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[Rosur]

I do hope this forces MS/ Sony to stop bad games come out or implement some kind of refund system.

 

[Newtype-001]

Nice.

 

[SirJackDaniels]

If a European buy a from a US based company, are they still entitled to the refund?

As said it depends on where the product is bought.

Bricks & Mortar Retail US > UK consumer : Obvious NO
e-commerce US > UK Consumer: YES. Sale is being made in the EU. Previously the sale was based where the server was located however the locale of the Consumer is now leading.
This applies to Retail and Physical goods bought from NON EU Companies.

Basically what now happens is that US PSN/XBL are obligated to refund customers or else they are in breach with the law.
A very good development which will hopefully be implemented EU wide.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

It says in the law.

Faulty is one or more of a) insufficient quality, b) not fit for purpose, c) not as described.

Driveclub at launch with its broken servers was not fit for purpose.

Unity was of insufficient quality due to the bugs.

The law states: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34403005

Yes, but these are still very vague requirements. Who and what defines the "reasonable" line for "insufficient quality" here? What's the difference between a game with an acceptable amount of server disconnects and a "reasonably" amount? These kinds of distinctions are easy to make for physical goods (i.e. this chair wobbles noticeably, this disc drive jams, etc.) but I'm not seeing a lot of easily definable lines here. The transition point between "sufficient" and "insufficient" quality for a game is pretty damn blurry.

 

[Memorabilia]

Why doesn't stuff like this exist in the US?

Because the US government is quite literally owned by large corporations. Lock, stock, and barrel. Best case: the US essentially has legalized bribery (aka lobbying) which completely subverts any possible representative govt. Worst case: Fascism is on our doorstep. In other words, the US govt only pretends to listen to the people and does what its told to do. I should think by now this fact is fairly obvious.

 

[Vanguard]

This is the same for the whole of Europe, it's a really terrible practice and I don't understand why this is allowed by the EU.

Pretty much.

In the UK eShop you have to click a button that says something like you waive your right to a refund. They'll probably pull the same crap here.

It's allowed by the EU because it's written into the damn law itself, it's incredibly stupid. In the law it states that if you agree to immediate access to the digital content (which all of the stores by sony/ms/nintendo/amazon etc have) and skip the 14 day cooling off period then you waive the right to a refund. It's in the law itself, it's so bad. This UK law will override that and they're not going to able to argue against it, if the game is broken and they were not able to repair/replace it for you.



As for this new UK law, this site explains some stuff about it better that some people may have missed, I don't know, I just found it clearer: http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/ne...-to-know?_ga=1.96634015.1041415437.1428760519 (Btw UK people, just in case you missed it, it's replacing the sales of good act etc)

Two bits are quite specific that I want to point out:

There's no 'refund within 30 days rule' for digital content. Instead, you have a right to a repair or replacement when something goes wrong, or a refund if these remedies don't work the first time. This covers things like computer games, films, downloaded music, ebooks or mobile phone apps.

So they get one chance to fix the fault or replace it, if those don't work the first time, you get a refund.

And:

The rules now apply worldwide. Traders based outside the UK but selling to UK consumers are expected to adhere to the Act (although in some cases it may be difficult to enforce).

The current laws only apply if the retailer is based in the UK or elsewhere in the EU – if you bought from outside the EU you're subject to the laws of that country.

That's a good one! But as they say, this might be a bugger to enforce it :\

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

Friday for the UK Just in time.

Ha, misread the releases and assumed it was out yesterday!

 

[Teeth]

A game advertising amazing graphics but actually looks like minecraft can be considered not as described.

I suppose mechanics can play a part, if you buy a fighting game for full price and the mechanics suck so much that it does not play correctly then satisfactory quality would probably come into it.

Prove these.

I defy you to prove that Minecraft's graphics aren't "amazing" or that a fighting game's mechanics "suck".

 

[Sjefen]

Giving the power to the consumer is always a good thing. Here in Norway we have a very good consumer law, for example my Iphone and PS4 have 5 years "warranty"(dont know the translation)

 

[Maximo]

So many 'Ifs" and "buts" doesn't surprise me that some people in the gaming industry are so used to being hard done by companies they question a law to help them not get ripped off.

 

[Industrialist]

Going by EU law of being able to return any good/service (few exception like hotel bookings) within 14 days for any reason (if you simply do not want it any more, it's a valid reason), it'll probably not be abused.

There's a reason that GAME in the UK don't offer their 30-day "no quibble" refund anymore.

Essentially, it could be used as a rental service. There were days when I worked there, where we processed more exchanges/refunds than sales. Folks literally playing every new release in a week, entirely for free.

It may not be abused in the EU, but in the UK it will 100% be abused. The word "entitled" and the phrases "I know my rights" and "I'll report you to Watchdog" come up a lot here, generally from those who don't know their rights, aren't entitled to anything, and don't know the phone number for Watchdog.

Prove these.

I defy you to prove that Minecraft's graphics aren't "amazing" or that a fighting game's mechanics "suck".

This.

You can't use things that are entirely up to the individual player's preference as a reason for something being "broken." Look at the Assassin's Creed fanboys/girls who think that AC Unity is the greatest thing ever and oh my god Arno and Elise are the best couple in all of gaming and it's majestic and I don't mind if all my progress is lost due to a bug as it just means I get to enjoy it again and again and again.

 

[Garibaldi]

I wonder how this will affect Early Access products.

 

[Tak3n]

Where have you read this? I still see the option to get a replacement here:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...ts-under-a-goods-contract-are-not-met/enacted

here it is

after 30 days, retailers have one opportunity to repair or replace any goods

FYI this goes completely at odds with Argos who has a policy of they only replace after 3 repair attempts, so remember that if you get a dispute with Argos

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-rights-for-consumers-when-buying-digital-content

 

[jediyoshi]

It says in the law.

Faulty is one or more of a) insufficient quality, b) not fit for purpose, c) not as described.

Driveclub at launch with its broken servers was not fit for purpose.

Unity was of insufficient quality due to the bugs.

Ironically your post is exactly making the point of the person you're quoting by not explicitly listing things you're qualifying as 'bugs' and instead just talking in broad generalizations. Try right now to write something even more ambiguous than 'insufficient quality'. What is a bug? In the eyes of a law, when is the exact point framerate is insufficient? Laws don't exist to act on when things feel like they're right or wrong.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Congrats, UK GAF.

Wish we had that here.

 

[Marlenus]

Prove these.

I defy you to prove that Minecraft's graphics aren't "amazing" or that a fighting game's mechanics "suck".

Amazing evokes a sense of wonder and wow factor. Minecraft's graphics don't so that, driveclub's do. The stuff made in minecraft is amazing though but that is not graphics.

A fighting game whose mechanics put in a half second delay between each button press and the on screen action suck. I don't think such a game exists but its a hypothetical.

 

[dose]

here it is

Err yeh, that backs up my argument, you said

it is not all gravy, after one month if you console goes faulty the company no longer has to replace or refund, they are now legally allowed to repair it first

So you said they no longer have to replace, but your link clearly states replace is an option.

after 30 days, retailers have one opportunity to repair or replace any goods

 

[Tak3n]

I think as always these things are so ambiguous, there are some examples where I feel this new law would of worked

Battlefield 4 (clearly broken and acknowledged by EA) Refund

MCC (clearly broken and acknowledged by 343) Refund

Now, the issue comes here that this 'could' potentially stop devs from admitting there is a issue, as that would imply refunds can be claimed en mass

 

[Tak3n]

Err yeh, that backs up my argument, you said

So you said they no longer have to replace, but your link clearly states replace is an option.

I thought that, it kind of reads at odds with each other, i presume it means you can overrule their right to repair? or if you agree they get one chance?

is that how you read it?

 

[Rudiano]

So Tony Hawks 5 is a buggy mess, but wouldnt we be able to get a refund on the game because of the fact that its pretty much unplayable without the day 1 patch? I mean without the internet you would be playing an un complete game

 

[leeh]

This is great news! I wonder if we come to see software refund requests, rather than contacting support on consoles?

So Tony Hawks 5 is a buggy mess, but wouldnt we be able to get a refund on the game because of the fact that its pretty much unplayable without the day 1 patch? I mean without the internet you would be playing an un complete game

Yup, exactly right. Although, if you're on Xbox, support are usually great with refunds and would do this usually anyway. I've done it a few times.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

As said it depends on where the product is bought.

Bricks & Mortar Retail US > UK consumer : Obvious NO
e-commerce US > UK Consumer: YES. Sale is being made in the EU. Previously the sale was based where the server was located however the locale of the Consumer is now leading.
This applies to Retail and Physical goods bought from NON EU Companies.

Basically what now happens is that US PSN/XBL are obligated to refund customers or else they are in breach with the law.
A very good development which will hopefully be implemented EU wide.

Yeah, I am wondering about digital titles. I wonder how some websites will adapt to this. Will they prevent digital sale to UK? Can they logically do that? That means the prevention of sale to UK would result in more losses, or does that mean sale to UK means more losses with refunds all the time.

EDIT: e.g. As a Canadian, if I am looking to provide digital sales to the world, how do you deal with this new law if you don't have means to provide digital game refunds that are Steam keys?

 

[Teeth]

Amazing evokes a sense of wonder and wow factor. Minecraft's graphics don't so that, driveclub's do. The stuff made in minecraft is amazing though but that is not graphics.

A fighting game whose mechanics put in a half second delay between each button press and the on screen action suck. I don't think such a game exists but its a hypothetical.

Neither of these things are proof.

Minecraft has the greatest graphics of a generation; they've spawned a multitude of plushies, toys, halloween costumes, stickers, etc. all based off of the blocky style, not the user creations therein. They are instantly recognizable and desired (based strictly on the iconography) by a larger subset of paying consumers than anything in Driveclub.

Ergo, Driveclub's "graphics" look like shit in comparison to Minecraft's.

You want to separate "graphics" vs. "art", we could go all day. This isn't provable in the least. We've had people on GAF say that Proteus has the best graphics of the year it came out. Giant Bomb had it as a runner up for "Best Looking Game" in their year end awards. You want to go tech? Minecraft is open world, with an enormous landscape running at a blazing 60fps without a hitch. Driveclub is ultra limited in scope and chugs at 30fps. Ergo, Minecraft has factually better graphics than Driveclub.

A half second delay in a hypothetical fighting game could be implemented to create a new layer of Yomi in users; basically, you have to pre-plan your attacks by judging how long a move you do takes to come out subtracted by the subset of move-timing windows of your opponent. It's like the RTS of fighting games.

Ergo, hypothetical fighting game has the greatest depth of any fighter ever created.

We've got Jackie Chan Fighter and Clayfighter being played for money matches at Evo. There's no such thing as factually/provably bad mechanics.

 

[dose]

I thought that, it kind of reads at odds with each other, i presume it means you can overrule their right to repair? or if you agree they get one chance?

is that how you read it?

Well, you can obviously ask for a replacement (unless, say it was something that was no longer made and they didn't have any more) so I would imagine the consumer has the choice unless one or the other is not possible.

 

[DryvBy]

nope. the consumer isn't always right.

Not in the least. People that think that haven't worked with the consumer. The consumer is typically Homer Simpson.

This is going to be abused by many.

 

[Tak3n]

Well, you can obviously ask for a replacement (unless, say it was something that was no longer made and they didn't have any more) so I would imagine the consumer has the choice unless one or the other is not possible.

So Argos for example, can they now refuse your replacement request if a product is 6 weeks old? and insist they repair it (one chance to repair) or can you now insist on a replacement/refund?

it is not clear who gets the final say

 

[Marlenus]

This.

You can't use things that are entirely up to the individual player's preference as a reason for something being "broken." Look at the Assassin's Creed fanboys/girls who think that AC Unity is the greatest thing ever and oh my god Arno and Elise are the best couple in all of gaming and it's majestic and I don't mind if all my progress is lost due to a bug as it just means I get to enjoy it again and again and again.

Ironically your post is exactly making the point of the person you're quoting by not explicitly listing things you're qualifying as 'bugs' and instead just talking in broad generalizations. Try right now to write something even more ambiguous than 'insufficient quality'. What is a bug? In the eyes of a law, when is the exact point framerate is insufficient? Laws don't exist to act on when things feel like they're right or wrong.

They do. Two people buy an expensive SDS drill, person A never uses it to its full extent and for their purposes it is fine. Peron B wants to use it on a regular basis but the first time they try and drill into masonry they find it is very slow going and nowhere near the standard one would expect for such an expensive SDS drill. Person B will be able to get a refund under the act as it is not fit for purpose. For person A however they never see that until they come to drill into masonry and to them it might be acceptible.

It happens all the time so why not apply it to games. Take driveclub, some people probably just wanted to play it offline and enjoy it as a single player racer. For those people the game at launch was fine despite the server issues.

 

[dose]

So Argos for example, can they now refuse your replacement request if a product is 6 weeks old? and insist they repair it (one chance to repair) or can you now insist on a replacement/refund?

it is not clear who gets the final say

It's a good question. I imagine the consumer has the choice. A quick Google brings this up...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...onsumer-Rights-Act-what-it-means-for-you.html

Currently retailers often offer to repair faulty items, but now you will be fully within your rights to ask for replacements.

I'll look some more.

Edit: Other places suggest the consumer makes the decision...
http://www.businesszone.co.uk/commu...ont-fall-foul-of-the-consumer-rights-act-2015

If there is a fault after the 30 day rejection window, the consumer can have a repair/replacement. The business has one opportunity to provide a conforming product.
Where a consumer prefers a repair/replacement, the time limit for a right to refund is paused until the goods are returned. If the item still doesn’t conform to the contract upon return, then the consumer’s right to reject is extended by a minimum of 7 days.

This is the clearest I can see...
http://united-kingdom.taylorwessing.com/fileadmin/files/docs/CRA15_Goods.pdf

the consumer may choose repair or replacement. The trader is not required to repair or replace if it
is impossible to do so or either remedy is disproportionate compared with the other.

So in other words, you would tell Argos what you want, and I imagine a replacement is the easiest option all round, unless they don't have any more in stock.

 

[SirJackDaniels]

Yeah, I am wondering about digital titles. I wonder how some websites will adapt to this. Will they prevent digital sale to UK? Can they logically do that? That means the prevention of sale to UK would result in more losses, or does that mean sale to UK means more losses with refunds all the time.

EDIT: e.g. As a Canadian, if I am looking to provide digital sales to the world, how do you deal with this new law if you don't have means to provide digital game refunds that are Steam keys?

Developers / Publishers who release on authorized channels like Steam, GOG, Origin etc. shouldn't have a problem as the digital key / license can be revoked / inactivated directly. The developer / publisher should get a refund kickback from the Sales Channels depending on the reason.

However this law is going to be a pain for websites like G2A and Kinguin. These are keys that can impossibly be revoked and cant be used again. The seller is not able to sell the key again and can not return to the publisher as a defect. They will have to take a loss. This is a new risk which can be viewed as "the cost of doing business".

In your case you could filter out UK consumers or eat up the loss. I'll get used to it as this will probably become the EU standard within a few years.

 

[Tak3n]

It's a good question. I imagine the consumer has the choice. A quick Google brings this up...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...onsumer-Rights-Act-what-it-means-for-you.html

I'll look some more.

Edit: Other places suggest the consumer makes the decision...
http://www.businesszone.co.uk/commu...ont-fall-foul-of-the-consumer-rights-act-2015

excellent thankyou

 

[Tak3n]

Developers / Publishers who release on authorized channels like Steam, GOG, Origin etc. shouldn't have a problem as the digital key / license can be revoked / inactivated directly. The developer / publisher should get a refund kickback from the Sales Channels depending on the reason.

However this law is going to be a pain for websites like G2A and Kinguin. These are keys that can impossibly be revoked and cant be used again. The seller is not able to sell the key again and can not return to the publisher as a defect. They will have to take a loss. This is a new risk which can be viewed as "the cost of doing business".

In your case you could filter out UK consumers or eat up the loss. I'll get used to it as this will probably become the EU standard within a few years.

it would not surprise me to see companies like that (key resellers) to actively stop IP address from UK from purchasing games, I guess they will see how it goes

the problem is there is no clear redress here, as lets says you email them and say under UK law this game is broken and I want a refund, lets say G2A refuse...

where do you go, you could contact the new ombudsman, and this say he sides with you, that does not automatically mean you get your money back.. G2A can still refuse, so they you are going down the chargeback route

 

[Tak3n]

Argos have updated their T+C's

it now states

We are sorry if your item is damaged or faulty, please return back to one of our stores or call our contact centre on 0345 640 0800 who will be happy to help"

worth nothing that in no way do they advise you off your new rights, be interesting to see if they mis-advise instore or on phone

 

[Caayn]

Good, good. Longer refund periods for products that are broken. Hopefully that will force devs and pubs into putting a bit more effort into their QA process.

 

[dose]

Argos have updated their T+C's

it now states



worth nothing that in no way do they advise you off your new rights, be interesting to see if they mis-advise instore or on phone

From my experience Argos staff (and pretty much all other stores) have no clue whatsoever about the Sale of Goods act and the consumer's rights, so I wouldn't hold my breath about them knowing about this either.

 

[Marlenus]

Neither of these things are proof.

Minecraft has the greatest graphics of a generation; they've spawned a multitude of plushies, toys, halloween costumes, stickers, etc. all based off of the blocky style, not the user creations therein. They are instantly recognizable and desired (based strictly on the iconography) by a larger subset of paying consumers than anything in Driveclub.

Ergo, Driveclub's "graphics" look like shit in comparison to Minecraft's.

You want to separate "graphics" vs. "art", we could go all day. This isn't provable in the least. We've had people on GAF say that Proteus has the best graphics of the year it came out. Giant Bomb had it as a runner up for "Best Looking Game" in their year end awards. You want to go tech? Minecraft is open world, with an enormous landscape running at a blazing 60fps without a hitch. Driveclub is ultra limited in scope and chugs at 30fps. Ergo, Minecraft has factually better graphics than Driveclub.

A half second delay in a hypothetical fighting game could be implemented to create a new layer of Yomi in users; basically, you have to pre-plan your attacks by judging how long a move you do takes to come out subtracted by the subset of move-timing windows of your opponent. It's like the RTS of fighting games.

Ergo, hypothetical fighting game has the greatest depth of any fighter ever created.

We've got Jackie Chan Fighter and Clayfighter being played for money matches at Evo. There's no such thing as factually/provably bad mechanics.

Hence the subjectivity. This is not one of those laws where there are set standards as everyone has different standards. If you showed a group of people a screenshot of hypothetical minecraft looking game and asked them if I it looked amazing a large portion would say no and hence the description would be very arguably false. Same with the fighting game.

 

[ShemhazaiX]

So, we're allowed to preorder now, right?

 

[darkinstinct]

Returning physical games would be a massive loss for retailers.

Retailers will blacklist people that return too many games. Those that abuse the system won't be able to do so for very long and if previous pro consumer action is any guideline not much will change. If anything publishers will delay UK releases for games they are aware are rushed and buggy.

 

[Sumio Mondo]

Good after the mess of the Master Chief Collection, I'm glad this is finally in effect now. There's been so many broken game releases in the past three years that it's good we've gotten there now.

 

[Vanguard]

Also just noticed here something else that came in with the law: http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/consumer-rights-refunds-exchange#digital

Compensation is available if the content damages your device

If you can show the faulty digital content has caused damage to your device or other digital content you’re also entitled to compensation for the damage caused, or to get the damaged item repaired.

This might be apply if, for example, a downloaded music track caused your MP3 player to play up, or an updated app deleted movie files from your mobile. Any repairs needs to be done in a reasonable time and compensation paid within 14 days.

All those EULA's (which were never enforceable anyway?) out there that say they're not responsible...
(The digital content would had to have been paid for though, but you can still try, covered under "It doesn’t cover free content, unless you paid for something else to get it" in the above link)

 

[Yagharek]

Returning physical games would be a massive loss for retailers.

Not when they return them to manufacturers. And if publishers get a reputation for being incompetent eg Bethesda and enough are returned then hopefully better quality control will become a more common part of the production process.

 

[Marlenus]

Not when they return them to manufacturers. And if publishers get a reputation for being incompetent eg Bethesda and enough are returned then hopefully better quality control will become a more common part of the production process.

This.

People forget that retailers can return stuff to their suppliers and so on till it gets back to the publisher.

 

[Decider]

Well GAME (and whoever else) should probably stop opening games when they get them in store.

Don't start. Some people will and have claimed the same thing about something that was sealed at the time of sale.

I was an assistant manager of a GAME for 4 years, and I'd take shitty customers all day long of it means better consumer rights.

I was working in games for HMV for three times as long, in Central London. Genuine games returns were not common.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

Pretty much.

In the UK eShop you have to click a button that says something like you waive your right to a refund. They'll probably pull the same crap here.

It doesn't matter. Terms of Service cannot override the law. All it will take is a strongly worded email and a threat to take legal action (and report their behaviour to consumer watchdogs) for them to issue refunds.

 

[Duster]

so previously a game/service deemed broken was not protected simply because it was digital? that's insane.

Nope. One of the main reasons many are/were against the "digital future".
http://www.theguardian.com/money/2010/dec/17/warning-digital-music-film-purchases

So this is a great move in the right direction.

While I'm no lawyer and obviously don't fully understand the new laws they still don't appear to go far enough to me.
Mostly due to the separating goods and services where they're increasingly linked. There should have been a minimum time a service should be available to protect against things like EA switching multi-player servers off early.

 

[fertygo]

Won't affect GOG, they've had a 30 day money back policy for faulty products for two years now.

And if you haven't downloaded the game (mistaken purchase etc), you can get a refund in the first 14 days without any questions.

Damn, I should do this for indie pinata thing.. waste of 3 dollar

 

[Molemitts]

This includes products which are misleading or use false advertising, which should be quite effective with things like early access on Steam. I'm interested to see the effect.

 

[In-Famous]

hmm so you can finish a game then return it?

No. Its to do with broken games and services

How about games like AC: Unity, broken / buggy can someone finish it then return it?

 

[Bold One]

Time for pubs to double down on their digital only future

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Damn, I should do this for indie pinata thing.. waste of 3 dollar

Yeah, I got a game I already own in the piñata, and they were happy to refund me for it.

 

[redcrayon]

Its a big step with regard to UK consumer law getting it's head around digital sales. Even if this doesn't work out perfectly, it shows that overseas companies can't just keep ignoring it forever, the law will get there eventually.

I'm glad the final decision lies with an ombudsman (who tend to be much more consumer-friendly) rather than the retailer, that's much fairer.