economic policy such a state would advocate. Struggling.

 

[*Splinter]

Does neoliberal mean anything yet? Last time I checked it was just "people I disagree with"

 

[Xando]

Does neoliberal mean anything yet? Last time I checked it was just "people I disagree with"

As far as GAF goes that’s pretty much the definition

From the CEO of Goldman Sachs, during the Brexit summit where May is calling on the EU to be "ambitious"...

Rats are jumping ship.

As a german taxpayer i should thank brexiteers for bringing us more tax revenue for our healthcare.

 

[PJV3]

As far as GAF goes that’s pretty much the definition

Rats are jumping ship.

As a german taxpayer i should thank brexiteers for bringing us more tax revenue for our healthcare.

You're getting the money one way or the other, it looks like we're going to do it the hard way.

 

[Crispy75]

Does neoliberal mean anything yet? Last time I checked it was just "people I disagree with"

The wiki definition is pretty much spot on

Neoliberalism or neo-liberalism[1] refers primarily to the 20th-century resurgence of 19th-century ideas associated with laissez-faire economic liberalism.[2]:7 Such ideas include economic liberalization policies such as privatization, austerity, deregulation, free trade,[3] and reductions in government spending in order to increase the role of the private sector in the economy and society.[11] These market-based ideas and the policies they inspired constitute a paradigm shift away from the post-war Keynesian consensus which lasted from 1945 to 1980.[12][13]

 

[Huw_Dawson]

"neoliberal marxist state".

I'm trying to formulate what economic policy such a state would advocate. Struggling.

China

 

[tuxfool]

China

I have to ask what part of china is marxist? What part is neoliberal?

 

[jelly]

The wiki definition is pretty much spot on

Is that what it means. You could label every government those things. It's a bollocks label then?.

 

[Mivey]

I have to ask what part of china is marxist? What part is neoliberal?

Ideologically Marxist, economically capitalist. Except they don't really have a "free" market, it's controlled quite heavily, especially from international influence. Within China most of commerce is handled by huge corporations with close ties to Party leadership.
Yet they somehow think of themselves as communist, with clear connections to Marx (through Mao and others).

 

[jmvmadeira]

My wife goes through this at least once a month. She looks European, but her accent is pretty much spot on English.

She'll be chatting with people at work, they'll bring up Brexit and then be completely shocked by her being Portuguese. Then they bring out this brilliant line of her being one of the good ones and I want to smack them.

The one that makes the least sense to me. My brother in law married my wife sister. He voted leave.

HIS WIFE IS PORTUGUESE. WHAT IN THE FUCK

Dont be surprised. Im Portuguese my wife is British, we live in England.. My brother in law lives in Australia. My sister in law voted leave, and yes, im one of the good ones according to her. My brother in law take on the british goverment in general is just one long "fuck the goverment". It makes for some ackward sunday lunch discussions. At this point i dont even engage on any Brexit discussions.
Unfortunately, the issue if immigration is also discussed in Portugal, and having to listen to my Portuguese brother in law moaning about immigrants is both deppressing ans soul cruching, with me having to point out that im also an immigrant. Moaning about immigrants on a nation like Portugal, were we have millions of our own nationals immigrated is the epitome of hypocrisy

 

[CharmingCharlie]

As a german taxpayer i should thank brexiteers for bringing us more tax revenue for our healthcare.

Ha Ha Ha Ha seriously you really think Goldmans and Sachs is gonna pay taxes ..... ah that was a good joke.

 

[oilvomer]

Wait, do people actually believe that the immigration is the cause of public services being stretched?

You better believe it, George Osbourne was able to go on an 8 year rampage of cuts by blaming a set of curtains, or to be more precise the people behind the curtains...

Fuck em right! if I am up at 7am and those lazy fuck tards are still in bed, cut their benefits... He got people to turn on those on benefits with a master stroke by using curtains as his weapon...

you better believe, they can blame immigrants for all our woes, oh and the Lib Dems stood by and watched, so you can ignore pretty much all of their bullshit now... power corrupts and they grabbed it with all their might, those ministerial cars are lovely though right!

 

[Crispy75]

Is that what it means. You could label every government those things. It's a bollocks label then?.

1000 years ago you could call pretty much every government "monarchist". Doesn't make it a useless label.

 

[anonymous_abc]

.

 

[Hazzuh]

RE immigrants views on immigration: The longer they have been here the more negative they become, with a majority of immigrants who have lived in the UK feeling negatively

Also, Britain is much more positive about immigration than the average country

 

[tuxfool]

Ha Ha Ha Ha seriously you really think Goldmans and Sachs is gonna pay taxes ..... ah that was a good joke.

Eh, they might not pay enough, but they do pay some. The network effects can also be desirable.